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{{WikiProject Lithuania|class=FA|importance=mid}}
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{{WikiProject Socialism|class=FA|importance=top}}
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{{WikiProject Biography|living=n|class=FA|listas=Pilsudski, Jozef Klemens|military-work-group=y|military-priority=Mid|politician-work-group=y|politician-priority=Mid}}
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{{WikiProject Military history|class=FA|A-Class=pass|Biography=y|Polish=y|WWI=y}}
{{WikiProject Politics|class=FA|importance=Mid}}
{{WikiProject Politics|importance=Mid}}
{{WikiProject Poland|class=FA|importance=Top}}
{{WikiProject Poland|importance=Top}}
{{WikiProject Soviet Union|class=FA|importance=Mid|mil=y}}
{{WikiProject Soviet Union|importance=Mid|mil=y}}
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{{Archive box|search=yes|
{{Archive box|search=yes|
* [[Talk:Józef Piłsudski/Archive 1|Archive 1]] <small>(2003–2006)</small>
* [[Talk:Józef Piłsudski/Archive 1|Archive 1]] <small>(2003–2006)</small>
* [[Talk:Józef Piłsudski/Archive 2|Archive 2]] <small>(2007–2008)</small>
* [[Talk:Józef Piłsudski/Archive 2|Archive 2]] <small>(2007–2008)</small>
* [[Talk:Józef Piłsudski/Archive 3|Archive 3]] <small>(2009–2018)</small>
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== Religion ==
I've heard that Pilsudski, although born Roman Catholic, became a Lutheran when he married in 1899, since his wife was of that faith. Unless anyone knows anything to the contrary, this should be in the article. [[User:Ausseagull|Ausseagull]] ([[User talk:Ausseagull|talk]]) 14:51, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
:If this information can be properly referenced, per [[WP:V]] and [[WP:CITE]], I support adding it. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<font style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> talk </font>]]</span></sub> 17:26, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
::this should be addressed because he is listed in the category "converts to Catholicism from Lutheranism" and the sidebar gives his religion as Roman Catholic (occasionally Lutheran) without any source. --[[User:Richardson mcphillips|Richardson mcphillips]] ([[User talk:Richardson mcphillips|talk]]) 21:56, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

== Józefa ==
Why is he not called Józefa? 15:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC) <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Rob G Weemhoff|Rob G Weemhoff]] ([[User talk:Rob G Weemhoff|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rob G Weemhoff|contribs]]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Because he was a [[male]] and his [[Poland|Polish]] [[given name]] was, accordingly, "Józef". [[User:Nihil novi|Nihil novi]] ([[User talk:Nihil novi|talk]]) 01:29, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
::In other words, Józef=Joseph, Józefa=Josephine :) --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<font style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> talk </font>]]</span></sub> 04:59, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
:::You may indeed have seen Piłsudski's given name spelled "Józefa". That would have been the name in its [[genitive case|genitive]] ("of Joseph") or [[accusative case|accusative]] ("Joseph" as [[direct object]]) case. [[User:Nihil novi|Nihil novi]] ([[User talk:Nihil novi|talk]]) 05:44, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
::::In fact, I saw his name mostly as "Jozefa". Can you please explain why for example many memorial plaques do that? -- 13:26, 5 August 2009 (UTC)-- 13:27, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
::::[I did sign with 4 tildes, but it does not turn up] 13:29, 5 August 2009 (UTC) <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Rob G Weemhoff|Rob G Weemhoff]] ([[User talk:Rob G Weemhoff|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rob G Weemhoff|contribs]]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:::::Give us some examples of such memorial-plaque texts. [[User:Nihil novi|Nihil novi]] ([[User talk:Nihil novi|talk]]) 14:02, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::You will find some on: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3zef_Pi%C5%82sudski but I have a photograph from Krakov with the text: Pomnik Marszałka Józefa Piłsudskiego Został uroczscie ... -- 14:48, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::"A statue '''''of''''' Marshal [[Józef Piłsudski]] was solemnly [unveiled]..." It's the [[genitive case]]! You would understand this, had you studied [[Latin]], which is, like Polish, an [[inflected language]]. [[User:Nihil novi|Nihil novi]] ([[User talk:Nihil novi|talk]]) 14:55, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

== Dictator Revisited ==
The issue is not whether this Lithuanian became dictator of Poland. He did. I'm not claiming whether this was bad or was good. Just that it's a fact. An addition like..."''but widely accepted and supported by majority of the Polish population''" does what? Change any of those facts? [[Hitler]] and [[Mussolini]] were dictators who were widely accepted and supported by majority of their populations. So what? It's a meaningless entry. [[User:Dr. Dan|Dr. Dan]] ([[User talk:Dr. Dan|talk]]) 22:04, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

== saved Baltic states? ==
''Statues and memorials of Piłsudski were erected in Estonia and Latvia after Piłsudski's death, the Baltic states to this day (with the exception of Lithuania) still look with favour on Piłsudski for saving them from Communist Russia.''<br>
Now I cannot comment situation in Latvia, but I can pretty certainly say that Piłsudski isn't considered to have "saved" Estonia from Communist Russia. [[Estonian War of Independence]] was over by the time then [[Polish-Soviet War]] properly heated up, and I am not aware of any direct cooperation between Estonian and Polish forces. I do believe that Poland and Pilsudski were viewed generally positively, but definitely not considered "saviors". Speaking of "saving" its actually sometimes mentioned, that by being first nation to repel Soviet westward advance and therefore receiving major Red Army attention after that, Estonia actually gave other Baltic states and Poland more time to organize forces :P --[[User:Staberinde|Staberinde]] ([[User talk:Staberinde|talk]]) 12:07, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
:As I see, that part has no [[WP:RS|reliable source]], therefore it can be deleted. [[User:M.K|M.K.]] ([[User talk:M.K|talk]]) 16:38, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

== Ukrainian name of Krakow ==
Well, why is important that the ukrainian name of Krakow ist Krakiv in this article? Especially since the paragraph in which this detail is mentioned has nothing to do with Ukraine?
Deleted it. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/84.114.157.68|84.114.157.68]] ([[User talk:84.114.157.68|talk]]) 21:34, 8 February 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Pole or Lithuanian? ==
It could good to add how he decribed himself:
„Jestem Litwinem” (I'm Lithuanian) [http://www.prawica.net/node/16789] and "Litwin to najlepszy Polak" (Lithuanian is the best Pole).
[[User:Norvila|Norvila]] ([[User talk:Norvila|talk]]) 23:02, 3 April 2010 (EET)
:If you could provide a reliable cite for "Litwin to najlepszy Polak", I'd very much like to see it. I am afraid at best your quote is mangled, as I am getting no hits in [[Google Books]]. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<font style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> talk </font>]]</span></sub> 22:47, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
::There is much confusion about the term "Lithuanian". The truth is that this term traditionally denotes "an ethnic Pole who is living on the territory of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania". Therefore Piłsudski, Mickiewicz &c. are properly "Lithuanians" not ceasing to be Poles. Mickiewicz even does a remark on it in his writings: "Litwin i Mazur bracia są; czyż kłócą się bracia o to, iż jednemu na imię Władysław, drugiemu Witowt? Nazwisko ich jedne jest: nazwisko Polaków" (A Lithuanian and a Masurian are brothers; do brothers quarrel, because the one is named Ladislav and the other Witold? They have the same last name, the name of Poles). The term changed its meaning, the people we now call "Lithuanians", by Piłsudski and Mickiewicz would be called "Samogitians". [[Special:Contributions/159.205.56.119|159.205.56.119]] ([[User talk:159.205.56.119|talk]]) 19:33, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
>If term "Lithuanians" changed its meaning to "Samogitians", then the term "Poles" definitely should be changed to "Masurians" <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/83.181.14.219|83.181.14.219]] ([[User talk:83.181.14.219#top|talk]]) 21:21, 15 August 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::You misunderstood. In Mickiewicz's view (quoted and translated above) both terms, the "Lithuanian" and "Masurian", denote some subsets of the more general term "a Pole". But this of course does not mean, that these two subsets are exclusive, as Poland (in his view) had more regions than just these two. Mickiewicz is writing from the point of view of the old Republic (where "a Pole" = a Polish-speaking citizen of the Republic, and Lithuanian, Masurian, Greater-Polish, Lesser-Polish, Ruthenian etc. are just indications of the region where the person is living), and Piłsudski's self-identification as a "Lithuanian" comes from the same tradition. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/46.215.107.141|46.215.107.141]] ([[User talk:46.215.107.141#top|talk]]) 21:58, 22 August 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Length ==
For a featured article this is awfully long (133 kb). How would people feel about trimming this down some? [[User:TallNapoleon|TallNapoleon]] ([[User talk:TallNapoleon|talk]]) 05:01, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

== Contradictions ==
''Piłsudski was aware that the Bolsheviks were no friends of independent Poland, and that war with them was inevitable''. The next paragraph reads, ''This was in contrast to the Bolsheviks, who proclaimed the partitions of Poland null and void... Piłsudski thus speculated that Poland would be better off with the Bolsheviks''. Both citations are backed by the same source, but it needs clarification. --Klaus Bertow 08:40, 5 April 2010 (UTC) <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Klaus Bertow|Klaus Bertow]] ([[User talk:Klaus Bertow|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Klaus Bertow|contribs]]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:It is clarified by the "He viewed their advance west as a major problem, but also considered the Bolsheviks less dangerous for Poland than their Russian Civil War opponents" sentence. Basically, Piłsudski expected that Bolshevicks would try to take over Poland, but had less of a chance at that than the conservative tsarist-royalists, who saw Poland as part of the Empire, and who had more international support. Hence, even if both sides were hostile to Polish independence, Piłsudski believed Poland could handle victorious Bolshevicks easier than the victorious royalists. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<font style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> talk </font>]]</sub> 05:01, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

== Nice stache. ==
[[User:Tisane|Tisane]] ([[User talk:Tisane|talk]]) 22:24, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

:He actually had this big mustache, because two of his front teeth were knocked out during interrogation. It would be nice to integrate this somewhere in the article, but easier said than done, because it is a bit of a trivia at the same time [[User:Cambr5|Cambr5]] ([[User talk:Cambr5|talk]]) 17:38, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

== November 11 ,and October 7, of 1918 ==
Article states that Piłsudski claimed independence on November 11, 1918. But actually and formally Poland became independent on day 7 October, 1918. From this day, rules over Poland was in hand of president on the emigration (in UK AFAIK). So November 11, was more just a day Piłsudski aquired rights from them. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/91.213.255.7|91.213.255.7]] ([[User talk:91.213.255.7|talk]]) 23:36, 30 November 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Ancestry ==
I removed the alleged Count title for the Butler family as it does not concern this branch (the Counts are descendant of Gotthard-Wilhelm von Buttlar). These Butlers were confirmed as noble on September 19, 1805 by the nobility assembly of Wilno (see for example the report № 629 of the heraldry department of the governing senate taken on October 24, 1829). Missing names come from further documents of said heraldry department. [[User:Charlik|Charlik]] ([[User talk:Charlik|talk]]) 09:08, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
:I believe I did make a point of sorts by not having a reply. Would please any serious researcher about the Piłsudski ancestry contact me - I have in copious information about his ''babka z Butlerow''. --[[User:Charlik|Charlik]] ([[User talk:Charlik|talk]]) 19:26, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

::Is there an error to be corrected in this article? --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<font style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</font>]]</sub> 05:43, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

== Brother Kazimierz ==
Polish Wikipedia mentions that he had also a brother named Kazimierz. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/79.184.215.77|79.184.215.77]] ([[User talk:79.184.215.77|talk]]) 10:11, 7 May 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:True, but he probably belongs to the article about [[Piłsudski family]]. [[:pl:Kazimierz Piłsudski]] was not a very notable figure, anyway. Reminds me, we need to translate [[:pl:Józef Wincenty Piłsudski]]... --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<font style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> talk </font>]]</sub> 04:55, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

== section: Descendants ==
Trivial and absolutely of no consequence to the subject. Józef Piłsudski had two daughters: Jadwiga and Wanda. No sons. This is not an article about Piłsudski family, but about J. P. himself. Both Wanda and Jadwiga had their children (in London, England). None of them are "Japanese". --[[User:Emanek|Emanek]] ([[User talk:Emanek|talk]]) 05:49, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
:I agree this stub-section is of little relevance. I support moving it to [[Piłsudski family]]. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<font style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> talk </font>]]</sub> 04:53, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

== Image for infobox ==
A while ago the infobox image [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Józef_Piłsudski&diff=396041775&oldid=395730474 was switched] from [[:File:Jozef Pilsudski1.jpg]] to [[:File:Pilsudski 1910 1920 LOC hec 14263 restored.jpg]]. While the new image has higher resolution, it is not needed for infobox purposes, and I find the old image "nicer". Polish Wikipedia uses [[:File:Jozef Pilsudski.jpg]], which is also nice. Comments appreciated, --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<font style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> talk </font>]]</sub> 04:49, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
:As nobody seems to care much, I am going to restore the old image. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<font style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> talk to me</font>]]</sub> 21:27, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

== Sources on Pilsudski dictatorship: Britannica Concise Encyclopedia, The Oxford Companion to Military History, Gale Encyclopedia of Biography, Columbia Encyclopedia and Time Magazine ==

Pilsudski's rule has been identified as dictatorship with many fascist features by many reliable academic sources and encyclopedias, published both during the Pilsudski dictatorship and later. Pilsudski dictatorship has been discussed on this Talk page earlier. Despite this facts, one of the editors of this page rejected the recently added sourced information as follows: "those aren't reliable sources (answers.com?), sources are being misrepresented and there's no discussion on talk (unless you're referring to some different account)".

