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sXe or SXE
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{{Talk header}}
''A "straight edge" lifestyle is not a philosophy.'' Perhaps this could be expounded on. 11:28 UTC, 10 Oct 2004
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There are some real [[NPOV]] problems with the straight edge page.
|action1date=10:00:27 06 February 2011 (UTC)
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|action1link=Wikipedia:Peer review/Straight edge/archive1
Perhaps you could outline them? --[[User:Cprompt|cprompt]]
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|action1oldid=938664733
The following was moved from the Minor Threat page, but is way, way too [[NPOV|non-NPOV]] to be part of an article:
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<i>This 'movement' was never advocated by singer Ian Mackaye, who thought of it as more the personal choices that he had made in his life than a worldwide revolution.
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{{WikiProject Veganism and Vegetarianism |importance=High}}
{{WikiProject Temperance and Prohibition}}
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{{Archives}}
Unfortunately, the movement suffered from subversion in later years, with tales (not always true - as with most secondary sources) of "straightedgers" beating up people for smoking. Straight edgers - or sXer's - were characterised by black crosses on their hands, which was customary in West America underage punk shows to differentiate those allowed to buy alchohol, and those too young. It was taken on by sXer's as a subversive way of "sticking it to the man" so to speak - subverting the mainstream for their own gain.</i>
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I'll see if I can find a way to gracefully put them in, but it seems like the following should be mentioned:
* Ian MacKaye's later denunciation of the straight edge scene he largely spawned.
* Youth of Today's role as a major 1980s straightedge hardcore band.
[[User:Delirium|Delirium]] 19:46 28 Jun 2003 (UTC)


== Older references to validate. ==
== Sex ==


The article dates it back to the 80's - is there any actual reference material for this? Everything seems to be written in the 2010's claiming it existed in the 80's. The only 80's mention is actually a 2010's article saying a 80's song sung about vegetarianism.
Most straight-edgers today do not refrain from sex; many of them are quite promiscuous (I must say I am in a minority among straight-edgers in liking the sexual abstinence aspect). In any case, I'm removing the bit about sexual abstinence from the four main points.--[[User:Mgekelly|XmarkX]] 07:36, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)


== Crass, Conflict, etc. ==
:Well, it's definitionally part of the concept, since Minor Threat coined the concept with "don't smoke, don't drink, don't fuck", and I know at least a few people who consider it part of the lifestyle, so I added it back in. It seems to be somewhat of a controversy in at least some areas&mdash;some people actually consider the promiscuous people (the ones you describe) as being as bad as drug addicts (basically "sex addicts"), part of the hedonistic lifestyle that's essentially the antithesis of the straightedge lifestyle. --[[User:Delirium|Delirium]] 06:54, Jun 9, 2004 (UTC)


Veganism in punk music goes back to Crass in the late 1970s. According to members of the Swedish punk band, there is a huge difference between American and European straight edge. It was hyper political in Europe, veganism, feminism, etc. In the USA it was completely apolitical. Dennis Lyxzén of Refused said that in the USA it was a "life style patch" that you would put on when you were to be seen in public.
:I resally diasagree. The sex rule is ommitted by ''most'' Sxers, not just 'sometiems'. The connection between Ian MacKaye and straight edge is not that significant - MacKaye himself was not straight edge, nor was Minor Threat. Having a foundational influence on a movement does not mean that what you say dictates how the movement works. Minor Threat's songs are ''not'' an SXe bible. They are one of many influences on straight edge. Most straight-edgers are not anti-promiscuity, and to say they are on this page promotes a misconception. Many straight-edgers consider eating meat as bad as taking drugs, and many consider those who do not to be straight-edge. In contrast, I have never heard of a straight-edger who didn't consider someone straight-edge because of their sexual behaviour.
:There really is a serious problem encountered by straight-edgers that so many people who are not sXe, even in punk circles, assume that straight-edgers are anti-promiscuity, or vegan or Christian. This encyclopedia should be about providing accurate information.--[[User:Mgekelly|XmarkX]] 09:51, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)


