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* RM, John Lewis (Georgia politician) → John Lewis, '''Not moved''', 10 February 2017, [[Talk:John Lewis/Archive 1#Requested move 10 February 2017|<small>discussion</small>]]
* RM, John Lewis (Georgia politician) → John Lewis, '''Not moved''', 10 February 2017, [[Talk:John Lewis/Archive 1#Requested move 10 February 2017|<small>discussion</small>]]
* RM, John Lewis (civil rights leader) → John Lewis (U.S. politician), '''No consensus''', 27 February 2020, [[Talk:John Lewis#Requested move 27 February 2020|<small>discussion</small>]]
* RM, John Lewis (civil rights leader) → John Lewis (U.S. politician), '''No consensus''', 27 February 2020, [[Talk:John Lewis/Archive 1#Requested move 27 February 2020|<small>discussion</small>]]
* RM, John Lewis (civil rights leader) → John Lewis, '''Moved''', 27 July 2020, [[Talk:John Lewis#Requested move 27 July 2020|<small>discussion</small>]]
* RM, John Lewis (civil rights leader) → John Lewis, '''Moved''', 27 July 2020, [[Talk:John Lewis/Archive 1#Requested move 27 July 2020|<small>discussion</small>]]
* RM, John Lewis → John Lewis (politician), '''Not moved''' <small>(procedural close)</small>, 23 August 2020, [[Talk:John Lewis#Requested move 23 August 2020|<small>discussion</small>]]
* RM, John Lewis → John Lewis (politician), '''Not moved''' <small>(procedural close)</small>, 23 August 2020, [[Talk:John Lewis#Requested move 23 August 2020|<small>discussion</small>]]
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== Middle Name ==
Can his middle name be confirmed? I don't see it in his congressional biography and I see him referred to as Congressman John L. Lewis at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-david-saperstein/going-to-jail-to-fight-ge_b_194601.html
Thanks! --[[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|talk]]) 15:13, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
: [https://history.house.gov/People/Listing/L/LEWIS,-John-R--(L000287)/ history.house.gov] lists him as "Lewis, John R.", and there's a variety of places that specify his name as John Robert Lewis (including [https://www.cnn.com/2013/02/22/us/john-lewis-fast-facts/index.html a CNN profile] and a quote from him [https://www.npr.org/2020/01/17/796954200/rep-john-lewis-fight-for-civil-rights-began-with-a-letter-to-martin-luther-king- in an interview]). Whoever wrote that Huffington Post article might have just made a typo, or might have been thrown off by the fact that there happen to be two Presidential Medal of Freedom recipients named John Lewis (the other one's middle initial is L). [[User:Daknalo|Daknalo]] ([[User talk:Daknalo|talk]]) 18:02, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

== Early life section redundancy ==

About half of the "Early life" section (the middle half) seems to be a sort of summary of a chunk of the "Civil rights activism" section that follows. It's redundant and, IMO, makes the article awkward to read. I think the article could be improved if:
# The "Early life" section was renamed to "Childhood" and focused just on his life through high school. The section would cover his birthplace, siblings and parents, and experiences like the trip to Buffalo, NY.
# The student activism info that's currently in the "Early life" section was consolidated into the "Civil rights activism" section.
Would anyone object to me doing that (and/or have other feedback)? [[User:Daknalo|Daknalo]] ([[User talk:Daknalo|talk]]) 20:20, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
: The "Civil rights activism" section has a similar problem with things being out-of-order and a little duplicated. I'd like to try to address that too, but I'll do it separately (one thing at a time). IMO the "Civil rights activism" section could also be divided into sub-sections (i.e., subsections for the Nashville Student Movement, Freedom Rides, etc.). [[User:Daknalo|Daknalo]] ([[User talk:Daknalo|talk]]) 00:47, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

== July 11, 2020 death report ==

For some reason it was reported that John Lewis died on July 11, 2020. Here is a news story from the [[The Atlanta Journal-Constitution]] reporting his chief of staff stating that he isn't dead. - [[User:Jon698|Jon698]] [[User talk:Jon698|talk]] 19:18, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
:{{u|Jon698}}, I have protected the page for three days based on IP edits adding this death hoax as though it were real. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 19:40, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

https://www.ajc.com/news/state--regional-govt--politics/rumor-rep-john-lewis-has-died-are-untrue-spokesman-says/y3ZdCuC98eO2gD7w7NoOSM/

== Lewis has reportedly passed, July 17, 2020 ==

On July 17th, Lewis's death is now being reported by legitimate sources on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/WesleyLowery/status/1284326141352914944
https://twitter.com/goldietaylor/status/1284324190544429057
https://twitter.com/GravelInstitute/status/1284325477306507264

[[User:Dotdh15|Dotdh15]] ([[User talk:Dotdh15|talk]]) 03:22, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

:It needs to have been reported by legitimate sources in major news outlets. Nothing less. '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">[[User:Acroterion|<span style="color: black;">Acroterion</span>]] <small>[[User talk:Acroterion|<span style="color: gray;">(talk)</span>]]</small></span>''' 03:23, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
::{{ping|Acroterion}} {{u|Mélencron}} here on an alt – just returning to say that this is really poor conduct on your part; perhaps it's down to a generation separating us, but tweets from journalists who are respected in their area of expertise clearly meet the bar of being an RS, and in my time editing, never have I encountered any objection from other editors for using {{tl|cite tweet}} whether for breaking news or not. [[User:Mélencron2|Mélencron2]] ([[User talk:Mélencron2|talk]]) 03:31, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
:::If the major news outlets have not confirmed it and published it, it's not usable. We're not running a ghoulish race to be first to report someone's death. They rtake the time to check, so must we. '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">[[User:Acroterion|<span style="color: black;">Acroterion</span>]] <small>[[User talk:Acroterion|<span style="color: gray;">(talk)</span>]]</small></span>''' 03:33, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
::::That's all well and good if you believe that, but that's not consistent with my understanding of the guideline, as I don't think most editors would consider it objectionable to use tweets of journalists (from major news outlets!) as a source, especially for the type of primary source reporting which is not necessarily going to make it into the body of news articles filed on short deadlines with lower word limits. In any case, it is not at all appropriate for an admin to engage in edit-warring of this type – emphasis on the fact that this was not a '''clear''' [[WP:BLPVIO]], and this was not an appropriate use of rollback privileges. [[User:Mélencron2|Mélencron2]] ([[User talk:Mélencron2|talk]]) 03:41, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
:::::Sourceless reporting of someone's death is a clear-cut BLP violation. There were several edits like that, all equally unacceptable. None of the edits to the article provided any sourcing until the USAToday source came up. As of now, the ''Washington Posgt'', ''New York Times'' and ''Atlanta Journal-Constitution'' still have not reported it. They're presumably doing what reliable sources do - checking to make sure it's not a rumor. '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">[[User:Acroterion|<span style="color: black;">Acroterion</span>]] <small>[[User talk:Acroterion|<span style="color: gray;">(talk)</span>]]</small></span>''' 03:50, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