To help with the discussion of this issue, here are the quotes from Britannica Concise Encyclopedia, The Oxford Companion to Military History, Gale Encyclopedia of Biography, Columbia Encyclopedia and Time Magazine (October 3, 1927). The first four sources are quoted, for instance at http://www.answers.com/topic/j-zef-pilsudski .

{{quote| He served as Poland's first head of state until the constitution was established in 1922. After staging a coup in 1926, he served as premier (1926-28) and minister of defense (1926-35) under handpicked premiers, enabling him to rule as the dictator of Poland. "Jozef Pilsudski." Britannica Concise Encyclopedia. Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc., 1994-2010}}

{{quote| A militarist and extreme nationalist, he was again dictator in 1926-8 and from 1930 until his death. Although it was all too obvious what a resurgent Nazi Germany and Soviet Union meant for Poland, instead of seeking an alliance with similarly threatened Czechoslovakia, his foreign minister and eventual successor Józef Beck pursued irredentist claims. "Jozef Pilsudski." The Oxford Companion to Military History. Oxford University Press, 2001, 2004}}

{{quote| From late 1926 to 1928, and again in 1930, Pilsudski served as Polish prime minister, ruling dictatorially and arresting members of the Sejm who opposed his rule. He was the real ruler of Poland, choosing the holders of important offices. "Jozef Pilsudski." Gale Encyclopedia of Biography. © 2006 by The Gale Group, Inc}}

{{quote| There have been recent signs of the Polish Sejm (Parliament) attempting to oust Dictator Josef Pilsudski. The Polish political situation is somewhat unusual. The President (pedagogic Professor Ignatz Moscicki) is the impotent puppet of Josef Pilsudski, Premier, Minister of War & Marshal of Poland, who is actually the law. Although he appears in the Sejm on important occasions (such as political crises, when he dons his much-worn military uniform to terrify his opponents), he leaves much governmental business to another puppet: Vice Premier & Minister of Religion & Education, Professor Kazimierz Bartel.... http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,731016,00.html#ixzz2D20Y4Dan. Time Magazine, Monday, Oct. 03, 1927. Retrieved on 2010-11-22.}}

See also the following comprehensive contemporary treatise on the subject: Clifford Eugene Garwick, The Pilsudski Dictatorship in Poland, Ohio State University, 1929, 560 pages.

The references to these and other sources are presently restored in the article on Dictator Pilsudski, in the section titled Dictatorship. The editors are requested to review the article on Pilsudski to make sure that POV reverts by Polish nationalists, revisionists and anti-Semites do not happen again. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/76.102.172.86|76.102.172.86]] ([[User talk:76.102.172.86|talk]]) 23:49, 23 November 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:These aren't reliable sources. This is Answers.com where someone (you?) put in a bunch of nonsense and claimed it was supported by reliable sources. It's not. The fact that they can't even spell the name right (and not just the diacritics) is a dead give away that it's junk. Compare the actual Britannica article [http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/460674/Jozef-Pilsudski] with the supposed Britannica-based article at answers.com. They're completely different. The real Britannica article is essentially very similar to the present Wikipedia article. The other one is just wacky.
:One page had to already be protected because of your relentless POV pushing. I guess this one - a featured article no less - will need it too.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<font style="color:blue;background:orange;font-family:sans-serif;">'''&nbsp;Volunteer Marek&nbsp;'''</font>]]</span></small> 01:41, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

:: Answers.com indeed quotes these encyclopedias. This however does not make these published encyclopedias unreliable sources. Please consider the following:
::: (1) Britannica Concise Encyclopedia is a respected and widely used reliable source, see for instance its stellar reviews at Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Britannica-Concise-Encyclopedia-Editors/dp/0852298323/;
::: (2) The assessment of Pilsudski as a dictator from Britannica Concise Encyclopedia is genuine and not inserted into answers.com by somebody sinister. E.g., this assessment is quoted, word-in-word, by such sources as Merriam-Webster Encyclopedia ( http://www.merriam-webster.com/concise/pilsudski,%20j%C3%B3zef%20(klemens) ) and many other sources (see e.g., http://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=%22under+handpicked+premiers%2C+enabling+him+to+rule+as+the+dictator+of+Poland%22 )
::: (3) Both Britannica Concise Encyclopedia and Columbia Encyclopedia (the latter mentioning obvious fascist features of Pilsudski dictatorship) have already been used as sources in the Wikipedia article on Pilsudski, before the above references on Pilsudski dictatorship have been added
:: Besides, even if one questions reliability of 1 source, one should not remove all references and the whole section on Pilsudski dictatorship. The current sources quoted to support calling his rule a dictatorship include 5 encyclopedias, 1 academic publication (a book) and 3 contemporary newspaper/journal articles. All these references are to reliable sources, and they all clearly identify Pilsudski as a dictator and his rule as dictatorship. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/76.102.172.86|76.102.172.86]] ([[User talk:76.102.172.86|talk]]) 08:36, 24 November 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Richard M. Watt, ''Bitter Glory: Poland and Its Fate, 1918-1939'', New York, Simon and Schuster, 1979, {{ISBN|0-671-22625-8}}:

"Although the Piłsudski regime had certainly become authoritarian, its counteropposition activities could not be compared to those of many other European governments during this [1930s] decade of emerging fascism....

"In fact, Piłsudski regarded fascism as a menace and some of his government's most immoderate attacks were directed against it. These antifascist moves came to a head in 1934, when the government dissolved several crypto-fascist parties that had arisen out of the right-wing National Democratic Party. One of these groups, the National Radical Camp (ONR), patterned itself closely after the German Nazis, complete with anti-Semitic extremism." (P. 302.)

"Interwar Poland was not a totalitarian state, nor were its leaders avowedly antidemocratic. At no time did Piłsudski or any of his successors refer to their regimes as 'dictatorships.'

"Interwar Poland was as democratic as any of the 'successor states,' and much more than most. In a period when many much larger European nations, like Italy, Germany and Spain, all became authentically fascist, it is incorrect to imply that the Polish political system even modestly resembled theirs.

"If the world's view of interwar Poland was frequently less than sympathetic, much of this disapproval was the result of Piłsudski's... disdain for... public relations." (Pp. 461-62.)

[[User:Nihil novi|Nihil novi]] ([[User talk:Nihil novi|talk]]) 09:32, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Nihil novi: it would be appreciated, if you could explain the relevance of these quotes to Pilsudski dictatorship being discussed here. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/76.102.172.86|76.102.172.86]] ([[User talk:76.102.172.86|talk]]) 09:37, 24 November 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:The relevance is that you're misusing sources and engaging in what is a textbook example of POV pushing. Putting aside whether answers.com represents the other sources adequately, we have a lot of sources which contradict the text you're edit warring to insert. We also don't generally use tertiary sources (encyclopedias or dictionaries) or primary sources (time article... from 1929!), particularly for controversial topics. Finally this is a Featured Article, it has undergone extensive vetting, and any substantial changes to it need to acquire consensus on the talk page first. The fact that you've been reverted by three different users should be a big hint that such a consensus has not been acquired.
:Of relevance is also the fact that your actions on another article, Stefan Banach, led to that article having to be protected so you couldn't edit it. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<font style="color:blue;background:orange;font-family:sans-serif;">'''&nbsp;Volunteer Marek&nbsp;'''</font>]]</span></small> 13:24, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

:: Marek: your comments do not explain a relevance of the quotes supplied by Nihil novi to Pilsudski dictatorship being discussed here. The quotes do not say whether Pilsudski was a dictator, or not. I hope, Nihil novi and you are not bringing up the unsophisticated variation of the old ridiculous argument characteristic of Polish discourse: "Pilsudski was not as bad as other dictators/fascists/anti-Semites, and he even confronted some other dictators/fascists/anti-Semites occasionally, therefore he is not a dictator/fascist/anti-Semite and should not be called a dictator/fascist/anti-Semite".

:: Marek: to address the matters in your latest comment above (secondary, primary and tertiary sources), Pilsudski is called a dictator by a variety of reliable and verifiable secondary sources, including published scholarly monographs (see below). Along with such sources, he is called a dictator by a variety of other reliable sources - encyclopedia (Britannica Concise Encyclopedia, The Oxford Companion to Military History, Gale Encyclopedia of Biography, Columbia Encyclopedia and many others), textbooks and reputable news organizations (Time Magazine, Life Magazine, Canberra Times and many others). Here is a small subset of relevant quotes from reliable and verifiable secondary scholarly sources. Ironically, the last reference includes a quote from a speech by Pilsudski himself, where the hero of the Polish nation acknowledges his urge to become a dictator, dating back to 1918. Happy reading.

:::Paul Dowswell, '' Dictatorship (Systems of Government) '' , Gareth Stevens Publishing (July 2005), ISBN-10: 0836858840, ISBN-13: 978-0836858846, p. 14, "General Josef Clemens Pilsudski, first president of Poland, and one of Europe's first dictators...Europe, too, had its authoritarian dictators before the rise of the totalitarians. Among them was Josef Pilsudski of Poland." http://books.google.com/books?id=nwM3fHM2XiwC&pg=PA14

:::Stephen J.Lee, '' European Dictatorships 1918-1945'', Routledge; 3 edition (May 13, 2008), ISBN-10: 0415454840, ISBN-13: 978-0415454841, p. 315, "Authoritarian dictatorship is normally associated with Pilsudski [...] no one doubted that ultimate power lay in his hands: 'I am a strong man and I like to decide all matters by myself'[96]. To emphasize this point, he reduced the power of the legislature, arguing that 'The Chicanes of Parliament retard indispensable solutions.' He saw Western-style party political manoeuvres as highly destructive in Poland, since they produced a parliament which was in reality a 'House of Prostitutes'. " http://books.google.com/books?id=gLXkGLDxSkAC&pg=PA315

:::Jacques Delarue and Mervyn Savill, '' The Gestapo: A History of Horror '', Skyhorse Publishing (May 17, 2008), ISBN-10: 1602392463, ISBN-13: 978-1602392465, p.172, "From 1926 to 1936 Poland, previously led by a democratic government, had lived under the dictatorship of Marshal Pilsudski, who before his death had signed a non-aggression pact with Hitler Germany." http://books.google.com/books?id=UNZ4-s5a_IAC&pg=PA172

:::Jackson J. Spielvogel, '' Cengage Advantage Books: Western Civilization, Complete '', Wadsworth Publishing; 8 edition (January 1, 2011), ISBN-10: 0495913278, ISBN-13: 978-0495913276, p.948, "Already in the 1920s, some eastern European states began to move away from political democracy toward authoritarian structures. [...] Poland established an authoritaian regime in 1926 when Marshal Joseph Pilsudski (peel-SOOT-skee) (1867-1935) created a military dictatorship." http://books.google.com/books?id=9lOrrFgCZIgC&pg=PA948

:::M. B. B. Biskupski, '' Independence Day: Myth, Symbol, and the Creation of Modern Poland'', Oxford University Press, USA (December 12, 2012), ISBN-10: 0199658811, ISBN-13: 978-0199658817, p.30, "In 1923 Pilsudski, with his characteristic feigned nonchalance, commented on his own role in these events: 'In November 1918 something happened not the least historical, just a typical event... a man walked from the Vienna station who, it turns out, was named Josef Pilsudski. In the course of the next several days, without any efforts on the part of this man, without any pressure, plotting [podkopy] or any kind of permission, something most untypical occurred. This man became a dictator.[58]' " http://books.google.com/books?id=HsvoAiBX7JwC&pg=PA30 <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/76.102.172.86|76.102.172.86]] ([[User talk:76.102.172.86|talk]]) 23:39, 24 November 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:: Marek: to address your "vetting" argument. Looking into the editing history of this article, Pilsudski article always called him a dictator, beginning as early as 2005. The current structure of the article (with a section titled "Dictatorship") has been finalized sometime in 2008. This current structure existed until February 10, 2012, when it has been edited to remove all mentions of dictatorship with a justification stating "calling Pilsudski a "dictator" is controversial and not supported by a majority of historians" (see http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=J%C3%B3zef_Pi%C5%82sudski&oldid=476093221 ). Characteristically of Polish scholars and enthusiasts, known internationally for their sharp wit and intelligence, the editor neglected to provide a single source reference from "a majority of historians". Despite admitting a controversial nature of the subject matter, the same editor deemed it unnecessary to initiate any discussions of these extensive edits on the Talk page of the article. The purpose of the current edits and this on-going discussion is to provide references from verifiable and reliable sources supporting the established consensus on the subject matter of this article. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/76.102.172.86|76.102.172.86]] ([[User talk:76.102.172.86|talk]]) 00:34, 25 November 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:::''Characteristically of Polish scholars and enthusiasts, known internationally for their sharp wit and intelligence, the editor neglected''' - cut it out with the bigotry. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<font style="color:blue;background:orange;font-family:sans-serif;">'''&nbsp;Volunteer Marek&nbsp;'''</font>]]</span></small> 03:34, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

: Nihil novi: The quotes picked by you do not allow to conclude whether Pilsudski's rule is a dictatorship or not. The only quote that mentions dictatorship states that Pilsudski and his entourage did not view their rule as a dictatorship. I tell you what, Stalin and his henchmen did not call themselves dictators either. They were "friends of the people", or something. Mussolini called himself a Duce and Hitler called himself a Fuhrer, not dictators by any means.

