Talk:Habr Awal

Semi-protected edit request on 10 July 2017

DrJamesalta (talk) 03:24, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. @DrJamesalta: You need to be specific about the changes to be made and you need to cite reliable sources to support the change. Also, you can't just try to blank the article claiming the sources cited are "fake news". If you really have concerns about the sources, discuss them here. —C.Fred (talk) 03:34, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 July 2017

90.225.33.66 (talk) 03:50, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Habar Awal Sa'ad Musse Abdiarhman Sa'ad Abdalle Sa'ad Hassan Sa'ad Abdalle Hassan Isaaq Sa'ad Makahil Isaaq Mohammed Isaaq (Abbas) Isse Isaaq Musse (Ase) Isaaq Yeesif Isaaq Abokor Isaaq Jibril Abokor Hussein Abokor Abdalle Abokor Ugaadh Abokor Isse Musse Adan Isse Abokor Isse Idarys Isse Mohammed Isse Jibril Mohammed Hassan Mohammed Afgab Musse Eli musse Egalle Musse Abdalle Musse

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 04:02, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Ciise Muuse

Linkjan2014 I think you and Cosbey completely neglected the Ciise Muuse in the clan tree section , prominent Ciise Muuse sub clans like the The Reer Wacays , Reer Sahal , Adiraxaan Muuse , Dhegori and deryahan sub clans are totally missing , even Cigaal's sub clan the Reer Baale is missing lol , instead you guys focused more on the Sacad Muuse sub sub sub clans. C'mon guys , be fair. You have no excuse for this , especially when the ciise muuse sub clans are on the same site you used as a source for the Sacad Muuse sub clans. GeelJire (talk) 03:56, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

GeelJire, I didn't post the source for the subclans, Cosbey did. No clue why I am being mentioned here. I'm not knowledgeable on the Isse Muuse subclans, so I left it at an aggregate level for a more knowledgeble user to edit. I had the detailed subclans for Sacad Muuse since I am knowledgeable on them but Cosbey keeps deleting them and doesn't listen/respond to my messages.

By the way, if you havent' already noticed I'm clearly not affiliated with Cosbey. If you look at the edit history of this page you can see I've been editing it for a lot longer and have been nothing but fair and impartial and don't engage in edit warring/ vandalism and always follow the rules/best practices of Wikipedia.

Finally, I've applied for this page to be semi-protected from edits, I suspect that there are users registering with multiple accounts in order to troll. I'm tired of putting hard work in the page only to have it deleted for no reason. I'm going to start reporting any unexplained deletions from now on. Linkjan2014 (talk) 04:11, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Linkjan2014 Oh ok, Apologies then sxb , the message above only applies to Cosbey then, but I doubt he will reply as he doesn't co-operate and avoids discussion. GeelJire (talk) 05:02, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes I do cooperate and I've replied to you many times but you don't reply back and listen you focused on Hussain Abokor so then you should apply that to yourself and not only me. Also, I said let's keep it within Abokor branch, read my last message.

Cosbey Sxb , This is not relevant to the clan tree but could you Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date , so it's easier to tell your comments from others. Remember don't add the brackets , just the 4 tildes inbetween them , and do it at the end of your message GeelJire (talk) 01:33, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

3000 habar awal horsemen , downfall of dervish

Cosbey The source you cited for the claim of "3000 habar awal horsemen" doesn't contain anything on the fall of the dervish state let alone any mention of 3000 Habar awal horsemen. I would like to discuss this contention of ours properly instead of engaging in edit wars , lets settle this otherwise we are going to have involve other editors , weliba qaar aan Soomaali ahayn GeelJire (talk) 01:36, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 March 2018

Issa Musse (talk) 15:13, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: According to the page's protection level you should be able to edit the page yourself. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. qwerty6811 :-) Chat Ping me 15:27, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Other Isaaq groups?

Linkjan2014 Iska Waran sxb , just wanted a minor thing clarified. In the infobox that lists "Related ethnic groups" it has all members of Habar Magaadle , and Habar Jeclo , but still says "Other Isaaq groups". Are there other Isaaq clans other than those? , or are Cibraan and Sanbuur being seperated from the Habar Jeclo confederation?. I'm aware that they are actually stand alone sub clans but come under the Habar Jeclo umbrella for isbahaysi purposes. GeelJire (talk) 12:17, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Nabad sxb Geeljire,

This is a very good question. I believe that Sanbuur and Cimraan are standalone clans yes, they don't fall under Habar Jeclo but rather under the Habar Habusheed confederation.

So we Have in Isaaq the following.

