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== Revert adding sports figures to the infobox photo == |
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in [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Filipino_people&diff=prev&oldid=600705874 this] revert I was intending to remove just [[Tim Tebow]], as my understanding is that he is not Filipino. I inadvertantly removed several others who are Filipino as well, though. I'll leave it to other editors to restore those photos if that is appropriate. It seems to me as if the addition ought to have gotten consensus here before being done. I haven't followed it, but hasn't there been quite a bit of "churn" in the infobox photos here? [[User:Wtmitchell|Wtmitchell]] [[User talk:Wtmitchell|(talk)]] <small>(earlier ''Boracay Bill'')</small> 08:11, 22 March 2014 (UTC) |
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Are there any Arabic-speaking Filipinos? Though it is an optional official language in the Philippines, I can't exactly find any presence of the langauge in the Philippines other than its liturgical uses among the Muslims of the southern Philippines. Do the overseas Filipinos in Saudi Arabia even speak Arabic? [[User:PacificWarrior101|PacificWarrior101]] ([[User talk:PacificWarrior101|talk]]) 23:29, 20 January 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior101 |
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==What's this Mestizo bias in the infobox?== |
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:I can't understand why users here insist to include Arabic language!! it's not an official for them nor do speak Arabic!!!!!!!!!!!! could we open an open discussion here please?--[[User:Georgethewriter|George the writer]] ([[User talk:Georgethewriter|talk]]) 17:43, 24 October 2013 (UTC) |
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So it's come to my attention that somebody keeps reverting my edits, and replacing them with every single random Mestizo Filipino they can find. Listen, there are like already four Mestizos in this infobox, and perhaps [[Muhammad Kudarat|Sultan Kudarat]]'s legitimacy comes to the fact that he was proclaimed a Philippine national hero by Ferdinand Marcos, probably the ONLY one as a native of Mindanao. |
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You might as well rename this article "Catholic Mestizos of Southeast Asia" if you are going to fill the infobox with 7/10 Mestizo Catholics. [[User:PacificWarrior101|PacificWarrior101]] ([[User talk:PacificWarrior101|talk]]) 05:00, 18 April 2014 (UTC)PacificWarrior101 |
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::Both of you seem to be making the mistake that all Filipinos are Christian Filipinos. But there's a sizeable Muslim minority in Mindanao (Tausug, Maranao, Badjao, Sama, Maguindanao, etc.) who do speak, read, and write at least limited Arabic. Though it is admittedly strictly a second/liturgical language used almost exclusively in madaris and Quranic readings, and native languages are used in everday speech. |
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Here we go again, same idiot reverting my changes in a pathetic attempt to make Filipinos look Hispanic. [[User:PacificWarrior101|PacificWarrior101]] ([[User talk:PacificWarrior101|talk]]) 02:49, 4 May 2014 (UTC)PacificWarrior101 |
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::Granted we do not have numbers as to how many. But the Philippine Department of Education in the past 2 decades have made it a part of Islamic public schools (rather than just religious schools). Arabic was also traditionally taught in non-DoE accredited Philippine madaris long before official government recognition. Please see [http://www.muslimmindanao.ph/madrasa.html this site]. -- <small>[[User:Obsidian Soul|<font color=0>'''O'''</font><font color=gray>BSIDIAN</font>]]</small><font size="3" face =times new roman>†</font><small>[[User talk:Obsidian Soul|<font color=0>'''S'''</font><font color=gray>OUL</font>]]</small> 18:05, 24 October 2013 (UTC) |
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== I Have Made Changes to the Images/Mosaic Discussion Section == |
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:It's part of islamic studies and for them able to read Quran but look for pakistan and india they do the same thing they have some schools included an arabic language just to make it easier for them to understand the Quran and when they go to Saudi Arabia to visit [[Masjid al-Haram]]. |
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As you people have known, a huge edit war took place between I and some IP user from Britain, faking to be an embassy worker and a worker for the [[King of Spain]]. So here is a section, for discussions regarding the people on the mosaic and infobox simply to prevent another huge edit war from taking place. |
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:you will not find Muslim Filipino people speak with each other in Arabic, they will talk in their own local language. Arabic language in some schools in Philippines as you said, is for Quranic studies only, So Arabic should not be included in the article.--[[User:Georgethewriter|George the writer]] ([[User talk:Georgethewriter|talk]]) 19:53, 24 October 2013 (UTC) |
