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Cristoforo Colombo

Why does this article only mention his name name in English? 124.170.102.102 (talk) 09:50, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed I've added a note next to his English name with his name in other relevant languages. Thanks for pointing this out. Carlstak (talk) 14:04, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The papal interregnum

Pope Innocent VIII's article says:

The inscription below his tomb in Saint Peter's states: "Nel tempo del suo Pontificato, la gloria della scoperta di un nuovo mondo" (transl. "During his Pontificate, the glory of the discovery of a new world."). Writer Ruggero Marino, in his book Cristoforo Colombo e il Papa tradito (transl. Christopher Columbus and the betrayed Pope) argues that since Innocent died shortly before the departure of Christopher Columbus on his presumedly first voyage over the Atlantic, this suggests that Columbus actually traveled before the known date and re-discovered the Americas for the Europeans before the supposed date of 12 October 1492.

Innocent died on 25 July 1492. Columbus left for the New World on 3 August. The new pope Alexander VI was elected on 11 August. Is there anything in the literature about the significance of the date Columbus chose to leave, and the fact that is was in the midst of an interregnum? And could that be connected to the para I quoted above? I'd never heard any suggestion that his 1492 voyage to the New World was not in fact his first. What's on the record about Innocent VIII's involvement with Columbus? He's considered one of the weakest popes of the 15th century, and one modern-day critic calls him a "belligerent nonentity". But is there more to his story than meets the eye? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 12:34, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ruggero Marino's article says he is "a journalist, writer and poet" not a historian. There is absolutely no support in scholarly literature for his "argument" about Columbus having a voyage before 1492. The 1492 voyage was very well-documented for that time and it clearly was the first. Nor is their any known connection between Columbus and Pope Innocent VIII.

In all likelihood, the inscription was made at a later date and someone confused the timeline. Either way, this theory clearly falls under the domain of pseudohistory and shouldn't be mentioned here. Jack234567 (talk) 14:56, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the quick response. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 09:58, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Claim that Columbus severed hands for failing to pay tribute is NOT supported by historical record

This allegation against Columbus is not supported by the historical record. It was first stated by Hans Koning, a source with questionable authority and motive, in 1976. It appears nowhere prior to that. It was popularized by Howard Zinn's People's History of the United States which borrowed heavily from Koning's book. But the primary source record does NOT state what the punishment for failing to pay the tribute was. Therefore, this CANNOT be stated as fact.