Habar Magaadle 1. Ayup 2. Awal 2. Garhajis 3. Arap

and Habar Habusheed is 1. Toljecle 2. Cimraan 3. Sanbuur 4. Habar Jeclo

I will make the edits to both the Awal and Garhajis pages including the other Habar Habusheed clans. Thanks for pointing this out inadeer.

Linkjan2014 (talk) 06:33, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Linkjan2014 Thanks for the clarification inadeer , it's just that usually people refer to all the Habar habuusheed clans collectively as Habar Jeclo , even though Habar jeclo is just one segment of H.H , this confused me a bit since i thought the "Habar Jeclo" in the infobox was referring to all H.H clans, for a minute i was thinking who are these Isaaq sub clans you never heard of lol, but then i guessed it only refered to the Maxamed and Muuse Abokor clans and the others were probably Cibraan ,Sanbuur , and toljecle, , i guessed right.

Again , thanks. GeelJire (talk) 00:52, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Stop vandalisng the article and using multiple accounts

Sccsiciidafrica Cease your vandalism , or you'll leave me no choice but to report you. Also , using multiple accounts and sockpuppeting is against Wikipedia rules, I know you're the same person as Issa Musse , your edits betray you , you obviously have an agenda and are spreading unsourced misinformation about your clan.

Sxb Linkjan2014 i'm sure you're as suspicious as me , as we can both see he is an Ciise Muuse supremacist who over inflates his clans numbers purposefully and constantly vandalises our articles , these two users are clearly the same person. He also made edits on the Garhajis "related ethnic groups" info box and editied in "Isse Musse" while not logged into his Issa Musse account. Here is his IP account and the edits he made https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/161.52.14.200 , it's evident that he is sockpuppeting to disrupt , vandalise and promote his clan.GeelJire (talk) 03:07, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Should this article be merged with the Isaaq Article?

The Habr Awal is a sub-clan of the Isaaq. If a wikipedia article is created for this sub-clan then editors will result creating other wikipedia articles for other sub-clans. This would not benefit the wikipedia reads as the end result would be a wikipedia page for every Somali sub-clan. Additionally, all the information that is provided in this article is more or less the same as that of the Isaaq Article. If editors believe some of the information on this article should be kept it, it should transferred to the Isaaq article.Shirshore (talk) 04:38, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Mo Farah "best marathon runner in the world"?

Who on earth put in that claim, that Mo Farah is considered the best runner in the world? He's not even among the top 10 in the world! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.134.3.128 (talk) 02:18, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Add

Add Ali Jibril to Hussein Abokor dia group, he is Ismail Jibril big brother Hormooddhiil (talk) 03:41, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:

• Berbera Mosque Engraving.jpg
• Habr Awal farmer.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:23, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Traditional Leadership Section

Text body requesting to be added below

Garaads & Sultans of the Habr Awal

The Habr Awal have a long tradition of leadership and are led by a Sultan from the Ahmed Abdalla branch - a numerous subclan of Saad Musa that mainly reside in Ethiopia. Historically preferring to use the native term Garaad like the Warsangeli, both clans have since changed the name of the title to Suldaan although the role is identical.The first Garaad Biniin was crowned around a similar time as the first Habr Yunis Sultan Diriiye Ainasha, with both of these large subclans breaking from the tutelage of the Eidagale who are the wider leaders of the Isaaq. Following his death the Habr Awal did not crown a new Garaad for several years as Biniin's heirs were too young, with Garaad Abdalla being crowned when he came of age. Fighting in the southern limits of Habr Awal territory to protect the clan against it's enemies and fighting off raids. In one incident he narrowly avoiding a Jidwaaq surprise attack as the Ahmed Abdalla rallied quickly and forced the raiders to flee.

	Name	Reign From	Reign Till
1	Garaad Biniin (first Garaad)
2	Garaad Abdalla Garaad Biniin
3	Garaad Askar Garaad Abdalla
4	Garaad Diriiye Garaad Abdalla
5	Sultan Abdulrahman Garaad Diriiye (adopted Sultan title)
6	Sultan Abdillahi Sultan Abdulrahman
7	Sultan Abdirizaq Sultan Abdillahi
8	Sultan Hassan Sultan Abdillahi