[https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12158550/congressman-john-lewis-dead-atlanta-georgia/ Here's a legitimate source] (sort of). First I've seen, other than tweets. [[User:Szarka|Szarka]] ([[User talk:Szarka|talk]]) 03:34, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

[https://www.businessinsider.com/rep-john-lewis-has-died-2020-7 Here's a better one]. [[User:Szarka|Szarka]] ([[User talk:Szarka|talk]]) 03:35, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

[https://www.huffpost.com/entry/john-lewis-dies_n_5e095e32e4b0b2520d179a3f And here's HufPo running whatever obit they had in the can, probably.] [[User:Szarka|Szarka]] ([[User talk:Szarka|talk]]) 03:36, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

:And now we're getting the kind of sourcing we must insist upon when we report on someone's death. How hard was it to wait until that happened? I've dropped it back to semi-protection. '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">[[User:Acroterion|<span style="color: black;">Acroterion</span>]] <small>[[User talk:Acroterion|<span style="color: gray;">(talk)</span>]]</small></span>''' 03:42, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
::And now, the NYT has it covered, and the AJC. Someone has checked. '''<span style="font-family: Arial;">[[User:Acroterion|<span style="color: black;">Acroterion</span>]] <small>[[User talk:Acroterion|<span style="color: gray;">(talk)</span>]]</small></span>''' 03:51, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 July 2020 ==

{{edit semi-protected|John Lewis (civil rights leader)|answered=yes}}
He died on 7/17/2020 [[User:Wikijusticereform|Wikijusticereform]] ([[User talk:Wikijusticereform|talk]]) 03:31, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
:[[File:Red question icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]]&nbsp;'''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable source]] if appropriate.<!-- Template:ESp --> '''[[User:NotTheFakeJTP|<span style="color: red">JTP</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:NotTheFakeJTP|talk]] • [[Special:Contribs/NotTheFakeJTP|contribs]])</sup>''' 04:02, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

== Semi-protected edit request on 18 July 2020 ==

{{edit semi-protected|John Lewis (civil rights leader)|answered=yes}}
“change born city from Troy, AL to Brundidge, AL” [[Special:Contributions/71.91.132.95|71.91.132.95]] ([[User talk:71.91.132.95|talk]]) 04:16, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
*Is this factual? his currently listed birth city is sourced. '''[[User:Nevermore27|<span style="color: #660198">Nevermore27</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Nevermore27|talk]]) 07:19, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]]&nbsp;'''Not done:''' please provide [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable sources]] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> [[User:Jack Frost|Jack Frost]] ([[User talk:Jack Frost|talk]]) 07:26, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

== New infobox photo ==

Would this photo be better to use for the infobox? I feel like it's just a more official looking portrait. --[[User:RockinJack18|Rockin]] 04:51, 18 July 2020 (UTC) [[File:John lewis official biopic.jpg|thumb]]
*Current one is better imo. '''[[User:Nevermore27|<span style="color: #660198">Nevermore27</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Nevermore27|talk]]) 07:20, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

==Minor Edit Request re Honorary Degrees==

{{edit semi-protected|John Lewis (civil rights leader)|answered=yes}}

I was reading this page in light of Rep. Lewis's death, and I noticed an objective error. Lewis's honorary degree from Yale is listed as having been awarded by the Yale Law School. His honorary degrees, as is Yale's practice, was awarded by Yale University, and not the Law School -- even though his honorary degree was labeled as a law degree. See https://news.yale.edu/2017/05/18/yale-awards-honorary-degrees-eight-individuals-their-achievements (reflecting that Lewis's degree was awarded at University Commencement); see https://secretary.yale.edu/governance/honorary-degrees (explaining that honorary degrees are awarded by the Yale Corporation, and implying that this is a University-wide honor, not necessarily one that is specific to a school). [[Special:Contributions/172.114.175.131|172.114.175.131]] ([[User talk:172.114.175.131|talk]]) 18:08, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
:{{done}} You make a good point. Also the URL is from Yale University. [[User:KittenKlub|KittenKlub]] ([[User talk:KittenKlub|talk]]) 18:27, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

== Resemblance to Elijah Cummings ==

When looking at the photos of the two side-by-side, it's clear that the two men look alike. It should be brought up in their articles. [[Special:Contributions/24.112.138.212|24.112.138.212]] ([[User talk:24.112.138.212|talk]]) 20:16, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
:Um, no.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 20:19, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
:If you bring [[WP:RS]]s it could be considered. [[User:Emir of Wikipedia|Emir of Wikipedia]] ([[User talk:Emir of Wikipedia|talk]]) 20:20, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

