Talk:Zara Tindall

Untitled section

Will do, if I can find an authoritative one which is proving difficult; that was why I used the word "suggest".Meltingpot (talk) 13:19, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

I see forum posts here saying "she has an ITEC diploma in Equine Sports Massage for which she would have needed a qualification in human massage. She used to be listed on the ESMA website as a practitioner but can't see her on there anymore and never saw her at any CPD meetings so maybe her registration has lapsed." and "She did the Mary Bromily equine massage course." This site is sligtly better, but probably not WP:RS. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:27, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Equine? physiotherapist

I wasn't able to read the Telegraph link because it was behind a paywall, but other links I've seen suggest that she trained in equine rather than human physiotherapy so I've changed the text to reflect that. Meltingpot (talk) 00:00, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Please supply sources. DrKay (talk) 08:03, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Tatler says here (Sept 2022): "She secured a place on Exeter’s physiotherapy course the following year, where she specialised in equine physiotherapy." So in answer to Meltingpot, I think the basic course at the University of Exeter will have been based on human physiology, but there may have been an optional specialism in equine aspects. As far as I know, there is no UK qualification in "Equine physiotherapy". 205.239.40.3 (talk) 10:22, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Children's names?

The eldest of Tindall's three children was 8 years old yesterday. Unsurprisingly, none are themselves notable. Does WP:BLP not advise against naming children? And, even if they are named in the text, should they also be named in the infobox? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:30, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi, they are not notable but I still think they are important. The Queen has 4 children, 8 grandchildren and 12 great-grandchildren. I think it could be interesting for the viewer to know those details and in this way they more easily get access to the information. Drierlodge (talk) 16:38, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Well, I see that all three are named (although without any sources) at Elizabeth II, so perhaps my question is a waste of time. I had just thought that the WP:BLP provisions for the protection of children would apply equally to Royal children as to any others. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:05, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Coronet

should there be a coronet under Tindalls arms as a grandchild of a sovereign Jord656 (talk) 08:58, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Are there any sources? Looking at the description for those of her brother Peter Phillips, that has two sources. His does not say "entitled", but also does not appear? Why are they not used? Thanks. 86.187.228.183 (talk) 09:22, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

The source is given in the section. DrKay (talk) 09:58, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for now adding that source. I searched the source (which is also used at Peter Philips) for the word "coronet", but got no results. So page 14 doesn't explicitly say this, it just shows an image? (although sometimes for me page 14 is not even visible on line). It might be better if the reference sources and positions, across the two articles (and indeed for all the grandchildren), were made consistent. But why are the coronets not used? As they are not used, I'm really not sure why they are mentioned, as it leaves the reader in some confusion. Might it be better to reserve mention for a more generic article on the British Royal arms? 86.187.226.135 (talk) 10:28, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

There are different coronets for different members of the royal family, but as a female line grandchild of Queen Elizabeth II, Zara is entitled to wear the coronet of a female line grandchild of a monarch. As you stated King Charles is king, hence why i stated A monarch, in this case refering to E2R Jord656 (talk) 11:56, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronet Jord656 (talk) 11:57, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it's an image of her arms on a lozenge with a coronet, bottom right on page 14. Her father's, brother's and mother's marital arms are also shown. DrKay (talk) 13:15, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

So which arms are (more) correct? Has she made a conscious decision not to use the coronet? How does she ever actually use the arms anyway? Aren't they just of arcane historical interest? 86.187.175.116 (talk) 13:23, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

We havent commented on how Zara has used her arms what we have stated is that she is entitled to use a coronet with her arms. Irrespective of historical interest this entitlement is fact. Jord656 (talk) 13:34, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

So, is one more correct than the other? It may be "a fact", but it's a pretty useless one if the arms are never used anyway. Perhaps we did ought to report on "how Zara has used her arms"? That might be of more interest to the general reader. If she ever has used them, of course. 86.187.175.116 (talk) 13:41, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

If I can find a photo of the correct arms I will update it. Jord656 (talk) 14:02, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

And as soon as you start calling my country's hostory and traditions "Useless" means that i no longer wish to continue this conversation Jord656 (talk) 14:04, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