Future Garaad Askar photographed in 1895

Garaad Abdalla served for several decades and was received by travelling British officials near the southern limit of the protectorate in 1894 concerning expansion by General Ras Makonen on behalf of Menelik II.Garaad Abdalla alongside many other leaders in British Somaliland such as Sultan Deria Hassan and Sheikh Madar were worried about a devastating raid by the Abyssinian forces aimed at the burgeoning town Hargeisa and it's environs. The Garaad was contacted by Makonen just two years later asking him and the Habr Awal to join the Ethiopian Empire but was rebuffed.. Garaad Abdalla was approached by the Sultan of Habr Yunis when they had faced a drought, the Habr Yunis requested access to Habr Awal wells to water. Abdalla granted the request but some members of his clan thought he was too generous and helping the Habr Yunis at the expense of the wellbeing of their own stock. Chief amongst these people was his 15 year old Askar. When some of the Habr Yunis party came to water, Askar stepped in between the well and the men barring them access. He was reprimanded for his foolishness and told to step aside and obey his father's wishes. Enraged Askar stabbed the man who reprimanded him and war almost broke out at this action.

A wise Habr Awal bard from Bulhar named Aami stood and recited a gabay

The words too many have already been spoken about Yunis' foolish words

But righteous judgement pious to you according to ancient custom, bringing peace and (firmly) like a mountain

Very close to you lurk people, you enemies, from primeval times their commemorating a feud

If the time came when you were blinded by the quarrel, you would not respect it

Without hesitation, they suddenly fell upon you

All hostile tribes have heard the news of your quarrel

Like vultures, they all look greedily at your flesh!

The parties were moved by his words and mediated their dispute. Garaad Abdalla gave the hand of one of his daughters to the poet as a reward for his efforts.Following Abdalla's death, his eldest son Askar succeeded him as Garaad. Askar was a skilled horseman and fought in offensive with the southern sections of the clan against the Dervish who had began raiding Habr Awal and other clans in the region. Sheikh Madar rallied the northern sections of the Habr Awal who unlike the Ahmed Abdalla and a few others, did reside mainly inside the borders of British Somaliland.Following Askaar's death his younger brother Diriiye took the mantle of Garaad and unlike his brother and father was more focused on the concerns of the Habr Awal community as a period of relative peace had set in following the defeat of the Dervishes, decreasing the need for fighting. Diriiye was faced with a parallel challenger to his role as Garaad and the Habr Awal rallied behind him and rebuffed the pretender.

With Diriiye's eventual death, his son Abdulrahman was crowned and the first Habr Awal leader to style himself as 'Sultan' rather than Garaad. Abdulrahman was very much like his father however was much more active in protectorate affairs. When the Eidagale attempted to raid the Issa Musa, a son of the Habr Yunis Sultan joined the raid and when the raiders were pursued he was killed. The Sultan of the Habr Yunis approached Abdulrahman to resolve the dispute and wanted him to compel the Issa Musa to pay mag for the Sultan's son. According to traditional Somali xeer restitution is not payed when one is killed in self defense. So the Issa Musa refused and banged their shields in disproval of Abdulrahman's judgement.

Cismaan Haariyey a poet stood and recited the following geeraar reaffirming his respect but disagreeing with Sultan Abdulrahman. After this the Issa Musa would leave and go on to crown their first Sultan, Sultan Koshin in 1949 marking their independence from their larger Saad Musa brethren.

The man who stands in wealth

Who harvests the millet

The man who’s digging for death

And the ones looking after the camels

Oh Suldaan think about it

Can they agree?

Oh Suldaan I have not insulted you

And I am not reprimanding you

I am not compensating you for shame

I expect no wealth from you

The respect we give you

The beautiful young women

We will never take back from you

Men who were like you

Who we put leaves on as king

Are keeping back

The Muuse Subeer people

In the year 1955, Sultan Abdulrahman Deria was a member of a 4 delegation team of politicians and Sultans to London,United Kingdom. Their goal was to petition and pressure the British Government in returning lost treaty territory known as the 'Haud Reserve Area' ceded to Ethiopian Empire during the Anglo Ethiopian treaty of 1954.

Sultans Abdulrahman Deria and Abdillahi Deria in London 1955

In Imperial Policies and Nationalism in The Decolonization of Somaliland, 1954-1960, Historian Jama Mohamed writes:

The N.U.F. campaigned for the return of the territories both in Somaliland and abroad. In March 1955, for instance, a delegation consisting of Michael Mariano, Abokor Haji Farah and Abdi Dahir went to Mogadisho to win the support and co-operation of the nationalist groups in Somalia. And in February and May 1955 another delegation consisting of two traditional Sultans (Sultan Abdillahi Sultan Deria, and Sultan Abdulrahman Sultan Deria), and two Western-educated moderate politicians (Michael Mariano, Abdirahman Ali Mohamed Dubeh) visited London and New York. During their tour of London, they formally met and discussed the issue with the Secretary of State for the Colonies, Alan Lennox-Boyd. They told Lennox-Boyd about the 1885 Anglo-Somali treaties. Under the agreements, Michael Mariano stated, the British Government 'undertook never to cede, sell, mortgage or otherwise give for occupation, save to the British Government, any portion of the territory inhabited by them or being under their control'. But now the Somali people 'have heard that their land was being given to Ethiopia under an Anglo-Ethiopian Treaty of 1897'. That treaty, however, was 'in conflict' with the Anglo-Somali treaties 'which took precedence in time' over the 1897 Anglo-Ethiopian Treaty[.] The British Government had 'exceeded its powers when it concluded the 1897 Treaty and ... the 1897 Treaty was not binding on the tribes.' Sultan Abdillahi also added that the 1954 agreement was a 'great shock to the Somali people' since they had not been told about the negotiations, and since the British Government had been administering the area since 1941. The delegates requested, as Sultan Abdulrahman put it, the postponement of the implementation of the agreement to 'grant the delegation time to put up their case' in Parliament and in international organizations.

WanderingGeeljire (talk) 23:54, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

References

Photo Add Request

From Roland Bonaparte's collection

Ahmed Amar age 25 of the Issa Musa Habr Awal, photographed by Roland Bonaparte in 1890

Warsame Yunis of the Saad Musa Habr Awal, photographed by Roland Bonaparte in 1890

WanderingGeeljire (talk) 15:00, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 December 2020

Kindly be informed of the fact that "Ciise Isaaq Sacad" is not the same as "Ciise carab". This is musrepresentation of fact. Please remove the "Ciise Carab" in the brackets. Thanks 41.79.199.36 (talk) 02:12, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. h 14:14, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 May 2022

Change from:

• Abdurrahman Mahmoud Aidiid, He is the current Mayor of Hargeisa, the capital of the Republic of Somaliland.

To:

• Abdurrahman Mahmoud Aidiid, He is the former Mayor of Hargeisa, the capital of the Republic of Somaliland.

He’s not the current mayor, he’s the former mayor. Geesi97 (talk) 22:27, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

 Done. Aidan9382 _(talk) 06:02, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Dr Jama Musse Jama and other scholars from Habar Awal

I feel the Essa Mussa influential people in the contemporary times are not properly searched. This scholar profile Jama Musse Jama could have been linked for instance. An Ethnomathematician with long list of academic publications, but also founder of most influential cultural and artistic program of East Africa, the Hargeysa International Book Fair. Just a suggestion. 197.231.201.217 (talk) 21:35, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Subeyr Abdul Rahman sheikh ishaq bin Ahmed bin Muḥammad bin al-Ḥusayn bin 'Ali bin Muhammad bin Ḥamza bin 'Abdullah bin Ayyub bin Qasim bin Ahmad bin Ali bin Isa bin Ali Akbar bin Hasan al-Askari bin Ali al-Hadi bin Muhammad al-Jawad bin Ali al-Ridha bin Musa al-Kadhim bin Ja'far al-Sadiq bin Muhammad al-Baqir bin Ali Zayn Al-Abidin bin Husayn bin Ali bin Abi Talib al-Hashimi ALHASHIMI 1 (talk) 17:02, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Content and citation mismatch

Hi User:Hawkers994

I had a look at this source you provided: [[1]], the book is named Studies on Governance: Awdal region.

I had a thorough look in the book and couldn't find anything which supported the content that you provided in the article. I used the search bar to have a look at page 9 and it states: The Reer Nuur in eastern Awdal place premium relations with their neighbours, the Jibril Abukar. But this does not state that Isaaq live in Awdal. If you look at page 10, it states that the current boundary between Awdal and Maroodi Jeeh is east of Dilla which is frustrating for the Gadabuursi because it divides the Gadabuursi of Gabiley from the Gadabuursi of Awdal, so it states the opposite. Here is the direct link: [[2]].

So there is clearly a misunderstanding of the source WP:STICKTOSOURCE and possible WP:OR as it does not state the content you provided. If you can share any other citation that would be great.

MustafaO (talk) 10:19, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

It clearly states on source “ FOUND INSIDE - PAGE 9

... Haber - Awal has been in conflict with the Gadabuursi over land rights. The second area of Isaaq concern in Awdal has been along the coast in Luqaya districts; there, Isaaq traders and pastoralists have established a greater presence”.