:Apparently they look alike to Marco Rubio, but we would need a source that said the resemble each other. [[User:The Four Deuces|TFD]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 21:42, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
* Your [[Special:Contributions/24.112.138.212|24.112.138.212]] comment is extremely racist! No, all black men do not look alike. I am a white person who is privileged with the honor to call both John Lewis and Elijah Cummings my dear, dear friends. I have had that honor since the late 1960s - I was just a young pup back then. They are much better people than I am - much, much better. As I've told them for decades, I can only hope and strive to have the patience, intelligence, and where-with-all they had in dealing with racist pieces of filth that they had, but I don't. By that I mean, part of my white privilege is that racists piss me off - but they weren't ''allowed'' to be pissed off like me. Ya' see, I've never understood racism or bigotry of any sort. How in the world can one human hate/despise or want to demean/degrade/oppress another human just because their skin color, or religion, or dialect is different? Racism is a learned thing. Hate/bigotry is a learned thing. Seems ''you'' had the wrong teachers? I had the right teachers: the lovely, and very manly John Lewis and Elijah Cummings. To close, I proudly proclaim my undying, unfettered love for both Elijah & John. The world is a better place because they were in it. I miss them both so much that my heart is aching, the hole in my heart is almost unbearable. Yes, I've been crying all day over my loss, the world's loss - and it is truly the world's loss. It's unfortunate for you that you, apparently, never had the honor of knowing, hugging, and engaging in brilliant conversation with anyone like either of those lovely, lovely men. Godspeed my dear John & Elijah. [[User:BetsyRMadison|BetsyRMadison]] ([[User talk:BetsyRMadison|talk]]) 03:47, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
:This should '''never''' be considered for inclusion in this article. John Lewis was a civil rights leader, not a scandalous rag mag celebrity look-a-like. Ted Cruz and the rest of his ilk's inability to differentiate between two great men is utterly idiotic but more importantly, unencyclopedic. [[User:Praxidicae|Praxidicae]] ([[User talk:Praxidicae|talk]]) 19:09, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
::What does Ted Cruz have to do with this? [[User:Emir of Wikipedia|Emir of Wikipedia]] ([[User talk:Emir of Wikipedia|talk]]) 19:27, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
:::{{u|Emir of Wikipedia}} [https://mediarightnews.com/ted-cruz-defends-marco-rubios-john-lewis-faux-pas-says-people-confuse-them-too/] -- [[User:Pawnkingthree|P-K3]] ([[User talk:Pawnkingthree|talk]]) 13:25, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
:It matters not what people think is racist (who cares), it matters not what people like about the article or not. It matters that people ''legitimately'' confuse these brothers in arms. Hence, aptly, the distinguish tag is there. [[User:Trillfendi|Trillfendi]] ([[User talk:Trillfendi|talk]]) 13:52, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
::There is a sentence in the article about Rubio and Sullivan posting the wrong picture. That is all that needs to be said. We certainly aren't going to say, anywhere in the article, that the two men "looked alike". -- [[User:MelanieN|MelanieN]] ([[User talk:MelanieN|talk]]) 16:02, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
:::I have removed that sentence. Should go in their pages if anywhere. [[User:Emir of Wikipedia|Emir of Wikipedia]] ([[User talk:Emir of Wikipedia|talk]]) 16:08, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
:Here is an article by [[Maya Rockeymoore Cummings]], Elijah Cummings' widow, on the subject. https://www.baltimoresun.com/opinion/op-ed/bs-ed-op-0723-elijah-cummings-john-lewis-20200722-sls4huvaznct3ne6kjrqdn5dge-story.html [[Special:Contributions/2601:14F:8300:C1C0:115E:D02E:9D1E:72C2|2601:14F:8300:C1C0:115E:D02E:9D1E:72C2]] ([[User talk:2601:14F:8300:C1C0:115E:D02E:9D1E:72C2|talk]]) 00:13, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

== Semi-protected edit request on 19 July 2020 ==

{{edit semi-protected|John Lewis (civil rights leader)|answered=yes}}
Change accidentally used Cummings when posing their tributes to.... posting their tributes [[Special:Contributions/107.198.87.192|107.198.87.192]] ([[User talk:107.198.87.192|talk]]) 07:40, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
:[[File:Yes check.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Done'''<!-- Template:ESp --> [[User:Danski454|Danski454]] ([[User talk:Danski454|talk]]) 13:00, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

== Semi-protected edit request on 20 July 2020 ==

{{edit semi-protected|John Lewis (civil rights leader)|answered=yes}}
Add to the list of John Lewis' honorary academic degrees: "1999: Honorary Doctor of Laws degree from Knox College"
References:
https://www.knox.edu/about-knox/our-history/honorary-degrees/honorary-degrees-1900-1999
http://departments.knox.edu/newsarchive/news_events/releases_1998-99/Founders_Day_1999.html [[User:OakRunPaul|OakRunPaul]] ([[User talk:OakRunPaul|talk]]) 15:18, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
:[[File:Yes check.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Done'''<!-- Template:ESp --> Was done by {{u|Knoxcollegewnms}}. -- [[User:Emir of Wikipedia|Emir of Wikipedia]] ([[User talk:Emir of Wikipedia|talk]]) 15:46, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

== Wrong statement based on wrong Congressional district ==

In the Tenure section, this statement is not correct about GA-05

"Since its formalization in 1845, the district has been represented by a Democrat for all but the nine years the seat was vacant when Georgia seceded during the Civil War.[66]"

That Atlanta Journal-Constitution link at Reference Note 66 is all about GA-06, not GA-05 represented by Lewis.

If you look at the Wikipedia list of who has held the GA-05 seat, you will see 17ish years (not nine years) when the district has not been represented by a Democrat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia%27s_5th_congressional_district#List_of_members_representing_the_district <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/71.178.196.110|71.178.196.110]] ([[User talk:71.178.196.110#top|talk]]) 17:06, 26 July 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

{{EngvarB|date=August 2020}}
== Requested move 27 July 2020 ==

<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. ''

The result of the move request was: '''moved'''. Intricate discussion, but the support positions summed up by Yaksar's and Cullen328's arguments cover the [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]] criteria and addresses the UK/US issue, that there can still be a worldwide primary topic even if there are different levels of "known-ness" in individual areas. -- [[User:JHunterJ|JHunterJ]] ([[User talk:JHunterJ|talk]]) 13:14, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
----

* [[:John Lewis (civil rights leader)]] → {{no redirect|John Lewis}}
* [[:John Lewis]] → {{no redirect|John Lewis (disambiguation)}}
– There has been some disagreement in the past over where this page should be located. I suggested in the last RM proposal (February through March 2020, [[#Requested move 27 February 2020|see above]]) that this John Lewis is the [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]] for "John Lewis", but the RM closed, according to the admin, as a "three way tie" between the "civil rights leader" disambiguator, the "Georgia politician" disambiguator, and no disambiguator. I want to break that tie. I believe that he is the primary topic, based significantly on his role in the Civil Rights movement as one of the [[Big Six (activists)]] and especially the [[Selma to Montgomery marches]], and his tenure in the U.S. Congress, including events like the [[2016 United States House of Representatives sit-in]]. I believe that the news coverage around his death and funeral cements this.[https://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/story/news/2020/07/26/john-lewis-funeral-edmund-pettus-bridge-selma-alabama/5504592002/][https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/27/us/politics/john-lewis-memorial.html]

The only other "John Lewis" that approaches this level of notability for the name, as the disambiguation page suggests, is [[John Lewis & Partners]], which is already naturally disambiguated from the individuals named John Lewis. The stats show that that "John Lewis" isn't the primary topic, while this one is. Using "What Links Here", "John Lewis (civil rights leader)" has [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Special%3AWhatLinksHere&limit=500&target=John+Lewis+%28civil+rights+leader%29&namespace= over 1,000 articles] linked to it. "John Lewis (Georgia politician)", a redirect, has another [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Special%3AWhatLinksHere&limit=500&target=John+Lewis+%28Georgia+politician%29&namespace= 419 incoming links]. "John Lewis & Partners" is linked from [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Special%3AWhatLinksHere&limit=500&target=John+Lewis+%26+Partners&namespace= 208 articles]. ("John Lewis and Partners" has another [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Special%3AWhatLinksHere&limit=500&target=John+Lewis+and+Partners&namespace= three].) The civil rights leader also had 10x more page views than the department store from April through June (I specifically ended the page view search before his death to exclude the expected spike in page views). I'm having trouble presenting the link due to the syntax, but check it out at https://pageviews.toolforge.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&start=2020-04-01&end=2020-06-30&pages=. From April through June, this page had 225k views vs 27k for the department store.

