Talk:Open-source license

Untitled

While software in the public domain may conform with the principles put forth by the open source community (assuming the source is available), this article aims to deal with licenses considered to be open source (and specifically with those approved by the Open Source Intitiative). Since public domain software is under no license, I removed it from the list. -- Stephen Gilbert

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No. Open source licenses do not have to be approved by the OSI to be open source or legitimate. There were many open-source licenses before the OSI, and many in use now that are not OSI approved. Please don't conflate the two. The article is correct in its statement that the OSI-approved licenses are just one subset of those available. CC0, for example, qualifies as open source and is GPL-compatible, but does not have official OSI-approval (as of right now. Not sure if approval has been sought.) --1typesetter 08:26, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Public domain software is explicitly approved as "open source" by the OSI, and it is listed along with other licenses in their own literature, so I've put it back. --LDC

They seem to be awfully quite about PD software over at OSI. I was halfway through a response saying how I couldn't find any references to PD software on their webpage, when I came across the change history of the Open Source Definition: 1.2 – added public-domain to clause 10., and 1.4 – Now explicit about source code requirement for PD software. It isn't, however, listed on their "approved licenses" page, which threw me off. And so, your revision stands. I'll just add that the source code must be available. -- Stephen Gilbert

I think we should create a seperate page for the list because in my point of view, it seems that the list is the biggest part of the article and it seems that attention has been made to that and not the rest of the article, i suggest it becomes a list --Saint-Paddy 22:48, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Various incorrect assertions

The article currently states "Some open source licenses only permit modification of the source code for personal use or only permit non-commercial redistribution." This is not true: no open source license has such restrictions (if it does, it's not open source). Also, it is not true that "most" free software licenses require sharing of source code (only a few of them do). In fact, the set of free software licenses is almost exactly the same as the set of open source licenses; there was one edge case once, in a rarely-used license if I remember correctly, where it could maybe be said to be one but not the other. In normal practice, though, any license that is a free software license is also an open source license, and vice versa. No citations are given for the aforementioned and other incorrect assertions in the article; the external references do not support them. IMHO it just needs a complete rewrite. I'm sorry I don't have time to do it, but I wanted to at least drop a note here that this article needs work. --Karl Fogel 20:01, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Comparison Link broken

When I tried the link to the comparison of open source licenses, it did not work. May be a transient error, but if it persists an alternate link should be found, or it should be removed --12.28.106.123 13:58, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Solaris and open source

I've removed two references to Solaris, one because it was obsolete and the other because it wasn't clear why it was there at all.

The first was under "Non-OSI source licenses". Sun briefly had a non-OSI release of some Solaris 8 source but that's long gone. The Solaris end-user license does not confer access to source.

The second was

Some software licenses define an open standard basis and may or may not be similar to open source, like some versions of Solaris and PGP.

If this means "source code has been released that itself defines an open standard" that doesn't fit Solaris, since Solaris is based on open standards, not the other way around. Using it as an example here also opens a can of worms as to whether Solaris itself is open source, or just shares a code base with the open-source OpenSolaris project; I don't think it's worth taking this article down that path when better examples must be available. So, I changed the line to only refer to PGP. --NapoliRoma 00:41, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Merge into comparison of free software licences?

I just found an article which contains the content of list of FSF approved software licences and this article, and the data is even formatted nicely. Seems like a good idea to merge these two articles into comparison of free software licences. Yes, no? --Gronky 12:42, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes Adleecya Graham (talk) 05:58, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Creative Commons, etc?

I often wonder, and I guess many other do to, why the creative commons licenses aren't open source. I recognise that this is a page about OSI stuff, but it would be useful to have a section detailing why other major free licenses aren't approved by OSI, especially creative commons licenses. --210.14.103.34 (talk) 11:39, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know why there hasn't been an OSI approval - maybe it has simply never been suggested , but some CC licenses are indeed open source - fsf thinks so; for instance - http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#GPLCompatibleLicenses - lists CC-BY and CC-BY-SA as free. Their definition of free is virtually identical to OSI criteria, so I doubt OSI would have a differing conclusion Aryah (talk) 01:30, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

The CC didn't want to compete with the OSI and so they discouraged the use of CC licenses for source code. With the recent advent of CC0 for source code that has perhaps begun to change. --1typesetter 08:26, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Flaw in Export Regulations Clauses

As far as I know, no much-used OS License, and only one or two OS derived licenses for government agencies or corporations, takes explicit and easily understood notice of the following situation: a U.S. based software originator transfers OS material, under an OS License, to a party in a 2nd country (neither the U.S. nor a U.S. Export Regulations proscribed country.) This 2nd party then transfers the same or modified material, still under the OS License of origin, to a 3rd party who is a resident or a citizen. The 2nd party is not constrained by U.S. Export Regulations.

