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:::*'''Comment''': Please refrain from making accusations to other users. It is unproductive, and does not help meet consensus. None of this has anything to do with the standards required to make an article notable. Again, I must ask that you focus on the standards under [[Wikipedia:Notability]] and [[Wikipedia:Verifiability]]. --[[User:Haemo|Haemo]] 03:08, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
:::*'''Comment''': Please refrain from making accusations to other users. It is unproductive, and does not help meet consensus. None of this has anything to do with the standards required to make an article notable. Again, I must ask that you focus on the standards under [[Wikipedia:Notability]] and [[Wikipedia:Verifiability]]. --[[User:Haemo|Haemo]] 03:08, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
::::* I am trying to focus on those standards because they are the reason this AFD page exists, but what annoys me is that throughout this page, Guy has misrepresented facts, wrongly inferred things, misused the SPA tag, and appears to be ignoring most of the evidence. From a newbie who isn't aware of protocol around here that kind of stuff is acceptable, but from an ''experienced'' admin, it is absolutely terrible.[[User:Darkcraft|Darkcraft]] 09:13, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
::::* I am trying to focus on those standards because they are the reason this AFD page exists, but what annoys me is that throughout this page, Guy has misrepresented facts, wrongly inferred things, misused the SPA tag, and appears to be ignoring most of the evidence. From a newbie who isn't aware of protocol around here that kind of stuff is acceptable, but from an ''experienced'' admin, it is absolutely terrible.[[User:Darkcraft|Darkcraft]] 09:13, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
*'''Weak keep''' per 7 and perhaps 8. The Swiss newspaper is available online for paying subscribers, so it's verifiable, but not yet verified. The Polish magazine isn't verifiable without the name of the magazine, that ''really'' needs to be known. [[User:Secateur|Secateur]] 19:45, 4 January 2007 (UTC) {{spa|Secateur}}
*'''Weak keep''' per 7 and perhaps 8. The Swiss newspaper is available online for paying subscribers, so it's verifiable, but not yet verified. The Polish magazine isn't verifiable without the name of the magazine, that ''really'' needs to be known. [[User:Secateur|Secateur]] 19:45, 4 January 2007 (UTC) <small>— [[User:Secateur|Secateur]] ([[User talk:Secateur|talk]]&#32;• [[Special:Contributions/Secateur|contribs]]) has made [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|few or no other edits]] outside this topic. </small>
:*'''Comment''': Again, a single reference, which may or may not be verifiable - we do not know, since no one has access to the newspaper archives online - does not qualify the article for inclusion under [[Wikipedia:notability]]. --[[User:Haemo|Haemo]] 03:08, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
:*'''Comment''': Again, a single reference, which may or may not be verifiable - we do not know, since no one has access to the newspaper archives online - does not qualify the article for inclusion under [[Wikipedia:notability]]. --[[User:Haemo|Haemo]] 03:08, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
::The article can be found on page 24 on the Nov 23, 2006 issue of Tages Anzeiger, available online on pressdisplay.com . It's in German, though, so I can't read what it says, but other editors should be able to verify what it says. However, you certainly have a point regarding the Polish magazine, which isn't verifiable. I thought the name would surface eventually, but maybe not? [[User:Secateur|Secateur]] 04:16, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
::The article can be found on page 24 on the Nov 23, 2006 issue of Tages Anzeiger, available online on pressdisplay.com . It's in German, though, so I can't read what it says, but other editors should be able to verify what it says. However, you certainly have a point regarding the Polish magazine, which isn't verifiable. I thought the name would surface eventually, but maybe not? [[User:Secateur|Secateur]] 04:16, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
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:::Apparently you need an account to view this article, even with pressdisplay.com. That's very unfortunate - do you have a clean screenshot, or transcript of the article. I know several people who read German who could translate for us. --[[User:Haemo|Haemo]] 05:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
:::Apparently you need an account to view this article, even with pressdisplay.com. That's very unfortunate - do you have a clean screenshot, or transcript of the article. I know several people who read German who could translate for us. --[[User:Haemo|Haemo]] 05:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
::::While Darkcraft might have a clean screenshot, I don't. Because pressdisplay.com charge for their services, it might very well be against their rules to take a screenshot, I don't know. [[User:Secateur|Secateur]] 12:32, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
::::While Darkcraft might have a clean screenshot, I don't. Because pressdisplay.com charge for their services, it might very well be against their rules to take a screenshot, I don't know. [[User:Secateur|Secateur]] 12:32, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', I don't see why this is such a big issue with everyone. This comic is notable and quite popular as outlined in previous comments. Why is it such a big deal to wish for it do be deleted? It's not like Wikipedia is running out of space...[[User:Dooster|Dooster]] 16:45, 4 January 2007 -5 GMT {{spa|Dooster}}
*'''Keep''', I don't see why this is such a big issue with everyone. This comic is notable and quite popular as outlined in previous comments. Why is it such a big deal to wish for it do be deleted? It's not like Wikipedia is running out of space...[[User:Dooster|Dooster]] 16:45, 4 January 2007 -5 GMT <small>— [[User:Dooster|Dooster]] ([[User talk:Dooster|talk]]&#32;• [[Special:Contributions/Dooster|contribs]]) has made [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|few or no other edits]] outside this topic. </small>