: Nihil novi: Nevertheless, thank you for bringing up the book by Richard Watt to our attention. It contains the following quote, that I am adding (properly acknowledging your contribution, of course) to the list of references on Pilsudski dictatorship in the main article:

:: Richard M. Watt, ''Bitter Glory: Poland and Its Fate, 1918-1939'', New York, Simon and Schuster, 1979, {{ISBN|0-671-22625-8}}, p.91, "As 'Chief of State,' once the title of the revered Tadeusz Kosciuszko, Pilsudski was Poland's dictator." http://books.google.com/books?ei=SGyxUPifHMi1iwKb-oHoAQ&id=wYlGAQAAIAAJ&dq=%22Bitter+Glory%3A+Poland+and+Its+Fate%22&q=%22was+Poland%27s+dictator%22#search_anchor <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/76.102.172.86|76.102.172.86]] ([[User talk:76.102.172.86|talk]]) 01:16, 25 November 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Without going into anon's agenda, I do think that plenty of sources identify Piłsudski as a dictator, and such claim is not very controversial. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<font style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</font>]]</sub> 03:46, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
::Sure, I put that in there. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<font style="color:blue;background:orange;font-family:sans-serif;">'''&nbsp;Volunteer Marek&nbsp;'''</font>]]</span></small> 03:56, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Marek: in relation to your latest edit ( http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=J%C3%B3zef_Pi%C5%82sudski&diff=524743443&oldid=524734321 ) can you please clarify the following:

: 1. You wrote, justifying your edits: "rvt POV pushing against consensus". Please indicate where this consensus has been reached on this Talk page. Please note, as it was explained to you above, that Pilsudski has been properly labeled a dictator in this article for nearly 7 years and the Dictatorship section existed in this article for nearly 4 years, before being reverted sometime in February 2012 without any Talk discussions and without providing any source references

: 2. You wrote, justifying your edits: " ridiculous cite stacking (some of which misrepresent sources)". Are all quoted sources misrepresented, in your opinion? Please provide specific examples of source misrepresentations.

: 3. You wrote, justifying your edits: "Add mention of sources referring to "dictatorship" (edited with ProveIt))". Can you please explain what did you want to say? Do you want others to add more sources? If yes, why do you delete them? Did you mean to say that you added more sources? It does not look that way.

Marek: in the mean time, please stop reverting the sourced and referenced information. As you can see from the recent history of edits of this page, at least two more editors disagree with your removal of sourced information. Also, at least 3 other editors are telling you that Pilsudski is a dictator, on this Talk page. Let's try to arrive to a consensus. Otherwise, instead of these ridiculous reverts, try doing something that you guys are good at. I mean legal and harmless things, not stealing other peoples' cars or drinking potato vodka by buckets! For instance, those alternatives for you may include fixing some leaking faucets, installing few toilet bowls here and there or introducing us to a hot bloodied Agnieszka or two :)

== Tribute in the German Reichstag ==
The death of Pilsudski was commerated in the Reichstag 1935. As this is actually interesting, it should be included in the article. http://archive.org/details/AdolfHitlerWiedereinfuehrungDerWehrpflicht1935-05-21 --[[Special:Contributions/41.151.18.167|41.151.18.167]] ([[User talk:41.151.18.167|talk]]) 11:30, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

:Was this in some way exceptional or was it standard procedure for when heads of state died? I don't particularly see it as noteworthy. Countries usually commemorate the passing of each other's leaders as long as they are not actively at war with one another. This seems like another attempt at POV pushing.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<font style="color:blue;background:orange;font-family:sans-serif;">'''&nbsp;Volunteer Marek&nbsp;'''</font>]]</span></small> 15:54, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

::If true -not noteworthy ? Four years later Germany started WWII by invading Poland. Have Volunteer Marek no hitorical knowledge at all ? I've never heared about it though. [[Special:Contributions/83.249.173.211|83.249.173.211]] ([[User talk:83.249.173.211|talk]]) 06:42, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

== International sources about Józef Piłsudski ==
First let me point out that the Polish history between the late 1700's and 1991 is full of sad events, that has affected the Polish people. But the Polish history writing at Wikipedia must still follow Wikipedia rules. Not only by sources. The article about Józef Piłsudski is only reguarded from certain aspects. All (or most) negative sides removed. All non-Polish sources states that even if Piłsudski consolidated the new reborn Polish state in 1919, and defended this towards the USSR he also captured Lithuanian land,including it's present Capital city, Vilnius. Further in 1926 he made a military coup, and became dictator of Poland. Poland was not (as fx Czeckoslovakia in the 1930's) a democratical state. (yet article makes attacks against Czeckoslovakia, and do not explain reasons ''why'' Czeckoslovakia didn't want to form an alliance with Poland) And after his death the military junta ruled Poland, the most well-known member of this junta was Józef Beck (previously the foregin secreatary). In early 1937 Poland declined Germany to build a motorway and a dual track railway through the corridor, so that East Preussia and the main part of Germany could be connected. By 1938 when Hitler invaded the Sudetenland (where all Czeckoslovakian defencelines towards Germany were placed) or possibly in spring of 1938 when Hitler invaded the entire Bohemia and Mähren (the Czeck part of Czeckoslovakia), Poland also "grabbed" a piece of Czeckoslovakia.
Not a large area, but still. The Polish regime 1926-1939 was no saint. (Even if Nazigermany was far worse, but that's beside the point). There is a clear tendance of only supporting certain points of views and disreguarding other, in both text and through the selected sources. Like what an (nameless) Italian ambassador might have told someone else (also nameless) about what he might have thought about the appearance of Piłsudski (without stating the circumstances or even in what year). This is an example of "hearsay by reference" and cannot be used in a serious historical article. United international world-wide sources supports that Piłsudski (and his military junta that succeeded him) was a dictator (and dictatorship junta). No general election was held in Poland 1926-39. The enitre article "tips" far too much in the opposite direction. Including several dubios and/or biosed sources. (not allbut far too many) There is an obvious lack of balance in the Józef Piłsudski article. (And rembember the Katyn massacre error that lasted 50 years) [[User:Boeing720|Boeing720]] ([[User talk:Boeing720|talk]]) 02:42, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

:This appears to be the same user who has been edit warring on the article for the past few months, as well as posting insulting and harassing comments to various users' talk pages. I could be wrong but the POV and specific issues emphasized are '''exactly''' the same. Junta, Italian ambassador, dictator (which is already mention in the article). So it's either sock puppeting or coordination.<span style="color:Blue">[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer ]]</span><span style="color:Orange">[[User talk:Volunteer Marek|Marek]]</span> 02:51, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

::Agreed, please report this to SPI. That said, I am open to a discussion if certain facts and terms. like "dictator", should not be added to the lead. I'll note that back in 2010 the lead had a sentence "and became the de facto dictator of Poland" ([http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=J%C3%B3zef_Pi%C5%82sudski&oldid=334686453]). Overall, I am supportive of adding a claim that he was a dictator to the lead, perhaps simply by restoring this sentence. I am having some 'net connection issues, so I am not going to trace who removed this claim and when - would be interesting to check. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<font style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</font>]]</sub> 03:42, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
:::I have no problem with that proposal.<span style="color:Blue">[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer ]]</span><span style="color:Orange">[[User talk:Volunteer Marek|Marek]]</span> 23:43, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

== Polish general elections / pretidential elections during 1926-1939 ? ==
If any general election (available to all Polish people to vote) to the parliament or any kind of presidential election took place in Poland between may 1926 and the German (and 17 days later USSR- ) invation, then please enlighten me about these eledged elections. [[User:Boeing720|Boeing720]] ([[User talk:Boeing720|talk]]) 15:40, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
By the way, my ato-login doesn't work after visits at other Wikipedias. My current IP is [[Special:Contributions/83.249.173.211|83.249.173.211]] ([[User talk:83.249.173.211|talk]]) 15:46, 10 March 2013 (UTC) but is not permanent, just putting all cards on the table. (And I do not concider Polish people as car-thiefs etc.)/Boeing720, Scania, occupied by Sweden since 1711.

:There were four general elections in Poland between the coup and WWII; 1928, 1930, 1935, and 1938. The primary effect of the coup was a change in the government and the de-legalization of far right parties (though, at least in the immediate aftermath, there was a general repression against Pilsudski's opponents).<span style="color:Blue">[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer ]]</span><span style="color:Orange">[[User talk:Volunteer Marek|Marek]]</span> 23:55, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
:Also a reshuffling of power from the legislative to the executive branch, per the [[August Novelization]], which should be mentioned in this article (and that article should be improved).<span style="color:Blue">[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer ]]</span><span style="color:Orange">[[User talk:Volunteer Marek|Marek]]</span> 00:29, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
:[[Polish legislative election, 1928]], [[Polish legislative election, 1930]], [[Polish legislative election, 1935]], [[Polish legislative election, 1938]] did happen. They were not fully free, but they were not a total sham like let's say communist elections later. The lead is not the best part to discuss how free were they, so it's better not to mention them. To say they did not happen is a clear falsehood. PS. From the 1928 article, referenced: "the 1928 election is generally considered the last free election in Poland until 1989". --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<font style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</font>]]</sub> 02:21, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

== the commemorative coin ==
'''The Polish mint issued a silver 10-złoty commemorative coin featuring the Marshal's profile'''.

I am in doubt about this information. First, the sentence makes an impression that one of the special things about the coin was that it was silver; but in fact, all regular Polish coins (2, 5, and 10 złoty) until 1939 were made of silver, so this was nothing special. Second, indeed, there are known 2, 5, 10 zł (silver) coins which carry Marshal's profile on them, but they were issued a year earlier, in 1934, to mark the 20th anniversary of the beginning of the "Legionary Deed" in 1914. Third, I do not remember such a commemorative coin issued in 1935. So, until this information is properly sourced, I would be inclined to think that someone saw the coins with Piłsudski's profile on them, and assumed that they were commemorative of his death, not realizing that they have been issued in 1934. [[Special:Contributions/159.205.56.119|159.205.56.119]] ([[User talk:159.205.56.119|talk]]) 19:15, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

== Recovered Vilnius ==
That's a new low, even by Polish cabal standards. "Newly born Lithuanian state", well was a [[Kingdom of Lithuania]] circa 1251 did never exist, and Poles did not ever stole the rightful [[Vytautas]] crown. Such an undescribable desire to scorch and torture facts, to be on top of things, that they do not have a slightest idea about, what they're talking about. Lithuanian state was reestablished in the same manner as Poland. No less. Just without dubious partners, who did try to recover something, that did not ever belong to them. First Poland's President was shot for being Samogitian, and they still insist "recovered". This recovery, as a matter of fact was an international crime.
Yup, Pilsudski, a Samogitian noble staged an international act of war, played his allies and "recovered". If it suits you, I would not care any more/ Have a good trip, just do not overdose. It is bad for your health and reputation.
I do love to see ignorance to be portrayed as a patriotism. [[User:Lokyz|Lokyz]] ([[User talk:Lokyz|talk]]) 21:19, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

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== The funeral train "touring Poland" ==

Ceremonies, masses and an enormous funeral were held; a funeral train toured Poland.

It did not "tour Poland". It just travelled - although slowly, to allow people gathering on the route to show respect - from Warsaw to Cracow by one direct route of about 300 km. Also, in the entire section, describing in detail what were the feelings of communists, socialists, national-democrats, ethnic minorities etc., it is clearly missing how the normal Polish citizens en masse reacted to that death: the crowds gathering to mourn were spontaneous, as Piłsudski was a very popular man being commonly highly esteemed for his legend of the one who revived the free Republic and successfully fought against Soviets to secure the liberty of the citizens.

::(to unsigned) I guess most of this is correct. But It was indeed Pilsudski who began the war on Russia or Soviet Russia. Not the other way around. The reason for Pilsudski's invasion of Ukraine isn't known to me. But the war began that way. Pilsudski perhaps wished to liberate Ukraine from the Bolsheviks, but a south-eastbound expansion of the new Poland, can't be ruled out and had historical roots. Not positive for the Ukranians. More important, the Ukraine people feared Poland far more than they feared Russia. Pilsudski managed to put an end to the Red Army "Marsh on Warsaw" through a splendid strategy. But before that, he had completely failed in Ukraine. [[User:Boeing720|Boeing720]] ([[User talk:Boeing720|talk]]) 23:34, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
:::The reason for Piłsudski (and Petlura's) "invasion of Ukraine" is widely known and rather obvious. We are just waiting for the Ukraine's politicians to understand, that there is no other way than the one which Piłsudski understood to be the only solution already 120 years ago. He tried to accomplish this project, and failed. He was one of the few who understood that Poland LOST the war of 1920, and it is easy to see why. When I read the comments such as the one above, I cannot help but admire how a wise and intelligent man he apparently was, and, on the other hand, how stupid and narrow-thinking most people are.

== Portrait of Józef Piłsudski ==

Greetings,

I have a portrait of Józef Piłsudski. It is from the estate of another famous Polish general. If you are interested in possibly using it for this article. Please email me and I will scan it. I have to take it out of the frame to scan it, so I will not do that unless you are mostly serious.