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::Good point. I don't really feel that strongly about it. IIRC Arabic and Spanish were both added simply because both of them were specifically mentioned by Philippine law as languages that are to be promoted among the populace (in addition to the official ones - Filipino and English). If you wish to remove it, I will not reinstate it again. Though other editors may oppose its removal. Don't remove Spanish though. In contrast to Arabic, some Filipinos do speak a pidgin version of it ([[Chavacano]] etc., which is paradoxically spoken mostly in majority Muslim areas in Mindanao)-- <small>[[User:Obsidian Soul|<font color=0>'''O'''</font><font color=gray>BSIDIAN</font>]]</small><font size="3" face =times new roman>†</font><small>[[User talk:Obsidian Soul|<font color=0>'''S'''</font><font color=gray>OUL</font>]]</small> 02:29, 25 October 2013 (UTC) |
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So, I have added [[Muhammad Kudarat|Sultan Kudarat]] in favor of [[José María of Manila]], since is he the only Philippine national hero from the Moro region. Additionally I have also added [[Aleem Said Ahmad Basher|Said Basher]] albeit he is a national Islamic imam, in to accompany the existing Roman Catholic priests ([[Pedro Calungsod]] and [[Francisca del Espíritu Santo Fuentes]]). This equalizes it, two Roman Catholics and two Muslims. |
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== Some of these People in the images gotta go == |
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Also, I have put [[Jesús A. Villamor]] since he was a prominent Filipino fighter during World War II. |
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The old mosaic was much better and needs to be restored. There needs to be an equal distribution of ancient Filipinos, colonial people and modern-day. |
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Any opposing opinions, objections should be discussed on this section. [[User:PacificWarrior101|PacificWarrior101]] ([[User talk:PacificWarrior101|talk]]) 16:56, 19 May 2014 (UTC)PacificWarrior101 |
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== Regions with significant populations (2014-9 revision) == |
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one of the factors peoples assume Filipinos are not Asians is from physical appearance that does not have the typical Asian features and their culture in the adoption of the Spanish have in common with Latin American countries and islands in the south pasific. Lambertin |
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Seeing a problem with some of the figures in this list, I [[WP:BOLD]]ly revised the whole list. For those who want to check out my changes, generally what I did was this: |
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== Only 3.6% of Filipinos have European blood is false. It's a myth == |
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#I located the latest "Stock Estimate of Overseas Filipinos" [http://www.cfo.gov.ph/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1340:stock-estimate-of-overseas-filipinos&catid=134 here]. It was the 2012 estimate [http://www.cfo.gov.ph/images/stories/pdf/StockEstimate2012.pdf here] |
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#I tried to verify each figure in the list using the source cited for it |
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#If I was able to verify the figure, I compared it with the Stock Estimate figure and made a judgement about which figure to use |
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#If I was not able to verify the figure in the list, I used the stock estimate figure |
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#I then manually sorted the list into order by the population figure |
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#I then compared the sorted list with figures in the 2012 stock estimate, adding entries from the stock estimate into the list (I added Singapore, Brunei, Macau, Jordan, Algeria, Angola, Equatorial Guinea, perhaps others, using "xx" for the inserted number of the item) |
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#I then renumbered the list items sequentially, removing items numbered higher than 35 from the list (the template currently displays only 32 entries) |
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There are some obvious problems with this |
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The "only 3.6%" of Filipinos have European blood clause has been discussed over and over again across various forums in the internet and from reading on the various discussions about it one can gain the following conclusions. |
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* Using the stock guide figure counts only [[Philippine Overseas Employment Administration|POEA]] Filipinos in a country. This is probably close to correct for most countries, and wildly incorrect for some countries. |
