Talk:Christian views on alcohol: Difference between revisions
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{{User:WildBot/m04|sect={{User:WildBot/m03|1|Christianity and alcohol#Drunkenness|discussed above|#Drunkenness}}, {{User:WildBot/m03|1|History of alcohol#Alcohol in the early modern period|Alcohol in the early modern period}}|m04}} |
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== Intro summary == |
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Hello, given the nature of alcohol and the evidence submitted of clergy urging Christians to abstain, I feel the opening summary of the page "Christian views on Alcohol" should include mention of this view happening during that time in history, given how the article currently opens in contradiction to that evidence. Without that mention, the article gives an impression that there was only one, differing view with alcohol for Christians, that abstaining generally didn't happen. The article already mentions in the early church section an example that contradicts this view from Clement of Alexandria (died c. 215) who wrote in a chapter about drinking that he admired the young and the old who "abstain wholly from drink," who adopt an austere life and "flee as far as possible from wine, shunning it as they would the danger of fire." He strongly warned youth to "flee as far as possible" from it so as not to inflame their "wild impulses." He said Christ did not teach affected by it. "...the soul itself is wisest and best when dry." |
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Was claimed to be [[Adrian of Canterbury|St Adrian]], but he's not listed [http://www.catholic.org/saints/patron.php?letter=B here]. Googling shows that an earlier Adrian may well be the correct one, so for the time being, I've unlinked this to avoid confusion. [[User:Rodhullandemu|<span style="font-family:Verdana;color:#0000FF">Rodhull</span>]][[User_talk:Rodhullandemu|<span style="font-family:Verdana;color:#FF0000">andemu</span>]] 15:52, 25 June 2009 (UTC) |
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Because of this evidence (and further evidence I've submitted that contradicts the current opening assumption of the article) I believe the opening summary (and a few small tweaks to a couple other statements in the article that reference the view held in the opening summary) should be restated to include the view presented with the evidence submitted. I also feel there should be some mention of the evidence of abstinence that happened between the period of the early church and the 19th century as there were churches during that time who professed abstaining from alcohol. I've added an example with the Brethren Church who professed a statement of abstinence after the reformation, but before the 19th century movement towards abstaining. |
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:Forgot to note it, but I fixed this. The claim was correct, but the link was pointing to the wrong person. --[[User:Flex|Fl<font color="green">e</font>x]] ([[User_talk:Flex|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Flex|contribs]]) 13:42, 10 June 2010 (UTC) |
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Thanks, |
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== POV? == |
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[[User:Statescontributor|Statescontributor]] ([[User talk:Statescontributor|talk]]) 17:07, 2 September 2019 (UTC)Statescontributor |
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[[User:Rursus]] put two POV flags on this sentence from the article: "Since nearly all Christians base their views of alcohol, in whole or in part, on their understanding of what the Bible says about it, the Bible is the single most important source on the subject, followed by [[Christian traditions|Christian tradition]]." The given reasoning was that "the Bible is the single most important source on the subject" is "Trying to sneak in a POV!!" and that tradition being the second most important source on the topic is POV because "protestants don't generally adher to a 'tradition'." |
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:While you did start a discussion on the Talk page (which is good) you seem to have disregarded the "reach consensus" part. [[User:Editor2020|Editor2020]] ([[User talk:Editor2020|talk]]) 18:32, 2 September 2019 (UTC) |
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How could this sentence be better expressed and with more neutrality? It is well qualified enough with "nearly all" and "in whole or in part". Who is being excluded? What POV is being pushed? It seems to me to fit Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican and Protestants pretty well. |
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== The difference between absentionism and prohibitionism == |