Sincerely, Joseph. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2605:A601:1128:5A00:C88E:B0C:213A:DDED|2605:A601:1128:5A00:C88E:B0C:213A:DDED]] ([[User talk:2605:A601:1128:5A00:C88E:B0C:213A:DDED#top|talk]]) 01:45, 23 April 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==References==
{{reflist-talk}}

== Ukraine 1920, Vilnius, after 1926 a fascistic state. Too positive tone for this status ==

According to Polish historic author [[Isaac Deutscher]] "Stalin - a political biography", Pilsudski was to blame for the war known as the [[Polish-Russian War]]. Pilsudski perhaps had good intentions even from an Ukranian point of view (but that is unclear), but his beliefs were at least a complete misjudgement of the Ukranian people. They didn't see Pilsudski or Poland as liberators, but as attackers. (The long Polish ruling and oppression vs Ukranians during the 16th and 17th century in memory, it was a stupid idea) There is also the [[Vilnius|Wilno]] -issue. After WW1, Poland's borders to Germany were (largely) regulated through referendums (where the people majority was unclear) but Poland's borders in the east wasn't regulated at all. Poland simply grabbed the Lithuanian capital. There also was some problem with Czechoslovakia, I believe. And the Polish state after 1926 became a ''fascist state''. Very friendly with Mussolini's Italy, [[Engelbert Dollfuss|Dollfuss]]' Austria and later Franco's Spain. The new Poland was certainly no democratic state after Pilsudski's coup in 1926. Think the tone is too positive for this status. [[User:Boeing720|Boeing720]] ([[User talk:Boeing720|talk]]) 03:12, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
:::::Deutscher was Trotskyist, not Polish. He was a member of the illegal Communist Party, so I understand his anti-Polish bias. Pilsudski was a democrat comparing to Polish Communists, who expelled Deutscher, Poles didn't. [[User:Xx236|Xx236]] ([[User talk:Xx236|talk]]) 09:11, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
:By calling Polish state "fascist" you have revealed your anti-polish bias. Another manipulation is "a problem with Czechoslovakia". Your credibility in the field of history is null. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/37.7.98.122|37.7.98.122]] ([[User talk:37.7.98.122#top|talk]]) 23:25, 28 October 2018 (UTC)</small>
:: A "fascist state”?? Common [[User:Boeing720|Boeing720]] :) much of luck obtaining reliable references to back up this statement.[[User:GizzyCatBella|GizzyCatBella]] ([[User talk:GizzyCatBella|talk]]) 23:49, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
:::{{ping|User:GizzyCatBella}} Given your input here, I must assume you put an equal sign between Nazism and fascism. This has two roots, first [[Communist International|Komintern]] and Stalin's USSR had learned that Italian Fascism largely was based on Anti-socialism. During the [[Spanish Civil War]] Komintern through the USSR fought Franco's fascists. In communist vocabulary "fascism" and after 1941 Nazigermany became one and the same. Also many American (and some British) soldiers and officers fought "Germany and Italy" and between December 1941 and September 1943, there was not much point in differentiate their European enemies politically. ''I do not put an equal sign between fascism and Nazism''. Neither does for instance [[Michael Burleigh]](Hardly considered "right" and a well respected historian), "The Racial State", p. 306-307 (ISBN 0521398029) :
:::''"The Third Reich was intended to be a racial rather than a class society. This fact in itself makes existing theories, whether based upon modernisation, totalitarianism, or global theories of Fascism, poor heuristic devices for a greater understanding of what was a singular regime without precedent or parallel."'' <br>
:::What I mean is - Poland became a <u>far right non-democracy</u> from Pilsudski's cuop in 1926. (the fascist label is less important). Poland had very good relations with [[Mussolini]]'s Italy, [[Engelbert Dollfuss|Dollfuss]]' Austria, [[Miguel Primo de Rivera|Primo de Rivera]]'s Spain until 1930/31 and other European countries with similar non-democratical regimes. (But Czechoslovakia was not a dictatorship, when Hitler was given Sudetenland and then more or less "allowed" to grab the rest of that country, [[Józef Beck]] let Poland grab a smaller piece of Czechoslovakia - see this map: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czechoslovakia#/media/File:Czechoslovakia_1939.SVG ).And are you questioning the [[Polish-Russian War]] or that Wilno (today [[Vilnius]] in Lithuania) was captured ? (100 years ago)<br>
:::'''We are talking HISTORY not TODAY !!! ''' <u>Would I be anti-Polish if I had written that Poland was communistic 1945-1989 ?????</u> <br>
:::'''I'm most certainly not anti-Polish. Nor biased.''' Besides, I live in a building with 6 flats, two of them has Polish tenants and I have a Polish (female) dentist. I have had plenty of Polish-related school mates and lots of other Polish acquaintances. The last time I was in Poland was in September this year. '''Why pull the trigger like that ?''' [[User:Boeing720|Boeing720]] ([[User talk:Boeing720|talk]]) 03:12, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
::::::Your opinions about pre-war Poland are biased. Perhaps your sources are biased? Wilno was a Polish-Jewish city at that time, the number of Lithuanians low, please verify your data. Czechoslovakia grabbed Zaolzie when Poland was weak. Czechoslovakia was a democracy for Czech people, Slovaks weren't happy and Germans were discriminated. [[User:Xx236|Xx236]] ([[User talk:Xx236|talk]]) 09:22, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
:::: [[User:Boeing720|Boeing720]], Please read a little further about the [[Sanacja]] government in prewar Poland, you may reach different judgments.[[User:GizzyCatBella|GizzyCatBella]] ([[User talk:GizzyCatBella|talk]]) 03:46, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
:::::Quote from that article lead " advocated authoritarian rule, rested on a circle of Piłsudski's close associates," - that's not democracy ! Although Piłsudski wasn't President of the republic, a small group ruled without free elections. And to the far right. Resembling Mussolini, Prima de Rivera, Franco, Dollfuss and others (but not Hitler, and not Stalin either). And even if I didn't remember exactly what trouble that happened between Poland and Czechoslovakia, there was a conflict. Why so personal ? '''Anti-Polish and bias ???''' If I wrote something negative on [[Woodrow Wilson]], [[Herbert Hoover]] or [[Franklin Delano Roosevelt]], would I then be Anti-American ? If I wrote something negative on [[Winston Churchill]] or [[Neville Chamberlain]] or [[Benjamin Disraeli]] would I then be Anti-British ? Etc. I've seen you have caused some trouble before, subjects you have been unauthorized to contribute to. Please stop <u>getting personal</u> and discuss matters in civil manners. [[User:Boeing720|Boeing720]] ([[User talk:Boeing720|talk]]) 08:47, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
:::::: @[[User:Boeing720|Boeing720]], How do you know the IP who composed this comment [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Józef_Piłsudski&diff=866205251&oldid=866204997&diffmode=source] “caused some trouble before”? He just made two edits all together [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/37.7.98.122] [[User:GizzyCatBella|GizzyCatBella]] ([[User talk:GizzyCatBella|talk]]) 13:22, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
:::::::'''From your own talk-page''': <br>
:::::::Headline: Edit war
:::::::Other contributer to you: ''"Please what is happening in the article History of the Jews in Poland and the Lwow pogrom (1918). There is an concerted attack going on."'' removed user 12:58, 30 June 2018 (UTC)<br>
:::::::Your own reply - ''"I’m sorry, I can’t comment on the issue, I’m currently topic banned from all Poland/WW2 related articles. GizzyCatBella (talk) 15:53, 30 June 2018 (UTC)'' <br>
:::::::And I would argue , to be banned from a specific topic, is not normal at English Wikipedia. Neither was your accusation of me as anti -Polish and biased ! Learn ! [[User:Boeing720|Boeing720]] ([[User talk:Boeing720|talk]]) 15:46, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
:::::::: @[[User:Boeing720|Boeing720]] confusing an unsigned IP comment [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Józef_Piłsudski&diff=866205251&oldid=866204997&diffmode=source] with this one [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Józef_Piłsudski&diff=next&oldid=866205251&diffmode=source]. Correct?. Are you aware of that? [[User:GizzyCatBella|GizzyCatBella]] ([[User talk:GizzyCatBella|talk]]) 17:38, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
::::::::: My comments after you arrived here, relates to '''both''' comments - naturally. And why the [[Sanacja]] government issue first ? Nothing on any IP-user then !? Learn from this, so you won't be banned from further topics too. End. [[User:Boeing720|Boeing720]] ([[User talk:Boeing720|talk]]) 02:39, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::: Then what is this all about?? [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:John&diff=866659016&oldid=866172849&diffmode=source]. So you didn't make a mistake and you were well aware of an unsigned IP remark all this time?? [[User:GizzyCatBella|GizzyCatBella]] ([[User talk:GizzyCatBella|talk]]) 06:10, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::: On the IP-mystery, there is no IP visible at this talk-page. The history file reveals however: <br>
::::::::::: 1. I wrote my comments to this '''featured''' article at 4.October. <br>
::::::::::: 2. No edits were then made at this talk-page from that date until 29.October. <br>
::::::::::: 3. Then, within ''less than 25 minutes'', 25 days later, you say two ''different'' replies were made. <br>
::::::::::: 4. After my ping and reply to you, your very first comment didn't include anything on this "Mystery IP man".<br>
::::::::::: 5. I'm just pointing out facts here. Period.
::::::::::: [[User:Boeing720|Boeing720]] ([[User talk:Boeing720|talk]]) 22:58, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::::::The original comment of an IP [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Józef_Piłsudski&diff=866205251&oldid=866204997&diffmode=source] is signed now [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Józef_Piłsudski&diff=866847502&oldid=866847439&diffmode=source] thanks to the courtesy of [[User:DIYeditor|—DIYeditor]]. If you could please cease accusations and perhaps do, what I have requested on your talk page [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Boeing720&diff=prev&oldid=866845662&diffmode=source] that would be great. Thanks [[User:GizzyCatBella|GizzyCatBella]] ([[User talk:GizzyCatBella|talk]]) 23:35, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::::::??? (There's nothing more to be said unless you're prepared to discuss article improvements) [[User:Boeing720|Boeing720]] ([[User talk:Boeing720|talk]]) 00:04, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
:Fascism means modernization and Piłsudski was conservative. Fascism was totalitarian, the Polish dictatorship was limited. Perhaps a totalitarian state would have been stronger in 1939.[[User:Xx236|Xx236]] ([[User talk:Xx236|talk]]) 09:24, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
:[[Miguel Primo de Rivera]] was a military dictator, he wasn't fascist. His son was fascist.[[User:Xx236|Xx236]] ([[User talk:Xx236|talk]]) 09:28, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
:The Third Reich was "racial-social", rich Germans were taxed, poor Germans cared. [[User:Xx236|Xx236]] ([[User talk:Xx236|talk]]) 09:33, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