Removing sourced content on wikipedia is a violation. Hawkers994 (talk) 10:27, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Could you provide the direct link in the text. Thank you

MustafaO (talk) 10:30, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Already mentioned on article. Hawkers994 (talk) 10:33, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, I do want to point your attention to two main things. The source doesn't state that they inhabit the territory but that: "Isaaq traders and pastoralists have established a greater presence in recent years". I wonder how that source can be used to evidence a demographic community? That is clear from the section of the source you provided. Somali clans have always had access to grazing and have traded outside of their respectivebl traditional territories. Therefore it is clearly a need for WP:STICKTOSOURCE.

Also, during the 2002 local elections and 2004 Presidential elections, the Ceel Sheekh area was part of the Lughaya district and subsequent deals were made where certain areas in the disputed villages along the border regions between Awdal and Sahil and Maroodi Jeeh would be closed off for elections and their regions would be decided at a later date. The source is referring to the same incident. You can read that here: [[]].

Do you have any other source that categorically states that they inhabit that particular area because this source is clearly WP:OR.

We could get a third opinion aswell who could examine the source and the content.

Also the same source you provided here speaks on Gadabuursi demographics in the Gabiley district, but you reversed quite a few edits on that page whenever that was mentioned. See for example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1159661086. Surely you believe that this source can then be used to reflect that in Gabiley? Any issues surrounding that?

MustafaO (talk) 12:51, 31 October 2023 (UTC) MustafaO (talk) 12:51, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Source Book aswell as the Author Roland Marchal are used many times even within the Awdal page itself presumably by yourself and other editors, so unless you’re saying majority of info in Awdal page should be deleted, unlinked and unsourced then why is it used.? Info on source is clear mentioning presence in inhibitions Hawkers994 (talk) 13:20, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

The difference is that the source mentions very clearly that the Gadabuursi is the absolite dominant demographic and it is not the only source that is used, it is used along with a number of other citations. There are multiple sources that mention the same thing.

I noticed you edited the Awdal page when there is no concensus which is why I reversed the edit. The reason why I havent edited this page is because we have not reached concensus and the content you used is WP:OR.

MustafaO (talk) 13:40, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Dominant or not presence is presence you do not have the author to pick and choose who is present in the region, as source clearly states they have established greater presence Hawkers994 (talk) 13:43, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

The source doesn't state demographics. I dont think you understand. He states that it is an area of interest forntrade and grazing. That is NOT a settled demographic. You are using the source and doig original research.

MustafaO (talk) 13:46, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Source states exactly as it says that their is a large presence regardless of who is dominant in the region, you cannot simply ignore sources content Hawkers994 (talk) 13:50, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

The section you are using states the Isaaq traders and pastoralists have established a greater presence in recent years for trade and grazing. That's not the same as being inhabitants.

MustafaO (talk) 14:01, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

The section mentions exactly that there is a large presence and that even conflicts of land have taken place Hawkers994 (talk) 14:08, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Your reading of the source is incorrect. We're not going anywhere. At this point it's better to either go back to how it was before or get a 3rd opinion. Edit wars are not allowed whilst concensus is being built. Keep the edit here and reverse your edits on Awdal as clearly we are not going anywhere. If you want a 3rd opinion. Then that is fine.

MustafaO (talk) 14:11, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

You have already been banned from Wikipedia multiple times for violatings and i have already warned you removing sourced content is a violation, but yoy already know this. Hawkers994 (talk) 14:13, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Im not going to respond to any defamations. I am clearly saying that you should refrain until a concensus has been reached. Your source and the way you are using it is WP:OR. You are editing the page before a concensus has been reached which is edit warring.

If you wish, we could scrap it and go back or we could call for arbitration.

MustafaO (talk) 14:22, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles require sources, denying sources to your liking will not work when it’s clearly stated on the article the subject matter Hawkers994 (talk) 14:24, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia also states clearly that sources that do not reflect the content is WP:OR. The content you wrote does not reflect what is in the source.

MustafaO (talk) 14:27, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

It clearly states what my first reply to this discussion shows. Hawkers994 (talk) 14:29, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

You stop editing Awdal and lets close this discussion completely. Otherwise let us raise for arbitration. No point in edit warring when there is no concensus. We clearly have different views regarding what the source states. Why not wait until a concensus is established first? I'm willing to close the discussion entirely.

MustafaO (talk) 14:33, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

You are deleting sourced content and violating wikipedia rules. You cannot delete content thats not to your liking l. Stop editing Awdal page Hawkers994 (talk) 14:48, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

References

Isaaq isn’t just the 2 brothers it was 6 also the older one was AFGAAB MUSE

Please update your writing if you don’t know will please ask the older generation thanks 👍🏼 Abdirahen Mohammed (talk) 17:16, 16 September 2024 (UTC)