Talk:Macedonia (region)

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there's no such country as republic of macedonia

there's no such country as republic of macedonia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.176.141.43 (talk) 02:55, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 August 2022

89.19.89.11 (talk) 16:49, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Philip II was an impressive military man in his own right. He turned Macedonia (a region on the northern part of the Greek peninsula) into a force to be reckoned with, and he fantasized about conquering the massive Persian Empire. There are no Byzantine records of "Sklaviniai" after 836/837 as they were absorbed into the expanding First Bulgarian Empire. Slavic influence in the region strengthened along with the rise of this state, which incorporated parts of the region to its domain in 837. In the early 860s Saints Cyril and Methodius, two Byzantine Greek brothers from Thessaloniki, created the first Slavic Glagolitic alphabet in which the Old Church Slavonic language was first transcribed, and are thus commonly referred to as the apostles of the Slavic world. Their cultural heritage was acquired and developed in medieval Bulgaria, where after 885 the region of Ohrid (present-day Republic of North Macedonia) became a significant ecclesiastical center with the nomination of the Saint Clement of Ohrid for "first archbishop in Bulgarian language" with residence in this region. In conjunction with another disciple of Saints Cyril and Methodius, Saint Naum, Clement created a flourishing Slavic cultural center around Ohrid, where pupils were taught theology in the Old Church Slavonic language and the Glagolitic and Cyrillic script at what is now called Ohrid Literary School. The Bulgarian-Byzantine boundary in the beginning of 10th century passed approximately 20 km (12 mi) north of Thessaloniki according to the inscription of Narash. According to the Byzantine author John Kaminiates, at that time the neighbouring settlements around Thessaloniki were inhabited by "Scythians" (Bulgarians) and the Slavic tribes of Drugubites and Sagudates, in addition to Greeks.

At the end of the 10th century, what is now the Republic of North Macedonia became the political and cultural heartland of the First Bulgarian Empire, after Byzantine emperors John I Tzimiskes conquered the eastern part of the Bulgarian state during the Rus'–Byzantine War of 970–971. The Bulgarian capital Preslav and the Bulgarian Tsar Boris II were captured, and with the deposition of the Bulgarian regalia in the Hagia Sophia, Bulgaria was officially annexed to Byzantium. A new capital was established at Ohrid, which also became the seat of the Bulgarian Patriarchate. A new dynasty, that of the Comitopuli under Tsar Samuil and his successors, continued resistance against the Byzantines for several more decades, before also succumbing in 1018. The western part of Bulgaria including Macedonia was incorporated into the Byzantine Empire as the province of Bulgaria (Theme of Bulgaria) and the Bulgarian Patriarchate was reduced in rank to an Archbishopric.

Intermittent Bulgarian uprisings continued to occur, often with the support of the Serbian princedoms to the north. Any temporary independence that might have been gained was usually crushed swiftly by the Byzantines. It was also marked by periods of war between the Normans and Byzantium. The Normans launched offensives from their lands acquired in southern Italy, and temporarily gained rule over small areas in the northwestern coast.

At the end of the 12th century, some northern parts of Macedonia were temporarily conquered by Stefan Nemanja of Serbia. In the 13th century, following the Fourth Crusade, Macedonia was disputed among Byzantine Greeks, Latin crusaders of the short-lived Kingdom of Thessalonica, and the revived Bulgarian state. Most of southern Macedonia was secured by the Despotate of Epirus and then by the Empire of Nicaea, while the north was ruled by Bulgaria

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:53, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 February 2023

Hello, Wikipedia. I want to correct some facts in this article, that are not true. That's why i request for an Edit allowance Mr3xc (talk) 17:58, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

@Mr3xc: You have misunderstood article protection. You will get autoconfirmed rights after 4 days on your account if you have made at least 10 edits. This will allow you to edit semi-protected articles such as this one. In the meantime, please describe the errors you have seen in the article so that another user can correct them. small jars tc 23:03, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Lemonaka (talk) 10:37, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Pov map

User:StephenMacky1 the map here is of Konstantinos Paparigopoulos not of Kiepert. See here summary 77.49.98.69 (talk) 01:57, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

All right. Tagging Βατο as the one who made the changes on Commons and Greek Rebel, who added the map in this article. If you all can, discuss the issue here. StephenMacky1 (talk) 08:54, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

@StephenMacky1: thanks for the tag, User:Greek Rebel just made an inaccurate POV addition: it is not by Kiepert, and it is a hugely erroneous and problematic old map produced by the 19th century 'map mania'. – Βατο (talk) 09:34, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

@StephenMacky1, @Βατο, I thought it was Kiepert, I did not saw that the map was not made by him. Greek Rebel (talk) 11:37, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Ιn fact, it is Kiepert's only one that was made under the insistent suggestions of Paparrigopoulos and expresses the Greek view on the subject.