== Foreign Policy
== Foreign Policy ==
== Foreign Policy ==
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**[[Józef_Piłsudski#Sources]] lists some sources that are not actually cited in the article.
**[[Józef_Piłsudski#Sources]] lists some sources that are not actually cited in the article.
*The "Legacy" section is a mix of things that are actually important and indiscriminate lists of relatively unimportant things named after him. This would benefit from being spun off into a separate article, along with the long (and poorly sourced) list of honors
*The "Legacy" section is a mix of things that are actually important and indiscriminate lists of relatively unimportant things named after him. This would benefit from being spun off into a separate article, along with the long (and poorly sourced) list of honors
I also see above that multiple editors have expressed concerns that the article downplays the authoritarian characteristics of his regime. Non-Polish sources describe his regime as a dictatorship, considering this one of the most prominent aspects of his life (notice it is mentioned in the short, one-paragraph summary in ''Encyclopedia of War'').<ref>{{cite book |last1=Smith |first1=Helmut Walser |title=The Oxford Handbook of Modern German History |date=2011 |publisher=OUP Oxford |isbn=978-0-19-923739-5 |page=436 |url=https://books.google.com/books?hl=es&lr=&id=IPngdGug27kC&oi=fnd&pg=PA423&dq=jozef+pilsudski+dictator&ots=_ZznfSz5F8&sig=jfWiNPUDmH8XF7Lh8LDNPaSL_3k#v=onepage&q=jozef%20pilsudski%20&f=false |language=en}}</ref><ref>{{cite journal |last1=Kopstein |first1=Jeffrey S. |last2=Wittenberg |first2=Jason |title=Beyond Dictatorship and Democracy: Rethinking National Minority Inclusion and Regime Type in Interwar Eastern Europe |journal=Comparative Political Studies |date=2010 |volume=43 |issue=8-9 |pages=1089–1118 |doi=10.1177/0010414010370437}}</ref><ref>{{cite journal |last1=Schwonek |first1=Matthew R. |title=Piłsudski, Józef Klemens (1867-1935) |journal=The Encyclopedia of War |date=2011 |doi=10.1002/9781444338232.wbeow492}}</ref> In addition, ''The Polish Review'' did an issue dedicated to him in 2011[https://www.jstor.org/stable/i40074791] and there was an interesting article on the subject, published just this year.<ref>{{cite journal |last1=von Weikersthal |first1=Felicitas Fischer |title=From Terrorists to Statesmen: Terrorism and Polish Independence |journal=Studies in Conflict & Terrorism |date=2020 |volume=43 |issue=1 |pages=5–23 |doi=10.1080/1057610X.2018.1471967}}</ref> ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] &#183; [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 06:30, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
I also see above that multiple editors have expressed concerns that the article downplays the authoritarian characteristics of his regime. Non-Polish sources describe his regime as a dictatorship, considering this one of the most prominent aspects of his life (notice it is mentioned in the short, one-paragraph summary in ''Encyclopedia of War'').<ref>{{cite book |last1=Smith |first1=Helmut Walser |title=The Oxford Handbook of Modern German History |date=2011 |publisher=OUP Oxford |isbn=978-0-19-923739-5 |page=436 |url=https://books.google.com/books?hl=es&lr=&id=IPngdGug27kC&oi=fnd&pg=PA423&dq=jozef+pilsudski+dictator&ots=_ZznfSz5F8&sig=jfWiNPUDmH8XF7Lh8LDNPaSL_3k#v=onepage&q=jozef%20pilsudski%20&f=false |language=en}}</ref><ref>{{cite journal |last1=Kopstein |first1=Jeffrey S. |last2=Wittenberg |first2=Jason |title=Beyond Dictatorship and Democracy: Rethinking National Minority Inclusion and Regime Type in Interwar Eastern Europe |journal=Comparative Political Studies |date=2010 |volume=43 |issue=8-9 |pages=1089–1118 |doi=10.1177/0010414010370437}}</ref><ref>{{cite journal |last1=Schwonek |first1=Matthew R. |title=Piłsudski, Józef Klemens (1867-1935) |journal=The Encyclopedia of War |date=2011 |doi=10.1002/9781444338232.wbeow492}}</ref> In addition, ''The Polish Review'' did an issue dedicated to him in 2011[https://www.jstor.org/stable/i40074791] and there was an interesting article on the subject, published just this year.<ref>{{cite journal |last1=von Weikersthal |first1=Felicitas Fischer |title=From Terrorists to Statesmen: Terrorism and Polish Independence |journal=Studies in Conflict & Terrorism |date=2020 |volume=43 |issue=1 |pages=5–23 |doi=10.1080/1057610X.2018.1471967}}</ref> ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 06:30, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
{{talk ref}}
{{talk ref}}
:I added missing references. I don't think anyone in Poland would disagree that his regime was a dictatorship. Which sections above specifically do you think contain constructive criticism that has not been addressed? --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 09:54, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
:I added missing references. I don't think anyone in Poland would disagree that his regime was a dictatorship. Which sections above specifically do you think contain constructive criticism that has not been addressed? --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 09:54, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
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::: Soft dictatorship - <ref>{{Cite book|last=Zajda|first=Joseph|url=https://books.google.ca/books?id=fdvJDQAAQBAJ&pg=PA116&dq=Soft+dictatorship+Pilsudski&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwis-sub0ITsAhVTpZ4KHdY3CpwQ6AEwAXoECAUQAg#v=onepage&q=Soft%20dictatorship%20Pilsudski&f=false|title=Globalisation and Historiography of National Leaders: Symbolic Representations in School Textbooks|last2=Tsyrlina-Spady|first2=Tatyana|last3=Lovorn|first3=Michael|date=2016-12-23|publisher=Springer|isbn=978-94-024-0975-8|language=en}}</ref> <ref>{{Cite book|last=Ramet|first=Sabrina P.|url=https://books.google.ca/books?id=GghxFpyBH7MC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Whose+Democracy?:+Nationalism,+Religion,+and+the+Doctrine+of+Collective&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjS--y70ITsAhXYqZ4KHZc7DboQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=soft%20dictatorship&f=false|title=Whose Democracy?: Nationalism, Religion, and the Doctrine of Collective Rights in Post-1989 Eastern Europe|last2=Ramet|first2=Sabrina|date=1997|publisher=Rowman & Littlefield|isbn=978-0-8476-8324-6|language=en}}</ref> - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 15:35, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
::: Soft dictatorship - <ref>{{Cite book|last=Zajda|first=Joseph|url=https://books.google.ca/books?id=fdvJDQAAQBAJ&pg=PA116&dq=Soft+dictatorship+Pilsudski&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwis-sub0ITsAhVTpZ4KHdY3CpwQ6AEwAXoECAUQAg#v=onepage&q=Soft%20dictatorship%20Pilsudski&f=false|title=Globalisation and Historiography of National Leaders: Symbolic Representations in School Textbooks|last2=Tsyrlina-Spady|first2=Tatyana|last3=Lovorn|first3=Michael|date=2016-12-23|publisher=Springer|isbn=978-94-024-0975-8|language=en}}</ref> <ref>{{Cite book|last=Ramet|first=Sabrina P.|url=https://books.google.ca/books?id=GghxFpyBH7MC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Whose+Democracy?:+Nationalism,+Religion,+and+the+Doctrine+of+Collective&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjS--y70ITsAhXYqZ4KHZc7DboQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=soft%20dictatorship&f=false|title=Whose Democracy?: Nationalism, Religion, and the Doctrine of Collective Rights in Post-1989 Eastern Europe|last2=Ramet|first2=Sabrina|date=1997|publisher=Rowman & Littlefield|isbn=978-0-8476-8324-6|language=en}}</ref> - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 15:35, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
{{talk ref}}
{{talk ref}}
*{{xt|Mainstream organizations of ethnic minorities similarly expressed their support for his policies of ethnic tolerance, though he was criticized by, in addition to the Polish communists, the Jewish Labour Bund, and Ukrainian, German and Lithuanian extremists.}} So, according to Wikipedia, ethnic minority groups who support Pilsudski are "mainstream", while those who oppose him are "extremists"? Surely there is a more NPOV to phrase this. ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] &#183; [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 04:18, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
*{{xt|Mainstream organizations of ethnic minorities similarly expressed their support for his policies of ethnic tolerance, though he was criticized by, in addition to the Polish communists, the Jewish Labour Bund, and Ukrainian, German and Lithuanian extremists.}} So, according to Wikipedia, ethnic minority groups who support Pilsudski are "mainstream", while those who oppose him are "extremists"? Surely there is a more NPOV to phrase this. ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 04:18, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
{{outdent}}
{{outdent}}
Hi {{u|buidhe}}, {{u|GizzyCatBella}} and {{u|Piotrus}}, I anm pinging you because you commented on the above FAR notice. There are still outstanding issues for this article including citation needed tags, the honours section that has an "additional citations needed" banner, a long legacy section with many short paragraphs, and inconsistent formatting in the references section. Are any of you interested in bringing this article back to [[WP:FA?|FA standards]], or should this be brought to FAR? [[User:Z1720|Z1720]] ([[User talk:Z1720|talk]]) 19:18, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
Hi {{u|buidhe}}, {{u|GizzyCatBella}} and {{u|Piotrus}}, I anm pinging you because you commented on the above FAR notice. There are still outstanding issues for this article including citation needed tags, the honours section that has an "additional citations needed" banner, a long legacy section with many short paragraphs, and inconsistent formatting in the references section. Are any of you interested in bringing this article back to [[WP:FA?|FA standards]], or should this be brought to FAR? [[User:Z1720|Z1720]] ([[User talk:Z1720|talk]]) 19:18, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
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::{{re|Piotrus}} Is the sfn template the preferred style for this article? I can fix the citations on my next readthrough. [[User:Z1720|Z1720]] ([[User talk:Z1720|talk]]) 15:12, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
::{{re|Piotrus}} Is the sfn template the preferred style for this article? I can fix the citations on my next readthrough. [[User:Z1720|Z1720]] ([[User talk:Z1720|talk]]) 15:12, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
:::{{rto|Z1720}} Sigh, it seems nowiki parameter or someone's lack of using it for a ref parameter earlier(?) broke the reply gadget. I meant to say thank you, it would be appreciated, but I dislike sfn as it doesn't work with VE. Instead I use the classic <nowiki><ref name-book1>cite template</ref></nowiki> code, with the minor twist that I use {{tl|rp}} for page numbers now. This way we don't get multiple footnotes for the same book - we get one footnote ex. [1] for all the times a given book is used, but the page numbers are in the body, not the footnotes. I am open to hearing what you prefer, but for me, the make it or break it deal is that a cite format should play nicely with the VE. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 12:04, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
:::{{rto|Z1720}} Sigh, it seems nowiki parameter or someone's lack of using it for a ref parameter earlier(?) broke the reply gadget. I meant to say thank you, it would be appreciated, but I dislike sfn as it doesn't work with VE. Instead I use the classic <nowiki><ref name-book1>cite template</ref></nowiki> code, with the minor twist that I use {{tl|rp}} for page numbers now. This way we don't get multiple footnotes for the same book - we get one footnote ex. [1] for all the times a given book is used, but the page numbers are in the body, not the footnotes. I am open to hearing what you prefer, but for me, the make it or break it deal is that a cite format should play nicely with the VE. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 12:04, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
::::{{re|Piotrus}} I am happy to do this conversion, but I'm a little confused about the preferred formatting. Can you provide an example of the full coding, as it would look in the markup? (Maybe by using a reference from this article?) Thanks, [[User:Z1720|Z1720]] ([[User talk:Z1720|talk]]) 01:54, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
:::::@[[User:Z1720|Z1720]] For my current preferred formatting, see my recent GAs [[Space travel in science fiction]] (note: it has a very big footnote sections due to consensus on talk to split examples from text for readability), [[Earth in science fiction]] (ditto), or [[Hyperspace]]. I prefer to quote specific pages, but use the rp template instead of (as I did in the past) to have a 'full reference with a page' in the footnote. I find this system pretty good both for the editor and the reader, and VE friendly. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 10:13, 4 December 2021 (UTC)


==Note b==
==Note b==
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== infobox ==
== infobox ==


The infobox was too long and contained lists of names that distract from the more important elements in it. Therefore, I have removed/collapsed them [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=J%C3%B3zef_Pi%C5%82sudski&type=revision&diff=980494448&oldid=980493101] ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] &#183; [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 20:51, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
The infobox was too long and contained lists of names that distract from the more important elements in it. Therefore, I have removed/collapsed them [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=J%C3%B3zef_Pi%C5%82sudski&type=revision&diff=980494448&oldid=980493101] ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 20:51, 26 September 2020 (UTC)


== In government section ==
== In government section ==
Line 534: Line 234:


:At the top of what? Can you quote and/or be more precise? I don't see any inconsistency anywhere. Anyway, it's Piłsudski not Pilsudski. Maybe your computer doesn't display [[WP:DIACRITICS]] correctly? <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 10:51, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
:At the top of what? Can you quote and/or be more precise? I don't see any inconsistency anywhere. Anyway, it's Piłsudski not Pilsudski. Maybe your computer doesn't display [[WP:DIACRITICS]] correctly? <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 10:51, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
Three lines below the title and one above the start of the main text (certainly while logged in). No I see no diacritic in the name at either point although there is one over the O in Josef. -an accute accent in the main title and a dot in the first word of text.. [[User:Spinney Hill|Spinney Hill]] ([[User talk:Spinney Hill|talk]]) 11:59, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
The surname of his ancestors came from the name of the Pilsūdai area in the current Tauragė district of Lithuania <ref>https://kvr.kpd.lt/#/static-heritage-detail/87605910-13D7-487D-8D43-75EC5A43FBD7</ref>.

{{reflist-talk}}
== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 March 2022 ==

{{edit extended-protected|Józef Piłsudski|answered=yes}}
Hello,

Requesting info box edit: add his position of Minister of Military Affairs (1928-1935) - because this is pretty important as it allowed him to influence the state until his death.
Now it looks at first glance that he played no important role after 1928. [[User:Rebelbear|Rebelbear]] ([[User talk:Rebelbear|talk]]) 11:37, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done for now:''' please establish a [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] for this alteration '''[[Wikipedia:Edit requests|before]]''' using the {{tlx|edit extended-protected}} template.<!-- Template:EEp --> [[User:Snowmanonahoe|Snowmanonahoe]] ([[User talk:Snowmanonahoe|talk]]) 12:21, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

== Lack of reliable source for "red tram" quote ==

{{Edit extended-protected|Józef Piłsudski|answered=yes}}
The ''Head of State'' section under ''Rebuilding Poland'' contains the following paragraph:

{{Blockquote
|text=The day after his arrival in Warsaw, he met with old colleagues from his time working with the underground resistance, who addressed him socialist-style as "Comrade" (Towarzysz) and asked for his support for their revolutionary policies. He refused it and answered: "Comrades, I took the red tram of socialism to the stop called Independence, and that's where I got off. You may keep on to the final stop if you wish, but from now on let's address each other as 'Mister' [rather than continue using the socialist term of address, 'Comrade']!" He declined to support any party and did not form any political organization of his own; instead, he advocated creating a coalition government..
}}


I tried to find the source of this quote, but it appears (and correct me if I'm wrong here) that it in fact originated from Adolf Nowaczyński, who wrote ''of'' Piłsudzki in 1919 that he "got off the ''party'' tram at the stop called Independence". I believe a quote closer to the one cited in the Wikpedia article can be found in the monograph ''White Eagle, Red Star'' by Norman Davies, where he cites it as something that Piłsudzki himself "supposedly" said. On the other hand, Piłsudzki biographer Andrzej Garlicki says this quote is "not in [Piłsudzki's] style".
Three lines below the title and one above the start of the main text (certainly while logged in). No I see no diacritic in the name at either point although there is one over the O in Josef. -an accute accent in the main title and a dot in the first word of text.. [[User:Spinney Hill|Spinney Hill]] ([[User talk:Spinney Hill|talk]]) 11:59, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

The "red tram" quote is no doubt a compelling representation of Piłsudzki's fascinating and somewhat mysterious relationship with socialism (plus it contributes to the popular conception of the man as a silver-tongued devil), but I think there's simply far too much disagreement about its authenticity for it to be included in the article the way it appears now. I suggest either removing the quote altogether or specifying that it's of dubious validity.

