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== Intersecting with climbing ==
== Deletion of 2 images re nonnotable recognizable persons and image is not clear enough for use ==

'''Mountaineering''' and '''climbing''' are mutually [[Intersection (set theory)|intersecting]] sets. As per the definition mountaineering include subsets of:
* outdoor climbing and traversing via ferratas – intersected with the independent set of climbing;
* skiing – unrelated to climbing.
Therefore, these 2 types of sports (and their categories) cannot be in a hierarchical relationship: neither mountaineering is a sub-category of climbing, nor the opposite. I will separate their categories. --[[User:Elkost|Elkost]] ([[User talk:Elkost|talk]]) 06:41, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

== No section on equipment? ==

There should be a section on equipment. Mountaineering is a fairly technical activity, using specialist equipment, which should be mentioned in the article, with links to all the main types of equipment. &middot; &middot; &middot; [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter Southwood]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|<sup>(talk)</sup>]]: 14:51, 15 July 2023 (UTC)


===Breathing apparatus===
[[File:Mountaineering in Canada; Mount Forbes' summit.jpg|thumb]]
[[File:Mt. Forbes buttress; 2 US Climbers on West Ridge route.jpg|thumb]]
In the mountaineering article in mid-June, you removed 2 of my images for the above reasons. I have tried several times to find a guideline of said infractions using your verbiage as a search string, so I'm asking for your help, especially re the first one (the second one was meant to convey the vastness and grandeur one experiences during mountaineering so the mountaineers are bound to be small and somewhat indistinct). The 2 pics are attached...


I came here looking for information on [[high altitude breathing apparatus]], to link from [[breathing apparatus]], and found nothing. If there is anything useful on the topic on Wikipedia, please let me know. &middot; &middot; &middot; [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter Southwood]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|<sup>(talk)</sup>]]: 14:54, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
Anyway, my question is 'Where are these rules or guidelines, please?' Cheers, BrettA343 [[User:BrettA343|BrettA343]] ([[User talk:BrettA343|talk]]) 15:52, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
:For the first image, the policy is [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_use_policy#User-created_images here in this section], where it states "Images with you, friends or family prominently featured in a way that distracts from the image topic are not recommended for the main namespace. These images are considered self-promotion and the Wikipedia community has repeatedly reached consensus to delete such images. Using such images on user pages is allowed." The second image is very dated now and unless one points out the very hard to see person(s) at lower right, they are not noticeable. I did not remove the other image you placed in that article with the following caption:"Mt. Forbes' summit lunch; nutrition & hydration are key for mountaineering"[[File:Mt. Forbes' summit lunch.jpg|thumb|150px|[[Mount Forbes|Mt. Forbes]]' summit lunch; [[Human nutrition|nutrition]] & [[Drinking|hydration]] are key for mountaineering]]. I cannot see how there is any evidence that lunch or hydration are taking place...so this too really seems a little useless for the article itself. Sorry if I am coming across as rude as that is not intended. I mean, if you insist on readding the images I won't stop you but policy and my personal opinion is that the two I removed were not a benefit to that article. I have thousands of images of mountains and what not and have only added maybe a few to any articles.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] ([[User talk:MONGO#top|talk]]) 18:41, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
::Hell, I'm not insisting on anything; I'm still learning and just wanted to know where you're coming from since I found zip based on your verbiage... so thanks :-). I even asked my mentor what he thought and he'd not heaard of your complaints as you wrote them up and noted that there are many shots of non-notable but recognizable in the Aircraft articles.
::For what it's worth, I thought my two images improved the article. In the first case, it shows how simple the equipment can be and implies that mountaineering can be handled by pretty well anyone (it used to be an elite sport done only or mainly be the rich), while the second one shows how majestic and humongous the mountains are (even in Canada), and how small is man. No other photo in mountaineering shows these aspects of the activity. Also FWIW, your input would be better if you quoted the section so new users like me (and even my mentor) can find the rules or guidelines that you are referencing. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:BrettA343|BrettA343]] ([[User talk:BrettA343#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/BrettA343|contribs]]) 21:31, 7 October 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::Late Edit... Also, as I think of the whole quote from your link (i.e. Images with you, friends or family prominently featured in a way that distracts from the image topic are not recommended for the main namespace. These images are considered self-promotion and the Wikipedia community has repeatedly reached consensus to delete such images.", I would challenge you that showing one mountaineer with basic mountaineering gear on a mountaintop 'distracts from the image topic' - it's '''highlighting the image topic''' as far as I can see. What distracts in this photo of a mountaineer, in your view? <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:BrettA343|BrettA343]] ([[User talk:BrettA343#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/BrettA343|contribs]]) 19:25, 8 October 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::Later Edit... The more I think about these two images in the context of the subject of mountaineering and the images already there and your issues with them, the more I like the idea of including them... for what it's worth. [[User:BrettA343|BrettA343]] ([[User talk:BrettA343|talk]]) 21:37, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
:::Are these images of you or someone you k now?--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] ([[User talk:MONGO#top|talk]]) 00:43, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
::::Someone I know, but he's not featured in a way that distracts from the image topic; '''he's an example of the image topic''', just like the upper right photo in the [[Ice_skating|ice skating]] article... though you might complain that they're not skating - they're just standing there and they're likely non-notable but recognisable (they might have even known the photographer!) [[User:BrettA343|BrettA343]] ([[User talk:BrettA343|talk]]) 03:18, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
:::::I think all this is better served by discussion at that article talkpage.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] ([[User talk:MONGO#top|talk]]) 08:01, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
::::::'''Edit 1 - 13 Oct - Summary, since we've had no bites:''' '''The first photo''', rather than distracting from the subject of mountaineering, '''highlights the topic with an example of a mountaineer and his gear at the top the highest mountain within the confines of Canada's Banff National Park'''. How can a photo of a mountaineer in his element with his gear 'distract' from a mountaineering article? '''The second photo''' reminds me of what first intrigued me about climbing; a full page image in Life Magazine of '''a tiny-looking, hard-to-find solo climber half-way up one of El Cap's routes - it looked impossible to me at the time'''. (I've temporarily put these 2 photos back for context - BA) [[User:BrettA343|BrettA343]] ([[User talk:BrettA343|talk]]) 05:08, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
:Just to be clear, I opposed these two images placement in this article based primarily on policy.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] ([[User talk:MONGO|talk]]) 17:56, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
::Well {{ping|MONGO}}, I can only discuss what you note (i.e. "policy and my personal opinion"), but if it's policy you're mainly worried about with the top photo, as I said probably more than once, '''How can a photo of a mountaineer in his element with his gear 'distract' from a mountaineering article?''' The policy you noted does specify that the concern is someone "prominently featured in a way that distracts from the image topic", which as I've said I think is not the case at all. His presence supports the policy as '''he is an example of mountaineering'''. The other photo supports it too, though in a different way, I think, but it's still about mountaineering (please note that I added their location in the caption to address your point on that).