For an extensive analysis of this claim, I explain it here, with a comprehensive look at what the historical record says on the matter: https://historyinfocus.net/2024/09/27/columbus-and-the-myth-of-severed-hands/ 2601:18C:8202:5A40:DA:C230:8704:888B (talk) 09:34, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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-== Could we please refrain ==
+== Cristoforo Colombo ==
+Why does this article only mention his name name in English? [[Special:Contributions/124.170.102.102|124.170.102.102]] ([[User talk:124.170.102.102|talk]]) 09:50, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
-From using the Map''(or maps)'' theory. Yes, Columbus most likely observed other maps while in Europe, but stating it in this article is absurd. This will just lead to debates that Columbus discovered the new world by theft. --[[User:68.209.227.3|68.209.227.3]] 04:12, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
+:{{fixed}} I've added a note next to his English name with his name in other relevant languages. Thanks for pointing this out. [[User:Carlstak|Carlstak]] ([[User talk:Carlstak|talk]]) 14:04, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
+==The papal interregnum==
-== Navigation plans ==
+[[Pope Innocent VIII]]'s article says:
+* The inscription below his tomb in Saint Peter's states: "Nel tempo del suo Pontificato, la gloria della scoperta di un nuovo mondo" (transl. "During his Pontificate, the glory of the discovery of a new world."). Writer Ruggero Marino, in his book Cristoforo Colombo e il Papa tradito (transl. Christopher Columbus and the betrayed Pope) argues that since Innocent died shortly before the departure of Christopher Columbus on his presumedly first voyage over the Atlantic, this suggests that Columbus actually traveled before the known date and re-discovered the Americas for the Europeans before the supposed date of 12 October 1492.
+Innocent died on 25 July 1492. Columbus left for the New World on 3 August. The new pope Alexander VI was elected on 11 August. Is there anything in the literature about the significance of the date Columbus chose to leave, and the fact that is was in the midst of an interregnum? And could that be connected to the para I quoted above? I'd never heard any suggestion that his 1492 voyage to the New World was not in fact his first. What's on the record about Innocent VIII's involvement with Columbus? He's considered one of the weakest popes of the 15th century, and one modern-day critic calls him a "belligerent nonentity". But is there more to his story than meets the eye? -- [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family: Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-size:85%; font-family: Verdana;"><sup>[pleasantries]</sup></span>]] 12:34, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
-It seems worth mentioning here that America already had been described in the [[Vinland#The_Extension_of_Vinland|litterature]] for three centuries. [[User:St.Trond|St.Trond]] ([[User talk:St.Trond|talk]]) 07:40, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
+:[[Ruggero Marino]]'s article says he is "a journalist, writer and poet" not a historian. There is absolutely no support in scholarly literature for his "argument" about Columbus having a voyage before 1492. The 1492 voyage was very well-documented for that time and it clearly was the first. Nor is their any known connection between Columbus and Pope Innocent VIII.
-== Illogical interpretation ==
+:In all likelihood, the inscription was made at a later date and someone confused the timeline. Either way, this theory clearly falls under the domain of pseudohistory and shouldn't be mentioned here. [[User:Jack234567|Jack234567]] ([[User talk:Jack234567|talk]]) 14:56, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
+:: Thanks for the quick response. -- [[User:JackofOz|<span style="font-family: Papyrus;">Jack of Oz</span>]] [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<span style="font-size:85%; font-family: Verdana;"><sup>[pleasantries]</sup></span>]] 09:58, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
+== Claim that Columbus severed hands for failing to pay tribute is NOT supported by historical record ==
-The following passage,in the main article, appears to be flawed in it's interpretation of Columbus's log -
+This allegation against Columbus is not supported by the historical record. It was first stated by Hans Koning, a source with questionable authority and motive, in 1976. It appears nowhere prior to that. It was popularized by Howard Zinn's People's History of the United States which borrowed heavily from Koning's book. But the primary source record does NOT state what the punishment for failing to pay the tribute was. Therefore, this CANNOT be stated as fact.
-Early in the voyage, Columbus predicted that land should be found within 700 leagues (approx. 2500 miles), and ordered the commanders of the other vessels to refrain from sailing at night once that distance had passed to avoid wrecking.[6] He also hedged his bets by keeping two logs of the distance traveled - a secret log with the true distance, and an altered copy that he shared with the crew, showing much less.[5][6] -
+For an extensive analysis of this claim, I explain it here, with a comprehensive look at what the historical record says on the matter: https://historyinfocus.net/2024/09/27/columbus-and-the-myth-of-severed-hands/ [[Special:Contributions/2601:18C:8202:5A40:DA:C230:8704:888B|2601:18C:8202:5A40:DA:C230:8704:888B]] ([[User talk:2601:18C:8202:5A40:DA:C230:8704:888B|talk]]) 09:34, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