Sources consulted:

* https://kurierhistoryczny.pl/artykul/wysiadlem-z-czerwonego-tramwaju-czyli-czego-nie-powiedzial-jozef-pilsudski,368

* https://histmag.org/Gdzie-Pilsudski-wysiadl-z-tramwaju-czyli-historie-poprzekrecane-14909 [[User:Spontaneously|Spontaneously]] ([[User talk:Spontaneously|talk]]) 15:49, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

:@[[User:Spontaneously|Spontaneously]] Seems like a valid point. I'll review the sources soon. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 16:10, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
:[[File:Pictogram voting wait blue.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''In progress:''' An editor is implementing the requested edit.<!-- Template:EEp --> Working on it! [[User:Actualcpscm|Actualcpscm]] ([[User talk:Actualcpscm|talk]]) 18:41, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
::Done, thanks for pointing this out! :) [[User:Actualcpscm|Actualcpscm]] ([[User talk:Actualcpscm|talk]]) 18:56, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
:::Thanks! Have a good day. [[User:Spontaneously|Spontaneously]] ([[User talk:Spontaneously|talk]]) 19:27, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Actualcpscm|Actualcpscm]] [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=J%C3%B3zef_Pi%C5%82sudski&diff=1145002830&oldid=1144472955&diffmode=source Looks good]! <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 08:11, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
:I think it is worth adding at this place the story of the red banner at the Royal Castle ({{tq|Although on November 12 a red banner was hung over the Royal Castle with Pilsudski's permission to calm the revolutionary mood, but after a few weeks, when the wave of important social reforms of the government appointed by the Provisional Head of State Jędrzej Moraczewski swept through the country, the banner was ordered without much publicity to be taken down by Pilsudski's closest associate at the time - Kazimierz Sosnkowski. The red-and-white banner returned to the Castle. Poland as a Republic - the Republic was reborn after 123 years of slavery}}; [https://www.polska-zbrojna.pl/home/articleshow/26840 link]), but it is better to find confirmation in the good RS. [[User:Marcelus|Marcelus]] ([[User talk:Marcelus|talk]]) 08:54, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

== Typo/Grammar error ==

Grammar error: In the "Legacy" section, "comrades-in-arms of Piłsudski's" should be "comrades-in-arms of Piłsudski" [[Special:Contributions/81.187.20.112|81.187.20.112]] ([[User talk:81.187.20.112|talk]]) 21:11, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

== Typo ==

“First Marshall” should be changed to “First Marshal” in the short description. [[Special:Contributions/142.167.21.12|142.167.21.12]] ([[User talk:142.167.21.12|talk]]) 15:31, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

== Zułów ==

@[[User:Cukrakalnis|Cukrakalnis]] can you give a reasoning for the Lithuanisation of the Zułów estate name? [[User:Marcelus|Marcelus]] ([[User talk:Marcelus|talk]]) 22:05, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

:Why are you so intent on Polonizing the name of a Lithuanian village? The Polish name was definitely not the one used in the Russian Empire which was forcibly russifying everything it could, so there is no argument for using the Polish name due to historical accuracy. [[User:Cukrakalnis|Cukrakalnis]] ([[User talk:Cukrakalnis|talk]]) 09:32, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

::@[[Administrators]]! The above user is a Lithuanian nationalist and he should refrain from editing this page. Zułów was a Polish village, owned by Polish nobility, of which Piłsudski was part. [[User:HetmanWL|HetmanWL]] ([[User talk:HetmanWL|talk]]) 16:02, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
:::@[[User:HetmanWL|HetmanWL]] Please read [[WP:AGF]] and [[WP:NPA]] <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 04:48, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
:Regarding [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=J%C3%B3zef_Pi%C5%82sudski&diff=prev&oldid=1173802778 this], I support using the Polish spelling, since this concerns the Polish-speaking [[Piłsudski family]]. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 04:44, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
::Also the reasoning given ({{tq|The Lithuanian village was certainly not called by a Polish-language name during the Russian Empire's existence, that's absurd}}) is faulty; because there is no logical connection between both statement; just because some village was part of Russian empire it doesn't mean it couldn't be called by a Polish name. [[User:Marcelus|Marcelus]] ([[User talk:Marcelus|talk]]) 08:39, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
:::Right. Btw, pl wiki article is at [[:pl:Zułowo]] not Zułów. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 09:47, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
::::Then commit to editing the name to the proper Polish form, please @[[User:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] [[Special:Contributions/2A00:F41:80EB:9A95:50B8:3473:8A19:941E|2A00:F41:80EB:9A95:50B8:3473:8A19:941E]] ([[User talk:2A00:F41:80EB:9A95:50B8:3473:8A19:941E|talk]]) 07:14, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
::::I second the motion above, @[[User:Piotrus|Piotrus]] Please, please fix the name to the right one--Zułów/Zułowo. [[User:FeldmarschallGneisenau|FeldmarschallGneisenau]] ([[User talk:FeldmarschallGneisenau|talk]]) 09:03, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
:::::[[WP:BEBOLD]] - you can do it. I am busy with other things, and the tone taken by the anon further discentivies me from this. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 12:03, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
::::::I can't do it, I'm not extended-confirmed-protected. Hence this extended-confirmed-protected-edit-request [[User:FeldmarschallGneisenau|FeldmarschallGneisenau]] ([[User talk:FeldmarschallGneisenau|talk]]) 10:19, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
:::::::@[[User:FeldmarschallGneisenau|FeldmarschallGneisenau]] Fair enough, I've made the change. I've also added a clarification per cited source ("he was born in the family manor called Zułów close to the Zułowo village"). <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 12:19, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
J.Pilsudski spoke Lithuanian <ref>https://www.lrytas.lt/kultura/istorija/2007/07/17/news/marsalas-j-pilsudskis-lietuviukus-kalbino-lietuviskai-5951234/amp/</ref>.

{{reflist-talk}}
== "[[Józef Piłsudski]]" needs thorough copyedit ==

I have done some work on the article's "skeleton".

This ''featured article'' very badly needs a thoroughgoing copyedit for English usage and style, which I don't now have time to undertake.

Thanks.

[[User:Nihil novi|Nihil novi]] ([[User talk:Nihil novi|talk]]) 09:43, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

== Please revert the image in the infobox - extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 February 2024 ==

{{Edit extended-protected|Józef Piłsudski|answered=yes}}
Please revert the image in the infobox to the previous. <br/>
The current image in the infobox ([[:commons:File:Jozef Pilsudski1 (cropped).jpg]] added in [[Special:Permalink/1204534991|this revision]]) was altered using AI software and is likely innacurate. Please revert the change to the infobox, making it use the previous image ([[:commons:File:Józef Piłsudski (-1930).jpg]]), as can be seen in [[Special:Permalink/1195757287|this older revision]]. <br/>
Current infobox:
<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext">{{Infobox officeholder
| honorific_prefix = [[Marshal (Poland)|Marshal]]
| name = Józef Piłsudski
| image = File:Jozef Pilsudski1 (cropped).jpg
| imagesize =
| caption = Józef Piłsudski
| office2 = [[Chief of State of Poland]]
| term_start2 = 22 November 1918
| term_end2 = 14 December 1922
| primeminister2 = {{Collapsible list|title={{nobold|''See list''}}
| [[Jędrzej Moraczewski]]
| [[Ignacy Jan Paderewski]]
| [[Leopold Skulski]]
| [[Władysław Grabski]]
| [[Wincenty Witos]]
| [[Antoni Ponikowski]]
| [[Artur Śliwiński]]
| [[Julian Nowak]]
}}</syntaxhighlight>
Requested edit:
<syntaxhighlight lang="wikitext">{{Infobox officeholder
| honorific_prefix = [[Marshal (Poland)|Marshal]]
| name = Józef Piłsudski
| image = Józef Piłsudski (-1930).jpg
| imagesize =
| caption = Piłsudski {{circa|1920s}}
| office2 = [[Chief of State of Poland]]
| term_start2 = 22 November 1918
| term_end2 = 14 December 1922
| primeminister2 = {{Collapsible list|title={{nobold|''See list''}}
| [[Jędrzej Moraczewski]]
| [[Ignacy Jan Paderewski]]
| [[Leopold Skulski]]
| [[Władysław Grabski]]
| [[Wincenty Witos]]
| [[Antoni Ponikowski]]
| [[Artur Śliwiński]]
| [[Julian Nowak]]
}}</syntaxhighlight>
Alternatively, add another image that doesn't have AI-made changes. <br/> [[User:CaradoWindows|CaradoWindows]] ([[User talk:CaradoWindows|talk]]) 17:30, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
:{{done}}<!-- Template:EEp --> [[User:NotAGenious|NotAGenious]] ([[User talk:NotAGenious|talk]]) 09:38, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

== Prime Minister or President? ==

The page for the Second Polish Republic lists him as President, yet here he is referred to as Prime Minister. Which of these is correct? [[User:PhoenixCaelestis|&#45;Emily (PhoenixCaelestis)]] ([[User talk:PhoenixCaelestis|talk]]) 23:19, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

:Both at different times. [[User:Spinney Hill|Spinney Hill]] ([[User talk:Spinney Hill|talk]]) 08:45, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 08:45, 15 October 2024

Featured articleJózef Piłsudski is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on April 5, 2010.
On this day... Article milestones
DateProcessResult
January 14, 2006Good article nomineeListed
May 25, 2006Good article reassessmentDelisted
June 7, 2006Good article nomineeListed
June 30, 2006Peer reviewReviewed
July 10, 2006Featured article candidateNot promoted
August 21, 2006WikiProject peer reviewReviewed
October 3, 2006WikiProject A-class reviewApproved
January 21, 2008Featured article candidatePromoted
On this day... Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on November 11, 2013, November 11, 2019, and November 11, 2023.
Current status: Featured article

Foreign Policy

[edit]

The following seems very derogatory to France and Britain and Pilsudski:Chancellor Hitler repeatedly suggested a German-Polish alliance against the Soviet Union, but Piłsudski refused, instead preparing his horse-mounted cavalry for suicide charges against the vast Soviet armored divisions.[48][158] Until his death, Piłsudski believed Poland's policy must be to maintain neutral relations with the Germany Empire, while maintaining tenuous -- and illusory -- alliances with the weak French socialist bureaucracies and the isolationist British.[146] Is this really what the source says and if so can the source really be reliable or unbiased ? After all the alliance with Britain and France seemed ineffective rather than an illusion. In 1939 it was real enough to bring France and Britain into the war making the German Polish War a World War even though it didnt save Poland for defeat or give Poland real independence six years later. I don't have any expertise in this field and don't have the source book but it just seems wrong to me. Spinney Hill (talk) 01:25, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

i think it's an accurate statement. . is coverage of serious mistakes =?? derogatory?? No--wiki follows the reliable secondary sources. is it "derogatory" to some statesmen? Well the consensus of historians is that those statesmen made LOTS of serious--even fatal-- mistakes in late 1930s. Rjensen (talk) 04:46, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The answer appears to be in an earlier version which I have re-instated which uses the sourceSpinney Hill (talk) 09:52, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I FAed this ~10 years ago but since then the article has slightly deteriorated; the idiotic cavalry trolling is of course just that ([1]). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 17:01, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

FA criteria

[edit]

Regrettably, the article does not currently meet the FA criteria. I will start by listing the concrete issues:

  • Prose issues:
    • short, choppy paragraphs are an issue throughout.
    • Inconsistent use of British vs. American spelling
  • MOS: lead, and image location are some of the issues which jump out
  • Referencing:
    • Some of the non-cited statements have been flagged in the article
    • Much of the Honours section is unsourced
    • Bare urls are cited
    • Citation style is not consistent
    • Józef_Piłsudski#Sources lists some sources that are not actually cited in the article.
  • The "Legacy" section is a mix of things that are actually important and indiscriminate lists of relatively unimportant things named after him. This would benefit from being spun off into a separate article, along with the long (and poorly sourced) list of honors