There is always problems when you deal with radically different cultures like America and European. As a European I read things through secular eyes. I have no concept of religion. In the USA, everything is about religion. Maybe this should be divided into American and European straight edge, because much of the stuff mentioned makes no sense to a European. I guess it's the same the other way around. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/89.253.73.146|89.253.73.146]] ([[User talk:89.253.73.146#top|talk]]) 15:34, 2 April 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:I suppose it must depend on what circles you travel in&mdash;''most'' sXers I know are anti-promiscuity, but not anti-meat-eating, and base much of their lifestyle on Minor Threat and a few other bands, like Youth of Today (in addition to having Minor Threat patches on their jackets and whatnot). Perhaps this differs by region? --[[User:Delirium|Delirium]] 17:13, Jun 9, 2004 (UTC)


Crass were vegetarian. I don't know when or if they or individuals became vegan. Certain some, e.g. Steve Ignorant, weren't. Yeah, I know the comment's 4 years old but otherwise, it raises fair points I refer to below. --[[User:Danny Mamby|Danny Mamby]] ([[User talk:Danny Mamby|talk]]) 08:29, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
::Hmm, another thought I had&mdash;what age people are the ones you're talking about? The sXers I know are mostly mid-20s or older, so this might differ amongst the current teenage crowd, with whom I'm not familiar. --[[User:Delirium|Delirium]] 17:19, Jun 9, 2004 (UTC)


== Origins of term ==
:It's true that the region I'm in, Australia, is probably not that representative. ''However'', I'm basing my view also on the current stances of straight-edge bands and zines, from Europe and the US, which uniformly are interested in veganism and not sex. I refer you to very popular current sXe bands like Good Clean Fun and Rambo. People I am talking about range from 14 to 30, same trends among all of them.--[[User:Mgekelly|XmarkX]] 01:35, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)


I read an interview with the “Godfather of Vegan Straight Edge”, Patrick “Rat” Poole[https://diyconspiracy.net/statement-tracing-the-roots-of-vegan-straight-edge/] and it says,
I googled and found this:


"When was the first time someone used the term Vegan Straight Edge? What’s the world’s first vegan straight edge band and what’s the story of the bands you’ve been involved in prior to the birth of Vegan Reich / Statement?
From a Minor Threat interview in Touch & Go zine:
"Ian: Like Straight Edge, people have taken it to an extreme...as far
as i'm concerned all we did was put out an idea... if people wanna
hear it as preaching if that's what they want. Straight edge to me
is someone who is alert enough to benefit from what he or she is
doing...


Ha, well, if you read about [[Hardline (subculture)|Hardline]] on wikipedia, it states that I came up with the term Vegan Straight Edge. I’ve recently spoken to Sean Muttaqi ([[Vegan Reich]]) about this, and he confirms that it was me!"
"Lyle: the drug and alcohol is only one side of it anyway, it's alot
more than that, there are other things that can sidetrack you...


There's a reference on the Hardline page, but not here. Poole's mention but not relating to this.
"Ian: That's what "don't Fuck" means... alot of people think that to
be straight edge you can't drink, smoke, or have sex and that's
silly... what the don't fuck thing is that the whole getting laid
and getting head thing


As an aside, I find both topics, especially the Hardline one, a little problematic in the way they/it portray the ideas as a "gang code" or rigidly adhered to identity required to be a member of something (that basically didn't exist beyond an op-ed in a 'zine), as if it was [[Mean Girls]]. It get worse when claims like "influenced by Islam" are included. I'm guessing they were written by people who weren't alive at the time? --[[User:Danny Mamby|Danny Mamby]] ([[User talk:Danny Mamby|talk]]) 08:17, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
"Lyle: living for sex


== Political ideology ==
"Ian: following your penis around is fucking people up more than
Per recommendation from Damien Linnane, raising the issue of what seems like unnecessary muddling in the second paragraph. The sentence "some left-leaning activists" is vague and selectively biased. There is nothing to suggest some right-leaning activists don't view straight edge with hostility. In fact, straight edge as a reaction to the status quo puts it in contrast with the right-wing's adherence to the status quo. The inclusion of the sentence also gives the false impression that straight edge isn't generally left-leaning. Haenfler calls straight edgers "(usually) progressive."<ref>https://haenfler.sites.grinnell.edu/subcultures-and-scenes/straight-edge/</ref> To avoid causing misperception, I believe the sentence should be removed or replaced with a more precise statement on the political identity of straight edgers. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2601:600:9180:6AD0:91D5:49C7:DA8:CED0|2601:600:9180:6AD0:91D5:49C7:DA8:CED0]] ([[User talk:2601:600:9180:6AD0:91D5:49C7:DA8:CED0#top|talk]]) 07:15, 16 January 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
anything"


{{reflist-talk}}
at http://www.faqs.org/faqs/cultures/straight-edge-faq/section-8.html

While modern straight edgers seem to have decided that it really does mean you can't drink or smoke, a lot of them hold the same position on sex as Mackaye did. Hope that helps.

