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Changing the 2020 census numbers

The problem with never changing the 2020 census population on the chart is that some of the MSA definitions have changed since 2020, and comparing the 2023 estimates for the current definition of an MSA to the 2020 census report for a previous definition of that MSA may be grossly misleading about any changes in population. Donald Albury 21:08, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When the new 2023 delineations were released, I manually went through each one of them and recalculated the MSAs given the new boundaries. Since MSAs are defined by county borders, I just used the source from the OMB which listed each county of the new boundaries and updated the 2020 Census figures to reflect those. The 2020 Census column in this chart is indeed the population figures given the new boundaries. Coulraphobic123 (talk) 01:12, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Even worse, I see many pages with 2010 and even 2000 data. These should be removed unless there is no more recent data, right? Keystone18 (talk) 15:37, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would say the choices are: 1) update them; 2) place an {{Update}} or {{Update inline}} tag; 3) leave them alone because they are correct in their context (assuming they show the year the data is from). Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 15:05, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The navbox

Minor question, but in {{U.S. city population tables}}, should the numbers include Puerto Rico? Kk.urban (talk) 22:45, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As Puerto Rico is a part of the United States, that would seem to make sense. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 23:45, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Census Bureau does separate statistical areas into two categories, the United States and Puerto Rico, and so do our lists. However, it makes sense to include Puerto Rico, because it's on our pages. Kk.urban (talk) 00:24, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Question

Can the 2023 estimates be used on respective pages, or are the 2020 full census numbers what should be used? Keystone18 (talk) 15:35, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You can add estimates in addition to the 2020 count, but the 2020 count is the primary number used. Criticalthinker (talk) 17:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And preferably official estimate figures from the US Census Bureau, though if other estimates are used then the sources should be cited. Coulraphobic123 (talk) 02:43, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! Keystone18 (talk) 21:20, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Boise City is in Oklahoma

The link for Boise, ID says Boise City, ID. Boise city is in Oklahoma. The link correctly points to Boise, ID. The tag should probably be adjusted to the correct city so that there is no confusion. 64.89.105.195 (talk) 19:40, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The name of the MSA, as defined by the Office of Management and Budget and reported by the Census Bureau, is "Boise City-Nampa, ID", and of the CSA, "Boise City-Mountain Home-Ontario, ID-OR". The entry in the list is correct. Donald Albury 20:56, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New Map

The 2023 metropolitan and micropolitan statistical area map has now been published (https://www.census.gov/geographies/reference-maps/2023/geo/cbsa.html). Could you please update the map on the article? 141.156.171.41 (talk) 22:02, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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+* <nowiki>[[Greater Los Angeles Area#Combined Statistical Area|Los Angeles–Long Beach, CA CSA]]</nowiki> Anchor [[Greater Los Angeles Area#Combined Statistical Area]] links to a specific web page: [[Combined statistical area]]. The anchor (#Combined Statistical Area) is no longer available because it was [[Special:Diff/827384241|deleted by a user]] before. <!-- {"title":"Combined Statistical Area","appear":{"revid":181465430,"parentid":180918185,"timestamp":"2008-01-01T22:55:34Z","removed_section_titles":["Components of the metropolitan area","Urban areas of the region"],"added_section_titles":["Metropolitan Statistical Area","Combined Statistical Area"]},"disappear":{"revid":827384241,"parentid":827168598,"timestamp":"2018-02-24T12:10:04Z","replaced_anchors":{"Combined Statistical Area":"Combined statistical area"},"removed_section_titles":["Combined Statistical Area"],"added_section_titles":["Combined statistical area"]},"very_different":false,"rename_to":"Combined statistical area"} -->
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+== Changing the 2020 census numbers ==
-== 2022 estimates ==
-The US Census Bureau has released its annual county population estimates. Since MSAs are defined by county boundaries, that generally means that we can update the MSA and μSA estimates, too. However, Connecticut is no longer going with county boundaries and is now going with "planning regions" and, as such, the metro/micro estimates will not be released until May in order for them to make the requisite adjustments. You can briefly read more about it on the Census Bureau's official release for county population estimates. [https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2023/population-estimates-counties.html]. As such, I feel we should hold off on updating this table and the micro table until that time. Agreed?  [[User:Coulraphobic123|Coulraphobic123]] ([[User talk:Coulraphobic123|talk]]) 23:35, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
-== Hyphens and Dashes ==