-Obviously, if Columbus really believed there was a risk of wrecking, because they might be approaching land, after the fleet had sailed 700 leagues, it would make no sense to misinform the crew, during the voyage, that the accrued distance sailed was less, because that would have put the fleet at risk.
-Columbus's log does indeed state that he noted smaller distances to the crew 'so that they would not be afraid'. Different historians have tried explain this curiosity but, so far, none have succeeded in providing a fully credible explanation. J. Fowler  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/81.145.241.250|81.145.241.250]] ([[User talk:81.145.241.250|talk]]) 20:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
-A pretty bad article if you go by the references. Washington Irving is the author of the nonsense about the log -- historians consider his work on Columbus to be as fictional as his other stories. Irving also invented the myth that Europeans thought the earth was flat. I've edited it.--[[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 22:49, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
-I've added a couple of templates but they may well be the wrong ones.  The main references for this are 19th century writers, and I very much doubt its reliability -- I know that there are a lot of issues with what we know or think we know about the voyage, the business about the 2 logs being only one example.--[[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 08:14, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
-See http://www.millersville.edu/~columbus/data/art/KEEGAN02.ART for a comment on Irving's reliability.--[[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 08:15, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
-Yes, I agree with the observations noted above. Considering the volumes that have been written about Columbus and his times, it's odd that so much of the mythology continues to thrive. Also, in that regard - with reference to the 'First voyage' section in the main article -. the paragraph which begins ' On September 8th.1492'  seems to be a rather apocryphal interpretation of what was actually stated in Columbus's log, regarding compass errors and the crew concerns. In reality, the significance of the compass references in the Columbus log for September 13th. and 17th. aren't well understood.
-(It would take a brave historian to make the claim that fifteenth century compasses didn't normally have errors.The fact that Columbus's pilots appeared to be regularly checking the compasses only tends to confirm that they were aware that such errors occurred. Rather than 'panic', it's possible that they may have been demanding clear orders from their commander about the allowances to be made for compass errors in the courses which they steered.)
-Suggest that particular paragraph be prefixed as legendary - or provided with specific citations and references.  J. Fowler  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/81.145.242.140|81.145.242.140]] ([[User talk:81.145.242.140|talk]]) 14:50, 19 February 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
-'''BAD (first voyage) MAP!'''
-----
-The map labeled "The route of first voyage of Columbus in the Caribbean" is not only at odds with other sources (in print and on the internet), but contradicts the first map showing all of the voyages of Columbus.
-Whoever wrote this article AND INCLUDED THE MAP LABELED "The route of first voyage of Columbus in the Caribbean" needs to offer some kind of citation to SUPPORT the insertion of this particular map in the article, with the strong implication that it is accurate.  Although I am certainly no expert on Columbus' voyages, NOTHING that I have ever seen supports the accuracy of the map labeled "The route of first voyage of Columbus in the Caribbean."
-The evidence seems to be overwhelming that Columbus headed generally northward or northeastward from Hispaniola, picked up the westerlies and then used them to return to the Azores, which are far, far to the north of the Canaries, from which he made his first significant move westward toward the "New World."  Columbus seems to have caught on pretty quickly that one uses the easterlies to go west, and the westerlies to go east--thus heading generally northward or northeastward to find favorable winds to return to Spain.  ONE CANNOT GET BACK TO SPAIN GOING AGAINST THE EASTERLIES WITH OLD SQUARE-RIGGED SHIPS!
-WHAT IS SHOWN IS AN ERROR OF MAPS OF THE FIRST MAGNITUDE, ONE NOT SUPPORTED BY THE EVIDENCE OR BY MODERN SCHOLARSHIP.  This kind of shoddy work is the reason that some very reputable scholars become indignant at times with Wikipedia as a reliable source of information.
-I cannot believe that '''the two maps given which purport to show the first voyage DO NOT EVEN AGREE WITH EACH OTHER!'''  This is an outrageous and egregious error!
-The map labeled "The route of first voyage of Columbus in the Caribbean" '''NEEDS TO BE DELETED IMMEDIATELY''', UNTIL SUCH TIME AS SOME ONE CAN CITE SOME SOURCE(S) INDICATING THAT IT IS CORRECT!  (Good luck finding that kind of evidence or supporting documentation!)
-[[User:Landrumkelly|Landrumkelly]] ([[User talk:Landrumkelly|talk]]) 03:12, 28 August 2009 (UTC)