A few of the much-used OS Licenses implicitly forbid this 2nd->3rd party transfer, but the language is so indirect that most 2nd parties would either miss it completely or fail to understand it.

Why would anyone care? Perhaps because the 1st party would have violated U.S. Export regulations. But to my mind more importantly: because in order to grow the OS movement and expand its scope in a productive way, some developers and OS community folks would like to engage government and corporate entities in the OS movement. These entities are not likely to come in unless they can fully satisfy U.S. Export Regulations, both because they provide static targets for litigation under those regulations, and because they are likely to believe that their own clientele and potential development contributors may wish to have, at one and the same time, the greatest freedom in their contributions, and a clear commitment that their contributions will not violate the intentions of the regulations.

For those that do care, I would appreciate any comments, or suggestions as to the minimal but easily understandable additions or edits to existing OS Licenses that would clear the flaw. Schwenn (talk) 16:34, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Article talk pages aren't intended for use in discussing the subject matter in itself. However, in this case I think you're mistaken. The issue is explicitly addressed by the GPL, which says that any distribution restrictions over and above those in the GPL mean a revocation of the right to use or distribute the code at all. This is why until recently any cryptographic code in free software was developed and held outwith the US. If you have further questions on this issue I'd advise you to seek expert advice. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 17:23, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Categories

I resynced the categories with the OSI (http://www.opensource.org/licenses/category). It is important to remember that we must follow their lead on the categories (if we are to categorize at all). Anything else would be original research. Superm401 - Talk 05:07, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

libpng license

The current status of the libpng license - referred to on the page as the "libpng/zlib license" is unclear because of the addition of the UCITA clause to the license around 2000. I suggest a new category is required - "modified versions of OSI approved licenses", or something like that.

Jbowler (talk) 16:25, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 16:19, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

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Open source license → Open-source license — like Open-source software — Neustradamus (✉) 19:31, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

• Support. Unless it's a trade name (in which case the "s" in "source" should be capitalised), the normal English grammar rules should apply. Wikipedia is not required to use bad grammar unless it is specifically intended. That doesn't appear to be the case here. — AjaxSmack 05:09, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Add'l info: WP:HYPHEN notes that hyphens are used "to link related terms in compound adjectives and adverbs." This is standard English usage on both sides of the pond (e.g., see Betty Schrampfer Azar. Understanding and Using English Grammar. 2nd ed. p. 203.) The Open Source Initiative organization follows this usage when the term is used as an adjective as it is used in the titles here ("...all other programs distributed on the same medium must be open-source software.", "Therefore we forbid any open-source license from locking...") — AjaxSmack 17:41, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

biased

I do not understand how to find and us those bracket boxes. Someone please add a bias bracket box. This article is flat out wrong it is so biased. Open source does not automatically mean free. Companies can and do release source code while still charging for licensing and releasing the software under proprietary licenses. Open source is opening up the code to customers and the public. Free licensing is allowing end users to modify and distribute the program. One does not automatically equal the other. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.247.234.225 (talk) 22:24, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Can you provide the references for the use of the term 'open source' that follow your definition? Because this isn't how the terminology evolved (or how I've ever seen it used). See History of open source . Sources there name the exact participants , date and motivation of the exact session where the term was created (open sourcing of Netscape - now Firefox etc) and it was precisely a conscious rebranding of free software. I will remove your NPOV template - but if you still feel its biased after reading about the term, please reinsert it. Aryah (talk) 00:05, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

But speaking of bias is it fair to say that identifying free and open source licences as the same is just a common misconception and a confusion propagated by free software advocates? the article itself notes the 'significant overlap' of the two categories, and the overlap is frankly more than significant, the lists differ in only a few cases, and the definitions of the two organizations don't differ in criteria for approval? Won't edit this just yet, but I might try softening the rethoric of that paragraph unless there are objections. Aryah (talk) 18:14, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