So, I propose moving this page to "John Lewis" and including the hat note at the top of this John Lewis's page that says {{tq|For the department store, see [[John Lewis & Partners]]. For all other uses, see [[John Lewis (disambiguation)]]}}. The department store's page will be unaffected by this proposal, and should not stand in the way of us moving this page to "John Lewis". Anyone presently going to "John Lewis" needs to click a link to get to the department store's page as it is. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 18:52, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' Starting with pageviews: even before his death, the civil rights leader was [https://pageviews.toolforge.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&start=2020-04-27&end=2020-06-30&pages=John_Lewis_(civil_rights_leader)|John_Lewis|John_Lewis_%26_Partners getting an overwhelming majority of page views]. What is perhaps more telling though: the only time there really seemed to be strong page view interest in the department store was at the time of the civil rights figure's death or other major moments with him: when department store page views shoot up is when the civil rights leader is in the news. The store is usually in the 100-300 views per day range -- at John Lewis' death, [https://pageviews.toolforge.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&range=latest-20&pages=John_Lewis|John_Lewis_%26_Partners|John_Lewis_(civil_rights_leader) it shot up to over 8,000]. Similar spikes appeared whenever the civil rights leader was also in the news, such as when his cancer was announced last year and the store briefly went up to over 1,000. The same spikes were showing up with the disambiguation page -- it is very obvious that reader interest is overwhelmingly for the civil rights figure, and that readers are ending up at the disambiguation page only because they are looking for his page.
:Outside of pageviews, the international breadth of coverage of his death (and indeed of his life) is telling. Were this only the British Wikipedia it's likely there would be no clear primary topic, but it is the international English Wikipedia, and global interest in the figure (given the multiple statements from world leaders and the fact that he was actually eulogised in foreign parliaments), combined with the page views, is pretty clear. A google books search for "John Lewis is" also brings up results entirely about the figure versus the store. All the objective "tests" we would generally use to determine a primary topic seem pretty clear. While the store's official name is technically different, that doesn't mean it is not a partial match for the base page name -- however, what is clear is that the civil rights figure is the primary topic on all counts. We do not prioritise American subjects, nor do we prioritise British subjects, or Australian subjects, or Canadian subjects. The English language Wikipedia is for all English language readers, and in this case it is overwhelmingly clear that those English language readers are looking for this subject. In the same vein, Scottish users might not see Perth, Australia as a primary topic given the existence of Perth, Scotland, but that is not a reason to discount the clear views of the whole.--[[User: Yaksar|Yaksar]] [[User talk: Yaksar|(let's chat)]] 19:24, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Weak oppose''' the page views are quite possibly recentism from the recent death (10 days ago). When I Google John Lewis the majority of the results are still for the department store (probably because of my location), Images is split but Books does appear to show more results for the civil rights leader. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 20:04, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
*:{{u|Crouch, Swale}}, as I said, the page view numbers I listed come from before John Lewis' death. Backing it up by a year (April 1-June 30, 2019), the civil rights leader had 91k views while the department store had 26k (with 1,700 of them all on April 17, 2019, for whatever reason) &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 20:15, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
*::As was noted in the 2017 RM he was barely ahead of the store on most days[[https://pageviews.toolforge.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&start=2016-02&end=2017-01&pages=John_Lewis_(Georgia_politician)|John_Lewis_(department_store)]]. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 20:23, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
*:::It's a much bigger gap than "barely ahead", even if we discount those huge monthly spikes for the individual, which we shouldn't. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 20:29, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
*::::When comparing Google hits, please take care to factor in that the department store surely pours a good bit of money into search engine optimisation, as most retailers do these days. If you can strip out hits from “johnlewis.com” if possible. Maybe this was done with the original search, but figured I would point it out. [[User:Rikster2|Rikster2]] ([[User talk:Rikster2|talk]]) 15:41, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong Support''', Lewis' importance in a movement which is called the Second American Revolution was initially of importance to the U.S., but the reach of the movement into every nation still creates ripple effects on a daily basis. The department store has changed its name to [[John Lewis & Partners]], providing room to primary the civil rights leader. [[User:Randy Kryn|Randy Kryn]] ([[User talk:Randy Kryn|talk]]) 20:17, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
*:Yes but its still nearly always called "John Lewis" per [[WP:COMMONNAME]], the official name was chosen per [[WP:NATURAL]]. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 20:23, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
::*Maybe if it had kept the name 'John Lewis', but by adding '& Partners' the store has changed its official name, so that's at least an added reason to primary the civil rights leader which wasn't applicable before the store's name change in September, 2018. [[User:Randy Kryn|Randy Kryn]] ([[User talk:Randy Kryn|talk]]) 20:29, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Weak support''' per nom.--[[User:Ortizesp|Ortizesp]] ([[User talk:Ortizesp|talk]]) 21:09, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' The subject of this article is clearly the most notable John Lewis. While some of the notability is due to his recent demise, relative notability changes over time and we can always reassess. What matters is current notability. [[User:The Four Deuces|TFD]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 21:25, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. I think that the civil rights leader is the primary topic in the U.S., but in the UK the department store is the primary topic. Since we don't split primary topics by geographic region, the best alternative is probably the status quo of having the two mains at the top of the disambiguation page. [[User:Rreagan007|Rreagan007]] ([[User talk:Rreagan007|talk]]) 21:28, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. The primary usage in the UK is the chain of large department stores with this name, which are found across the country. The US politician, while no doubt a great hero to Americans, is not a household name in the rest of the world and neither of these two major usages is primary over the other. &nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 23:00, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per previous discussions and the [[WP:RECENTISM]] spike. The department store adding "& Partners" to its logo has not changed its common name; retailers add and remove the more formal bits of their business identity on the logos all the time without any change to how they're known. [[User:Timrollpickering|Timrollpickering]] ([[User talk:Timrollpickering|talk]]) 01:00, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
*:{{u|Timrollpickering}}, I didn't cite what his page views are now, because this isn't recentism. I pointed out stats from before his death. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 03:06, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
:*Yeah, recentism isn't relevant here if we just look at the stats from before his death, which still show the same thing. Unless we are arguing that recentism means discounting anyone during their lifetimes, which would obviously be silly.--[[User: Yaksar|Yaksar]] [[User talk: Yaksar|(let's chat)]] 18:06, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. As noted above, in the UK, the department store (one of the most prominent retail brands in the country) is the overwhelming primary topic (and it is universally referred to simply as "John Lewis" despite its recent official name change), whereas the subject of this article is relatively unknown. I agree completely with [[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]]'s comment that "The US politician, while no doubt a great hero to Americans, is not a household name in the rest of the world and neither of these two major usages is primary over the other." [[User:Proteus|Proteus]] [[User_talk:Proteus|(Talk)]] 15:44, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per nom and other comments detailing the individual as having the large majority of views out of all the pages. even if the department store is the most common ''John Lewis'' in the UK, its obvious that on Wikipedia throughout the world in terms of interest more people are interested in looking for the individual by such a large margin. Additionally, i'd argue that the (Civil Rights Leader) description is too limited and doesn't accurately represent the totality of lewis's accomplishments as he would go on to have a lengthy career in congress. Also i'd add that the department store isn't even called ''john lewis'' any more but instead
''John Lewis & Partners'' which is an official rebrand, so even without the pageviews they should be eliminated from consideration on the topic of the change. [[User:Epluribusunumyall|Epluribusunumyall]] ([[User talk:Epluribusunumyall|talk]]) 03:38, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