::Your latest note saya you "opposed these two images placement", which makes me wonder if it's the placement you're also objecting to and had I put them in a different location within the article, might that allieviate your concerns, at least to some extent. I don't know if their current place is where it was when this discussion began, a little over a weeke ago. [[User:BrettA343|BrettA343]] ([[User talk:BrettA343|talk]]) 20:14, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
:I am working my way through the main climbing articles to update and improve them (e.g. [[alpine climbing]], [[ice climbing]], [[big wall climbing]], [[aid climbing]] etc.), but have not gotten to the main "top" articles of [[mountaineering]] and [[rock climbing]] (which are also in poor shape). The closest article that might be of help to you that I have seen is [[Bottled oxygen (climbing)]]. [[User:Aszx5000|Aszx5000]] ([[User talk:Aszx5000|talk]]) 15:46, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
:::Whatever. You just want the images here to showcase yourself or people you know. Bluntly if I may, I do not edit war but I find the images to be nothing of the sort you think they are and if I were inclined to edit war they would be removed post haste. I really see no benefit of a poorly shadowed image with some guy with a cheese eating grin taking up 25% of the image where one can't really see much of anything else, as being an image that encapsulates much of anything really. "summit lunch; nutrition & hydration are key for mountaineering" image does what for us? I see two persons with their backs to us, I see zero food or fluids being consumed and even if they were doing what the caption says, how on earth are we supposed to know that from the image?--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] ([[User talk:MONGO|talk]]) 03:43, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
::::Talk about moving goalposts - you never answer my questions but always bring up new points - your initial complaints never mentioned the 'nutrition/hydration' photo but this lastest post complains about that shot primarily. If you look at my UserPage, you might note that the vast majority of the 125+ photos are not with recognisable people, so where do get off claiming I "just want the images here to showcase yourself or people you know" And yes, I do think they add to 'Mountaineering'. A pic with a caption needs to be taken together, so you know they're eating and drinking because the caption says so - and it's something that isn't addressed in the rest of the article, IIRC. My photos add in the same way the other photos in the article add to it - you could likely complain about any of the other photos with the same amount of validity, too. And your made up reasons for the initial deletion shows just how far you'll go to get rid of these shots. But 'whatever' works for me if that's your reaction.
::::P.S. And yes, I do want my images used... after all, I gave away all my rights to Wikimedia commons. I'd guess that any photographer or ex-photographer who donated something that took an effort to get and then gave away all rkights, would want their images shown. [[User:BrettA343|BrettA343]] ([[User talk:BrettA343|talk]]) 18:52, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
::::P.P.S.: I also note that while you criticise my top photo as being a ("poorly shadowed image with some guy with a cheese eating grin..." ...Did'ja figure a little adhominem would help your case? Or is this just in line with your quote "This is the talkpage of the notorious MONGO! Leave me a message if you dare!"), you've not criticised the currently 2nd photo ("A climber taking the final few steps..."), which has a face considerably less visible than mine (his face is all but invisible). What is it with you and my photos? You don't like newbies to Wikipedia? Or you object to Canadian content? [[User:BrettA343|BrettA343]] ([[User talk:BrettA343|talk]]) 20:58, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
:::::I've donated many images I took to Commons too, and some are used in articles and none have images of our pals or ourselves. My case is based on policy and I am about to enforce it and renege on the earlier comment about NOT taking your images out.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] ([[User talk:MONGO|talk]]) 02:40, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
:::::{{ping|BrettA343}}, take a look at the following version links with [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Mountaineering&oldid=983329390 this one being you last rendition] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Mountaineering&oldid=984616428 this one being my alteration] as far as suitable imagery that is displayed. You will have to scroll down on each of those. Do you see the difference from an encyclopedic standpoint?--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] ([[User talk:MONGO|talk]]) 03:28, 22 October 2020 (UTC)