I also see above that multiple editors have expressed concerns that the article downplays the authoritarian characteristics of his regime. Non-Polish sources describe his regime as a dictatorship, considering this one of the most prominent aspects of his life (notice it is mentioned in the short, one-paragraph summary in Encyclopedia of War).[1][2][3] In addition, The Polish Review did an issue dedicated to him in 2011[2] and there was an interesting article on the subject, published just this year.[4] (t · c) buidhe 06:30, 25 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Smith, Helmut Walser (2011). The Oxford Handbook of Modern German History. OUP Oxford. p. 436. ISBN 978-0-19-923739-5.
  2. ^ Kopstein, Jeffrey S.; Wittenberg, Jason (2010). "Beyond Dictatorship and Democracy: Rethinking National Minority Inclusion and Regime Type in Interwar Eastern Europe". Comparative Political Studies. 43 (8–9): 1089–1118. doi:10.1177/0010414010370437.
  3. ^ Schwonek, Matthew R. (2011). "Piłsudski, Józef Klemens (1867-1935)". The Encyclopedia of War. doi:10.1002/9781444338232.wbeow492.
  4. ^ von Weikersthal, Felicitas Fischer (2020). "From Terrorists to Statesmen: Terrorism and Polish Independence". Studies in Conflict & Terrorism. 43 (1): 5–23. doi:10.1080/1057610X.2018.1471967.
I added missing references. I don't think anyone in Poland would disagree that his regime was a dictatorship. Which sections above specifically do you think contain constructive criticism that has not been addressed? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:54, 25 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the lead still does not have a reference to it, despite being rather too long according to MOS:LEAD. (t · c) buidhe 10:55, 25 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Soft dictatorship - [1] [2] - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:35, 25 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  • Mainstream organizations of ethnic minorities similarly expressed their support for his policies of ethnic tolerance, though he was criticized by, in addition to the Polish communists, the Jewish Labour Bund, and Ukrainian, German and Lithuanian extremists. So, according to Wikipedia, ethnic minority groups who support Pilsudski are "mainstream", while those who oppose him are "extremists"? Surely there is a more NPOV to phrase this. (t · c) buidhe 04:18, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi buidhe, GizzyCatBella and Piotrus, I anm pinging you because you commented on the above FAR notice. There are still outstanding issues for this article including citation needed tags, the honours section that has an "additional citations needed" banner, a long legacy section with many short paragraphs, and inconsistent formatting in the references section. Are any of you interested in bringing this article back to FA standards, or should this be brought to FAR? Z1720 (talk) 19:18, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Z1720 I will see about adding missing references (or removing unreferenced claims) shortly. As for language issues and related copyediting, I'll also ping User:Nihil novi. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:30, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Z1720 Just a ping that most if not all of the above was addressed, please let me know what was missed. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:18, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Piotrus: Thanks for the ping. I am adding this to my to-do list. Since you are a FA writer (I see 22 FAs on your user page!) Can you also assess to see if this article still meets FA standards? If it does, can you mark it as "Satisfactory" at WP:URFA/2020? URFA/2020 is a working group to review and repair older FAs, and your assessment will help us complete this task. Z1720 (talk) 19:51, 3 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Piotrus: Since you are actively editing this article, I want to take a much closer review of the article and conduct a copyedit. I am following WP:BOLD and editing some parts of the article, but I will need to seek clarification on some parts because I have never heard of this person and I don't know the history of this article or its FAC. I hope that you, or another editor, can answer some of my questions below, and I am sorry if they seem silly, ill-informed or pedantic. Please also review the copyedits I make to ensure I didn't accidentally change the meaning of a sentence. Questions are below:

  • The first paragraph of Early life goes into a lot of detail of the political boundaries of Pilsudski's village. Why was this included into the article?
  • The Early life section is quite long. I split up the early paragraphs into level 3 headings. I put the PPS information in its own section, as it seems to be a separate part of his life from his early years. I'm not thrilled with the heading names I placed in the article, so if others think of better names or better places to split the information, please do so.
  • "(he knew French, German and Lithuanian in addition to Russian and his native Polish; he would later learn English)." Should this be placed in a note?
  • " During the exile, he participated in a prisoner mutiny and two of his front teeth were knocked off when he was hit by the back of a gun – missing teeth is the reason for his characteristic, bushy mustache." Is this the same incident mentioned in the previous paragraph?
  • "and settled in Adomavas Manor near Teneniai" is this Teneniai, and can it be wikilinked?
  • "According to his chief biographer, Wacław Jędrzejewicz," is this Wacław Jędrzejewicz, and can it be wikilinked?
  • "Maria died in 1921, and in October, Piłsudski married Aleksandra. By then, the couple had two daughters," Are these the daughters of maria or Aleksandra?
  • "During this period, almost all parties in Russian Poland and Lithuania took a conciliatory position toward the Russian Empire and aimed at negotiating within it a limited autonomy for Poland. Piłsudski's PPS was the only political force prepared to fight the Empire for Polish independence and to resort to violence to achieve that goal." I'm not sure what purpose this sentence is serving in this article. Can it be removed?
  • I tried adding Template:Inflation to 200,812 rubles, but it calculated an inflation of $8,475,746,758,631 in 2007, so I think I messed something up. Does this amount seem wrong to you? If so, any ideas on how to calculate this correctly?
  • "In 1914, Piłsudski declared, "Only the sword now carries any weight in the balance for the destiny of a nation."" The article doesn't have analysis of this quote. Is this here to showcase Pilsudski's opinion that violence was the only way to obtain his goals? This should be clarified in the article, or perhaps removed.

This brings me to WWI. Please ping me when the above are addressed/resolved, and I will take another look. However, I am also very busy in real life so please excuse my delays in responding. Z1720 (talk) 21:02, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Z1720 Thank you for your c/e and other comments, but please note that when splitting some paragraphs you seem to have created some inadvertently unreferenced ends-of-paragraphs (ex. "Józef was the second son born to the family.". Can you re-add references fur such cases?
My replies to your comments:
  • "Political boundaries". Assuming this is from what I wrote ~10 years ago, apparently I thought it was relevant, I still think it is not UNDUE.
  • I think I am a little confused as to why some of this stuff is here, as opposed to further down in the article when the things happen in Pilsudski's life (for example, his village becoming part of the USSR after WWII). It seems like a lot of information to put at the beginning of the bio that is outside of chronological order. Z1720 (talk) 01:05, 7 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Languages and note. It could be moved to a note, but one of the wiki-controversies about the subject is his nationality/ethnicity/etc. As such, discussion of his cultural background, including languages known, is arguably more due in the main text than in some comparable articles.
  • presumably so, I removed one problematic ref, the other is ok-ish (pl:Viva! (dwutygodnik)).
  • Teneniai wikilink - done
  • Wacław Jędrzejewicz wikilink - done
  • daughters - Aleksandra (feel free to c/e to make it more clear). I also added a missing ref which was lost long ago during some random c/e...
  • "During this period" - this sentence illustrates how Pilskudski's political views and activities differed from many of his contemporaries and I think it is relevant?
  • I think we should flip the order, perhaps something like, "During this period, Piłsudski's PPS was the only political force prepared to fight the Empire for Polish independence and to resort to violence to achieve that goal. Almost all of the other parties in Russian Poland and Lithuania took a conciliatory position toward the Russian Empire and aimed at negotiating within it a limited autonomy for Poland." This allows the reader to immediately know how this relates to Pilsudski, instead of waiting until the second sentence. Z1720 (talk) 01:05, 7 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I responded to the bullet points above underneath each point, in order to keep the conversation organised and easy to follow, as is done at WP:FAC. I have signed all of the comments that I have added. If I did not add a comment, it means that I think it is resolved. I hope this is OK, and editors are invited to respond under the bullet points below:

  • "Soon afterward he officially established the Polish Legions," How soon afterwards? Is there a date or more specific timeline?
  • "which would remain for years to come. The Polish Legions fought against Russia, at the side of the Central Powers, until 1917." This needs a citation.
  • "Soon after forming the Legions," is there a more specific time period? A date, or perhaps "a few weeks/a few months later"?
  • "On 5 November 1916 the Central Powers proclaimed the "independence" of Poland," Why is independence in quotes? If it is a quotation from the Central Powers, I think the document that declares this should be quoted. If it is because Poland wasn't technically independent at this time, then it should be removed per MOS:SCAREQUOTES. Even if the independence of Poland is in doubt, I don't think the reader will actually think that Poland was independent after reading this sentence, only that the Central Powers made a declaration. If there is still concern about this, then maybe a short sentence explaining the creation of the Kingdom of Poland (1916–1918) can be added here.
  • "the most determined Polish leader," The most determined leader among who?
  • "and soon, like Vladimir Lenin before them," I'm not sure if this is relevant to the article. Is it important for the reader of this article to know that Lenin was placed on a train to his country's capital?
  • I think "File:Pilsudski and officers 1915.jpg" might have to be removed because of MOS:SANDWICH concerns. I think the other two images in the WWI section are better representations of Pilsudski during this time. Thoughts?
  • For "File:Jozef Pilsudski3.jpg": What year (or approximation) was this photo taken in?

This brings me to "Rebuilding Poland". Sorry that I am going slow with this review, I am busy at the moment so don't have time to read through large amounts of the article. Z1720 (talk) 01:05, 7 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Z1720 As you can see, I was busy as well and just caught up here. All issues fixed by adding cites, references or removal of information. Regarding the last image, I think it may need to be deleted due to lack of source (it is probably PD but we need proof). We could replace it with either File:Józef Piłsudski we Wiedniu (1914).jpg or File:Pilsudski 1910 1920 LOC hec 14263 restored.jpg which are roughly similar and from the right time frame. Which one would you prefer? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:15, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Piotrus: I prefer "Pilsudski 1910 1920 LOC hec 14263 restored" as it's clearer, it's a portrait shot so we can see his face more clearly and the military gear in the first image is plain and doesn't give additional information to the reader. Z1720 (talk) 15:25, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your response above Piotrus. Don't worry about the delays, I'm just happy someone is improving the article. More thoughts below:

  • "On 11 November 1918 in Warsaw, Piłsudski was appointed Commander in Chief of Polish forces" Is "in Warsaw" necessary here?
  • "On that very day, which would become Poland's Independence Day, he proclaimed an independent Polish state." Did he declare the independent Polish state after he became Commander in Chief? If so, I want to change "On that very day" to "Later that day"
  • "He drove himself hard, working all day and all night. He maintained a simple lifestyle, eating plain meals alone at an inexpensive restaurant." I think this wording is idealising Pilsudski a little too much. I assume that someone running a country is continuously working, so I don't think that's notable. I think the sentence about the simple lifestyle is trying to show that Pilsidski was a good person, and I think the subsequent sentence about his reputation as a loner is more neutral in describing his personality and leadership style. I think these two sentences can be deleted. Thoughts?
  • I removed File:PL Turek Pilsudski Monument 11.jpg from the Rebuilding Poland section because there were lots of images in this section I did not know how it related to the text here, as it was built in 1936.
  • "thousands of officers and deserters joined the Red Army, and thousands of civilians volunteered for war work." Were these Polish officers and deserters? If so, this should be noted and if not it should probably be removed.
  • Norman Davis's quote is very long. Can this be summarised?
  • "In the West, it was perceived at the time that it General Maxime Weygand of the French Military Mission to Poland saved Poland; modern scholars, however, agree that Weygand's role was minimal, at best." I'm not sure if this sentence is needed in a biography about Pilsudski, and suggest deleting it.
  • "A junior member of the French military mission, Charles de Gaulle, adapted some lessons from the Polish-Soviet War as well as from Piłsudski's career." I am not sure if this is needed in this article, and recommend deleting it.
  • Rebuilding Poland and the Polish-Soviet war sections are both very long. Is it possible to incorporate Level 3 headings?
  • There are too many images in "Retirement and coup", causing MOS:SANDWICH I suggest removing one or two images.
  • All images need alt language.

This brings me to "In government". Z1720 (talk) 17:20, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Piotrus: any progress on the above? Z1720 (talk) 00:50, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Z1720 I am sorry, I have zillion things on my watchlist and I am afraid I often miss talk updates. If I could ask you to directly ping me when you comment here, I hope it will speed things up!
Regarding the issues raised above, I simplified the sentence about him working "long hours", but I think it is interesting to know a bit about his lifestyle, including the fact that he liked dining at cheap restaurants. I agree this puts him in a sympathetic light, but as it is relevant and referenced, I think that's fine (as in, I don't think it is unduly biased or promotional). If you feel strongly about this, we can start a dedicated talk page discussion about this and invite further comments?
I have rewritten/removed some other content you mentoned. I shortened the quote by Davis, through I hate to gut it further as it is quite elegant. One section heading was added. Which image would you suggest we remove? Are alt language GA-level requirement? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:21, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Piotrus: Sorry about not pinging you in responses; my watchlist is getting full, too, and I think I'm going to purge it soon.
  • Re the restaurant info: I think it would be OK to include if it was explained to the reader why this is important: was this different from how other members of his leadership acted? Was this a policy that all leadership in his party/country/administrators were expected to act? Context will help bring this away from idolizing and more towards informative.
  • Re images: File:Dworek_w_Sulejówku would be my suggestion to remove as it is hard to see the individual people in the thumb. Alt language is a requirement for FAs, as it is part of MOS:ACCESS. This is also something frequently asked for in image reviews at FAC, so I'm just following their lead. I have a lot of projects on my plate, but I'll add this article to my queue of articles to review. If I don't respond in a week, please ping and remind me. Z1720 (talk) 16:23, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Z1720 Re: the restaurant, I think the context is "most politicians/leaders", today or in the past. I find it self-explanatory on that level, and I don't think it needs contextualizing to his party/culture or such. As for the image, good pick, I'll remove it. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:30, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Piotrus: I am so sorry that I have not given more comments; real life got busy. Please let me know if I missed any questions/concerns above. Here are some more comments:

  • "sought to "restore public life to moral health"." Who said this quote? Was this of the opinion of Pilsudski?
  • "Others contend that, particularly from the late 1920s, he supported the development of these military branches." Who are these others?
  • I have made changes and cuts to the article. Please review and let me know if there are objections. I think lots of short paragraphs were added after its promotion, so many of these cuts were redundant, off-topic, or out of place prose imo.
  • Note A needs a citation
  • General comment: the citations seem to be a mix of <ref>, template:r and template:sfn. These need to be standardised so that only one citation template is used throughout the article.
  • Images still need MOS:ALT

I am at the end of the article. I'll do another readthrough once the above are complete. Z1720 (talk) 02:52, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, sorry to interrupt but I deleted a passage about the "robust union" in the lead section since I could not find it in the provided citation. Also, I have added the missing letter ń for Szczerbińska in the infobox. In the Descendants section, there is an expression "Both were very involved"; is there an alternative term for "very"? It sounds somewhat unprofessional for an FA article. Perhaps "highly involved" or "actively involved"? Regards. Merangs (talk) 03:25, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I traced the "moral health" problem - over 10 years ago someone expanded the quote for the term "moral health" to "restore public life to moral health", creating impression this was a larger quote. I'd suggest rewriting this to (no quotes in main body) "sought to restore moral health to public life". I also found [sought to restore moral health to public life a RS] for this (the old version was sourced to a Polish encyclopedia ([3]), not sure why this ref got lost over the years, but anyway, we prefer secondary sources (books) to tertiary (encyclopedias), right? I'll be working on referencing the names section over the next few days (it was never referenced, but AFAIK is correct), any help with ALT for images would be appreciated. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:54, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Per MOS:FOREIGNITALIC, I don't think Sejm should be italicised as Sejm is a proper noun. I started removing italics from instances, but would like to hear others' opinions. Z1720 (talk) 21:14, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Z1720 I concur re Sejm, I didn't notice any italics - but I'd have removed them myself (outside titles, of course). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:46, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Additional comments:

  • "Józef was the second son born to the family." Needs a citation
  • "and health problems that would plague him throughout life." Can this be more specific?
  • "Rebuilding Poland" is quite long. Any level 3 headings we can add to that section?
  • "but the April Constitution served Poland until World War II, and carried its Government in Exile until the end of the war and beyond." When was this constitution no longer used?
  • Refs still need to be standardised into one ref format, and added refs since this article's FAC should be evaluated to ensure they are of high-quality.

More comments after the above are addressed. Z1720 (talk) 04:17, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Added cite and subheadings. I don't have access to Urbankowski to check if he went into any details. As for the constitutions, it's complicated, since the Gov't in Exile used in - AFAIK until it dissolved itself c. 1989; in Poland the constitution was abolished de facto first by the occupying powers, and then by the communist gov't. It's probably too complicated to discuss it in the text in detail. As for the refs, ouch, over the years they were reformatted by some people away from my preferred format (I hate the "helpers" who swoop by and add the Harvard templates that don't work nicely with most other code) and in all honesty I really dislike spending my time on tweaking the citations... know any wikignome who could help? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 17:12, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Piotrus: Is the sfn template the preferred style for this article? I can fix the citations on my next readthrough. Z1720 (talk) 15:12, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Z1720: Sigh, it seems nowiki parameter or someone's lack of using it for a ref parameter earlier(?) broke the reply gadget. I meant to say thank you, it would be appreciated, but I dislike sfn as it doesn't work with VE. Instead I use the classic <ref name-book1>cite template</ref> code, with the minor twist that I use {{rp}} for page numbers now. This way we don't get multiple footnotes for the same book - we get one footnote ex. [1] for all the times a given book is used, but the page numbers are in the body, not the footnotes. I am open to hearing what you prefer, but for me, the make it or break it deal is that a cite format should play nicely with the VE. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:04, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Piotrus: I am happy to do this conversion, but I'm a little confused about the preferred formatting. Can you provide an example of the full coding, as it would look in the markup? (Maybe by using a reference from this article?) Thanks, Z1720 (talk) 01:54, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Z1720 For my current preferred formatting, see my recent GAs Space travel in science fiction (note: it has a very big footnote sections due to consensus on talk to split examples from text for readability), Earth in science fiction (ditto), or Hyperspace. I prefer to quote specific pages, but use the rp template instead of (as I did in the past) to have a 'full reference with a page' in the footnote. I find this system pretty good both for the editor and the reader, and VE friendly. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:13, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note b

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Note "b" does not make any sense so far as I can see. Can anyone improve it?Spinney Hill (talk) 08:41, 25 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have rewritten the note, the middle was 'philosophized' way too much. This is not the Simple English Wikipedia, but this was totally in the realm of high academese, or some related "post-modern" garbage. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:52, 25 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

infobox

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The infobox was too long and contained lists of names that distract from the more important elements in it. Therefore, I have removed/collapsed them [4] (t · c) buidhe 20:51, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In government section

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It says in this section 31st of May, it doesn't say which year

Should be fixed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EmilePersaud 16:03, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. 1926, of course. Can be infered from the prior section too. But I agree, it should have been clarified. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:58, 24 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 June 2021

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Rokkas Piłsudski is watching this.. StrangePersonality (talk) 05:26, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Living Concrete (talk) 07:54, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Surname.

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It says at the top that his name was Pilsudski not Pilsudski but the spellings appear to be exactly the same. What is going on here please?. Is there a mistake which still needs to be corrected?Spinney Hill (talk) 09:42, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

At the top of what? Can you quote and/or be more precise? I don't see any inconsistency anywhere. Anyway, it's Piłsudski not Pilsudski. Maybe your computer doesn't display WP:DIACRITICS correctly? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:51, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Three lines below the title and one above the start of the main text (certainly while logged in). No I see no diacritic in the name at either point although there is one over the O in Josef. -an accute accent in the main title and a dot in the first word of text.. Spinney Hill (talk) 11:59, 22 November 2021 (UTC) The surname of his ancestors came from the name of the Pilsūdai area in the current Tauragė district of Lithuania [1].[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 March 2022

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Hello,

Requesting info box edit: add his position of Minister of Military Affairs (1928-1935) - because this is pretty important as it allowed him to influence the state until his death. Now it looks at first glance that he played no important role after 1928. Rebelbear (talk) 11:37, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. Snowmanonahoe (talk) 12:21, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Lack of reliable source for "red tram" quote

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The Head of State section under Rebuilding Poland contains the following paragraph:

The day after his arrival in Warsaw, he met with old colleagues from his time working with the underground resistance, who addressed him socialist-style as "Comrade" (Towarzysz) and asked for his support for their revolutionary policies. He refused it and answered: "Comrades, I took the red tram of socialism to the stop called Independence, and that's where I got off. You may keep on to the final stop if you wish, but from now on let's address each other as 'Mister' [rather than continue using the socialist term of address, 'Comrade']!" He declined to support any party and did not form any political organization of his own; instead, he advocated creating a coalition government..

I tried to find the source of this quote, but it appears (and correct me if I'm wrong here) that it in fact originated from Adolf Nowaczyński, who wrote of Piłsudzki in 1919 that he "got off the party tram at the stop called Independence". I believe a quote closer to the one cited in the Wikpedia article can be found in the monograph White Eagle, Red Star by Norman Davies, where he cites it as something that Piłsudzki himself "supposedly" said. On the other hand, Piłsudzki biographer Andrzej Garlicki says this quote is "not in [Piłsudzki's] style".

The "red tram" quote is no doubt a compelling representation of Piłsudzki's fascinating and somewhat mysterious relationship with socialism (plus it contributes to the popular conception of the man as a silver-tongued devil), but I think there's simply far too much disagreement about its authenticity for it to be included in the article the way it appears now. I suggest either removing the quote altogether or specifying that it's of dubious validity.

Sources consulted:

@Spontaneously Seems like a valid point. I'll review the sources soon. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 16:10, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In progress: An editor is implementing the requested edit. Working on it! Actualcpscm (talk) 18:41, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Done, thanks for pointing this out! :) Actualcpscm (talk) 18:56, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! Have a good day. Spontaneously (talk) 19:27, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Actualcpscm Looks good! Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:11, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is worth adding at this place the story of the red banner at the Royal Castle (Although on November 12 a red banner was hung over the Royal Castle with Pilsudski's permission to calm the revolutionary mood, but after a few weeks, when the wave of important social reforms of the government appointed by the Provisional Head of State Jędrzej Moraczewski swept through the country, the banner was ordered without much publicity to be taken down by Pilsudski's closest associate at the time - Kazimierz Sosnkowski. The red-and-white banner returned to the Castle. Poland as a Republic - the Republic was reborn after 123 years of slavery; link), but it is better to find confirmation in the good RS. Marcelus (talk) 08:54, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Typo/Grammar error

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Grammar error: In the "Legacy" section, "comrades-in-arms of Piłsudski's" should be "comrades-in-arms of Piłsudski" 81.187.20.112 (talk) 21:11, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Typo

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“First Marshall” should be changed to “First Marshal” in the short description. 142.167.21.12 (talk) 15:31, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Zułów

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@Cukrakalnis can you give a reasoning for the Lithuanisation of the Zułów estate name? Marcelus (talk) 22:05, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why are you so intent on Polonizing the name of a Lithuanian village? The Polish name was definitely not the one used in the Russian Empire which was forcibly russifying everything it could, so there is no argument for using the Polish name due to historical accuracy. Cukrakalnis (talk) 09:32, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Administrators! The above user is a Lithuanian nationalist and he should refrain from editing this page. Zułów was a Polish village, owned by Polish nobility, of which Piłsudski was part. HetmanWL (talk) 16:02, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@HetmanWL Please read WP:AGF and WP:NPA Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:48, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding this, I support using the Polish spelling, since this concerns the Polish-speaking Piłsudski family. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:44, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also the reasoning given (The Lithuanian village was certainly not called by a Polish-language name during the Russian Empire's existence, that's absurd) is faulty; because there is no logical connection between both statement; just because some village was part of Russian empire it doesn't mean it couldn't be called by a Polish name. Marcelus (talk) 08:39, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Right. Btw, pl wiki article is at pl:Zułowo not Zułów. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:47, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Then commit to editing the name to the proper Polish form, please @Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 2A00:F41:80EB:9A95:50B8:3473:8A19:941E (talk) 07:14, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I second the motion above, @Piotrus Please, please fix the name to the right one--Zułów/Zułowo. FeldmarschallGneisenau (talk) 09:03, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:BEBOLD - you can do it. I am busy with other things, and the tone taken by the anon further discentivies me from this. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:03, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can't do it, I'm not extended-confirmed-protected. Hence this extended-confirmed-protected-edit-request FeldmarschallGneisenau (talk) 10:19, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@FeldmarschallGneisenau Fair enough, I've made the change. I've also added a clarification per cited source ("he was born in the family manor called Zułów close to the Zułowo village"). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:19, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

J.Pilsudski spoke Lithuanian [1].

"Józef Piłsudski" needs thorough copyedit

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I have done some work on the article's "skeleton".

This featured article very badly needs a thoroughgoing copyedit for English usage and style, which I don't now have time to undertake.

Thanks.

Nihil novi (talk) 09:43, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please revert the image in the infobox - extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 February 2024

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Please revert the image in the infobox to the previous.
The current image in the infobox (commons:File:Jozef Pilsudski1 (cropped).jpg added in this revision) was altered using AI software and is likely innacurate. Please revert the change to the infobox, making it use the previous image (commons:File:Józef Piłsudski (-1930).jpg), as can be seen in this older revision.
Current infobox:

{{Infobox officeholder
| honorific_prefix    = [[Marshal (Poland)|Marshal]]
| name                = Józef Piłsudski
| image               = File:Jozef Pilsudski1 (cropped).jpg
| imagesize           = 
| caption             = Józef Piłsudski 
| office2             = [[Chief of State of Poland]]
| term_start2         = 22 November 1918
| term_end2           = 14 December 1922
| primeminister2      = {{Collapsible list|title={{nobold|''See list''}}
| [[Jędrzej Moraczewski]]
| [[Ignacy Jan Paderewski]]
| [[Leopold Skulski]]
| [[Władysław Grabski]]
| [[Wincenty Witos]]
| [[Antoni Ponikowski]]
| [[Artur Śliwiński]]
| [[Julian Nowak]]
}}

Requested edit:

{{Infobox officeholder
| honorific_prefix    = [[Marshal (Poland)|Marshal]]
| name                = Józef Piłsudski
| image               = Józef Piłsudski (-1930).jpg
| imagesize           = 
| caption             = Piłsudski {{circa|1920s}}
| office2             = [[Chief of State of Poland]]
| term_start2         = 22 November 1918
| term_end2           = 14 December 1922
| primeminister2      = {{Collapsible list|title={{nobold|''See list''}}
| [[Jędrzej Moraczewski]]
| [[Ignacy Jan Paderewski]]
| [[Leopold Skulski]]
| [[Władysław Grabski]]
| [[Wincenty Witos]]
| [[Antoni Ponikowski]]
| [[Artur Śliwiński]]
| [[Julian Nowak]]
}}

Alternatively, add another image that doesn't have AI-made changes.
CaradoWindows (talk) 17:30, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done NotAGenious (talk) 09:38, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Prime Minister or President?

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The page for the Second Polish Republic lists him as President, yet here he is referred to as Prime Minister. Which of these is correct? -Emily (PhoenixCaelestis) (talk) 23:19, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Both at different times. Spinney Hill (talk) 08:45, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]