:*I support the move but don't agree with you there -- as long as it is still commonly referred to as "John Lewis" it should certainly still be considered.--[[User: Yaksar|Yaksar]] [[User talk: Yaksar|(let's chat)]] 03:46, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. Other than his death, nothing has changed since the last RM. He's the clear primary topic in America. In Britain, the chain store (overwhelmingly still known simply as John Lewis) is the clear primary topic and the civil rights leader is pretty much unknown. In the rest of the world, neither of them are well-known enough to be primary. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 11:30, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. Per nom. [[User:Iamawesomeautomatic|Iamawesomeautomatic]] ([[User talk:Iamawesomeautomatic|talk]]) 14:56, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. Per nom. <span style="background:#444;padding:2px 12px;font-size:12px">[[User:DaveTheBrave|<span style="colour:#fff">DaveTheBrave</span>]] <span style="colour:#FC0;letter-spacing:-2px">❯❯❯</span> [[User talk:DaveTheBrave|<span style="colour:#fff">Talk</span>]]</span> 22:54, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong support'''. Per nom. That's what disambiguation pages are for. <strong>[[User:Tvoz|Tvoz]]</strong>/<small>[[User talk:Tvoz|talk]]</small> 22:57, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong support'''. This is by far the most well-known John Lewis. Most people who search John Lewis are looking for this one. We should change this page's name to John Lewis to better serve these readers. '''[[User:I-82-I|<span style="colour:#0000FF;">I-82-I</span>]] <span style="colour:#0000FF;">&#124;</span> [[User_talk:I-82-I|<span style="colour:#0000FF;">TALK</span>]]''' 03:45, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. The pageview data paints a clearer picture than any anecdotes. The disambiguation hatnote should probably have a direct link to [[John Lewis & Partners]] as well as one to the general disambiguation page. [[User:Dylnuge|Dylan]] ([[User talk:Dylnuge|talk]]) 03:59, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Comment'''. I fear we're being overwhelmed by editors who don't get the fact that this is English-''language'' Wikipedia and not American Wikipedia. We don't give primacy to American topics just because there are more Americans around. Of course the civil rights leader is searched for more; because there ''are'' more Americans and also because he's recently died. Comments like {{tq|This is by far the most well-known John Lewis}} are talking only from the perspective of one country, not the global English-speaking community. They're ignoring the fact that most of us non-Americans had previously never heard of the civil rights leader (he's not a Martin Luther King or a Malcolm X, who are known worldwide). Just as most Americans have probably never heard of the chain store. Wikipedia is a global encyclopaedia; it doesn't and shouldn't just reflect the interests of one country. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 10:03, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
:*Indeed, we service all English language readers, not just Americans, or Britons, or South Africans, or Indians. We look at what all of our English language readers are looking for. And in this case, it seems overwhelmingly clear they are looking for [[John Lewis (civil rights leader)]]. Making sure we take all of the perspectives of our readers is not the same as discounting those perspectives if the stats don't show what we expect.--[[User: Yaksar|Yaksar]] [[User talk: Yaksar|(let's chat)]] 17:56, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
:*But maybe you're right, perhaps we should make sure subjects have an international profile too -- maybe something indicating global recognition like statements from the [https://twitter.com/EmmanuelMacron/status/1284424832059412480?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1284424832059412480%7Ctwgr%5E&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.esquire.com%2Fnews-politics%2Fa33355783%2Fjohn-lewis-death-obama-biden-reactions%2F president of France], the [https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/.premium-palestinian-president-abbas-sends-condolences-to-john-lewis-family-in-letter-1.9026360 president of Palestine], the [https://twitter.com/SwedishPM/status/1284451061634347010 prime minister of Sweden], foreign members of parliament ( [https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1284380941117542400?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1284380941117542400%7Ctwgr%5E&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fthehill.com%2Fpolicy%2Finternational%2F507943-international-community-pays-homage-to-american-civil-rights-icon-john in the UK]), or [https://twitter.com/malala/status/1284514579104636929 Pakistani Nobel prize winners based in the UK]?--[[User: Yaksar|Yaksar]] [[User talk: Yaksar|(let's chat)]] 18:31, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
:*Precisely the reason it should be left as (civil rights leader). That’s exactly what he was. He certainly wasn’t the only notable or famous person named John Lewis. [[User:Trillfendi|Trillfendi]] ([[User talk:Trillfendi|talk]]) 14:09, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Weak Support'''. Knowing that "John Lewis" is likely a common name, seeing the "Civil Rights Leader" in the search prompt made it much easier to know I was on the right one. Is there a way to keep it in the search prompt, even if making the article title simply his name? [[User:Hires an editor|Hires an editor]] ([[User talk:Hires an editor|talk]]) 16:28, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' This John Lewis is, by page views, clearly the more notable one by far; he is the PRIMARYTOPIC. I think any concerns about the department chain are easily mitigated by simply changing the hat notes. [[User:CaptainEek|<span style="colour:#6a1f7f">'''CaptainEek'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:CaptainEek|<span style="font-size:82%"><span style="colour:#a479e5">''Edits Ho Cap'n!''</span></span>]]</sup>[[Special:Contributions/CaptainEek|⚓]] 18:17, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Weak Oppose''' I agree that for a vast majority of people(excluding Americans) John Lewis is not a well known name. [[User:Prav001|Prav001]] ([[User talk:Prav001|talk]]) 19:07, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per nom. [[User:Hmlarson|Hmlarson]] ([[User talk:Hmlarson|talk]]) 19:25, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' It’s too common of a name. The title is perfect as it currently is. I do not believe in [[WP:PAGEVIEWS]] and [[WP:GOOGLEHITS]] as a reason to change things 9/10. [[User:Trillfendi|Trillfendi]] ([[User talk:Trillfendi|talk]]) 22:59, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong Support''' per nom. John Lewis is the clear, prominent, well-known subject under the name and it should be reflected, as evidenced by all the data. [[User:Teammm|<font style="color:black;font-family:fantasy">'''''Teammm'''''</font>]]&nbsp;{{su|p= [[User talk:Teammm|<font colour="green">'''''talk'''''</font>]] |b= [[Special:EmailUser/Teammm|<font colour="black">'''''email'''''</font>]]}} 23:08, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. Per others, this change really should have happened before his death anyway, so it's not really a matter of recentism swaying things, but rather making a change that already should have happened more clear. [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] ([[User talk:SnowFire|talk]]) 23:36, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong Support''' per nom.--[[User:Kew Gardens 613|Kew Gardens 613]] ([[User talk:Kew Gardens 613|talk]]) 23:53, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per nom. I picked a random month (4/30/19-5/30/19) well before John Lewis' death and looked at page views for the civil rights leader and the department store. There are nearly five times as many page views for the person. Per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, we should have the page point to the article readers are most likely to be looking for, which in this case is the person. The article about the person is also the one with greater "enduring notability and educational value" than the article on the store (only the article about the person would be likely to be found in a textbook for example). [[User:Philepitta|Philepitta]] ([[User talk:Philepitta|talk]]) 02:38, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Strong Support''' per nom. Pageviews substantiate it. [[User:Rikster2|Rikster2]] ([[User talk:Rikster2|talk]]) 13:57, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per Necrothesp. Nothing significant has changed since the last RM, where I said {{tq|Nothing has changed since the 2017 RM about this.}}. The failure to settle the parnethical question in the last RM means we're probably going to have a new [[Sarah Jane Brown]] situation here. [[User:Iffy|Iffy]]★[[User Talk:Iffy|Chat]] -- 14:23, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