"...Paparrigopoulos' pressure on Kiepert, as documented in their correspondence, resulted in the relatively favourable for Greece 'ethnocratic' map entitled Table of Greek Countries with the Adjacent Albanian, Slavic and Romanian Countries, which also depicts Cyprus and will be published in Berlin in 1878. This map is in fact a revision of a slightly earlier 'ethnographic' map with an opposite content for Greek interests...." https://cartography.web.auth.gr/Livieratos/EL/Livieratos_Volos_1881.pdf pages 8-9 (el) 77.49.98.69 (talk) 18:26, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

It is not by Kiepert, the coloring of the map was made by Greek scholar Constantine Paparrigopoulos, who falsely attributed it to Kiepert.

Yosmaoǧlu, I. K. (2010). "Constructing national identity in Ottoman Macedonia". In Zartman, I. William (ed.). Understanding Life in the Borderlands: Boundaries in Depth and in Motion. University of Georgia Press. ISBN 9780820336145. pp. 177–178:

Paparrigopoulos's talent in manipulating ethnographic maps surpassed that of Gennadius because he did not only deploy that map as an apparatus of power, a visual tool with which the Greek nation's rights over an expanse Pf territory was asserted. He also highlighted the subjectivity of the whole pro- cess and questioned the authority of ethnographical maps in principle. The lit-eral issue of authorship was the most important symbolic element of the map, communicating to the public the scientific authority embodied in the geogra- pher's name. Gennadius had claimed that authority by remaining anonymous and giving the impression that the map was prepared by a British author.20 By contrast, Paparrigopoulos usurped the already existing and unquestionable au- thority of Kiepert by making sure that his name was the only one to be printed on the map and the text that accompanied it (written, however, by Paparri- gopoulos himself), deliberately misleading the reader. The result was so con-vincing that even the otherwise meticulous and thorough Wilkinson did not doubt its authenticity when he wrote: "In the explanation accompanying the map Kiepert outlined the difficulties inherent in the production of an eth-nographic map and he maintained that the use of such maps for drawing up political boundaries was a malpractice which no geographer ought to counte-nance" (1951, 75)'.

Heraclides, Alexis (2020). The Macedonian Question and the Macedonians: A History. Routledge Histories of Central and Eastern Europe. Routledge. ISBN 9781000289404. p. 22:

Greek 'map mania'17 persisted with a more ambitious scheme. The Greek for- eign ministry engaged the national historian, Paparrigopoulos, who was then at the apex of his prestige in Greece and in European academic circles. He was called upon 'to convince the European community of the righteousness of the Greek claims with scientific arguments to the degree possible bearing on real- ity'. 18 Paparrigopoulos came up with a device intended to bypass the well-known hurdle (known to the Greek Government and elite) of the Greeks not being the majority in Macedonia. He dubbed it an 'ethnocentric map' that was to present the future likely limits of the Balkan states, the main criterion being what was called the 'excelling race', that is which nation was considered prevailing culturally, educationally and economically in the region. To see this through, Paparrigopou-los corresponded repeatedly with Kiepert and met him at least twice in Berlin. 19 The outcome was indeed an ethnocentric map, which presented a future Greek state taking almost the whole of Macedonia and half the lands inhabited by the Albanians on the Adriatic coast.20 A reluctant Kiepert seemed to go along and the map produced in 1878 bears his name, but a bit later he disclaimed it (with a letter made public). And in 1882, Kiepert produced another map, in which the Greek presence is very limited and the majority only in Chalkidiki, but he compensated by showing overwhelming Greek presence in the southern Albanian inhabited ter- ritory (which was hardly the case).21

It cannot have been otherwise, because this is one of the worst maps published during the 19th century 'map mania', and Kiepert would not have lost his reputation publishing such work as its author.

Nevertheless, adding such an erroneous map obviously for POV pushing purposes is not an improvement to the article, and we should avoid wasting our time for such things. – Βατο (talk) 21:28, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

O.k.! Thank you for the clarification!! ❤ 77.49.98.69 (talk) 00:57, 5 November 2024 (UTC)