== Straight Edge is more of a Counterculture rather a Subculture ==

Straight Edge is more of a Counterculture than Subculture.

Counterculture is defined as - group's values and norms placed in opposition to the dominant culture.
Subculture is defined as - a world within a larger world of the dominant culture. Each subculture has a disctinctive view.

But when Values and norms are in opposition to the mainstream values and norms it falls more into the Counterculture.

- A friendly Sociologist

Agreed. I don't think straight edge would have even existed had punk not generally condoned all of the things that sXe rejects now. --[[User:BDD|BDD]] 14:53, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

==Rise Against==
Authough they have straight edge members one of them is not therefore they're not relaly a straight edge band, maybe they should be removed?

== Anyone see the irony... ==

In a picture of someone with "Straight Edge" tattooed on their wrist?

I thought one part of being straight edge, at least in the circles I've been exposed to, was to not harm your body, and therefor, tattooing isn't really considered something "straight edge" people do.

:Straight edge, for most, is about abstinence and self-discipline, what is and isn't straight edge is generally decided by the general consensus of straight edge kids, so considering 50% of straight edge kids have tattoos of some form, i'd say it is stil straight edge to have tattoos - [[User:Xsharksx|Xsharksx]] 23:10, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

:I don't see why tattoos should be considered harming one's body. [[User:TUF-KAT|Tuf-Kat]] 00:43, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)

::I can see this point, but I have never actually heard of it being part of someone's edge - I am the only straight-edger I have ever met who has no tattoos. For most people tattoos are part of being sxe - I suspect you're confusing us with [[hard-line]].--[[User:Mgekelly|XmarkX]] 05:08, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

:::I don't have any tattoos either --[[User:Xsharksx|Xsharksx]] 12:38, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I have no tatttoos either. I in fact know of no sXer's in my community that have them. It's just personal choice.

== Youth? ==

Isn't it the case that the majority of the members of the straight edge subculture are young people? Isn't this fundamentally a youth movement? Of course, like any group without central authority, I am sure there are old(er) straight edge people, but aren't the vast majority people in their teens and twenties? Should this be mentioned in the article? I would add it myself, but for all I know the majority of straight edge people are 60-year-old punk fans... (somehow I doubt it) [[User:Nohat|Nohat]] 08:30, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

:Yes, but only because most people "break the edge" once they get older ("sXe till 21!!" is usually joked about). Through a message board I frequented I knew of a 30-something straight edge guy. --[[User:macaddct1984|macaddct1984]] 12:36, 3 March 2005 (UTC)

::Well, if encountering a straight edge person who is over 30 is considered a rarity, then I definitely think it's fair to say that this is a youth-oriented subculture. I've added this to the article. [[User:Nohat|Nohat]] 18:40, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

==Criticism==

I think we ought to have a section for criticism or controversy. (I've joked with friends that ''every'' article on Wikipedia needs a "Controversy" section just because so many already do, but that's beside the point. :) ) Obviously, straight edge is not something that every one can agree on, and there is criticism. Many people I know, and I would count myself among them, follow many or all of the straight edge tenets but informally - i.e. if we ever ''did'' smoke or have loveless sex, we wouldn't necessarily beat ourselves up (pardon the pun) about it. I have also seen the movement criticized on the grounds that it is a label that is best rejected in favor of the aforementioned informal following. I have to say I agree with most of that, and it seems like MacKaye probably would for the most part too. Thoughts? --[[User:BDD|BDD]] 14:58, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

== removal of "Deadhead" lyrics. ==

I took them out for two reasons:
1) They're not really relevant to sXe; the song attacks the band and the fans but never explicitly advocates the straight-edge lifestyle. (besides, just becasue someone is a deadhead doesn't mean the smoke up and get drunk - there are "clean" deadheads.)
2) Ian MacKaye didn't write those lyrics, Nathan Strejeck did. Perhaps the heading could be re-named "Influential Early sXe Lyrics" instead of "Influential Early MacKaye Lyrics" to incorporate more bands' lyrics?

