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Notification of discussion involving this article

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Politics/Political parties regarding the inclusion of the party flag in the infobox of this article. The thread is Party flags in infoboxes. Thank you. — Ætoms ^[talk] 23:45, 10 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Russophilia

Shouldn't we insert "Russophilia" into the infobox's ideology section? This party is fully pro-russian, we cannot even say they're neutral. Other wiki pages like the Slovakian party SMER's, are already have it. Heringcápa (talk) 18:05, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this, Baudet and FvD have gone on record as to praising Russia and Vladimir Putin several times over the past few years. AbraxasAbominog (talk) 15:12, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It should be included in body and not on infobox as it is a policy and not a political ideology. Shadow4dark (talk) 07:31, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This would significantly differ from pages like the ones regarding Smer and L'SNS in Slovakia though, I think it's best to be consistent regarding this. AbraxasAbominog (talk) 11:06, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Shadow4dark. Its not their ideology, but a consequence Dajasj (talk) 06:49, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also agreed. Besides, Russophilia is something significantly different from being pro-Putin. Please let's not confuse Putin's policies with the works of Pushkin, Shostakovich and many others. —IJzeren Jan _Uszkiełtu? 16:37, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

position and sources

these following sources should be in historical position instead of current position because the publish date of each one of theme is before the 2020 party split and their publish dates are very close to the publish dates of the sources in historical position.

^[1]^[2]^[3]^[4]^[5]

Pomchi-Inu87 (talk) 07:19, 6 May 2023 (UTC) Pomchi-Inu87 (talk) 07:19, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Fallon, Katy (25 March 2019). "Forum voor Democratie: Why has the Dutch far right surged?". Al Jazeera. Retrieved 26 March 2019.
^ Boztas, Senay (23 March 2019). "Surprise electoral win leaves far-Right populists scrambling to fill seats". The Telegraph. Retrieved 26 March 2019.
^ Schaart, Eline (20 March 2019). "Far-right populists score stunning win in Dutch provincial vote". Politico. Retrieved 26 March 2019.
^ Tierolf, Bas; Drost, Lisanne; van Kapel, Maaike (December 2018). Zevende rapportage racisme, antisemitisme en extreemrechts geweld in Nederland (PDF) (Report) (in Dutch). Verwey-Jonker Instituut. p. 35. ISBN 978-90-5830-912-9. Retrieved 22 April 2019.
^ "Dutch far-right politician supports Trump's action against "left wing extremism"". NL Times.

Pro-Russian politics?

Should pro-Russian be added to ideology? Being openly pro-Russia and Baudet saying things like ""The SMO is the most hopeful thing that happened in my life, a front against the globalists has been opened, I hope Russia wins". They regularly host seminars with Russian politicians and ambassadors. They actively promote Putins agenda in Ukraine.

https://www.metronieuws.nl/in-het-nieuws/binnenland/2022/10/interview-baudet-fantastisch-poetin-bestaat/

https://www.volkskrant.nl/politiek/fvd-congres-barst-van-de-paradoxen-met-twee-anti-feministische-vrouwen-als-hoofdact~bb099dbe/

https://nos.nl/artikel/2465140-russische-connecties-rond-baudet-geen-geheim-meer-toch-een-zorg DyadyaMakhno (talk) 19:08, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[Al_Jazeera-1] Fallon, Katy (25 March 2019). "Forum voor Democratie: Why has the Dutch far right surged?". Al Jazeera. Retrieved 26 March 2019.

[The_Telegraph-2] Boztas, Senay (23 March 2019). "Surprise electoral win leaves far-Right populists scrambling to fill seats". The Telegraph. Retrieved 26 March 2019.

[Politico-3] Schaart, Eline (20 March 2019). "Far-right populists score stunning win in Dutch provincial vote". Politico. Retrieved 26 March 2019.