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Also, Protestants most certainly do adhere to tradition. Some fundamentalists (speciously) claim to have "no creed by Christ" (though how they think about Christ is remarkably well aligned with existing traditions), but nearly all evangelicals, for instance, explicitly adhere to some form of tradition like Nicea and Chalcedon on the Trinity. Moreover, different groups like Reformed, Methodist, Baptist, etc. have developed their own the traditions (including confessions, creeds, and catechisms) which are viewed as having subsidiary authority and are tests of orthodoxy. [[Sola scriptura]] and [[Prima scriptura]] do not mean "no tradition"; rather, they mean Scripture is the final, authoritative word. --[[User:Flex|Fl<font color="green">e</font>x]] ([[User_talk:Flex|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Flex|contribs]]) 15:42, 19 April 2010 (UTC) |
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"The prohibitionist position has experienced a general reduction of support since the days of prohibitionism as a movement, with many of its advocates becoming abstentionists instead." Ok so what precisely are the current modern definitions of these two categories? [[User:Banaticus|Banaticus]] ([[User talk:Banaticus|talk]]) 02:47, 11 November 2020 (UTC) |
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:I revised it. --[[User:Flex|Fl<font color="green">e</font>x]] ([[User_talk:Flex|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Flex|contribs]]) 14:04, 10 June 2010 (UTC) |
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== SBC == |
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The prohibitionist section at the end lists the SBC as prohibitionists. But the linked 2006 statement doesn't seem to me to be prohibitionist. It does not, for instance, say that the Bible prohibits alcohol. It only says that the Bible warns about the dangers of alcohol. Moreover, it claims empirical data, which also sounds abstentionist (though it could be a supplement to a prohibitionist position). On the other hand, it also says that alcoholic beverages shouldn't be manufactured, which sounds prohibitionist, but as a matter of logic does not have to be. Thus, one can hold that use of alcohol is imprudent in our day and age, and that for the same reason it is imprudent to manufacture or sell alcohol. [[User:Pruss|Pruss]] ([[User talk:Pruss|talk]]) 19:46, 8 May 2010 (UTC) |
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:You are right that the second reference for the SBC could be taken to be either abstentionist or prohibitionist and doesn't detail exactly what the SBC believes the biblical position is, but the first reference, which AFAICT has not been repealed or superseded, calls the use/sale of alcohol "unholy" and "folly and sin", not just imprudent or unwise. --[[User:Flex|Fl<font color="green">e</font>x]] ([[User_talk:Flex|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Flex|contribs]]) 13:40, 10 June 2010 (UTC) |
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:'''SBC vs alcohol!''' The SBC 2006 resolution is [http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/AMResSearchAction.asp?SearchBy=Subject&DisplayRows=10&frmData=alcohol&Submit=Search SBC's '''62nd resolution''' against alcohol since 1886]! [[User:Officelamp|Officelamp]] ([[User talk:Officelamp|talk]]) 04:25, 10 May 2013 (UTC) |
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== Secular temperance movement == |
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[[User:Chris Henniker]] added these sentences to the section on the temperance movement: |
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:At the same time, there were secular temperance organisations connected to the [[labour movement]]. A good example would be the [[Scottish Prohibition Party]], founded by [[Bob Stewart]], who followed the [[British Labour Party]] on all other issues. There was a [[Marxist]] offshoot called the [[Prohibition and Reform Party]], which later became part of the [[Communist Party of Great Britain]] in 1920. |
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I removed them (without much of an edit message -- sorry), not because they are false (there are no sources given here, but I don't have reason to suspect their veracity), but because they constitute a factoid of minor relevance to the topic of that section and the article as a whole. Just trying to keep it focused as a summary rather than exhaustive detail. --[[User:Flex|Fl<font color="green">e</font>x]] ([[User_talk:Flex|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Flex|contribs]]) 19:23, 12 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:I think there should be a mention of secular temperence movements, just to give the bigger picture. The temperance movement was even connected to early feminism as well, so it should be explored. [[User:Chris Henniker|Chris Henniker]] ([[User talk:Chris Henniker|talk]]) 19:28, 12 September 2012 (UTC) |
