Talk:Entrée

Salad Picture

To someone who doesn't know what an appetizer is, a picture of a salad is very misleading. Maybe a steak? While the caption explains the salad, the picture is needlessly confusing and out of place in this article (also, most people don't read captions). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.243.110.128 (talk) 03:33, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

I think the whole point of showing a salad is to indicate that outside the US an entrée is more likely to resemble what would be considered an appetizer in the US - a steak is exactly the wrong thing to show, as traditionally an entrée would precede a meat dish. Outside North America "entrée" is rarely used to describe the main course or a substantial meat dish (although the article suggests the American-style use of the word is now accepted in the UK, it is rarely used this way on menus or in conversation, and most British people would still be confused by the use of the term to describe something like a steak unless they were very familiar with American English). Someone glancing at the pictures would probably get the accurate impression that the word entrée can cover quite a wide range of different types of dishes, so I see no need to change it. --missdipsy (talk) 08:24, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Wrong, completely wrong. Traditionally, entrées were ONLY meat dishes, and tournedos (slices of tenderloin larger than filet mignon) were the entrée par excellence through much of the 19th century: tournedos Rossini, tournedos Henri IV, tournedos Lucullus—the list is long. Contrary to 20th-century practice (post World War I), butcher's meat (beef, veal, mutton, and lamb) always preceded fowl and feathered game. Birds were considered the finest and most delicate and therefore most appropriate meat to serve as the climax of the meal. The modern taste for steak as the main course would have been viewed with suspicion in past centuries. Salad is not and really cannot be an entrée, even in modern lingo. A first-course salad is a cold hors d'oeuvre, and even that is a new, very American introduction to table service; it originated in California and was a recent trend when Amy Vanderbilt mentioned it her 1957 Complete Book of Etiquette, p. 340. Even in France, where entrées are no longer confined to meat, a salad would be an unlikely choice. The crudités that often start a meal are cold hors d'oeuvres, just as in the US. MonteGargano (talk) 23:00, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

I disagree: not completely wrong at all! MonteGargano, while you have given us the historical background (and very interesting it is), Missdipsy was talking (accurately, in my view) about how the term is used in most of the world today -- and that is surely what needs to come first in any Wikipedia article.

I feel I must also take issue with you regarding your statement that Even in France ... a salad would be an unlikely choice [of entrée]. The French Wikipedia article entitled Entrée (cuisine) gives as its first illustration an image captioned Une salade telle que celle-ci peut constituer une entrée (A salad like this may constitute an entrée). -- Picapica (talk) 09:18, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

Broader Dialect Groupings

I've changed British and Australian to Commonwealth because I believe this is the use in all non-North American dialects. I've also changed American to North American because the term is also so used in Canada. - Jim 22Apr05

You have introduced a contradiction since Canadian English is included in Commonwealth English. As a side note, the use of entrée for the main course is not universal across North America. In particular, in the mostly French-speaking province of Quebec, the local English population uses the term entrée in the same way as that the French and non-North American English speakers do. Kilrogg 23:11, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Ambiguity deleted. --JackLumber 22:36, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

---

Whilst I have NOT changed the content of the page this discussion is attached to. I do question the term North American English, surely it should be North American or English. Better still North American or Commonwealth English because I am sure no member of the Commonwealth (in recent years) would regard the American language as the same as the English language; they have become different.

I also question " In North American English, an entrée is the main course, following now-obsolete French usage". Who said the French usage was now-obsolete, certainly I do not believe it was the French - or the (Commonwealth) English for that matter. Another reason to differentiate between American and English (or Commonwealth English) perhaps. – Mark (half French, half English), 3rd January 2006.

In restaurants in France today, "entrée" means the first course, served before the "plat principal" and after the "hors d'oeuvre" or "amuse-bouche" if any. I do not believe it ever means the main course nowadays. However, it has meant that in the past (sorry, I don't have my French dictionaries handy here). --Macrakis 16:07, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm a member of the Commonwealth, and I regard the American language as a dialect of English. English language describes 'English' as "a West Germanic language that is spoken in Australia, Canada, India, Ireland, New Zealand, Pakistan, South Africa, Sri Lanka, the United Kingdom, the United States, and many other countries." See also American English, which refers to "the dialect of the English language used mostly in the United States of America".

Describing it as "totally different" to Commonwealth English is hyperbole at best. There are certainly differences (for instance, American English has preserved certain older spellings that Commonwealth English abandoned), but speakers of one dialect have little difficulty making themselves understood by the other. --Calair 01:27, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

To Macrakis: Could you please provide evidence that "entrée" in older french was used for the main course? The etymology suggests that it was meant to mean "starter" or "opening dish" from the beginning. Thanks. --tonis1 06:35, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

"Entrées" meant the "first dishes of the meal" in the 16th century and possibly earlier, then again in the 20th century. In between, they were not the first dishes, nor were they small dishes. In the 18th century, they were more or less equal to other parts of the meal, such as roasts and entremets. By the early 19th century, entrées had become the main part of the meal, with later courses, including the roast, being very dainty dishes and not substantial at all. All culinary terminology became fuzzy around the year 1900, and the two World Wars overturned almost all the old ways of doing things. MonteGargano (talk) 14:09, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

usage of entree / urban myth

is there anything to substantiate that the usage of entree in the US describing the main course has to do with the fact that the portions are so big that after the entree there is no desire for the main course?

