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== Is there a list of Waco lynchings? ==
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Is there a list somewhere of every person who was lynched in Waco Texas? I am doing some research and I'm particularly interested about any that happened in the 30s and 40s. Thanks <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/99.38.208.30|99.38.208.30]] ([[User talk:99.38.208.30|talk]]) 16:08, 14 September 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
|archive = Talk:Lynching of Jesse Washington/Archive %(counter)d
:On the off chance you check back here after 8 months: [http://books.google.com/books?id=dPZ8NAAACAAJ&dq=the+making+of+a+lynching+culture this book] has a pretty thorough list of lynchings in Central Texas, it stops in the 1920s. [[User:Mark Arsten|Mark Arsten]] ([[User talk:Mark Arsten|talk]]) 00:25, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
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== Lead ==
|target=/Archive index

|mask=/Archive <#>
If we are planning to nominate it for FA, the first thing we should do is to remove the references from the lead. --[[User:SupernovaExplosion|'''<span style="color: maroon;">Supernova</span><span style="color: DarkGreen;">Explosion</span>''']] [[User talk: SupernovaExplosion|'''<span style="color: blue;"> <sup>Talk</sup></span>''']] 04:43, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
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:Yeah, they should go, I usually work on the lead after I build up the body though. I suppose as long as the basic outline is nailed down it will work though. I should have a copy of [http://books.google.com/books?id=Ecm82CkRZX4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=jesse+washington&hl=en&sa=X&ei=58p_T7-pCMX10gHThOHUBw&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=jesse%20washington&f=false this book] sometime next week. Other sources that look promising: <s>[http://books.google.com/books?id=7oB8Dl-F-QYC&pg=PA67&dq=%22jesse+washington%22+lynching&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xMl_T5bwH8bl0QGzhdmeCA&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22jesse%20washington%22%20lynching&f=false][http://books.google.com/books?id=RI-H0of4-i4C&pg=PA113&dq=%22jesse+washington%22+lynching&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xMl_T5bwH8bl0QGzhdmeCA&ved=0CEQQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=%22jesse%20washington%22%20lynching&f=false][http://books.google.com/books?id=8NYvdwH7-HsC&pg=PA23&dq=%22jesse+washington%22+lynching&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xMl_T5bwH8bl0QGzhdmeCA&ved=0CGYQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=%22jesse%20washington%22%20lynching&f=false][http://books.google.com/books?id=y5dkMs1mJyEC&pg=PA109&dq=%22jesse+washington%22+lynching&hl=en&sa=X&ei=48l_T_HbA6jk0QHQrOjyBw&ved=0CDQQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=%22jesse%20washington%22%20lynching&f=false][http://books.google.com/books?id=3xBPDsq2GnsC&pg=PA103&dq=jesse+washington&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Csp_T7SaF-fc0QG1uuz9Bw&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=jesse%20washington&f=false]</s> [[User:Mark Arsten|Mark Arsten]] ([[User talk:Mark Arsten|talk]]) 05:06, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
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:Three more to check:<s>[http://www.amazon.com/Making-Whiteness-Culture-Segregation-1890-1940/dp/0679776206][http://books.google.com/books?id=2mCMADJbvA8C&pg=PA63&dq=%22jesse+washington%22+lynching&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KyeHT4jRB6Wy0AGJ-5XDBw&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=%22jesse%20washington%22&f=false][http://books.google.com/books?id=xfSdgkSjsHUC&pg=PA7&dq=%22jesse+washington%22+lynching&hl=en&sa=X&ei=YCeHT5zEIcLg0QGb4qjdBw&ved=0CC8Q6AEwADgU#v=onepage&q=%22jesse%20washington%22&f=false].</s> [[User:Mark Arsten|Mark Arsten]] ([[User talk:Mark Arsten|talk]]) 19:27, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