+The problem with never changing the 2020 census population on the chart is that some of the MSA definitions have changed since 2020, and comparing the 2023 estimates for the current definition of an MSA to the 2020 census report for a previous definition of that MSA may be grossly misleading about any changes in population. [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 21:08, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
-My understanding is the census bureau names MSAs and CSAs using two hyphens instead of an en dash(–). This looks a little funny, but it can help people avoid issues if they are trying to match text. Is the current use of the en dash intentional in names like 'Nashville-Davidson–Murfreesboro–Franklin, TN MSA'? [[Special:Contributions/38.140.38.234|38.140.38.234]] ([[User talk:38.140.38.234|talk]]) 18:01, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
+:When the new 2023 delineations were released, I manually went through each one of them and recalculated the MSAs given the new boundaries. Since MSAs are defined by county borders, I just used the source from the OMB which listed each county of the new boundaries and updated the 2020 Census figures to reflect those. The 2020 Census column in this chart is indeed the population figures given the new boundaries. [[User:Coulraphobic123|Coulraphobic123]] ([[User talk:Coulraphobic123|talk]]) 01:12, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
+::Even worse, I see many pages with 2010 and even 2000 data. These should be removed unless there is no more recent data, right?  [[User:Keystone18|Keystone18]] ([[User talk:Keystone18|talk]]) 15:37, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
+:::I would say the choices are: 1) update them; 2) place an {{tl|Update}} or {{tl|Update inline}} tag; 3) leave them alone because they are correct in their context (assuming they show the year the data is from). [[User:StefenTower|<span style="color: green;">'''Stefen <span style="white-space: nowrap;">Tower<sub>s among the rest!</sub></span>'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:StefenTower|Gab]] • [[Special:Contributions/StefenTower|Gruntwerk]]</sup> 15:05, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
+== The navbox ==
-:The Office of Management and Budget defines MSAs. See [https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Bulletin-20-01.pdf OMB Bulletin 20-01] (starting on page 7), for example, where it appears that hyphens are used to concatenate names for MSAs. The relevant style guideline seems to be in [[:Wikipedia:Manual of Style#In compounds when the connection might otherwise be expressed with to, versus, and, or between]], which states,
-:{{tq|Use an en dash for the names of two or more entities in an attributive compound.
-:* {{xt|the Seifert–van Kampen theorem}};&nbsp;&nbsp; {{xt|the Alpher–Bethe–Gamow theory}}
-:* {{xt|the Seeliger–Donker-Voet scheme}} (developed by Seeliger and Donker-Voet)
-:* {{xt|Comet Hale–Bopp}} or just {{xt|Hale–Bopp}} (discovered by Hale and Bopp)}}
-:[[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 19:04, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
-::Thanks for the explanation and linking the OMB PDF. I think a good example here is the MSA that includes Wilkes-Barre. The OMB defines the MSA as 'Scranton--Wilkes-Barre, PA Metropolitan Statistical Area'.
-::I'm suggesting that the en dashes currently used on this page should be replaced by either single or double hyphens to match the OMB's naming convention. I understand that this differs from the style guide, but matching the data in the table to the list put out by the OMB and used in all census related data seems more important to me.
-::Do you agree with that or think it's better to stick with the hyphen, en dash mixture? [[Special:Contributions/38.140.38.234|38.140.38.234]] ([[User talk:38.140.38.234|talk]]) 20:42, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
-:::Ah, I see, there are several such cases. I suggest using en dashes for the hyphens and em dashes for the double hyphens. You can also ask for advice at [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style]]. I didn't see anything like this in a quick search of the archives for that talk page. [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 21:27, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
-::::A little late to the conversation here, but I am currently redoing the table on my own computer in preparation for the 2023 estimates which will be released in 2024. As of 2023, there are new delineations/boundaries for metro and micro areas (see topics on the talk page listed below) and I am putting together a table that recalculates the 2020 Census populations taking into account the new boundaries of these delineations. In doing so, I am replacing all of the en dashes with em dashes, except where en dashes are appropriate...i.e., Nashville-Davidson, Wilkes-Barre, and Winston-Salem. Otherwise, em dashes will be used in lieu of the double-dash in order to separate the different cities. Hope this makes sense and is acceptable! [[User:Coulraphobic123|Coulraphobic123]] ([[User talk:Coulraphobic123|talk]]) 00:48, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
+Minor question, but in {{tl|U.S. city population tables}}, should the numbers include Puerto Rico? [[User:Kk.urban|Kk.urban]] ([[User talk:Kk.urban|talk]]) 22:45, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
-==New Delineations Report==
+:As Puerto Rico is a part of the United States, that would seem to make sense. [[User:StefenTower|<span style="color: green;">'''Stefen <span style="white-space: nowrap;">Tower<sub>s among the rest!</sub></span>'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:StefenTower|Gab]] • [[Special:Contributions/StefenTower|Gruntwerk]]</sup> 23:45, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