I've said nothing about your "country's hostory and traditions". I'm just suggesting that an image on a biographical article of something which that person has never used, might be seen as useless by the general reader. Those interested in heraldry might find it fascinating. 86.187.175.116 (talk) 14:18, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

this country has been built upon millenia of traditions and rituals and is an important part of the history of these great isles, telling us that one of those traditions is "a bit silly" is quite an insult. Jord656 (talk) 15:48, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Once again you miss the point. This encyclopaedia isn't built upon millennia of traditions and rituals. Kindly take your tub-thumping jingoism elsewhere. 86.187.170.188 (talk) 16:01, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

please stop the insults or I'll put a block request in Jord656 (talk) 16:12, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

That was a request, not an insult. So you admit the current image is "incorrect"? Just like the one at Peter Philips? I wish you well in finding a replacement "photo". But it might be easier to contact the original contributor at Commons User:Sodacan, who seems to be still active, and ask them to simply update it. In the meantime you might like to hunt for a source that describes how the coat of arms is used, or has ever been used, by Philips herself. Kind regards. 86.187.170.188 (talk) 16:25, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

it is correct, end of story. Zara as a granddaughter of Queen Elizabeth II is entitled to the coronet and it should be mounted on the coat of arm. Jord656 (talk) 17:30, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Which is correct? This article, or page 14 of Norwich (1992)? And what about the five grandchildren of Charles III - when to they get a coat of arms (with a coronet)? 86.187.172.44 (talk) 17:44, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

they will get the royal coat of arm differenced, usually the College of Arms announces the coat of arms when they turn 18. There is a link above to the wiki page for coronets and who's entitled. Jord656 (talk) 17:54, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

https://web.archive.org/web/20060415084228/http://www.geocities.com/noelcox/coronets.htm Jord656 (talk) 17:55, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

"On his 18th birthday, Harry was granted his own personal coat of arms, consisting of the Arms of the Sovereign in right of the United Kingdom with a Label for difference." Prince Harry granted coat of arms as grandchild of a sovereign on his 18th birthday Jord656 (talk) 17:59, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

That looks like a better source than page 14 of Norwich (1992), assuming it is as reliable. But does it explicitly state that all grandchildren of a monarch are entitled to the coronet? Which of the five types of coronet is it? I see that Princess Beatrice and Princess Eugenie both have coronets on the articles. In fact their coats of arms look bigger. But Lady Louise Windsor does not seem to have anything. 86.187.172.44 (talk) 18:08, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

seriously what more can I do, nothing seems to please you? I really don't have time to try and convince a stranger that the College of Arm is correct. Jord656 (talk) 18:15, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Firstly, Eugenie and Beatrice will have a different coronet as male line grandchildren. Lady Louise Windsor was not 18 when the article was published. Zara will have the coronet of a female line grandchild of a monarch. Jord656 (talk) 18:17, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

The same coronet that King Charles was eligible for when he was born Jord656 (talk) 18:18, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Seriously, I'm not interested in anyone "pleasing me", least of all your good self. I'm only asking questions in an attempt to clarify this article and similar ones. Why should I be "a stranger" - if The Double Tressure, the Journal of The Heraldry Society of Scotland is reliable, then fine. But I'd still like to know which part of that source supports the claim. I think other readers might appreciate that too. 86.187.172.44 (talk) 18:33, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, I deleted the source of the coronet. The reason why I deleted it before it got restored is because currently Charles III is King and Zara's mother is Anne. 2601:40A:8400:5A40:90F0:D518:AC0A:80D8 (talk) 21:58, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Are you disputing the fact that Zara is a grandchild of a monarch? Jord656 (talk) 02:47, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

She is not a grandchild of the monarch nowadays, per se. But she was prior to Queen Elizabeth II's death. Now, she is the niece of the current Monarch (Charles III, whose sister is Anne, whose daughter is Zara). 2601:40A:8400:5A40:90F0:D518:AC0A:80D8 (talk) 13:28, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

I never stated she was grandchild of the monarch, I stated that Zara is grandchild of a monarch, she gets her eligibility from being a grandchild of a monarch Jord656 (talk) 16:04, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Illustration

Celia Homeford, you seem to know what you are doing. The Notes for the arms currently say: "Tindall bears her father's arms on a lozenge with a coronet of a grandchild of a sovereign."