**Well, he did become the first African-American lawmaker to lie in state in the US Capitol and had a funeral where three former presidents (of both major political parties) spoke. I get we want to be careful of recentism, but that’s hardly “nothing significant.” [[User:Rikster2|Rikster2]] ([[User talk:Rikster2|talk]]) 14:52, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
***Yes, but as already pointed out, that's only relevant in a single country. Most of us outside the US know nothing about the man and for those of us in the UK there is another very clear primary topic. Which is why in an international encyclopaedia there ''is'' no primary topic. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 15:08, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
****Well, this John Lewis has articles on Wikipedia in over 30 languages, as compared to 11 for the department store. Not sure I buy the argument. [[User:Rikster2|Rikster2]] ([[User talk:Rikster2|talk]]) 15:33, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*****Really a complete non-argument, especially given the number of Americans who speak different languages. I'm not convinced that "number of Wikipedias on which a topic has an article" is a valid primary topic argument. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 15:43, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
******Well, I think it is a pretty weak argument that a person can't be the primary topic when the alternative isn't even using the same name (John Lewis & Partners), so I guess we are even. [[User:Rikster2|Rikster2]] ([[User talk:Rikster2|talk]]) 15:49, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*******A lot of commenters here seem to fail to understand retailer branding here - maybe it works differently in the States. Here retailers modify their logos with the more formal business elements such as "Co", "Limited", "& Partners" wandering in and out all the time without any impact on how the chain is known or the basic name used. Here's a report from yesterday's Grauniad about the retailer and note how it's referred to throughout: [https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jul/30/john-lewis-considers-closing-more-waitrose-stores] [[User:Timrollpickering|Timrollpickering]] ([[User talk:Timrollpickering|talk]]) 16:07, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
********Actually, I understand branding quite well so please don’t assume. If the COMMONNAME is actually “John Lewis,” then the page didn’t need to be moved to include “& Partners.” See [[Walmart]] (whose name is “Walmart Stores.” But the experience today for a user searching “John Lewis” and expecting to go to an article on the store today is exactly the same as what it would be if this article is made the primary topic – they would be directed to the “wrong place” and at the top is a link directing them to “John Lewis & Partners.” The user still need 2 clicks to get to the store no matter what we do. [[User:Rikster2|Rikster2]] ([[User talk:Rikster2|talk]]) 16:20, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*********Why is it so hard to grasp that the chain store is almost invariably referred to as John Lewis, despite what its formal name may be? We only added the "& Partners" bit as natural disambiguation on Wikipedia to avoid parenthetical disambiguation. That doesn't make it its common name. Absolutely ''nobody'' in the UK says "I'm going to John Lewis and Partners"! Arguing that because the Wikipedia article is named John Lewis & Partners means the civil rights leader must be the primary topic for the name John Lewis is frankly laughable and shows a lack of understanding of how primary topics work. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 16:23, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
**********No, this John Lewis should be the primary topic because he gets more page views, is more present in scholarship/books and I’d be willing to bet he also is the primary by Google hits if you strip out non-independent hits for the stores. I’d also argue this Lewis passes the historical significance test. What I am saying as well is that the readers experience is exactly the same for those searching the store article no matter what we do with this article. [[User:Rikster2|Rikster2]] ([[User talk:Rikster2|talk]]) 16:29, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
***********See [[Waitrose]] for example (and its RMs) which was also re branded but there was consensus to keep at at the shorter name, as disambiguation isn't needed and that would be the case here if this term didn't have multiple uses. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 17:57, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
****:Do you know how many languages Corbin Bleu has been translated to? [https://www.insider.com/why-corbin-bleu-wikipedia-pages-2019-1] Does that make him one of the most notable people who have ever lived? [[User:Emir of Wikipedia|Emir of Wikipedia]] ([[User talk:Emir of Wikipedia|talk]]) 20:11, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
****::Is it your belief that all of the pages created in various languages for a civil rights leader in the US are a result of the same kind of spamming the article you linked describes? Seems like that’d be pretty easy to figure out if you’re so inclined. My only point is that TYPICALLY when subjects have WP pages in a number of languages they have a reasonable global reach. The article you link bears this out, which is why the Corbin Bleu case is such an outlier. [[User:Rikster2|Rikster2]] ([[User talk:Rikster2|talk]]) 20:18, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*I'm late with this comment, but I would be curious what sorts of other subjects that are supposedly "only known to Americans" also receive statements at their death from people like the [https://twitter.com/EmmanuelMacron/status/1284424832059412480?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1284424832059412480%7Ctwgr%5E&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.esquire.com%2Fnews-politics%2Fa33355783%2Fjohn-lewis-death-obama-biden-reactions%2F president of France], the [https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/.premium-palestinian-president-abbas-sends-condolences-to-john-lewis-family-in-letter-1.9026360 president of Palestine], the [https://twitter.com/SwedishPM/status/1284451061634347010 prime minister of Sweden], foreign members of parliament (hell, [https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1284380941117542400?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1284380941117542400%7Ctwgr%5E&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fthehill.com%2Fpolicy%2Finternational%2F507943-international-community-pays-homage-to-american-civil-rights-icon-john including in the UK]), [https://twitter.com/malala/status/1284514579104636929 Pakistani Nobel prize winners based in the UK], and so on... Obviously the subject is American, but to argue they are only known to Americans is clear nonsense.--[[User: Yaksar|Yaksar]] [[User talk: Yaksar|(let's chat)]] 18:24, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
::Or the [https://allafrica.com/stories/202007210100.html president of South Africa] or the [http://www.radiohc.cu/en/noticias/nacionales/228958-cuban-foreign-minister-extends-condolences-for-death-of-john-lewis foreign minister of Cuba] or the [https://www.nycaribnews.com/articles/tributes-to-john-lewis/ former prime minister of Jamaica] or the [https://twitter.com/narendramodi/status/1284737590256533504 prime minister of India] or the [https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/john-lewis-congressman-obit-1.5654707 prime minister of Canada], or gets eulogised by the entire [https://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/NewsArchive/Parliament-eulogises-late-US-congressman-Lewis-1022593 Parliament of Ghana] or the [https://www.premiumtimesng.com/news/more-news/403761-buhari-mourns-u-s-civil-rights-activists.html president of Nigeria] or...--[[User: Yaksar|Yaksar]] [[User talk: Yaksar|(let's chat)]] 20:00, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
:::Well, for better or for worse, the US is the dominant nation in western culture. Press around the world report intricate detail events which have little impact elsewhere, such as the appointment of a supreme court justice. Similarly, prominent US figures who die get coverage elsewhere despite the fact that their impact was domestic only, which will prompt international leaders to express solidarity with the US. That's not particularity surprising. But was John Lewis known to most people outside America before his death? Not at all. Not belittling what he did, it was highly important, but that's just how it is. &nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 21:08, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
::::Ok, but we don't have a rule that primary topics must be a household name in every country to be a primary topic -- otherwise, we'd pretty much have no people or businesses or cities or works of art as primary topics at all. What is clear in this case: this John Lewis is the overwhelming interest of readers worldwide, and has a worldwide profile given the scope of responses to his death (or if you'd like we can look at international responses and coverage of his life). We aren't talking about template statements here -- again, the national parliament of Ghana held an actual eulogy for him. Perhaps you are right that this is only because the US is a dominant nation in terms of culture and therefore prominent Americans get more global recognition, but our job is not to rectify that and it certainly does not mean we should ignore it. In the UK the primary topic is certainly the store, but we are looking at the interests of our readers worldwide.--[[User: Yaksar|Yaksar]] [[User talk: Yaksar|(let's chat)]] 21:20, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' We have scores of articles - about 70 listed at the DAB page by my rough count - about people named John Lewis. We have a dozen people by that name just under "American politicians". This must be one of the world's most common names. The proposal to make him the primary topic smacks of [[WP:Recentism]] and [[WP:Americentricity]]. "Civil rights leader" is the perfect description for him and makes it immediately clear who we are talking about. I understand the impulse to honour him in this way, but I fear the impulse has been influenced by all the recent coverage about him and eulogising of him. IMO making him the primary topic would be an emotional choice, not an encyclopaedic one. -- [[User:MelanieN|MelanieN]] ([[User talk:MelanieN|talk]]) 21:44, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