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* Figures from some other sources are problematic. For example, the Australia figure is for persons in Australia who were born in the Philippines. This miscounts non-filipinos born in the Philippines who happen to reside in Australia as Filipinos, and miscounts Filipinos born in Australia as non-filipinos. |
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But then, we're looking for reasonable estimates with source support, not exact headcount figures. [[User:Wtmitchell|Wtmitchell]] [[User talk:Wtmitchell|(talk)]] <small>(earlier ''Boracay Bill'')</small> 21:36, 23 July 2014 (UTC) |
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==Move discussion in progress== |
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1) The methodology by which they concluded that only 3.6% of Filipinos are European is woefully inaccurate firstly because they only sampled 28 individuals from a single place out of an estimated 98 Million Filipinos. A sample size of 28 to represent a population of 98 Million doesn't even pass the margin of error requirement. |
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There is a move discussion in progress on [[Talk:Belizean people#Requested move 2 April 2015 |Talk:Belizean people]] which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. <!-- Talk:Belizean people crosspost --> —[[User:RMCD bot|RMCD bot]] 12:59, 2 April 2015 (UTC) |
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2) The study was not meant to describe the whole genome of a population only the Y chromosomes of a select number of individuals [By which an average of 3.6% European admixture was culled from all the people they sampled ] Even if it were true for those involved in the study it isn't completely true because the mitochondrial and X chromosome genetic materials were summarily ignored. |
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3) The haphazardly done and minuscule-sampled study conflicts with historical scholarship. |
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Books written in the Spanish era by Frenchmen and by Spanish census takers themselves record that at least 1/3 of the population of the island of Luzon (The most populous island) had varying degrees of Spanish ancestry [From Tornatras to full Peninsulares] their descendants would thus number among the millions today, a conservative 10-12 million. Yet the 3.6% assumption conflicts with that (Considering that most of the samples were taken in the south not in Luzon) |
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4) Other genetic findings conflict this. [http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/single/?p=1158253&t=5200186 Genetic studies done by members of "23forme" Genome study group] yield that 75% of Filipinos possess European genetic markers and the average amount of European genes among the 75% is 4.8% of their total genome (The dilution of European genes among those who possessed it is understandable considering it was Latinos [Who were already mixed with Amerindians] who emigrated en masse to the Philippines not the Spaniards [Research Viceroyalty of New Spain]) |
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Thus, considering this, I would like to request that we either remove the mythological "only 3.6% of Filipino have any European blood" in wikipedia or we update the information according to modern research. |
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Thank You Very Much. |
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[[User:Gintong Liwanag Ng Araw|Gintong Liwanag Ng Araw]] ([[User talk:Gintong Liwanag Ng Araw|talk]]) 12:42, 16 September 2013 (UTC) |
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:I've been saying the same thing for a while now. 3.6% is a completely ridiculous conclusion. A sample size of 28 people from a country with more or less a hundred million people is like stopping a random bus in the US and then using the ethnicities of its passengers to determine the general ethnic percentages of the entire United States. |
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:More importantly, this particular study was NOT about Filipinos or the Philippines in general. Neither did the study itself conclude that the 3.6% applied to the entire country, it specifically only applied that conclusion to the actual sample, i.e. ''only to the 28 people''. The study makes no claims on the rest of the population. Extending the 3.6% to the entire population is conjecture. |
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:I would support removing it completely until a better study can be found. I would recommend you bring this up in [[WP:Tambayan Philippines]], as this particular tidbit has been replicated in virtually every article which talks about ethnicities in the Philippines.-- <small>[[User:Obsidian Soul|<font color=0>'''O'''</font><font color=gray>BSIDIAN</font>]]</small><font size="3" face =times new roman>†</font><small>[[User talk:Obsidian Soul|<font color=0>'''S'''</font><font color=gray>OUL</font>]]</small> 16:01, 16 September 2013 (UTC) |