*'''Keep''' You begin to wonder what makes a comic notable. Whether or not the author goes on a hiatus should not be taken into consideration regarding the '''notability''' of the comic. This has been confirmed to have been in one newspaper. You'd be better off trying to find other webcomic articles that have no notability at all. According to the notability guidelines, it has to have been the subject of multiple published sources. We currently have one newspaper and one magazine. If I'm not mistaken that's multiple. [[User:IndecisionV|IndecisionV]] 23:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC) {{spa|IndecisionV}}
*'''Keep''' You begin to wonder what makes a comic notable. Whether or not the author goes on a hiatus should not be taken into consideration regarding the '''notability''' of the comic. This has been confirmed to have been in one newspaper. You'd be better off trying to find other webcomic articles that have no notability at all. According to the notability guidelines, it has to have been the subject of multiple published sources. We currently have one newspaper and one magazine. If I'm not mistaken that's multiple. [[User:IndecisionV|IndecisionV]] 23:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC) <small>— [[User:IndecisionV|IndecisionV]] ([[User talk:IndecisionV|talk]]&#32;• [[Special:Contributions/IndecisionV|contribs]]) has made [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|few or no other edits]] outside this topic. </small>


:* JZG (or Guy) I noticed you added three SPA tags after the above messages. In my opinion, one was done rightly so, but the other two accounts were created before this page existed and have had a fair number of edits.It clearly states in the SPA guildines that inappropriate use of this tag can lead to action being taken against you. [[User:Darkcraft|Darkcraft]] 01:15, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
:* JZG (or Guy) I noticed you added three SPA tags after the above messages. In my opinion, one was done rightly so, but the other two accounts were created before this page existed and have had a fair number of edits.It clearly states in the SPA guildines that inappropriate use of this tag can lead to action being taken against you. [[User:Darkcraft|Darkcraft]] 01:15, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
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::::::'''Comment''' - [[WP:NOTE]] is inclusive, not exclusive. It specifically outlines what is required to meet the standards - it does not list things which do ''not'' qualify it, because there are an endless number of those. Alexa ranking are not mentioned, therefore they do not qualify to make an article notable - it does not matter if the material is ''objective'' or ''unbiased''; that really has nothing to do with [[WP:NOTE]]. Again, your use of an alternative argument is flawed - it does not meet standards under [[WP:NOTE]], and it does not meet standards under [[Wikipedia:Notability (web)]]. In fact, [[Wikipedia:Notability (web)]] ''specifically'' mentions webcomics in describing the standards laid out. Webcomics are not permitted more "leeway" in the guidelines, and that is made explicitly clear. --[[User:Haemo|Haemo]] 02:10, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
::::::'''Comment''' - [[WP:NOTE]] is inclusive, not exclusive. It specifically outlines what is required to meet the standards - it does not list things which do ''not'' qualify it, because there are an endless number of those. Alexa ranking are not mentioned, therefore they do not qualify to make an article notable - it does not matter if the material is ''objective'' or ''unbiased''; that really has nothing to do with [[WP:NOTE]]. Again, your use of an alternative argument is flawed - it does not meet standards under [[WP:NOTE]], and it does not meet standards under [[Wikipedia:Notability (web)]]. In fact, [[Wikipedia:Notability (web)]] ''specifically'' mentions webcomics in describing the standards laid out. Webcomics are not permitted more "leeway" in the guidelines, and that is made explicitly clear. --[[User:Haemo|Haemo]] 02:10, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