This doesn't really add on to the previous discussion but I find that the way the article currently reads seems biased, primarily the "benefits of open-source" section. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for open-source software, but the way that section is written makes it feel really pro-open-source, without writing the disadvantages. I'm thinking either adding a "disadvantages" section (which would be hard for me personally because I can't think of any) or just removing the benefit section entirely. It could just be me though so I dunno. eva2pare^[talk] 19:33, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Wait, why in the world was this section changed? The unsigned IP above is clearly wrong, based on the history discussed by Aryah above. Daniel J. Hakimi (talk) 19:45, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

distinguish tag

I am unsure if the distinguish tag should be included as it implies a strong distinction which is not supported by the article. The few sites addressing the difference between free software and open source tend to only claim a very minor difference in approved licenses. This makes me wonder if the tag doesn't do us a disservice by strongly proclaiming in the top that the two types are not to be confused with!. I am personally going to sleep on it for a bit before doing any change to it. Belorn (talk) 08:30, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Decided against having the distinguish tag, given how WP:distinguish describes how the tag should be used. The relation between Open source licenses and Free software licenses should instead be mentioned in the lead. Belorn (talk) 17:56, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Intro is misleading

I think the opening paragraph should make it clear that open source licenses are commonly found on works which are not open source. At this point, you can find Apache 2.0 and BSD licenses in the legal notices of hundreds of millions of products that run proprietary software. Sure there might be some version or part of the software that was at one time open source, but, for the most part, but it doesn't mean the version the user has on that device is open source.

Maybe we could say something along these lines:

An open source license is a statement or document provided by the copyright holder of work that grants recipients of the work permission to copy, modify, and redistribute the work. the term "open source license" is itself, misleading, as it is common to find open source licenses attached to proprietary (non open source) works. Most open source licenses specify some conditions along with the permissions they grant to users. The most common condition found in open source licenses is the requirement to preserve certain legal notices, such as copyright statements and a copy of the license itself. Some open source licenses also have conditions placed on distribution of the work that require you to make available to recipients of the work a copy of the human readable source code. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joshuagay (talk • contribs) 20:13, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Improved open source disambiguation (that may become a broad concept article)

"Open source" (without dash, with dash, and disambiguation) are now redirected to the improved Open source disambiguation which may become a WP:broad concept article to reduce the extreme number of disambiguation-link alarms. Please read more on the latest developments on Talk:Open source and feel free to improve Open source. ~ JasonCarswell (talk) 17:06, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Some Proposed Changes

Hello, I am employed by Boston University's Fineman & Pappas Law Libraries. After reviewing this Wikipedia page, I believe that information from one of our faculty's scholarship might provide a valuable addition to this page. I would appreciate it if this requested edit could be reviewed.

Add the following lines (in bold) to second paragraph: However, open-source licenses may have some restrictions, particularly regarding the expression of respect to the origin of software, such as a requirement to preserve the name of the authors and a copyright statement within the code, or a requirement to redistribute the licensed software only under the same license (as in a copyleft license). There has previously been debates about whether open source licenses, which permit copyholders to use, transfer, and modify software, have adequate consideration, should be viewed by the courts as legally enforceable contracts. While some academics have argued that open source licenses are not contracts because there is no consideration, others have argued that the significant societal value provided by the role that open source licenses play in promoting software development and improvement by facilitating access to source code offers adequate consideration.

Cf2022 (talk) 04:30, 5 April 2021 (UTC)Cf2022

References

Examples?

The article should contain at least a brief mention of the most prominent/common examples, MIT, GNU, etc., similar to what is at Free software license#Comparison. Caleb Stanford (talk) 22:10, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Open-source license/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sohom Datta (talk · contribs) 13:18, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Taking this on, it might take me a while since I will be travelin over this week. Sohom (talk) 13:18, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, and safe travels, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 21:26, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