== political beliefs ==

I think this article could do a more expansive job of covering the political beliefs/orientation of straight edgers. The article mentions the ecology movement and the Animal Liberation Front; are a significant percentage of straight edgers supporters of those groups? Can we assume that as a group they have left wing views (marxism, anarchism)? Or perhaps they are more in tune with the right wing philosophy of libertarianism? If they are a genuine counterculture which stands in opposition to certain aspects of the status quo, then can we assume that this opposition extends into the political sphere as well? If any of the straight edgers browsing/working on this article have some info on these questions then I think it should be added. - [[Anon]]

== sXe or SXE ==

I have told the first is correct [[User:Paul foord|Paul foord]] 4 July 2005 13:16 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 15:34, 18 July 2024

Article milestones
DateProcessResult
February 6, 2011Peer reviewReviewed

Older references to validate.

[edit]

The article dates it back to the 80's - is there any actual reference material for this? Everything seems to be written in the 2010's claiming it existed in the 80's. The only 80's mention is actually a 2010's article saying a 80's song sung about vegetarianism.

Crass, Conflict, etc.

[edit]

Veganism in punk music goes back to Crass in the late 1970s. According to members of the Swedish punk band, there is a huge difference between American and European straight edge. It was hyper political in Europe, veganism, feminism, etc. In the USA it was completely apolitical. Dennis Lyxzén of Refused said that in the USA it was a "life style patch" that you would put on when you were to be seen in public.

There is always problems when you deal with radically different cultures like America and European. As a European I read things through secular eyes. I have no concept of religion. In the USA, everything is about religion. Maybe this should be divided into American and European straight edge, because much of the stuff mentioned makes no sense to a European. I guess it's the same the other way around. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.253.73.146 (talk) 15:34, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Crass were vegetarian. I don't know when or if they or individuals became vegan. Certain some, e.g. Steve Ignorant, weren't. Yeah, I know the comment's 4 years old but otherwise, it raises fair points I refer to below. --Danny Mamby (talk) 08:29, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Origins of term

[edit]

I read an interview with the “Godfather of Vegan Straight Edge”, Patrick “Rat” Poole[1] and it says,

"When was the first time someone used the term Vegan Straight Edge? What’s the world’s first vegan straight edge band and what’s the story of the bands you’ve been involved in prior to the birth of Vegan Reich / Statement?

Ha, well, if you read about Hardline on wikipedia, it states that I came up with the term Vegan Straight Edge. I’ve recently spoken to Sean Muttaqi (Vegan Reich) about this, and he confirms that it was me!"

There's a reference on the Hardline page, but not here. Poole's mention but not relating to this.

As an aside, I find both topics, especially the Hardline one, a little problematic in the way they/it portray the ideas as a "gang code" or rigidly adhered to identity required to be a member of something (that basically didn't exist beyond an op-ed in a 'zine), as if it was Mean Girls. It get worse when claims like "influenced by Islam" are included. I'm guessing they were written by people who weren't alive at the time? --Danny Mamby (talk) 08:17, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Political ideology

[edit]

Per recommendation from Damien Linnane, raising the issue of what seems like unnecessary muddling in the second paragraph. The sentence "some left-leaning activists" is vague and selectively biased. There is nothing to suggest some right-leaning activists don't view straight edge with hostility. In fact, straight edge as a reaction to the status quo puts it in contrast with the right-wing's adherence to the status quo. The inclusion of the sentence also gives the false impression that straight edge isn't generally left-leaning. Haenfler calls straight edgers "(usually) progressive."[1] To avoid causing misperception, I believe the sentence should be removed or replaced with a more precise statement on the political identity of straight edgers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:600:9180:6AD0:91D5:49C7:DA8:CED0 (talk) 07:15, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://haenfler.sites.grinnell.edu/subcultures-and-scenes/straight-edge/
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