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:: Actually , I have tried removing and explaining that that 3.6% is a mythh across Wikipedia's articles but people still keep reverting, returning and citing it back like an annoying ex-girlfriend who want to cling to you. Hopefully by putting this in the Tambayan forum we can resolve this once and for all. You are welcomed to comment on it here. |
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Tambayan_Philippines |
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Thank for your support and suggestion Obsidian Soul. I might continue to need it since there might be still 3.6% adherents even in Tambayan Philippines. |
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[[User:Gintong Liwanag Ng Araw|Gintong Liwanag Ng Araw]] ([[User talk:Gintong Liwanag Ng Araw|talk]]) 04:50, 17 September 2013 (UTC) |
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== Asking to change the description to make Filipino people as a national and cultural identity. == |
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Filipino is anyone that is born in the Philippines, anyone born outside of the Philippines that has acquired Philippine citizenship, or identifies oneself with Filipino culture. Filipino is a cultural and national identity. |
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The Philippines contains many different ethnic groups. A Filipino is not necessarily of pure Austronesian descent. There is a significant and increasing amount of Filipinos that have non-Philippine ethnic ancestry, such as Chinese, Spanish and varieties of Americans of African or European descent. |
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[[User:Lazyazian|Lazyazian]] ([[User talk:Lazyazian|talk]]) 07:25, 29 September 2013 (UTC) |
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:The term "Filipino" is still primarily of ethnic identity similar to say [[Irish people]] or [[Japanese people]], rather than a national one as in primarily immigrant countries like [[American people]] or [[Australian people]]. Non-Austronesian Filipinos are still minorities. Thus changing this article to a national identity as is done for Americans would give it improper weight. |
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:It would be better to discuss non-Austronesian Filipinos in separate articles or as a subsection to articles which are more clearly about national identity, like the articles on the [[Philippines]] or [[Demographics of the Philippines]]. This is the same thing done for American minorities (e.g. [[Filipino American]]). |
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:We already have one such article even for one of the largest non-Austronesian Filipino minorities - the [[Chinese Filipino]]s. -- <small>[[User:Obsidian Soul|<font color=0>'''O'''</font><font color=gray>BSIDIAN</font>]]</small><font size="3" face =times new roman>†</font><small>[[User talk:Obsidian Soul|<font color=0>'''S'''</font><font color=gray>OUL</font>]]</small> 10:22, 12 October 2013 (UTC) |
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== Arabic language == |
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I can't understand why users here insist to include Arabic language!! it's not an official for them nor do speak Arabic!. Indeed some of them trying to learn for quranic and islamic studies but that does not mean Filipino people speak it. many countries like Pakistan and India learn Arabic for the studies, is it included an official for them? could we open an open discussion here please? --[[User:Georgethewriter|George the writer]] ([[User talk:Georgethewriter|talk]]) 18:01, 24 October 2013 (UTC) |
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:It's obvious and very clear that Filipino do not speak eachother in arabic. I have discussed user Obsidian Soul about it at the top of the page.--[[User:Georgethewriter|George the writer]] ([[User talk:Georgethewriter|talk]]) 08:20, 25 October 2013 (UTC) |
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== definition == |
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There's something strange with how this article works... if I take the population number given here, there is no room for there to be [[Tagalog people]], [[Moro people]], [[Visayan people]], etc. in the Philippines! |
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I ''think'' what's probably going on here is that the article's stats comes from the [[National Statistics Office (Philippines)|NSO]] Philippine census does not actually classify for ethnicity? In any case, it seems to me the Filipinos are not not nearly as unified a group as the article would lead one to believe, since AFAICT that encompass all Austronesian ethnolinguistic groups native to the Philippines, several of which are considered distinct from each others elsewhere in the encyclopedia. I think it is especially telling in that regard that [[Austronesian peoples]] separate the people of the Philippines in several groups. |