[report_Verwey-Jonker-4] Tierolf, Bas; Drost, Lisanne; van Kapel, Maaike (December 2018). Zevende rapportage racisme, antisemitisme en extreemrechts geweld in Nederland (PDF) (Report) (in Dutch). Verwey-Jonker Instituut. p. 35. ISBN 978-90-5830-912-9. Retrieved 22 April 2019.

[nltimes.nl-5] "Dutch far-right politician supports Trump's action against "left wing extremism"". NL Times.

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[3]

[4]

[5]

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+== Notification of discussion involving this article ==
-== Political shift in the FvD ==
+[[File:Information icon4.svg|link=|25px|alt=Information icon]] There is currently a discussion at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Politics/Political parties]] regarding the inclusion of the party flag in the infobox of this article.&nbsp;The thread is [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Politics/Political parties#Party flags in infoboxes|Party flags in infoboxes]]. Thank you.<!--Template:Discussion notice--> — [[User:Ætoms|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:black; font-size:105%">Æ'''toms'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Ætoms|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:black">[''talk'']</span>]]</sup> 23:45, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
+== Russophilia ==
-I could see why, seeing its views at the time, the FvD was classified as "right-wing to far-right" about a year ago.  However, seeing recent events (The youth group's statements, Baudet's statements, his re-election as party leader, the exodus from the party from the more moderate elements), I think at this point, it would be fair to file it as simply "far-right."  Here are some articles that file Baudet's party as simply far-right from the past few weeks-months:
-http://dutchnews.nl/news/2020/12/thierry-baudet-wins-popular-vote-to-stay-on-as-leader-of-far-right-fvd/
-https://nltimes.nl/2020/12/04/baudet-back-far-right-fvd-leader-11-days-resigning
-https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2020/12/04/thierry-baudet-blijft-leider-van-het-radicaal-rechtse-forum-voor/
-The party has simply shifted right in the past year and become fully far-right in the past month or two.  If there are articles written in Wikipedia-level outlets recently which describe the FvD's views as something other than far-right or extreme right, then the current description is correct.  However, I don't think those exist because I don't really think the FvD is categorizable as merely right-wing anymore.  <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/47.137.28.170|47.137.28.170]] ([[User talk:47.137.28.170#top|talk]]) 01:33, 6 December 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
-:I mostly agree with the above.--[[User:Astral Leap|Astral Leap]] ([[User talk:Astral Leap|talk]]) 08:37, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
-:: Some of your sources always claims them far right. So i disagree and this is most balanced and neutral stance as per many other sources. [[User:Shadow4dark|Shadow4dark]] ([[User talk:Shadow4dark|talk]]) 06:14, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
-::[https://www.uu.nl/in-de-media/forum-voor-democratie-stelt-media-voor-ingewikkelde-dilemmas This source] classifies FvD as [[fascism|fascist]]. The shift has been clear and strong in the past two years. [[User:Andries|Andries]] ([[User talk:Andries|talk]]) 22:10, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
+Shouldn't we insert "Russophilia" into the infobox's ideology section? This party is fully pro-russian, we cannot even say they're neutral. Other wiki pages like the Slovakian party SMER's, are already have it. [[User:Heringcápa|Heringcápa]] ([[User talk:Heringcápa|talk]]) 18:05, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
-All the sources cited by "right wing" are from 2018/2019 before the shift too the far right. Especially now that JA21, GO and BVNL have left the party practically the only remaining politicians inside of FvD are easily classified as far right. Plus dutch media has started referring too FvD as far right and Dutch politcal scientists are also saying it should be classified as radical right or far right. https://www.nu.nl/politiek/6168990/politicoloog-ziet-forum-voor-democratie-steeds-verder-radicaliseren.html