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::It's fine for them to be explored in the larger web of articles related to the temperance movement. I just don't think that they should be explored here in this article which is, per the title, concerned with Christian views and which is already quite long. (Consider: Why not also include Muslim views, Judaic views, Hindu views, etc.? These would also be beyond the stated scope.) Perhaps in [[Temperance movement]] or a new "Main article" or "See also" to a subsection thereof, e.g., [[Secular views of the temperance movement]]? --[[User:Flex|Fl<font color="green">e</font>x]] ([[User_talk:Flex|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Flex|contribs]]) 20:47, 12 September 2012 (UTC) |
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==Edits by Einie101== |
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I [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Christian_views_on_alcohol&diff=516002300&oldid=515861994 reverted some edits] by [[User:Einie101]]. Here's why. |
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* Wine vs. "fruit of the vine" was adequately explained and sourced in footnotes. No need to clutter up the main text. |
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* The additional, inspecific reference to Patton's booklet doesn't add anything. It could come back if it had a page number and/or a quote specifically related to the claim being sourced there. |
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* [[Amish]], [[Old Order Mennonites]], and [[Conservative Mennonites]] were all added to the list of abstentionists. This should be sourced from official church teachings, but watch the distinction between abstentionists and prohibitionists (the key difference being, is it a sin to drink or not, according to their official teaching?). Also, it's overkill to include three relatively small groups in the same family. One will do -- the largest or most prominent (Amish?). |
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* The medical claim was (1) unsourced as far as its factuality and (2) not relevant to an article about ''religious'' views (not medical views) of alcohol. These problems could be overcome and the sentence restored if it were sourced to a prominent abstentionist making the claim. Something like "Soandso, head of the ethics council for the [[General Conference Mennonite Church]], said his denomination does not drink alcohol because 'the body doesn't break it down the same way as sugar ... '[ref to webpage or other published work where he said this]" |
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Let me know if you have any concerns or questions about this. --[[User:Flex|Fl<font color="green">e</font>x]] ([[User_talk:Flex|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Flex|contribs]]) 18:24, 4 October 2012 (UTC) |
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Intro summary
[edit]Hello, given the nature of alcohol and the evidence submitted of clergy urging Christians to abstain, I feel the opening summary of the page "Christian views on Alcohol" should include mention of this view happening during that time in history, given how the article currently opens in contradiction to that evidence. Without that mention, the article gives an impression that there was only one, differing view with alcohol for Christians, that abstaining generally didn't happen. The article already mentions in the early church section an example that contradicts this view from Clement of Alexandria (died c. 215) who wrote in a chapter about drinking that he admired the young and the old who "abstain wholly from drink," who adopt an austere life and "flee as far as possible from wine, shunning it as they would the danger of fire." He strongly warned youth to "flee as far as possible" from it so as not to inflame their "wild impulses." He said Christ did not teach affected by it. "...the soul itself is wisest and best when dry."
Because of this evidence (and further evidence I've submitted that contradicts the current opening assumption of the article) I believe the opening summary (and a few small tweaks to a couple other statements in the article that reference the view held in the opening summary) should be restated to include the view presented with the evidence submitted. I also feel there should be some mention of the evidence of abstinence that happened between the period of the early church and the 19th century as there were churches during that time who professed abstaining from alcohol. I've added an example with the Brethren Church who professed a statement of abstinence after the reformation, but before the 19th century movement towards abstaining.
Thanks, Statescontributor (talk) 17:07, 2 September 2019 (UTC)Statescontributor
- While you did start a discussion on the Talk page (which is good) you seem to have disregarded the "reach consensus" part. Editor2020 (talk) 18:32, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
The difference between absentionism and prohibitionism
[edit]"The prohibitionist position has experienced a general reduction of support since the days of prohibitionism as a movement, with many of its advocates becoming abstentionists instead." Ok so what precisely are the current modern definitions of these two categories? Banaticus (talk) 02:47, 11 November 2020 (UTC)