== Lucy Fryer photo ==

[http://www.patriciabernstein.com/graphics/photo_lucy_fryer.jpg Here] is a photo of Lucy Fryer from [http://www.patriciabernstein.com/ this site]. Could you check its copyright status? --[[User:SupernovaExplosion|'''<span style="color: maroon;">Supernova</span><span style="color: DarkGreen;">Explosion</span>''']] [[User talk: SupernovaExplosion|'''<span style="color: blue;"> <sup>Talk</sup></span>''']] 01:39, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
:Fascinating, I didn't realize there were extant pictures of her. I'm combing through the pictures of Washington from the Library of Congress right now, but I'll try to get to that one. Even if it is copyrighted, it would almost certainly qualify as fair use (since there couldn't be free alternatives). [[User:Mark Arsten|Mark Arsten]] ([[User talk:Mark Arsten|talk]]) 01:41, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

{{Talk:Lynching of Jesse Washington/GA1}}

== Poor expression in the leading paragraph ==

My advice is, read your intro out loud a couple of times before you leave it. If you have used a crucial, descriptive word more than once, then you need to be consistent in the way you use it.

:''Jesse Washington, a teenage African-American farmhand, was lynched in Waco, Texas, on May 15, 1916, in what became a well-known example of such '''attacks'''. He was accused of raping and murdering his employer's wife in rural Robinson, Texas. There were no eyewitnesses to the '''attack''', but he was seen near the house around the time of her death. He was quickly arrested and interrogated by the McLennan County Sheriff, and eventually confessed. ..... After his sentence was pronounced, he was dragged out of the court by observers and lynched in front of Waco's city hall. Over 10,000 spectators, including city officials and police, gathered to watch the '''attack'''.''
# ''"attacks"'' is used to describe lynchings in a broad and inclusive manner.
# ''"attack"'' is used to describe the rape of the employer's wife.
# ''"attack"'' is used to describe ''this'' lynching, specifically.

If you are going to use "attack/s" for lynchings, then keep it that way. To throw in the identical word to describe a different event (rape and murder) when there are other possibilities, is poor expression, because it creates confusion.
:Your optional words to describe the rape and murder include "the event" and "the crime".
:Your optional sentence construction includes leaving out the repeated noun altogether and using "although" as in: ''"Although there were no witnesses Washington was seen near the house around the time of the woman's death."''
::In this option your reader knows that you are referring to "rape and murder" because you '' haven't repeated the word that you previously used for "lynching"''.

On the other hand, my feeling is that the word "attacK" is not well-used to describe an act of violence that was prolonged and involved a large mob including spectators. The word "attack" is usually used for something of relatively short duration. e.g. if someone had stabbed, punched or kicked Washington as he was removed from the courtroom, it would be described as an "attack". You need a word (or several words) here that suggest the concerted retributive action of a large group of people.