• Stallman witnessed fragmentation that he attributed to proprietary software, and founded the free software movement. This sentence is phrased weirdly, it might be best to break up and put some distance between these two actions. (ie. stallman witnessed xyz, and did abc, which resulted in cde. As a result of this, he is considered one of the earliest founders of the free software movement.)
  • Done, rephrased, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 23:57, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
• He contrasted the proprietary model where small pools of secretive workers would carry out this work with the development of Linux where the pool of testers included potentially the entire world. I'm not so sure about this, does he specifically mention the proprietary model ? My understanding is that he is comparing and contrasting two models of open-source development and not proprietary and open-source development.
  • Raymond discusses that also. Here is a quote from that chapter: "The developer who uses only his or her own brain in a closed project is going to fall behind the developer who knows how to create an open, evolutionary context in which feedback exploring the design space, code contributions, bug-spotting, and other improvements come from from hundreds (perhaps thousands) of people. But the traditional Unix world was prevented from pushing this approach to the ultimate by several factors. One was the legal contraints of various licenses, trade secrets, and commercial interests." Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk)
    • While I do agree with what your saying here, I'd like a third-party citation that mentions this, instead of us interpreting the author's words here. Sohom (talk) 01:03, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
      • Done, added a citation to Brock (2022): "The seminal The Cathedral and The Bazaar, Eric Raymond’s book on Open Source, emphasised the advantages of distributed, collaborative development compared to the controlled and closed development practices of proprietary software vendors as one of the first texts on Open Source." Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 02:17, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
• The OSI succeeded in bringing open-source development to corporate developers including Sun Microsystems, IBM, Netscape, Mozilla, Apache, Apple Inc., Microsoft, and Nokia. WP:SEAOFBLUE. You will probably need to qualify why you mention each of these companies.
  • Done. I had linked organizations that created open-source licenses. To reduce the "sea of blue", I've cut the links down to only organizations that have created licenses widely in use in current FOSS projects, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 23:57, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
• For example, this is why IBM is a trademark for International Business Machines, which supplies mainframe computing solutions, and the International Brotherhood of Magicians which supplies guidance on stage magic. This particular sentence reads a bit textbookish/instructive, maybe it needs to be rephrased ?
  • Done, I've clipped it out rather than rephrase. In retrospect, I was using it as a kind of "instructive" example, which it would still be if rephrased, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 23:57, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
  • Sohom_Datta, are you still reviewing this nomination? No rush, if you are still traveling, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 21:44, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

    I am, will get back to it this week. I'm done traveling for now :) Sohom (talk) 05:35, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Next batch:

• Thus, open-source patent grants can offer permission only from covered patents. Introduce what "open-source patent grants" are before this line.
  • Done. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 04:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
• Trademarks on FOSS function the same as any trademark. as any other trademark?
  • Done. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 04:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
• the Berkeley Software Distribution (BSD) license to permit free usage with no obligations placed on users. This line is confusing. I don't think the cost of the software is codified in the license, also I would assume the license applies to redistributors and not users of the system.
  • Done. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 04:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
• "Berkeley Software Distribution" should link to the license (in that context) and not the discontinued software ? Maybe we need some text to clarify that BSD's name comes from the namesake software.
  • Done, I've revised this paragraph to try and make it more clear. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 04:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
• One of the strengths of open-source development is the complex process where developers can build Does the source mention "complex" ?
  • In a way, but I've changed it to "continual" to be more specific. Rosen (2005, p. 88) says, "The ever lengthening chain of title is reflective of the robust creative energies of community development. A major open source software program may have a long chain of title by the time it arrives on your computer.". Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 04:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
• ommon to specify if software uses a 2-clause if the software?
  • Done. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 04:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
• the source code be made available under a copyleft license. Under a similar license?
  • Done. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 04:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
• The GPL, LGPL, AGPL, MPL, EPL, and Apache License have all been revised to enhance compatibility. This a bit of a alphabet soup, it might be usefull to just say "Multiple license like XYZ and YZX have been revised"
  • Done. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 04:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
• Continuing from the previous point, can we have a example of such a revision?
  • Done. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 04:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
• Jumping a bit forward, I'm not really a fan of the comparison section, it should probably split into it's own seperate list article.
  • @Sohom Datta: Reliable sources give significant attention to public domain software and where the boundaries are between public domain software and in what situations could you call or not call it open-source, and whether public-domain-equivalent licenses are FOSS licenses. I've merged that section up one level as "Public domain software". I've clipped out the "Freeware" section but may use some of the sources for drafting a criticism/limitations section. I've clipped out almost all of the "Free software" section and placed a much more condensed version alongside the discusison of free software. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 04:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
• I see nothing addressing/covering the modern criticism of open-source licenses, especially in the context of multiple companies moving to closed source licenses over disagreements due to cloud hosting providers. Maybe, that is something that could be included ?
  • That's a good catch and will improve NPOV. I'm going to take a coupe days to make notes and draft a section. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 04:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Okay, I've added this in as "Limitations" to best reflect the sources. If "Criticism" is preferred to offer a similar heading to other articles, I'm fine with that as well. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 06:28, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
• These outline how to come back into compliance from a violation. Does "these" refer to the German process or the cease and desist letter ?
  • Done. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 04:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
• Under the bare license interpretation, advocated by the FSF, a case is brought to court by the copyright holder as copyright infringement. Explain what a bare license is.
  • Done. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 06:28, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
• nit, in File:Open-source-license-chart.svg the <1% should be at the end of the piechart.
  • Done, I'll likely go back and tweak the colors but <1% is now at the final position clockwise. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 04:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