== Traversing via ferratas ==
::::::{{ping|MONGO}} It seems to me that you're not playing fair when you ask me to compare my rendition to your alternative, because the only reason there is a 'your alternative' is to delete my photos - after all, the article has been there for a while without you adding photos, right?. But, I'll play your game anyway. First, a fair comparison of my revision would be a comparison of no pics in the places that now contain (your) photos, since, IIRC, there were no pics there when I made my revisions (and I tried to use empty whitespace for where I could). Being an ex-photographer, I think photos can add a lot to an article, especially with a subject like mountaineering, where one's background is really quite beautiful in many cases, even in the case of some huts, though it's hardly true with the one in your alternative. It allows one to see new areas of the world that are mountainous and that alone is enough to add photos, IMO. I've looked at much of Wikipedia and IMO the depiction of the mountains of Canada seem sparse indeed. For instance, under [[mountain|'''mountains''']] and [[Mountaineering|'''mountaineering''']], there are no Canadian mountains at all except those added by me and I'd could see adding more, down where there's whitespace (would judisious use of photos be better or worse than whitespace?).


I have never seen the act of using a via ferrata lumped in with mountaineering, and recommend omitting it. Mountaineering typically eschews the use of fixed hardware in all but the rarest cases—e.g.,where the danger is significant (fixed ladders on major peaks) or the hardware is a remnant of older expeditions or attempts that cannot be taken out of the rock (jammed cams on a technical climb or old pitons). The use of via ferratas is likely to occur on popular hikes in well-developed tourist areas, by contrast. [[Special:Contributions/2601:280:4000:3D:CD8:ED66:F4A1:3AE0|2601:280:4000:3D:CD8:ED66:F4A1:3AE0]] ([[User talk:2601:280:4000:3D:CD8:ED66:F4A1:3AE0|talk]]) 12:32, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
::::::But let's look at your unfair scenario where you cherry picked shots to apparently 'go against' my shots, especially in the light of your question: "Do you see the difference from an encyclopedic standpoint?" My short answer to that is 'No, I don't see the difference from that standpoint', but perhaps you can enlighten me as to the difference. TIA. What I see is 3 shots of mine being replaced by two of yours - a substandard shot (the hut shot) and one with no real benefit over mine and containing examples of things you criticise mine for...


== Styles of mountaineering ==
::::::* You complain about the small size of the mountaineers in my shot, yet in yours, mountaineers "further up the slope" are noticably smaller.
::::::* You deleted my Columbia Icefield / tent shot, yet replaced it with a smaller hut shot that looks like it was taken with a throwaway camera.
::::::* I fail to see what benefit a hut shot in Glacier National Park has over a tent shot on the Columbia Icefield... Please do explain. Why not both shots?