*'''Delete''' for failing the [[WP:N|notability guidelines]] for [[WP:WEB|web-based material]]. The article does not cite multiple, non-trivial, [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] indicating notability. In addition the lack of accessible third-party sources makes the article [[WP:V|unverifiable]]. In response to Darkcraft on the point of other articles being in the 'pedia, [[WP:INN|inclusion is not an indicator of notability]], nor is the [[WP:POKEMON|Pokemon defense]] a strong argument. '''<font color="red">[[User:Zunaid|Zun]]</font><font color="green">[[User Talk:Zunaid|aid]]</font><font color="blue">[[Special:Contributions/Zunaid|©]]</font><font color="orange">[[Wikipedia:Editor review/Zunaid|<sup>Review me!</sup>]]</font>''' 12:50, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' for failing the [[WP:N|notability guidelines]] for [[WP:WEB|web-based material]]. The article does not cite multiple, non-trivial, [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] indicating notability. In addition the lack of accessible third-party sources makes the article [[WP:V|unverifiable]]. In response to Darkcraft on the point of other articles being in the 'pedia, [[WP:INN|inclusion is not an indicator of notability]], nor is the [[WP:Pokémon test|Pokemon defense]] a strong argument. '''[[User:Zunaid|<span style="color:red;">Zun</span>]][[User Talk:Zunaid|<span style="color:green;">aid</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Zunaid|<span style="color:blue;">©</span>]][[Wikipedia:Editor review/Zunaid|<sup style="color:orange;">Review me!</sup>]]''' 12:50, 5 January 2007 (UTC)


:<s>I very strongly disagree with your decision and it seems as though most of the community agrees with me. In my opinion, I was not using the 'Pokemon Defence' as I was drawing no parallels between this artical and 'Chugworth', but I was trying to make people look at the decision process behind deciding whether an artical on a webcomic exists or not, and why it differs from Chugworth to Gone With The Blastwave. As for the inclusion not equaling notability, I could find many other webcomics on Wikipedia from which I could use a similar process to invalidate the WP:NOTE arguement. In general, I believe that Wikipedia is too hard on webcomics because it is so difficult for them to fulfill those criteria. I would have liked another day of debate because I would have liked to have seen a rebuttal to my post just above yours, and I believe 'Guy' was not acting as he should have.</s>
:<s>I very strongly disagree with your decision and it seems as though most of the community agrees with me. In my opinion, I was not using the 'Pokemon Defence' as I was drawing no parallels between this artical and 'Chugworth', but I was trying to make people look at the decision process behind deciding whether an artical on a webcomic exists or not, and why it differs from Chugworth to Gone With The Blastwave. As for the inclusion not equaling notability, I could find many other webcomics on Wikipedia from which I could use a similar process to invalidate the WP:NOTE arguement. In general, I believe that Wikipedia is too hard on webcomics because it is so difficult for them to fulfill those criteria. I would have liked another day of debate because I would have liked to have seen a rebuttal to my post just above yours, and I believe 'Guy' was not acting as he should have.</s>
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::::::::::* And if you scroll down this page (http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/news.php?i=1133) you will see an image painted by the artist of this webcomic which was sent to CAD. Maybe not completely relevent, but it shows that two of the largest webcomics in existance have recognised Kimmo Lemetti as a great artist. [[User:Darkcraft|Darkcraft]] 04:29, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::* And if you scroll down this page (http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/news.php?i=1133) you will see an image painted by the artist of this webcomic which was sent to CAD. Maybe not completely relevent, but it shows that two of the largest webcomics in existance have recognised Kimmo Lemetti as a great artist. [[User:Darkcraft|Darkcraft]] 04:29, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::* Sorry one more thing. I don't know what this is, but I think it may be a transcript of the magazine text. Altnabla tells me it is relevent, so I might as well post a link: http://www.wzl.be/fun/index.asp?par=f_post&ID=2163&y=2006&m=7&d=26 Thanks again Altnabla![[User:Darkcraft|Darkcraft]] 04:32, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::* Sorry one more thing. I don't know what this is, but I think it may be a transcript of the magazine text. Altnabla tells me it is relevent, so I might as well post a link: http://www.wzl.be/fun/index.asp?par=f_post&ID=2163&y=2006&m=7&d=26 Thanks again Altnabla![[User:Darkcraft|Darkcraft]] 04:32, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page. <!--Template:Afd bottom--></div>
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page.'' <!--Template:Afd bottom--></div>

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