@Rjjiii, extremely sorry for the delay, I have finished doing a first read of the article and have listed the issues I found in the first pass. I still need to spotcheck the references, but I'll do that once the current changes are made. I'll be generally available this week, so feel free to ping me when you finish. Sohom (talk) 04:25, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

You're good. I think that GA reviews and peer reviews are really good for Wikipedia and also recognize that they can take some time and effort to get right. I've ticked off the simple to resolve issues first. I'll ping you after I draft some content "addressing/covering the modern criticism". That was a good catch and will results in better NPOV. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 04:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

@Sohom Datta: There is now a criticism section addressing issues with cloud computing and trademark law, and I think I've responded to all the points above. When checking the sources, let me know if you need any assistance accessing any of them or quoted passages. Also, I'm realizing while editing that I've cited some passages to chapters. I think this meets WP:V, but if it's a pain to verify, you can ping me to narrow them down to specific pages, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 06:28, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

@Sohom Datta: ? Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 04:05, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

I'll get to this tmrw, this fell of my radar, sorry for the really long wait. Sohom (talk) 14:50, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Did a dozen spotchecks most seem fine, two points,

• Why is a youtube video considered RS ? (Is Heather Meeker a subject matter expert?)
• The text 76 b is supporting does not appear to be in the citation.

Otherwise everything looks good. Sohom (talk) 00:42, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

@Rjjiii ping Sohom (talk) 00:43, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

No worries about the wait; things take the time they take.

• I've made the text cited at 76b more spare to remove any potential inference that I'm making regarding this paragraph from the end of Ballhausen 2022, § 5.4: Where the copyright owner’s key focus is on ensuring that an organisation complies with Open Source licence terms, such preliminary proceedings are an effective tool. However, where proceedings are used to obtain as much money as possible out of a court settlement or declaration to cease and desist as possible, thus allowing the copyright owner to trigger penalty payments at will, there is a high risk that the enforcement may become formalistic and that a copyright owner may suggest very detailed licence interpretation, which may both be impractical and harmful for the Open Source community at large. To safeguard against this, the Software Freedom Conservancy,15 the FSF,16 and the Netfilter project,17 organisations which hold code on behalf of developers, whose work is detailed further in Chapter 18, and whose code is often the subject of enforcement actions relating to Open Source, defined principles of community- oriented General Public License (GPL) enforcement, aiming to ensure that any enforcement action taking by individual Open Source copyright owners is consistent in ensuring compliance and that it is not centred on generating payments.
• Heather Meeker is an IP lawyer and subject matter expert in open-source legal matters.[1][2] She's had books on open-source licensing published by the American Bar Association and Wiley.[3][4] I chose the YouTube video over one of her books for broader availability.

Many thanks, Sohom_Datta, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 03:24, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

LGTM :) Sohom (talk) 05:15, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Feedback from New Page Review process

I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: Please remember to tag redirects that you create per WP:REDCAT.

voorts (talk/contributions) 01:58, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Subtle pro-open source bias

"This offers protection against proprietary software consuming code without giving back." and more in the "Limitations" section. The entire point of free software is that it's reusable, and as the text admits, proprietary uses are often following the licensing terms. It would be more in keeping with NPOV to state that open-source licensed software is often reused in proprietary projects, that this has benefits for the proprietary side, and is criticized and seen as unfair by some open-source contributors. Indeed the "Limitations" section could be split into, say "Use in proprietary software" and the content about trademarks possibly moved up in the article where trademarks were introduced. (t · c) buidhe 04:03, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Another issue: copyleft licenses like the GPL also disclaim liability. (t · c) buidhe 01:31, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback; I'll get out sources and address more of this later in the week, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 04:17, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