-I think it's time too classify FvD as simply far right.  [[User:Jax the subhumam|Jax the subhumam]] ([[User talk:Jax the subhumam|talk]]) 19:07, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
-:Change to historical right wing to far right and currently to far right? Similar as this party [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_and_Development_Party_(Turkey)]][[User:Shadow4dark|Shadow4dark]] ([[User talk:Shadow4dark|talk]]) 19:18, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
-Yes that's good.  [[User:Jax the subhumam|Jax the subhumam]] ([[User talk:Jax the subhumam|talk]]) 20:56, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
+:I agree with this, Baudet and FvD have gone on record as to praising Russia and Vladimir Putin several times over the past few years. [[User:AbraxasAbominog|AbraxasAbominog]] ([[User talk:AbraxasAbominog|talk]]) 15:12, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
+::It should be included in body and not on infobox as it is a policy and not a political ideology. [[User:Shadow4dark|Shadow4dark]] ([[User talk:Shadow4dark|talk]]) 07:31, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
+:::This would significantly differ from pages like the ones regarding Smer and L'SNS in Slovakia though, I think it's best to be consistent regarding this. [[User:AbraxasAbominog|AbraxasAbominog]] ([[User talk:AbraxasAbominog|talk]]) 11:06, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
+:::Agree with Shadow4dark. Its not their ideology, but a consequence [[User:Dajasj|Dajasj]] ([[User talk:Dajasj|talk]]) 06:49, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
+::::Also agreed. Besides, Russophilia is something significantly different from being pro-Putin. Please let's not confuse Putin's policies with the works of Pushkin, Shostakovich and many others. &mdash;[[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] [[User talk:IJzeren Jan| <sub style="color: green">''Uszkiełtu?''</sub>]] 16:37, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
-== Footnote 46 ==
+== position and sources ==
+these following sources should be in historical position instead of current position because the publish date of each one of theme is before the [[Forum_for_Democracy#Split-off_parties|2020 party split]] and their publish dates are very close to the publish dates of the sources in historical position.
-In [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Forum_for_Democracy&oldid=1073780191 this version], footnote 46 states the name of the author as 'Joseef Wanders'. The text in the article says 'Joseef Eanders'. I do not have access to 'Het Financieele Dagblad', so I can not check which one is a typo. At least one of the names is a type, and 'Wanders' seems more likely than 'Eanders'. But both names are not shown to me in a Google search. Who can check this out? Thanks, [[User:RonnieV|RonnieV]] ([[User talk:RonnieV|talk]]) 00:16, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
+<ref name="Al Jazeera">{{cite news |last1=Fallon |first1=Katy |title=Forum voor Democratie: Why has the Dutch far right surged? |url=https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/forum-voor-democratie-dutch-surged-190324184308868.html |access-date=26 March 2019 |work=Al Jazeera |date=25 March 2019}}</ref><ref name="The Telegraph">{{cite news |last1=Boztas |first1=Senay |title=Surprise electoral win leaves far-Right populists scrambling to fill seats |url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/03/23/surprise-electoral-win-leaves-far-right-populists-scrambling/ |access-date=26 March 2019 |work=The Telegraph |date=23 March 2019}}</ref><ref name="Politico">{{cite news |last1=Schaart |first1=Eline |title=Far-right populists score stunning win in Dutch provincial vote |url=https://www.politico.eu/article/mark-rutte-to-lose-senate-majority-after-dutch-local-elections/ |access-date=26 March 2019 |work=Politico |date=20 March 2019}}</ref><ref name="report Verwey-Jonker">{{cite report |url=https://www.verwey-jonker.nl/doc/2018/118004_Zevende_rapportage_racisme_antisemitisme_extreemrechts_geweld.pdf |title=Zevende rapportage racisme, antisemitisme en extreemrechts geweld in Nederland |last1=Tierolf |first1=Bas |last2=Drost |first2=Lisanne |date=December 2018 |publisher=Verwey-Jonker Instituut |page=35 |language=nl-NL |isbn=978-90-5830-912-9 |last3=van Kapel |first3=Maaike |access-date=22 April 2019}}</ref><ref name="nltimes.nl">{{Cite web|url=https://nltimes.nl/2020/06/01/dutch-far-right-politician-supports-trumps-action-left-wing-extremism|title=Dutch far-right politician supports Trump's action against "left wing extremism"|website=NL Times}}</ref>