-The OMB has issued a [https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/OMB-Bulletin-23-01.pdf New Delineations Report].  This website and the map that goes with it needs to be updated.[[User:Inkan1969|Inkan1969]] ([[User talk:Inkan1969|talk]]) 16:55, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
+::The Census Bureau does separate statistical areas into two categories, the United States and Puerto Rico, and so do our lists. However, it makes sense to include Puerto Rico, because it's on our pages. [[User:Kk.urban|Kk.urban]] ([[User talk:Kk.urban|talk]]) 00:24, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
+==Question==
-:Interesting. Aren't redelineations only done when they update commuting numbers? I thought that only happens once or twice in between Censuses? It appears the last redelineation was in 2020. [[User:Criticalthinker|Criticalthinker]] ([[User talk:Criticalthinker|talk]]) 05:52, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
+Can the 2023 estimates be used on respective pages, or are the 2020 full census numbers what should be used?  [[User:Keystone18|Keystone18]] ([[User talk:Keystone18|talk]]) 15:35, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
-::Delineations are also based on annual [[American Community Survey]] data and population estimates.[https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/metro-micro/about.html] It takes a while for analysis of decennial census data to be completed. The 2020 delineation was issued March 6, 2020, before the census data collection started, so this latest delineation is the first to incorporate data from the 2020 census. [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 11:52, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
-:::Redelineations are only based on commuting numbers, though. I think they do annual updates as it relates to population where an area can become an metropolitan statistical area, or fall to become a micropolitan area. But the actual delineations are based on 5-year commuting data. Now that I look at it, it seems that perhaps the last one was in 2018. It didn't seem that long. lol [[User:Criticalthinker|Criticalthinker]] ([[User talk:Criticalthinker|talk]]) 20:42, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
-::::I believe the delineations occur twice per Census, but I could be wrong on that. [[User:Sedriskell|Sedriskell]] ([[User talk:Sedriskell|talk]]) 21:37, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
-:::::There have been changes to area definitions made in 1950, 1952, 1956, 1958, 1959, 1960, 1963, 1964, 1971, 1973, 1981, 1983, 1992, 2003, 2007, 2009, 2013, 2015, 2018, and 2020,[https://www2.census.gov/programs-surveys/metro-micro/geographies/reference-files/2020/historical-delineation-files/metro_area_history_1950_2020.xls] and now this year, 2023. There have been changes 2 or 3 years after each decennial census since 1950. There were frequent changes early on, but a slowdown after the 1960s. Since 2003, there have been 3 or 4 new delineations in each of the last two decades. [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 01:23, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
-::Okay, got more info on this. There was not a schedule for decennial delineations and the 5-year updates. In 2021, they adopted a schedule. 2023 would be the between decennial delineations and the 5-year commuting flow update will occur in 2028 with everything in between and after (to 2030) being the regularly scheduled annual updates which are minor updates based on population estimates. [[User:Criticalthinker|Criticalthinker]] ([[User talk:Criticalthinker|talk]]) 02:08, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
-:::So, just two (major?) delineations in the next decade. Will the annual updates possibly change definitions of any areas? If so, how will those be announced? I'm not clear on whether and how principal cities have been changed between the major delineations. I recall one case in which a principal city in an MSA's title was replaced and then restored a few months later, based on press releases and news reports, but I don't see it in the OMB Bulletins I have found. [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 11:59, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
-::::I mean, this isn't a significant change; it's just a set schedule, now. We usually only get two or so major delineations since the American Community Survey commutting data is 5-year. And the annual delineations, again, are only based on population change, meaning that the only changes here will be becoming or falling out of being a metropolitan or micropolitan area. [[User:Criticalthinker|Criticalthinker]] ([[User talk:Criticalthinker|talk]]) 00:41, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
+:You can add estimates in addition to the 2020 count, but the 2020 count is the primary number used. [[User:Criticalthinker|Criticalthinker]] ([[User talk:Criticalthinker|talk]]) 17:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
-== Census estimates for 2023 next year ==
+::And preferably official estimate figures from the US Census Bureau, though if other estimates are used then the sources should be cited. [[User:Coulraphobic123|Coulraphobic123]] ([[User talk:Coulraphobic123|talk]]) 02:43, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