It's revised now. Thanks again, Buidhe. Also, have you seen free license and free software license? "Free license" should probably redirect to "free software license", but I'm not sure what the scope of that article should be as it almost entirely overlaps this one. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 19:00, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree that the free software and open source license articles should be merged because practically all free software licenses are also open source and vice versa. I think free license /open license includes non-software licenses, such as Creative Commons or open data licenses. (t · c) buidhe 20:25, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Free software license in lead

@Nickelpro:, you removed this setence from the lead, "While the goals behind the terms are different, open-source licenses and free software licenses describe the same thing."[5] This reflects reliable sources even if it may sound confusing. The book-length sources cited in the article like St. Laurent (2004) use the terms to mean the same thing consistently. In addition to the already cited sources, check out these that specifically address definitions:

• "Essentially, their concept of open source licensing is the same, but their motivations for open source licensing differ."[6]
• "Both communities consider more or less the same licenses as free respectively open. A license accepted as a free software license does most probably also qualify as an open source license and vice versa (FSF 2006g). Therefore, the lists of free software licenses and open source licenses are almost identical."[7]
• "Three definitions: One of the consequences of the division between the free and open source communities is that two organizations exist to approve such things as licenses: The Open Source Initiative (OSI), and the FSF. If you read the OSI’s Open Source Definition and the FSF’s Free Software Definition, you’ll find that they are simply rewordings of the same ideas. Look at the list of licenses approved by both organizations, and you will find that the major licenses are also identical. Where they are not, the main reason is usually that the writer of the license has not yet submitted it to one authority for approval."[8]
• "What are synonyms for open source software?: “Open source software” is also called “Free software”, “libre software”, “Free/open source software (FOSS or F/OSS)”, and “Free/Libre/Open Source Software (FLOSS)”. The term “Free software” predates the term “open source software”, but the term “Free software” has sometimes been misinterpreted as meaning “no cost”, which is not the intended meaning in this context. (“Free” in “Free software” refers to freedom, not price.) The term “open source software” is sometimes hyphenated as “open-source software”."[9]
• "Synonyms: "free software license", "FSF-approved", "open source license", and "OSI-approved": The terms "free software license" and "open source license" are essentially synonymous, and I treat them so throughout this book. Technically, the former term refers to licenses confirmed by the Free Software Foundation as meeting the "four freedoms" of the Free Software Definition (FSD, see https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html), while the latter term refers to licenses approved by the Open Source Initiative as meeting the Open Source Definition (OSD, see https://opensource.org/osd). However, if you read the FSD and the OSD, it becomes obvious that the two definitions delineate the same freedoms — which is not surprising, given the historical background explained in the section called “"Free" Versus "Open Source"”. The inevitable, and in some sense deliberate, result is that the two organizations have approved the same set of licenses."[10]

Feel free to suggest wording for the lead that better summarizes this point, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 05:38, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

The sources do not support that at all, they speak to this fact directly. The colloquially represent a very similar sets, but strictly not identical sets of licences.

"Technically, the former term refers to licenses confirmed by the Free Software Foundation as meeting the "four freedoms" of the Free Software Definition (FSD, see https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html), while the latter term refers to licenses approved by the Open Source Initiative as meeting the Open Source Definition (OSD, see https://opensource.org/osd)."

Not every license approved by the OSI is approved by the FSF and vice-versa. I don't really give a hoot what language is used here, but saying bluntly they're "the same thing" is wrong. Nickelpro (talk) 13:02, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

@Nickelpro: Regarding this edit,[11] Datamation is not a blog. The added source is odd. It's from a 2005 symposium. There is broken english and apparent confusion in the abstract, "Licenses of open source software (OSS) are quiet various but can be categorised into three. That is GPL (GNU general Public License) like, LGPL (GNU Lesser general Public License) like, or MPL (Mozilla Public License) like. [...]" It also doesn't contradict the removed source, as it still talks about the certification process and not two different categories, "There are many open source software in our society. OSI certificate some of them as open source license while FSF certificate some of them as free software or GPL compatible Licenses." The edit places undue weight on minor differences between the FSF and OSI (WP:UNDUE). For example, "many licenses" could be confusing for someone with little background on the subject. All major FOSS licenses have been approved by both groups (GPL, LGPL, MIT, BSD, Apache, etc.). Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 22:32, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