Noserider (talk) 14:16, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, there are sources in the early 19th century that make this very claim. I had planned to add that material to this article at some point, but that sort of detail is apparently outside the scope of a proper Wikipedia article. MonteGargano (talk) 17:38, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

I have finally had time to add some 19th-century sources that unequivocally state that the entrées were the principal dishes of the meal. That is the basis of the use of the term in the US, as further discussed by Dan Juraksy in an essay footnoted in the article. MonteGargano (talk) 16:14, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Disambiguation

It's also an acronym for European Network for Training and Research in Electrical Engineering. How do we do disambiguation? - Tony

Contradiction (UK usage)

The first paragraph says this course is called a starter in the UK; the next section says it's called a starter (among other things) in the US and an entrée elsewhere.

I live in the UK and "starter" is the generally accepted term here. "Entrée" isn't widely used in my experience, and would probably be regarded as pretentious in many circumstances (akin to saying "Pommes Frites" when you mean chips). This term may be used at more expensive restaurants, but certainly not at the typical curry house, a steak house or a Chinese restaurant that the average Brit would dine out in. 217.155.20.163 (talk) 19:53, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Sharing an entree -- rude or not?

In the July 15, 2008 Nintendo Wii Everybody Votes Channel results, 81.4% of Americans believe it isn't rude to share an entrée. Other countries may have different views, but which ones??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.214.244.25 (talk) 12:39, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Contradiction (US usage)

The first paragraph correctly says that in North America (at least the English-speaking part), the course that the French call an entrée is called a first course, appetizer, or starter. (In my experience, the most common U.S. usage is "appetizer," though the other two terms are also used. In Britain, "starter" is the most common.) However, in the third paragraph of the "Origins" section, it's repeatedly said (without attribution) that in American usage the course is called the hors d'oeuvre. This is quite wrong; in the U.S., hors d'oeuvres are much the same as they are in France: not the first course of the meal, but small bites preceding a meal, usually passed by waiters or laid out on a buffet, though conceivably but rarely presented at the table itself. Wbkelley (talk) 02:40, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. In the U.S., "appetizer" is the most common term for what is called an "entrée" in French. "Starter" is gaining popularity. "Hors d'oeuvres" is never used for a substantive first course.

Qualification Required

I added some qualifications to the first paragraph since this term has become very common in advertising for mass-market restaurants, frozen food, and even pet food, but it is still, I am glad to say, not universal in North America. It is rarely heard in speech, and not even used in many upscale restaurants. Lee1999 (talk) 04:28, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

In Canada?

It seemed a little bizarre to me that "entree" apparently refers to the meal itself rather than the meal that comes before the main course. I live in Southern Ontario and I've only really heard people use "entree" to refer to the food that comes before the main course. In restaurants, waiters and waitresses will sometimes ask if a person wants an "entree" before their meal. I guess I'm wondering if the description of "English Canada" using the same references for an entree as the United States is accurate or merely regional. I find different areas in Canada are far more Americanized than others, e.g. Alberta, British Columbia, and parts of Ontario. Celynn (talk) 06:01, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Remaining contradiction

"The term entrée is rarely used for an hors d'oeuvre, also called the first course, appetizer, or starter. In France, however, the term "entrée", a French word which means an entrance or beginning, always describes a first course, not the main course."

This seems to take the American perspective, because far from being a 'rare' usage, that is the ordinary usage seemingly everywhere but the USA. Of course I am too lazy to edit this myself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.184.11 (talk) 14:35, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Unnecessary trivia

Under the section "Use": "In Mrs. Beeton's Book of Household Management, chapter 40, bills of fare for a grand dinner for eighteen, January 1887, follow two kinds of fish and two kinds of soup with four entrées: Ris de Veau, Poulet à la Marengo, Côtelettes de Porc and a Ragoût of Lobster. Guests were not expected to eat of each dish, of course, for the entrées were followed by a Second Course and a Third Course, of game and fruit."

Why is this information included here? It's not very informative or concise for inclusion in this section, and it seems like it should be in "History" instead, for example. 72.199.147.169 (talk) 06:55, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

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False information

I have removed a paragraph that discussed an "entrée procession" and an image of a 15th-century miniature that purported to show such a procession. None of the text was based on any primary documentation or current research on this topic. It is no surprise that no sources were cited since the information has no basis. The word entrée was not even used in a culinary sense in the 15th century. There were processions at high-status meals, but these were conducted for every "course" of the meal, most spectacularly for the service of the roasts, not the preceding courses. The miniature painting that I removed appears to depict the roast course. Regardless, none of this is germane to this article. MonteGargano (talk • contribs) 17:43, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Add the Castilian article to the language links

Primer plato - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre Brauxljo (talk) 01:45, 9 September 2022 (UTC)