-Is there a consensus as to how to go about logging the population estimates for 2023 that will be released in early 2024 as far as the 2020 Census column goes?  Since the borders of some metropolitan areas have changed and been redefined, keeping the original population in the 2020 Census column may reflect a misleading population change. Example: the Sioux Falls, MSA has added a fifth county per the most recently released MSA delineations. When the 2023 population estimates come in next year, should the 2020 Census population reflect the original 4-county population in 2020, or should the 2020 Census be re-calculated to include the 2020 Census population for the new fifth county as if it had been originally included in the first place? Similarly, Connecticut has switched from counties to planning regions which have completely changed the boundaries of everything. Should these also be taken into consideration in recalculating the 2020 Census column? Or should the 2020 Census column just be kept as is without recalculating per the new delineations?  Sorry for not being succinct, I hope what I'm saying makes sense XD [[User:Coulraphobic123|Coulraphobic123]] ([[User talk:Coulraphobic123|talk]]) 02:29, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
+:::Thank you!  [[User:Keystone18|Keystone18]] ([[User talk:Keystone18|talk]]) 21:20, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
-:I'm pretty sure we do apples-to-apples comparisons. So, yeah, the 2020 numbers would be for the new delineations. In fact, that's something that could be prepared, now, for the existing annual estimate if someone has that kind of initiative. [[User:Criticalthinker|Criticalthinker]] ([[User talk:Criticalthinker|talk]]) 08:25, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
-::@Criticalthinker that's something I could start working on this week. It may take a couple of days. [[User:Coulraphobic123|Coulraphobic123]] ([[User talk:Coulraphobic123|talk]]) 11:18, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
-::What about the micropolitan areas that have become metropolitan areas with these new delineations and vice-versa? Should we go ahead and bring those micros onto this current list now while moving the metros to the micros page that changed, or should that wait until the new estimates are released next year? [[User:Coulraphobic123|Coulraphobic123]] ([[User talk:Coulraphobic123|talk]]) 20:18, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
-:::Yes. [[User:Criticalthinker|Criticalthinker]] ([[User talk:Criticalthinker|talk]]) 23:18, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
-::::To which part? Waiting until the 2023 estimates are released next year to shuffle the micros and metros that have changed? [[User:Coulraphobic123|Coulraphobic123]] ([[User talk:Coulraphobic123|talk]]) 00:39, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
-:::::No, I was saying that if you want to change everything to match the new delineations, do that, unless there are objections. [[User:Criticalthinker|Criticalthinker]] ([[User talk:Criticalthinker|talk]]) 00:50, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
-::::::I certainly have no objections. [[User:Sedriskell|Sedriskell]] ([[User talk:Sedriskell|talk]]) 20:33, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
-:Just as an update, I am working through this (and will be updating the micros and CSAs, too)...just taking a while as there is a lot of number and county shuffling and verification. [[User:Coulraphobic123|Coulraphobic123]] ([[User talk:Coulraphobic123|talk]]) 21:52, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
-::Thanks for putting in the work!  There are tons of people who appreciate it; I know I certainly do! [[User:Sedriskell|Sedriskell]] ([[User talk:Sedriskell|talk]]) 17:13, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
+== Boise City is in Oklahoma ==
-== Population Accuracy ==
-The numbers in the table are inconsistent with numbers shown for the same figure on other Wikipedia pages. For example, SF Bay Area MSA is shown as ~4M here, but over 7M in other pages [[Special:Contributions/71.191.218.90|71.191.218.90]] ([[User talk:71.191.218.90|talk]]) 15:41, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
+The link for Boise, ID says Boise City, ID. Boise city is in Oklahoma. The link correctly points to Boise, ID. The tag should probably be adjusted to the correct city so that there is no confusion. [[Special:Contributions/64.89.105.195|64.89.105.195]] ([[User talk:64.89.105.195|talk]]) 19:40, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
+:The name of the MSA, as defined by the Office of Management and Budget and reported by the Census Bureau, is "Boise City-Nampa, ID", and of the CSA, "Boise City-Mountain Home-Ontario, ID-OR". The entry in the list is correct. [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 20:56, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
-:Whatever is shown here are the official numbers. This is an article about official OMB-defined Metropolitan Statistical Areas. Other articles on metropolitan areas either use these delineations, exclusively, or include them in a more general understanding of a "metropolitan area." [[User:Criticalthinker|Criticalthinker]] ([[User talk:Criticalthinker|talk]]) 23:43, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
+== New Map ==
-== Recent changes by the 2023 OMB Bulletin ==
+The 2023 metropolitan and micropolitan statistical area map has now been published (https://www.census.gov/geographies/reference-maps/2023/geo/cbsa.html). Could you please update the map on the article? [[Special:Contributions/141.156.171.41|141.156.171.41]] ([[User talk:141.156.171.41|talk]]) 22:02, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
-Hi there from the [[:de:Portal:Vereinigte Staaten]]! Is there any kind of a summary of all changes by the new 2023 OMB Bulletin regarding new delineations and up-/downgrades of areas to/from MSAs? As there will not take place a new census earlier than 2030, is it therefore necessary to add all the particular county inhabitant numbers of 2020, or is there anywhere a line-up of all numbers of re-defined MSAs one can refer to as a source? It is hard to keep track of things here, as a non-native English speaker. Thank you for your support. Regards [[User:Dionysos1988|Dionysos1988]] ([[User talk:Dionysos1988|talk]]) 21:51, 23 September 2023 (UTC)