"''There are two main styles of mountaineering: expedition style and alpine style.''"
::::::You seem to have a problem answering my questions, like: '''How can a photo of a mountaineer in his element with his gear 'distract' from a mountaineering article?''' (I think this is my fourth time asking you this). And while you keep on citing 'policy', the one policy you cite isn't relevant as I've said before - the mountaineer's presence supports the policy as he is an example of mountaineering - '''a sample of the sport not shown elsewhere with rope and prusik''', he's simply not a distraction. And please specify why you find my 2 U.S. climbers photo "very dated"... please be specific and take the encyclopedic route to explain it (I thought encyclopedias dealt with a wide variety of dates as this article does.)
The article mentions "a '''siege-style''' expedition". Please explain what this is (perhaps in a new subsection for 'other' styles, besides the two main ones).
—DIV ([[Special:Contributions/1.145.36.244|1.145.36.244]] ([[User talk:1.145.36.244|talk]]) 06:33, 8 November 2022 (UTC)) <br>''<small>Support [[WP:FAITH|good-faith]] [[WP:IP|IP editors]]: insist that Wikipedia's administrators adhere to Wikipedia's own policies on keeping [[WP:RANGE|range-block]]s as a last resort, with minimal breadth and duration, in order to reduce adverse [[WP:COLLATERAL|collateral]] effects; support more precisely targeted restrictions such as protecting only articles themselves, not associated Talk pages, or presenting pages as [[WP:SEMI|semi-protected]], or blocking only ''mobile'' edits when accessed from designated IP ranges.</small>''


:I have removed this; the Nanga Parbat was not more "siege style" than any other Himalayan expedition of that era. [[User:Aszx5000|Aszx5000]] ([[User talk:Aszx5000|talk]]) 20:29, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
::::::And as for the lunch shot with noted nutrition and hydration, it's valid because the caption says what it is. My opinion only.
::::::[[User:BrettA343|BrettA343]] ([[User talk:BrettA343|talk]]) 23:15, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 17:28, 10 July 2024


Intersecting with climbing

[edit]

Mountaineering and climbing are mutually intersecting sets. As per the definition mountaineering include subsets of:

  • outdoor climbing and traversing via ferratas – intersected with the independent set of climbing;
  • skiing – unrelated to climbing.

Therefore, these 2 types of sports (and their categories) cannot be in a hierarchical relationship: neither mountaineering is a sub-category of climbing, nor the opposite. I will separate their categories. --Elkost (talk) 06:41, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No section on equipment?

[edit]

There should be a section on equipment. Mountaineering is a fairly technical activity, using specialist equipment, which should be mentioned in the article, with links to all the main types of equipment. · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 14:51, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Breathing apparatus

[edit]

I came here looking for information on high altitude breathing apparatus, to link from breathing apparatus, and found nothing. If there is anything useful on the topic on Wikipedia, please let me know. · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 14:54, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am working my way through the main climbing articles to update and improve them (e.g. alpine climbing, ice climbing, big wall climbing, aid climbing etc.), but have not gotten to the main "top" articles of mountaineering and rock climbing (which are also in poor shape). The closest article that might be of help to you that I have seen is Bottled oxygen (climbing). Aszx5000 (talk) 15:46, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Traversing via ferratas

[edit]

I have never seen the act of using a via ferrata lumped in with mountaineering, and recommend omitting it. Mountaineering typically eschews the use of fixed hardware in all but the rarest cases—e.g.,where the danger is significant (fixed ladders on major peaks) or the hardware is a remnant of older expeditions or attempts that cannot be taken out of the rock (jammed cams on a technical climb or old pitons). The use of via ferratas is likely to occur on popular hikes in well-developed tourist areas, by contrast. 2601:280:4000:3D:CD8:ED66:F4A1:3AE0 (talk) 12:32, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Styles of mountaineering

[edit]

"There are two main styles of mountaineering: expedition style and alpine style." The article mentions "a siege-style expedition". Please explain what this is (perhaps in a new subsection for 'other' styles, besides the two main ones). —DIV (1.145.36.244 (talk) 06:33, 8 November 2022 (UTC))[reply]
Support good-faith IP editors: insist that Wikipedia's administrators adhere to Wikipedia's own policies on keeping range-blocks as a last resort, with minimal breadth and duration, in order to reduce adverse collateral effects; support more precisely targeted restrictions such as protecting only articles themselves, not associated Talk pages, or presenting pages as semi-protected, or blocking only mobile edits when accessed from designated IP ranges.

I have removed this; the Nanga Parbat was not more "siege style" than any other Himalayan expedition of that era. Aszx5000 (talk) 20:29, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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