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== 7.475 Tons Is A Bit Heavy For A Light Jet ==
===Inventor?===


In the section about the Advantages, specifically the second paragraph starting with "Light Jet Aircraft...", the way it's worded makes it seem like the MQ-4 is considered a "light jet." may I suggest editing it and wording it better? (I can if needed) thx in advance <3 [[User:Taffy boeing b 17|Taffy boeing b 17]] ([[User talk:Taffy boeing b 17|talk]]) 20:23, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
Did Rudlicki invent the V-tail, or did [[Clyde Vernon Cessna]]? [[User:59.167.55.80|59.167.55.80]] 07:37, 6 May 2007 (UTC)Dave


:I have already done it. like 3 more words (I can't count) let me know if it looks better (or worse). cheers <3 [[User:Taffy boeing b 17|Taffy boeing b 17]] ([[User talk:Taffy boeing b 17|talk]]) 17:24, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
== [[pelikan tail]]? ==


== Goblin Tail ==
Has anyone heard of the idea of moving the vee halves to either side of a lifting body? Is that a distinct idea? Please comment at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pelikan tail]]. [[User:Potatoswatter|Potatoswatter]] ([[User talk:Potatoswatter|talk]]) 23:38, 4 May 2008 (UTC)


The [[McDonnell XF-85 Goblin]] has a very strange tail, in order to provide the **questionable** stability it has. its a 6 point tail, but it does have somewhat of a V-tail (but lacks ruddervators), would it count as a V-tail? [[User:Taffy boeing b 17|Taffy boeing b 17]] ([[User talk:Taffy boeing b 17|talk]]) 16:20, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
== Inversion ==
Does an inverted V tail have particular advantages, or is it just about lifting the tail boom higher on these small drones? [[User:Andy Dingley|Andy Dingley]] ([[User talk:Andy Dingley|talk]]) 11:27, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

:The inverted V-tail hasn't just been used on drones, see [[Ultraflight Lazair]] for example. There probably should be some discussion here on the advantages of the inverted V-tail, if a suitable [[WP:V|reference]] can be found. In most applications it seems to be mounted inverted to use the tips as landing gear (as in the Lazair) or to keep a pusher prop off the ground. - [[User:Ahunt|Ahunt]] ([[User talk:Ahunt|talk]]) 11:37, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

:Interesting one - I haven't seen an analysis but suspect an inverted v-tail actually has a small drag and control authority disadvantage compared to a conventional v-tail - it's located closer to the wing's trailing edge turbulence and eddies resulting from such airflow interacting with the fuselage. Also, it would be further away from the propwash - especially in slow flight at high angles of attack - so is likely to have less control effectiveness. I'll have a poke around and see if there's any deeper analysis. [[User:Ozzielinden|Ozzielinden]] ([[User talk:Ozzielinden|talk]]) 14:08, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

::A long time ago I had read a note by the Lazair's designer, Dale Kramer, claiming that the inverted V-tail was the most efficient tail for about a half a dozen reasons. I will try to see if I can find the article. In the case of the Lazair, which is a highwing aircraft the tail is actually in pretty clean air at cruise speed. I do know that when I flew Lazairs, that as you entered ground effect the inverted V-tail created a nose-down pitching moment that prevented over-flaring and the risk of a stall near the ground. Of course it could also cause you to pitch into the ground, but the effect was not pronounced and at a 35 mph approach speed, not a problem. - [[User:Ahunt|Ahunt]] ([[User talk:Ahunt|talk]]) 15:08, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

== Dubious Claim for Drag Advantage ==

There is a statement made in the "advantages" section that a V tail is inherently less draggy and lighter than a conventional tail arrangement. Given that 99% of the world's aircraft DONT use V tails, this is a statement that requires some justification, unless one is prepared to assume that every major aircraft manufacturer in the world is stubbornly, stupidly, using a less efficient configuration.... (Personally, I think it's an untrue assertion) [[User:MadScot|MadScot]] ([[User talk:MadScot|talk]]) 21:40, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

It has been claimed that less drag is "trivially mundane" becauise there is 2/3 the tail hence 2/3 the drag. This is incorrect, because it assumes that each of the two surfaces ona V tail would be the same size as ona conventional tail. But in fact in order to get the same stabilising effect you need to make the V tail surfaces larger, and if you do the maths you'll find that in fact they get larger by ... 50%. So, two surfaces, overall 50% bigger, or 3 surfaces the original size = same drag/weight, to the first order. i want to see an actual reference to back up the unsupported claim in the article, and I'm putting back the tag. [[User:MadScot|MadScot]] ([[User talk:MadScot|talk]]) 00:14, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

== "Dubious" claim for Drag Advantage; continued ==

The question of drag is very interesting - I've been toying with the idea to build a model to simulate the drag from a V-Tail compared to a conventional T-Tail as this issue is less than clear-cut. In my view, the surface drag should indeed be similar, however, I suspect the induced drag, the vortice drag (from more surfaces connecting to the fuselage and creating interesting airflow interactions) and, most significantly, the aerofoil-tip drag (caused by wingtip vortices) will be grater in a T-Tail compared to V-Tail, simply due to the larger number of surfaces.