:*I think it's more helpful if we think of this proposal pre-death. The same arguments, page views, etc applied on that front -- no one is arguing, as far as I can tell, that this should be done to honour him, or because of views due to recent death-based coverage. If someone was making this based on emotional appeals or to honour him, I assume the closing admin would discard those !votes, but no one seems to be making that argument.--[[User: Yaksar|Yaksar]] [[User talk: Yaksar|(let's chat)]] 21:56, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*:{{u|MelanieN}}, no, I was thinking of making this move proposal long ago. I suggested this outcome in the Feb 27 RM above, but wanted to wait some time before proposing the move. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 22:04, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*:: Yes, Muboshgu, I realise that you have proposed this before. I wasn't talking about you. But I do note that on those previous occasions, the proposal did not achieve consensus. Now all of a sudden there is a lot of support for the idea. IMO a lot of the piling-on "supports" this time are directly related to his recent death and all the adulatory publicity it occasioned. Looking at how this discussion is going, I can see that the proposal to make him the primary topic may well be accepted this time. But IMO if it is, will be for the wrong reasons - emotion and recentism and band-wagon-ism (if that's a word), not encyclopaedic judgment. -- [[User:MelanieN|MelanieN]] ([[User talk:MelanieN|talk]]) 23:19, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
*:::It seemed to be getting support when I proposed it back in the last move, and I believe the only reason it didn't obtain a consensus was because it wasn't the initial goal of the move proposal. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 02:24, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' I agree with {{u|MelanieN}} most of the time but this is an exception. Yes, there are many notable people named John Lewis, but our decisions about ambiguous titles should serve our readers worldwide. As for "recentism", I understand that she is referring to his recent death but it is worth remembering that he was a very important figure in US politics for 60 years. Clearly we should ignore fresh readership data since his death and focus instead on data before his death. It is disappointing to see experienced editors describing the data incorrectly. It is also disappointing to see the issue framed as a US vs. UK issue. It isn't. It is the job of experienced Wikipedia editors to make this decision based on the needs of our worldwide English language readership, not on how people perceive things in individual English speaking countries. When I look at the pageview data long before his death, and when I look at Google Ngram data, and look at Google Books results, I conclude that roughly three to four times as many Wikipedia readers worldwide were looking for this man before his death as opposed to the UK department store chain, and that coverage in reliable sources is comparably high for this man, and that book coverage of the civil rights leader and Congressman who served 33 years is ''overwhelmingly'' more extensive than the department store chain. Hence my support, which is based on best serving our readers rather than "recentism and band-wagon-ism". [[User:Cullen328|<b style="colour:#070">Cullen</b><sup style="colour:#707">328</sup>]] [[User talk:Cullen328|<span style="colour:#00F">''Let's discuss it''</span>]] 01:26, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' for the reasons above. Contra MelanieN, the emotional choice is not recognising this is the primary topic, emotion based on national origin discrimination. The standard metrics point to this topic being the primary topic, regardless of what nation he is from. That there are other people named John Lewis certainly does not prevent one of them from being primary under the cold logic of WP:AT, but it does point to the naturalness of the primary topic being a human, not a thing. The only other topic that is proposed is not only a thing, it already has a different title, making parenthetical disambiguation incorrect under the logic of AT. 'John Lewis', here, logically balances all the criteria, it is recognisable, natural, precise, concise, and consistent with naming biographies, and meets the primary metrics, and all this is encyclopaedically sourced above. -- [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 12:40, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
:It is claimed below that somehow because there are other John Lewis's, that this can't be the primary topic, not only does that not make sense as a matter of AT policy, it is solely based on individual perception, not policy, nor sources, nor metrics. [[John Adams (disambiguation)]] has as many if not more John Adams's, yet there is a primary topic, [[John Adams]] -- a politician, no less -- amplifying that there is no reason-in logic or policy to discriminate against this subject. -- [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 17:26, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per MelanieN, and let's remember the choice is not between a politician and a chain store, but continuing listing 70 uses on the DAB, with the politician being at the head of the DAB. Admirable though the civil rights leader may be, I'm not persuaded that his name is SO well known across the English-speaking world, that he should be primary topic.[[User:Pincrete|Pincrete]] ([[User talk:Pincrete|talk]]) 14:39, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
:*Is there a certain way you would quantify how well known someone must be? Because obviously it's about relative notability, and from our global pageviews or international coverage the answer seems clear.--[[User: Yaksar|Yaksar]] [[User talk: Yaksar|(let's chat)]] 19:19, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
::*A DAB page of some 70 items does also hint at no primary topic especially as noted when you factor out recentism, the current set up seems best but I'd support listing this John Lewis first, ''then'' the department store. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 20:32, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
::::Ordinarily, things like Google hits - globally rather than locally - would be a strong indicator, but this guy has just died and coverage has multiplied enormously. Lewis had the misfortune to have a very forgettably, common name and I suspect his ''(young)'' face alongside King is better known outside US than the name itself I have huge respect for this man - who had three ex-presidents at his funeral and a fourth only absenting himself because of Covid, but I can only record that his name is not recognisable to a non-US audience, the longer name is effectively identifying the subject, not robbing Lewis of some 'honour' by making him the primary topic. It may be crass, but the store is much better known in UK - I don't know the position in the rest of the English world, but can't imagine why Lewis's name would be well known there, even though many of the events with which he was associated ARE famous. [[User:Pincrete|Pincrete]] ([[User talk:Pincrete|talk]]) 09:09, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
* '''Oppose'''. Excellent parenthetical epithet. Timeless. Stripping it helps no reader. Wikipedia is perverse in thinking prominent people belong at ambiguous titles. —[[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 22:25, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
:*Just to clarify, is the view you are expressing that articles about people should always be disambiguated with a parenthetical description, regardless of primary topic status (or lack of)?--[[User: Yaksar|Yaksar]] [[User talk: Yaksar|(let's chat)]] 22:31, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
::* [[User:Yaksar|Yaksar]], no. The view is that titles should be disambiguated when ambiguous. This John Lewis is very well known as a "civil rights leader" to those interested in this John Lewis, and wide proportions of the readership do not know this John Lewis as the dominant association with "John Lewis". I am also expressing that no reader looking for this topic will be disadvantaged by it being listed as "John Lewis (civil rights leader)", the parenthetical helps and never hurts. --[[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 00:12, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
::I cannot speak for Smokey Joe, but I agree with him that description should be sufficient to identify the subject to the majority of readers - there is a tendency to strip beyond that point IMO. [[User:Pincrete|Pincrete]] ([[User talk:Pincrete|talk]]) 09:18, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
:::I certainly agree that disambiguation should be as identifiable as we can make it, and that sometimes it is not, but that seems a separate argument -- if I'm interpreting correctly, this is that human names should always have descriptive disambiguation regardless of primary topic status, which isn't our current guidelines on determining a primary topic.--[[User: Yaksar|Yaksar]] [[User talk: Yaksar|(let's chat)]] 15:37, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
::::There is [[User:Born2cycle/Unnecessary disambiguation]] which gives good advice on why we don't unnecessarily disambiguate. However in this case I still think it is needed due to the fact that otherwise everyone will end up here when typing "John Lewis". '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 16:18, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::Feels like we are going down a different track here -- the discussion at hand is basically is there or is there not a primary topic for this name. If we want to discuss whether primary topics should or should not still have some sort of description on their titles, that may be a perfectly valid conversation but is probably best for a different, wider venue.--[[User: Yaksar|Yaksar]] [[User talk: Yaksar|(let's chat)]] 16:32, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' I have to agree with the above that while a major figure in the US - laying in state at the capitol is not something many get - he is practically completely unknown everywhere else in the world and, with such a common name as 'John Lewis', is certainly not the PRIMARY subject under that name for most people. As mentioned by someone above, in the UK 'John Lewis' is a department store known for completely changing the game in terms of Christmas adverts: and because that's a brand, there's more argument to have that subject as just 'John Lewis', but with ''so many'' entries under the name, all are rightfully disambiguated in the title. [[User:Kingsif|Kingsif]] ([[User talk:Kingsif|talk]]) 23:13, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
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== Edit request: posthumous letter published ==