1. No coronet is shown. Does the image need to be updated?
2. Does any distinction need to be made between different types of coronet, e.g. for male/female descendants of the sovereign?

Many thanks for your help. 205.239.40.3 (talk) 14:50, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

The coronet shown in the book is one of strawberry leaves and fleur-de-lys, which is specific for children of sovereign's daughters. Celia Homeford (talk) 14:59, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. So does the illustration here need to match that one? And/or should the notes explain that distinction? 205.239.40.3 (talk) 15:04, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/prince_highness_docs.htm#Warrant_of_Nov_19_1917 Jord656 (talk) 16:10, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Jord656, do you intend to offer any explanation for this link? Thanks. 86.187.239.160 (talk) 19:34, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

The link supports the fact that Zara is entitled to a coronet and what coronet Jord656 (talk) 19:36, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Does the existing source of Norwich (1992) not already fully support that claim? 86.187.239.160 (talk) 19:39, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

apparently not, see thread above Jord656 (talk) 19:41, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

I wonder could you quote the portion of your source that provides this support? Is heraldica.org considered a WP:RS? I see it is labelled "Copyright © 1995-2003, François R. Velde". 86.187.239.160 (talk) 19:49, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

I'll just remove it. Jord656 (talk) 20:02, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, so it doesn't support the claim? 86.187.239.160 (talk) 20:07, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

it does but I have spent way to much time on this and really don't have a desire to continue Jord656 (talk) 20:26, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

"and to the sons and daughters of the daughters of us and of our predecessors and of our successors a coronet composed of four fleurs-de-lis and four strawberry leaves to be borne and used by them being subjects of these our realms," Jord656 (talk) 20:27, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. If you decide to add this as another source, I suggest you add that as a quote, as the source is quite a long one. And possibly the year that this was published. So it sounds like only the children of Anne, Princess Royal are entitled to have this style of coronet on their coat of arms. I'm still not sure why the text and the illustration here don't match. 86.187.239.160 (talk) 20:41, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

at present yes only Princess Anne's children but eventually Princess Charlotte's too Jord656 (talk) 20:54, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes, assuming William, Prince of Wales becomes king. But then the descriptions of the coats of arms for both Princess Beatrice and Princess Eugenie are wrong. But perhaps you have spent way to much time on this and really don't have a desire to continue. 86.187.239.160 (talk) 21:14, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Beatrice and Eugenie don't have the same coronet as they are grandchildren through a male line of a monarch, so they along with Lady Louise and Earl of Wessex and The Sussex estates will have the same coronet, where Mark Philips and Zara Tindall have the coronet of a female line descendant Jord656 (talk) 21:21, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

"the daughters of the sons other than the heir apparent and of the brothers of us and of our predecessors and of our successors a coronet composed of four crosses pattee and four strawberry leaves" Jord656 (talk) 21:23, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

To whom does this apply? Perhaps you know what crosses pattee means. I'm still intrigued as to whether Tindall ever uses these arms or whether they are just an historical remnant. Also why the coronet is not described or shown at Peter Phillips.86.187.239.160 (talk) 21:50, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm not the encyclopedia and presumably don't have all the answers that you seek, and I don't understand why people are expecting me to spend hours answering questions when they have Google. Jord656 (talk) 02:35, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps people have assumed you are some kind of expert. Just answering the first question would be a help. I'm not even sure I understand what that quotation means. Or it might just be irrelevant. Without any sort of context, it's hard to make a judgement. Google or no Google. 86.187.172.5 (talk) 07:25, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

crossess patee are the crosses that line the upper rim of the coronet. And the citation is next ti Mark Philips description, 3rdly crown have arches where coronets do not Jord656 (talk) 07:50, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

The illustrations at the respective articles for Beatrice and Eugenie seem to show a crown, not a coronet. 86.187.239.160 (talk) 21:43, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

then that should be raised on the respective talk pages Jord656 (talk) 21:46, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

I've already raised it at each. 86.187.239.160 (talk) 21:51, 12 June 2023 (UTC)