[[User:Amandajm|Amandajm]] ([[User talk:Amandajm|talk]]) 06:31, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Also, I am not sure if the dwelling on "attack" and Washington being a "victim" is meant to imply he was innocent of the murder?
If this lynching was "racially motivated", it stands to reason it was at least as much motivated by the murder. At the time, a white murderer would also have faced execution, albeit in a more "civilized" manner (but he would still have been made a public spectacle). The manner of execution "by mob" was certainly "racially motivated". The fact that Washington was considered for execution in the first place, rather less so. It seems rather biased to choose "the event" for the actual rape and murder, while reserving "the attack" for the lynching of the confessed perpetrator. --[[Special:Contributions/130.60.149.195|130.60.149.195]] ([[User talk:130.60.149.195|talk]]) 06:59, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
:Regarding the use of 'victim', I think we would all prefer to be hanged than tortured and dismembered over a fire, and there is no inaccuracy in using that word to describe Washington. I didn't get the impression that the article is portraying him as innocent. --[[Special:Contributions/86.150.60.103|86.150.60.103]] ([[User talk:86.150.60.103|talk]]) 07:23, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
:Thanks for the detailed comments, but in the future feel free to go ahead and make minor changes like attack -> crime. [[User:Mark Arsten|Mark Arsten]] ([[User talk:Mark Arsten|talk]]) 13:17, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
:Also, in no way does the description of Washington as a victim imply that he was innocent of the earlier murder. If a murderer in prison is tortured by prison guards, he's still a victim of a human rights violation, regardless of his past actions. [[User:Mark Arsten|Mark Arsten]] ([[User talk:Mark Arsten|talk]]) 13:20, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
::The lead implies that this rightfully convicted murderer was likely innocent. It overemphasizes his ethnicity and claims he was an innocent, persecuted black youth, pressured into a false confession. He was sentenced to death by a court and there is no proof he was lynched due to his race as opposed to because he murdered an innocent woman. Not all people lynched in the United States were black. [[Jeffrey Dahmer]] was a white convicted murderer who was murdered by black convicted murderer [[Christopher Scarver]], but the first sentence of Dahmer's article does not mention his murder, his occupation, or the ethnicities of him or his killer. The lead of Scarver's article does not mention race, despite the murders committed by Scarver in prison likely being racially motivated. Articles about murderers usually begin something like: 'John Doe (1 January 1950 - 31 Decmber 2000) was an American murderer.' They don't usually state age, occupation or ethnicity. Why does the reader have to go a long way into the article before working out that Washington was a rightfully convicted murderer, rather than an innocent victim of a racist mob who killed an innocent black youth? If he had not been lynched, he would have been rightly executed by the state. [[Special:Contributions/188.28.197.85|188.28.197.85]] ([[User talk:188.28.197.85|talk]]) 19:54, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
:::I disagree with your interpretation of the lead, I don't think it implies what you say it does. Most sources do treat it as a racially motivated lynching, have you read them? Also, this isn't a biography article, it's specifically about an event, Washington's death. I would think that [[Murder of Jeffrey Dahmer]] would probably mention some of those things, you're comparing apples to oranges here. [[User:Mark Arsten|Mark Arsten]] ([[User talk:Mark Arsten|talk]]) 20:02, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
::::Not the mention the wholly different instances in the two deaths—Washington was subjected to a prolonged torture which was documented for profit and made a spectacle for a crowd's amusement; Damher was bashed in the head in private by one man. One is a lynching which reflects on an entire community; one is a simple case of one-on-one murder. [[User:Grapple X|<span style="color:#556655"><small>'''GRAPPLE'''</small></span>]] [[User talk:Grapple X|<span style="color:#556655"><small>'''X'''</small></span>]] 20:05, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
:::::If there were a Murder of Jeffrey Dahmer article, it would begin something like: 'Jeffrey Dahmer (May 21, 1960 - November 28, 1994) was a serial killer murdered by Christopher Scarver (July 6, 1969) while both were imprisoned for murder in the [[Columbia Correctional Institution]], [[Oregon]].' It would not mention ethnicity or occupation of either in the first sentence. A prison is not a private place, and not everyone in the community took part in the lynching of Washington. [[Special:Contributions/188.28.197.85|188.28.197.85]] ([[User talk:188.28.197.85|talk]]) 20:17, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
::::::Two men alone is privacy, especially compared to an audience gathering specifically to witness the event; as for your prediction of what a non-existent article "would" say, good luck with that. It's clear that this incident was motivated by race, the sources support this fully; to omit it because something that doesn't exist doesn't say the same thing is ludicrous enough to make my head hurt. [[User:Grapple X|<span style="color:#556655"><small>'''GRAPPLE'''</small></span>]] [[User talk:Grapple X|<span style="color:#556655"><small>'''X'''</small></span>]] 20:19, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
:::::::Scarver and Dahmer weren't alone in a private building, they were in a government-owned prison with other inmates and staff. Even if Washington's lynching were motivated by race and it had nothing to do with him having murdered an innocent woman and been convicted of that, it certainly had nothing to do with him being a teenager or a farmhand. Why tell the readers that in the first sentence, but make them read hundreds of words before they can work out whether or not he committed the murder. A whole settlement does not bear the blame for a killing or any other type of crime. Spectating isn't a crime; only a small minority of Waco's residents lynched Washington, and I'm sure that many people were angry at what he had done and would have lynched him if he'd been white. Is everyone in [[Tottenham]] to blame for the riots there in August last year? No, only the rioters are to blame. [[Special:Contributions/188.28.197.85|188.28.197.85]] ([[User talk:188.28.197.85|talk]]) 20:31, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
::::::::It actually had a lot to do with his occupation, and his young age is part of what attracted so much attention to it. As far as who is to blame, well, that's not really the job of our article to say--that's up to the reader to conclude. I'm not sure why you're so intent on talking about Dahmer, that's really not relevant here. [[User:Mark Arsten|Mark Arsten]] ([[User talk:Mark Arsten|talk]]) 20:39, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
:You're saying he was lynched because he was a farmhand? Where's the evidence of that? It's not unusual for a murderer to be subsequently killed (whether deliberately by the government, other criminals, vigilantes - or in accidents). Dahmer and Washington were similar - murderers who were rightly convicted and deliberately killed by others, that's why I compared them. Why mention in the lead that there were no eyewitnesses to the woman's murder? Most murders are not seen by people other than the killers and victims. It unreasonably makes the reader strongly doubt Washington's guilt. The lead should clearly summarize what happened - a person was arrested for a murder he recently committed, convicted, sentenced to death, killed by local people before the sentence could be carried out by the state. Were an innocent person lynched, it would be a different matter. [[Special:Contributions/188.28.197.85|188.28.197.85]] ([[User talk:188.28.197.85|talk]]) 21:10, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
::Being a farmhand placed him on the farm on that fateful day, and may have motivated him to commit a crime. (I'm not sure whether he was innocent or guilty.) The fact that no one witnessed the murder is a pretty key detail, had someone been there there would be no questions about guilt today. [[User:Mark Arsten|Mark Arsten]] ([[User talk:Mark Arsten|talk]]) 21:14, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