What does it matter if all "major" licences have been approved by both groups? What matters is there exists a distinction, and both first party and academic sources support this distinction. There's nothing WP:UNDUE about facts, and WP:UNDUE doesn't support stating false claims. I dislike the "let's just bring a bunch of sources to bear on obvious facts" style of talk-page debate, but here we go:

• Perry, Mark; Margoni, Thomas (2010). "FLOSS for the Canadian Public Sector: open democracy". 2010 Fourth International Conference on Digital Society. pp. 294–200. doi:10.1109/ICDS.2010.52.
  • So what is FLOSS? Two main concepts of the nomenclature should be separated: Free/Libre and Open. There has been vexatious dispute between these two ideologies
  • Despite advocates’ different points of view towards one or the other position, and the different weight that each position gives to ethical and business concerns, the difference lies more in a philosophical level of abstraction than in a substantial one. This does not mean that there are no practical differences between these two definitions: the Open Source definition is some how broader than the Free Software one.
  • The Open Source Initiative (OSI) reports 55 OSI approved licences. The Free Software Foundation (FSF) reports 43 Free Software approved licences compatible with the GPL and 39 licences that are deemed Free Software but not GPL compatible
• Bahn, David; Dressel, Dan (2006). "Liability and Control Risks with Open Source Software". 2006 International Conference on Information Technology: Research and Education. pp. 242–245. doi:10.1109/ITRE.2006.381573.
  • The key difference between the meaning of "free" and "open source" in the open source community is the type of license used for the software.
  • By contrast, the Open Source Initiative's advocacy of OSS not only approves the GPL and GPL compatible licenses but also endorses several other "open source" licenses that are not approved by the Free Software Foundation.
• Salter, Anastasia; Murray, John (2014). "Free and Open?". Flash: Building the Interactive Web. MIT Press. p. 113. ISBN 9780262325776.
  • In the definition set forth by the Free Software Foundation, these include “the freedom to run, copy, distribute, study, change and improve the software” (Free Software Foundation 2013). The Open Source Initiative (OSI) provides a broader set of licenses and differing guidelines on what software conforms to its definition.

Sources that wrangle in any detail with the two definitions say there exist practical distinctions and that the OSI licenses represent a super-set of the FSF licenses. The phrase they are "the same" is wrong. It's your Good article, and I'm not attached to any particular phrasing or source, but that line doesn't belong anywhere in the article (which is why I originally just blanked it instead of rephrasing).

If the difference is truly so superficial, then this should be a merge discussion for this article and free software licence.

Nickelpro (talk) 00:44, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

"What matters is there exists a distinction" to whom? Reliable sources largely treat them as synonyms. "There's nothing WP:UNDUE about facts" yes, it would be possible to write factual and verifiable material this is still undue as described by Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Bahn and Dressel (2006) give the BSD license as their example of something that is an open-source license but not a free software license. The modified BSD license has been approved by the FSF^[12] and the OSI.^[13] Salter (2014) and Perry (2010) are still talking about which organization has approved which license and endorse which criteria. The Free Software Foundation emphasizes a difference.[14] The OSI says "'Free software' and 'open source software' are two terms for the same thing: software released under licenses that guarantee a certain specific set of freedoms".[15] WP:RS say there are three directly related sets of criteria to define the subject. The article should summarize that for readers, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 01:59, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

"Yes, it would be possible to write factual and verifiable material this is still undue", you're correct of course, my point is simply that there factually is a difference, saying otherwise is false, and WP:UNDUE does not justify falsities, only not presenting all the minutia of the truth. It is acceptable to make no claims about the nature of the relationship between open source and free licenses because the differences are minute, but it is not acceptable to state no such differences exist.

All that said, I'm spent on this. If you're committed to the old wording have at it, I won't revert or tweak whatever you decide on.

Nickelpro (talk) 02:11, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I've posted the currently cited source to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard for outside opinions. I'll hold off on editing this article for a couple of days until that discussion is archived, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 00:55, 14 June 2024 (UTC)