-== Russophilia? ==
-The evidence given to label Forum for Democracy as russophile is very thin. There are only 2 newspaper articles cited, both are from march 2022 (7th and 11th of march) and as the titles say: their leader feels ideologically related to Putin, and the other article: the leader doesn't see Putin as the agressor in the Ukraine war/'special operations'. How does that make this political party russophile?
+[[User:Pomchi-Inu87|Pomchi-Inu87]] ([[User talk:Pomchi-Inu87|talk]]) 07:19, 6 May 2023 (UTC) [[User:Pomchi-Inu87|Pomchi-Inu87]] ([[User talk:Pomchi-Inu87|talk]]) 07:19, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
+{{reflist-talk}}
-The definition given on this very website:
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russophilia
+== Pro-Russian politics? ==
-"Russophilia (literally love of Russia or Russians) is admiration and fondness of Russia (including the era of the Soviet Union and/or the Russian Empire), Russian history and Russian culture."
+Should pro-Russian be added to ideology? Being openly pro-Russia and Baudet saying things like ""The SMO is the most hopeful thing that happened in my life, a front against the globalists has been opened, I hope Russia wins". They regularly host seminars with Russian politicians and ambassadors. They actively promote Putins agenda in Ukraine.
-I don´t see anything about feeling ideologically related to the current leader of the Russian Federation being included in that definition, nor do I see anything in that definition about seeing Russia as the agressor or not in a war/conflict (which would be a politicisation of the definition of russophilia and of the article about Forum for Democracy). Let's keep it as objective as possible.
+https://www.metronieuws.nl/in-het-nieuws/binnenland/2022/10/interview-baudet-fantastisch-poetin-bestaat/
-In summary:
-Feeling ideologically related to Putin ≠ Russophilia.
-Not seeing Putin as aggressor in Ukraine war ≠ Russophilia.
-Politics (current) ≠ Russian people, history, culture.
-Therefore: Forum for Democracy is not russophile and this label should be deleted.  <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/80.112.184.27|80.112.184.27]] ([[User talk:80.112.184.27#top|talk]]) 21:55, 3 April 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
+https://www.volkskrant.nl/politiek/fvd-congres-barst-van-de-paradoxen-met-twee-anti-feministische-vrouwen-als-hoofdact~bb099dbe/
-:Agreed, I have removed it. [[User:Dajasj|Dajasj]] ([[User talk:Dajasj|talk]]) 09:08, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
-== Membership numbers ==
+https://nos.nl/artikel/2465140-russische-connecties-rond-baudet-geen-geheim-meer-toch-een-zorg [[User:DyadyaMakhno|DyadyaMakhno]] ([[User talk:DyadyaMakhno|talk]]) 19:08, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
-Hi {{ping|Melchior Philips}} the critical statement is not really accurate anymore, as the 2021' numbers were verified. See [https://dnpp.nl/nieuws/2021/dnpp/persltper01012022 this statement]. So it should be rewritten, but can perhaps be best left out because the previous numbers are in line with the 2021 numbers. [[User:Dajasj|Dajasj]] ([[User talk:Dajasj|talk]]) 19:32, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
-: Hi {{ping|Dajasj}}, the amount of members per party is not verified by the DNPP, or any other organisation. The numbers are declared by the political parties and then reported without external verification. The FvD claims a sustained growth, the largest of any party, that is incongruent with their political results, as pointed out by the sources provided. Since reliable secondary literature exists that is sceptical about the FvD's membership numbers, I believe it can stay with the current wording. [[User:Melchior Philips|Melchior Philips]] ([[User talk:Melchior Philips|talk]]) 15:30, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
-::Well, the statement mentions that an accountant has verified the membership. I would argue that at least "in the past" should be added to the current wording, as that reflects the current assesment. [[User:Dajasj|Dajasj]] ([[User talk:Dajasj|talk]]) 15:47, 5 April 2022 (UTC)