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Clearly the definition is not useless: it separate a set of peoples united by common traits that consider themselves related—by opposition to the Melanesian groups (e.g. the [[Aeta people]]) and various people of more recent descent. It doesn't help, of course, that "Filipino" is also in practice the general term for the citizenship in addition to ethnic group, as demonstrated by [[Chinese Filipino]]. I guess what I'm aiming for is that the idea of the "Filipino as an ethnic group" seems to be a relatively recent construct (in a country that is otherwise clearly not a [[nation state]]). |
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Maybe the article could be renamed to Filipino peoples and the introduction reworked to reflect the situation more closely? [[User:Circeus|Circéus]] ([[User talk:Circeus|talk]]) 01:32, 17 November 2013 (UTC) |
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:"Not a nation state"? How so? An [[ethnic group]] is not restricted to the smallest linguistic grouping or by genetic ancestry. Though Filipinos are indeed composed of several smaller ethnolinguistic groups, most are part of the [[Philippine languages|Philippine]] branch of the Austronesian language family indigenous to the islands. This includes the [[Negrito]] groups in the Philippines, whose languages and culture are still Austronesian despite differences in genetic ancestry, and the [[Moro people|Moros]] of southwestern Mindanao who though Muslim, are still closely related culturally and linguistically to the [[Visayans]] and the [[Lumad]] ethnic groups. |
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:The Philippines is [[Ethnic groups in the Philippines|multiethnic]], yes, but it is also strongly homogenous in terms of culture. Virtually all traces of the previous cultural distinctions from smaller chiefdoms, etc. were erased during the Spanish colonial rule. It was further diluted by large scale inter-island migrations in the 20th century, leading to the cultural assimilation of most of the remaining non-Hispanized [[Indigenous peoples of the Philippines]]. A Visayan and a Tagalog might speak different languages, but everything else is virtually the same. Which is why Filipinos used to think the different languages were merely "dialects". Don't base apparent cultural unity by linguistic classification. |
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:I strongly oppose moving this to "Filipino peoples", for that reason. The distinctions are simply not strong enough to merit that. In contrast to, say, Malaysians, who strongly distinguish between Ethnic Malays and their smaller ethnic groupings. "Filipino" is basically a [[cultural identity]], rather than simply citizenship or an ancestral grouping. It is recent, yes, as the term "Filipino" itelf was used exclusively for full-blooded Spaniards born in the islands prior to Philippine independence from Spain. But that doesn't preclude [[ethnogenesis]]. What matters is its current usage, and it is indeed used in the sense of an ethnic group. |
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:Most importantly, just because '''X people''' is made up of '''Y people''' and '''Z people''', doesn't automatically mean that you have to call it '''X peoples''', cf. [[American people]]. |
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:As for population numbers, that's either numbers from different censuses taken at different times, or people with ancestry from multiple groups identifying for several (e.g. a half-Tagalog, half-Ilocano who identifies as both). The Philippine census does not classify for ancestry in the sense that it does not ask you if you have Chinese or Spanish ancestors. But it does ask for your native language which can be used to quantify the approximate number of people belonging to the largest ethnic groups. |
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:That said, I have removed the "Austronesian" part of the original heading, as you do have a point regarding Filipinos who are not of Austronesian ancestry. I have also removed the paragraphs on etymology and orthography to its own section. As well as removed the infamous 3.6% study as it is [[WP:UNDUE]] there and per the previous discussion above. The lead still requires a lot of work for it to be a summary of the contents. Its application to citizenship and nationality needs to be discussed in the lead section as well, but it should not be restricted to them per usage.-- <small>[[User:Obsidian Soul|<font color=0>'''O'''</font><font color=gray>BSIDIAN</font>]]</small><font size="3" face =times new roman>†</font><small>[[User talk:Obsidian Soul|<font color=0>'''S'''</font><font color=gray>OUL</font>]]</small> 12:02, 18 November 2013 (UTC) |
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Revert adding sports figures to the infobox photo
[edit]in this revert I was intending to remove just Tim Tebow, as my understanding is that he is not Filipino. I inadvertantly removed several others who are Filipino as well, though. I'll leave it to other editors to restore those photos if that is appropriate. It seems to me as if the addition ought to have gotten consensus here before being done. I haven't followed it, but hasn't there been quite a bit of "churn" in the infobox photos here? Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 08:11, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
What's this Mestizo bias in the infobox?