I suggest someone make an edit to include reference to the posthumous letter published on July 30, 2020.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/john-lewis-letter[[User:Writethisway|Writethisway]] ([[User talk:Writethisway|talk]]) 15:29, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
* if so, this might be a better reference. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/30/opinion/john-lewis-civil-rights-america.html [[User:Epluribusunumyall|Epluribusunumyall]] ([[User talk:Epluribusunumyall|talk]]) 04:14, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

== Semi-protected edit request on 30 July 2020 ==

{{edit semi-protected|John Lewis (civil rights leader)|answered=yes}}
:::under who is speaking at his funeral, it's George W. Bush, with a period. [[Special:Contributions/50.125.228.122|50.125.228.122]] ([[User talk:50.125.228.122|talk]]) 18:34, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
:[[File:Yes check.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Done'''<!-- Template:ESp --> [[User:Danski454|Danski454]] ([[User talk:Danski454|talk]]) 19:30, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
{{-}}


== Requested move 23 August 2020 ==
== Requested move 23 August 2020 ==

Latest revision as of 12:58, 10 July 2024


Requested move 23 August 2020

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

John Lewis → John Lewis (politician) – This John Lewis is a tremendous man who has achieved a lot and has made a difference to people's lives, however... he is fairly unknown outside America. Yes, his page gets many page views, but that's because America is big. In Britain, for example, "John Lewis" is a huge chain of department stores, and when people say John Lewis, they either refer to the department store, or its founder. Wikipedia shouldn't be simply reflective of perceptions in one country. Maxim.il89 (talk) 00:18, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:22, 20 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Video could be migrated

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqsKP1AKQm8

Victor Grigas (talk) 17:50, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Re Disambig 'John Lewis'

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I can't see that this disambig page needs a lead-topic. It sounds as though someone's got an agenda. Just a straight list would do, in my view. Valetude (talk) 20:40, 13 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

death video could be migrated

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https://vimeo.com/442459114 Victor Grigas (talk) 03:26, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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