I don't have the appropriate software to efficiently model complex airflows (unless someone knows of an easy way to tweak Mathematica...) so if anyone's an aerodynamics student with access to a wind tunnel modeller, I'd be happy to help! [[User:Ozzielinden|Ozzielinden]] ([[User talk:Ozzielinden|talk]]) 19:21, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

According to my old textbook (*Aircraft Design: A Conceptual Approach, 3ed.* by Daniel P. Raymer, 1999, p. 78) the V-tail does require approximately the same wetted area as a comparable T-tail, but still manifests reduced total drag from reduced interference drag, due to fewer intersecting surfaces; the net effect on weight is unclear, but the complexity of control & stability increases (inverted V-tails, such as on the Predator, actually have stability advantages, although the control complexity is not reduced). [[User:Sketch051|Sketch051]] ([[User talk:Sketch051|talk]]) 21:07, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

== Yaw -> roll? ==
It seems to me that "side rudder" would introduce a roll-force in the "outwards" direction?
One control surface goes down and introduces momentum to roll which is enhanced by the other control surface going up at the other side and also producing momentum in the same direction.
Eh? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/83.251.57.154|83.251.57.154]] ([[User talk:83.251.57.154|talk]]) 19:31, 7 September 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== About Coanda-1910 and related work to "V"-Tail ==

Translation from the French article from [http://books.google.com/books?id=ZFfmAAAAMAAJ&q=Rudlicki++Coanda&dq=Rudlicki++Coanda&hl=en&ei=T9gqTZ2bJsPsOZXxtecC&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA 1935], "L'Aeronautique" page 333, ''Dans le domaine des recherches et expériences, l'ingénieur Herbemont s'est attaché à l'élude d'un empennage en V, évolution logique de l'empennage classique puisqu'il remplace les éléments composants à actions verticales et horizontales par leurs résultantes. Un empennage de ce type avait été proposé il ya deux ou trois ans par l'ingénieur polonais Rudlicki. Antérieurement, en 191 1, Coanda avait présenté au Concours militaire de Reims un empennage en X.'' - ''In the field of research and experimentation, engineer Herbemont focused on the study of a V-tail, a logical evolution of the classic empennage as it replaces the classic elements composing the vertical and horizontal actions by their resultant. A tail of this kind had been proposed two or three years ago by the Polish engineer Rudlicki. Previously, in 1911, Coanda presented at the Reims military contest a X tail.''
As well I add here a quote from Antoniu's [http://www.cartula.ro/forum/Monografia-Henri-COANDA-t7435.html monograph] from 2010 "Henri Coandă and his technical work during 1906–1918". Bucharest: Editura Anima. ISBN 978-973-7729-61-3.
'' '''Bristol-Coanda canard 1912''' Faithful to his beliefs that a new design had to be based on new and advanced concepts, Henri Coanda completed in 1912 a very interesting project that included many innovation in the field. This was a monoplane provided with a wing place in tandem with the main wing (canard), a solution used generally today on all transport aircraft. Based on the type of cockpit, this could be build in two versions: two-seat or single-seat trainer. To reduce the looses and improve aerodynamics, he placed the engine inside the fuselage and the propeller behind the wing, but in front of the empennage placed in a "V" with a 90-degree openeing. The forward wing gave stability to the machine by increasing the lift generated by the main wing at low speeds, a fact proven by tests in the wind tunnel in the laboratories of his friend Eiffel. ....
In 1913, when the model was sent to Gustave Eiffel, Coanda gave up the cross-shaped empennage, using instead two planes placed at 90 degrees from each other, a modification also illustrated in the drawing. The drawing and diagram of measurements was published in the periodical atlas published by Gustave Eiffel: Nouvelles recherches sur la résistance de l'air et l'aviation (faites au laboratoriee d'Auteuil) [New Research Realting to Air Resistance and Aviation (Carried Out in the Auteuil Labs)], Paris, 1914.'' Page 124-125 from Antoniu's monograph. [[File:Coanda-1912.jpg|thumb|left|.<ref name="CoandaMonograph2010"/>]]
Next is a the picture with the aircraft with the "V" tail and the angles and measurements
taken from the pages 115-117 in Eiffel's [http://books.google.com/books?ei=0EorTbj8E5GcOu_j9awC&ct=result&id=PHwgAAAAMAAJ&dq=%22%22nouvelles+recherches+sur+la+resistance+de+l%27air+et+l%27aviation%22+%22monoplan+bristol%22&q=Bristol#search_anchor book] entitled "Modele au 1/40 du monoplan Bristol". ( Sorry for the quality :( If you find it relevant I can try to get a better scanning. As well I don't know anything about the copyrights. )
As well a [http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1911/1911%20-%200942.html contemporary photograph in ''Flight'' magazine of the 1911 aircraft at Rheims].
Please join the [[Talk:Coandă-1910]] as well. --[[User:Lsorin|Lsorin]] ([[User talk:Lsorin|talk]]) 12:23, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

:Thanks for the info here. It is not clear to me whether the V-tailed 1912 design was ever built of remained at a model stage. - [[User:Ahunt|Ahunt]] ([[User talk:Ahunt|talk]]) 12:55, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 16:20, 31 October 2024

7.475 Tons Is A Bit Heavy For A Light Jet

[edit]

In the section about the Advantages, specifically the second paragraph starting with "Light Jet Aircraft...", the way it's worded makes it seem like the MQ-4 is considered a "light jet." may I suggest editing it and wording it better? (I can if needed) thx in advance <3 Taffy boeing b 17 (talk) 20:23, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have already done it. like 3 more words (I can't count) let me know if it looks better (or worse). cheers <3 Taffy boeing b 17 (talk) 17:24, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Goblin Tail

[edit]

The McDonnell XF-85 Goblin has a very strange tail, in order to provide the **questionable** stability it has. its a 6 point tail, but it does have somewhat of a V-tail (but lacks ruddervators), would it count as a V-tail? Taffy boeing b 17 (talk) 16:20, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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