== FA Review ==

I plan on nominating this for featured article review in a few days. I came to this article through the front page, and I'm shocked that this actually became featured, but upon inspection of the [[Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Lynching_of_Jesse_Washington/archive1|FA nomination]], it doesn't seem that there was very much discussion over whether it deserved the bronze star; most of the comments seemed to simply be suggesting minor improvements. These are the primary things that I think would need to be fixed for this to embody the best of Wikipedia:
**References need fixing.
*More inline citations from web sources, so that the reader may check at least some of the statements without having to go to the library or spend money.
*Inline citations that have multiple semicolon-separated sources should be broken up into multiple footnotes.
*Article is an eyesore.
**No one wants to read enormous walls of black text; let's put some blue in there!
***Also, a paragraph should probably not have [http://www.lettercount.com/ 1,938 characters].
*The lead should be shortened and given inline citations.

I just want to say that, overall, the content and writing style is fine; I'd much rather this article just be improved than delisted. ❤ [[User:Yutsi|<b>Yutsi</b>]] [[User_Talk:Yutsi|<sup><small>'''Talk'''</small></sup>]]/[[Special:Contributions/Yutsi| <small>'''Contributions'''</small>]] ( 偉特 ) 14:59, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
*Web sources are not featured article criteria, combining footnotes is a stylistic preference and, also, not part of the FA criteria. You may also want to read [[WP:LEDE]] before tagging things willy-nilly.&nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User:Crisco 1492|Crisco 1492]] ([[User talk:Crisco 1492|talk]]) 15:02, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