[edit]So it's come to my attention that somebody keeps reverting my edits, and replacing them with every single random Mestizo Filipino they can find. Listen, there are like already four Mestizos in this infobox, and perhaps Sultan Kudarat's legitimacy comes to the fact that he was proclaimed a Philippine national hero by Ferdinand Marcos, probably the ONLY one as a native of Mindanao.
You might as well rename this article "Catholic Mestizos of Southeast Asia" if you are going to fill the infobox with 7/10 Mestizo Catholics. PacificWarrior101 (talk) 05:00, 18 April 2014 (UTC)PacificWarrior101
Here we go again, same idiot reverting my changes in a pathetic attempt to make Filipinos look Hispanic. PacificWarrior101 (talk) 02:49, 4 May 2014 (UTC)PacificWarrior101
I Have Made Changes to the Images/Mosaic Discussion Section
[edit]As you people have known, a huge edit war took place between I and some IP user from Britain, faking to be an embassy worker and a worker for the King of Spain. So here is a section, for discussions regarding the people on the mosaic and infobox simply to prevent another huge edit war from taking place.
So, I have added Sultan Kudarat in favor of José María of Manila, since is he the only Philippine national hero from the Moro region. Additionally I have also added Said Basher albeit he is a national Islamic imam, in to accompany the existing Roman Catholic priests (Pedro Calungsod and Francisca del Espíritu Santo Fuentes). This equalizes it, two Roman Catholics and two Muslims.
Also, I have put Jesús A. Villamor since he was a prominent Filipino fighter during World War II.
Any opposing opinions, objections should be discussed on this section. PacificWarrior101 (talk) 16:56, 19 May 2014 (UTC)PacificWarrior101
Regions with significant populations (2014-9 revision)
[edit]Seeing a problem with some of the figures in this list, I WP:BOLDly revised the whole list. For those who want to check out my changes, generally what I did was this:
- I located the latest "Stock Estimate of Overseas Filipinos" here. It was the 2012 estimate here
- I tried to verify each figure in the list using the source cited for it
- If I was able to verify the figure, I compared it with the Stock Estimate figure and made a judgement about which figure to use
- If I was not able to verify the figure in the list, I used the stock estimate figure
- I then manually sorted the list into order by the population figure
- I then compared the sorted list with figures in the 2012 stock estimate, adding entries from the stock estimate into the list (I added Singapore, Brunei, Macau, Jordan, Algeria, Angola, Equatorial Guinea, perhaps others, using "xx" for the inserted number of the item)
- I then renumbered the list items sequentially, removing items numbered higher than 35 from the list (the template currently displays only 32 entries)
There are some obvious problems with this
- Using the stock guide figure counts only POEA Filipinos in a country. This is probably close to correct for most countries, and wildly incorrect for some countries.
- Figures from some other sources are problematic. For example, the Australia figure is for persons in Australia who were born in the Philippines. This miscounts non-filipinos born in the Philippines who happen to reside in Australia as Filipinos, and miscounts Filipinos born in Australia as non-filipinos.
But then, we're looking for reasonable estimates with source support, not exact headcount figures. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 21:36, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
Move discussion in progress
[edit]There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Belizean people which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 12:59, 2 April 2015 (UTC)