*:Was about to echo these exact responses. The use of web sources is in no way a necessity, and the stylistic concerns of the references are not something that have been (or should be) mandated one way or another. Nothing in the lead ''needs'' to be cited, and "I like more links" isn't really a concern that should warrant WAR. A much more constructive approach would be to look for phrases or concepts that would make for good links and add them, rather than going through the needlessly bureaucratic review process, which can be seen as a hostile move. for what it's worth, my own review on the FAC page was brief because I already reviewed the article during its [[Talk:Lynching of Jesse Washington/GA1|Good Article review]] and was more than familiar and satisfied with it from that. [[User:Grapple X|<span style="color:#556655"><small>'''GRAPPLE'''</small></span>]] [[User talk:Grapple X|<span style="color:#556655"><small>'''X'''</small></span>]] 15:09, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
*::Having gone over the lede a (what is it now, fifth time?), anything which would logically be linked is linked. If we're linking [[spectator]]s then we've hit [[WP:OVERLINK]] territory.&nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User:Crisco 1492|Crisco 1492]] ([[User talk:Crisco 1492|talk]]) 15:13, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
*:Yutsi, [[WP:SOURCEACCESS]] is the relevant section of the policy that Crisco 1492 and Grapple X are referring to: ''"Verifiability in [the context of access to sources] means that other people should in principle be able to check that material in a Wikipedia article has been published by a reliable source. The principle of verifiability implies nothing about ease of access to sources: some online sources may require payment, while some print sources may be available only in university libraries."'' [[User:Erik|Erik]] ([[User talk:Erik|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Erik|contribs]]) 15:58, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
*You're welcome to take this to FAR, although you'll likely find it an exercise in futility unless you come up with better criticisms. [[User:Mark Arsten|Mark Arsten]] ([[User talk:Mark Arsten|talk]]) 15:19, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

* LOLWUT? Look what fell out oh teh sky~! [[User:Br'er Rabbit|Br'er Rabbit]] ([[User talk:Br'er Rabbit|talk]]) 15:24, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

== Photo ==
Ya know, I'm not into censorship, but is it really appropriate to have a photo of a dead, charred corpse on the main page? - [[User:Balph Eubank|Balph Eubank]] [[User talk:Balph Eubank|✉]] 17:29, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
:The best place to discuss that would be [[Talk:Main Page]], instead of here. There's already a thread open there. [[User:Mark Arsten|Mark Arsten]] ([[User talk:Mark Arsten|talk]]) 17:42, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
:: The instructions that appear when I open the edit window for Talk:Main Page say it's not the right forum for discussing content. I was going to post there, but thought I wasn't supposed to. Very confusing. - [[User:Balph Eubank|Balph Eubank]] [[User talk:Balph Eubank|✉]] 17:59, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
:::The intention there is not to discuss the content of ''the article''; but when it's content directly appearing on the main page then that's the right venue. [[User:Grapple X|<span style="color:#556655"><small>'''GRAPPLE'''</small></span>]] [[User talk:Grapple X|<span style="color:#556655"><small>'''X'''</small></span>]] 18:04, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

== Pre-mortum pics? ==

Are there any pre-mortum pics of Jesse Washington? -- [[User:Zanimum|Zanimum]] ([[User talk:Zanimum|talk]]) 18:08, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
:Not that I know of, unfortunately--I don't recall seeing any in the sources. Photography was not very common around that time, and he was from a very poor family, so it's not very likely that they would have been photographed before his arrest. I guess they didn't do regular mugshots then either. There are extant photographs of Lucy Fryer, but I didn't include them since I couldn't figure out their copyright status. [[User:Mark Arsten|Mark Arsten]] ([[User talk:Mark Arsten|talk]]) 18:15, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

== Baffling 'importance' ratings. ==

This may seem trivial, but this article is rated:
mid importance for us history.
low importance for us texas history.
Doesn't make sense to me. Or, am I confused about importance rating criteria within different wikiprojects?[[User:1812ahill|1812ahill]] ([[User talk:1812ahill|talk]]) 17:00, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 18:11, 17 July 2024

Featured articleLynching of Jesse Washington is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on September 25, 2012.
On this day... Article milestones
DateProcessResult
April 23, 2012Good article nomineeListed
May 15, 2012Peer reviewReviewed
June 4, 2012Featured article candidatePromoted
On this day... Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on May 15, 2016, May 15, 2023, and May 15, 2024.
Current status: Featured article

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