Jump to content

Talk:Occitan language: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous edit
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
 
(37 intermediate revisions by 9 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
{{talk header}}
{{talk header}}
{{Vital article|class=B|level=5|topic=Society}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|vital=yes|1=
{{WikiProject France|importance=High}}
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1=
{{WikiProject France|class=B|importance=High}}
{{WikiProject Spain|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Spain|class=B|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Languages|importance=low}}
}}
{{WP Languages|class=B|importance=low}}}}
{{User:MiszaBot/config

|archiveheader = {{aan}}
== Occitan and Catalan, again ==
|maxarchivesize = 100K

|counter = 2
I think all discussions of the similarities and differences between Occitan and Catalan should be moved to a separate article. One comes to [[Occitan language]] to see a quick summary, not a huge discussion involving overly specific details about a totally different language. Anon IP, you should be ashamed for trying to turn this into another Catalan article. [[User:Crculver|CRCulver]] 11:56, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
|minthreadsleft = 10

|algo = old(730d)
:I agree.
|archive = Talk:Occitan language/Archive %(counter)d

}}
I disagree. While there could be a specific section for it, you just cannot discuss Catalan and Occitan without addressing their similarities and dissimilarities. [[User:FilipeS|FilipeS]] ([[User talk:FilipeS|talk]]) 18:04, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
{{Broken anchors|links=

* <nowiki>[[Demographics of France#Historical population of metropolitan France|1860]]</nowiki> The anchor (#Historical population of metropolitan France) has been [[Special:Diff/709699648|deleted by other users]] before. <!-- {"title":"Historical population of metropolitan France","appear":{"revid":6013721,"parentid":6013698,"timestamp":"2004-09-20T14:32:34Z","removed_section_titles":[],"added_section_titles":["Historical population of metropolitan France"]},"disappear":{"revid":709699648,"parentid":709698400,"timestamp":"2016-03-12T14:38:03Z","removed_section_titles":["Historical population of metropolitan France","Projections"],"added_section_titles":["Historical population figures","Population projections"]}} -->
== Gallo-Romance or Ibero-Romance? ==
}}

hi,

the infobox in the article says ''Gallo-Romance'' and the list in [[Gallo-Iberian languages]] says ''Ibero-Romance''. one of them must be wrong but i have no idea which one. --[[User:ArinArin|ArinArin]] 11:34, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

:: it's a point of contention - gallo-romance, ibero-romance, or neither? i think wikipedia should avoid language-tree classifications altogether - at the end of the day, they are all more or less arbitrary... [[User:Kieron a m|kieron]] 10:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

:[[:Category:Catalan language]] is in both, as it's transitional between both. And Occitan is transitional between Catalan and other Gallo-Romance. If there is truly a debate, I don't necessarily see a problem of classifying it as both at least for the sake of categorization. - [[User:Gilgamesh|Gilgamesh]] 17:57, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

==Requested Move (2006)==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:polltop -->
:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the {{{type|proposal}}}. <span style="color:red;">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

{{{result|The result of the debate was}}} '''no move'''. -- '''[[User:Tariqabjotu|<span style="color:black;">tariq</span><span style="color:gray;">abjotu</span>]]''' <small>(joturner)</small> 01:37, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
===Requested move (expired)===
* [[Occitan language]] → '''[[Occitan]]''' … ''Rationale'': An article about a language should not have "language" in the title unless it is meant to disambiguate … ''Please share your opinion at'' [[Talk:Occitan language]]. — [[User:Dissident|Dissident]] ([[User talk:Dissident|Talk]]) 17:28, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
===Survey===
:''Add *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''' followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ''<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>
*'''Strong oppose'''. Current name follows [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (languages)]] so it should not be moved. [[User:Vegaswikian|Vegaswikian]] 22:36, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
*'''Strong oppose'''. I can't believe this is still an issue for some editors. Wikipedia standardized on "X language" years ago now. [[User:Crculver|CRCulver]] 22:44, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''', per Crculver & Vegaswikian. '''[[User:Calgacus|Calgacus]] (''[[User talk:Calgacus|ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ]]'')''' 23:47, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
*'''Strongly oppose''' - Occitan can refer to occitan regions, occitan peoples, etc., and there could well be articles on this in the future. Also agree with Crculver & Vegaswikian.[[User:Kieron a m|kieron]] 14:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Every language should be named "XXX language" unless there is some compelling reason (and I know of none.) -[[User:Koavf|Justin (koavf)]]·[[User talk:Koavf|T]]·[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]·[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]] 20:57, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

===Discussion===
:''Add any additional comments''
Hm, I prefer ''Occitan language'' but that's not how I read the naming convention. There isn't a collision with ''Occitan people'' or whatnot in this case. --[[User:Dhartung|Dhartung]] | [[User talk:Dhartung|Talk]] 03:03, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

: There ''could'' be an article "Occitan people", if one wanted to talk about the shared culture and history of the speakers of Occitan. FWIW, my Occitan textbook, ''L'occitan sans peine'' by Assimil, talks about ''occitans'' all the time. [[User:Crculver|CRCulver]] 03:09, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

::Then why isn't [[Occitan]] a disambiguation page rather than a redirect? --[[User:Ptcamn|Ptcamn]] 21:21, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

:::Simply because those other articles haven't been written yet. The fact remains that 'Occitan' does not refer exclusively to a language (as does, for example, [[Hindi]]), but can be used to refer to a people, a region, a style of architecture, a literary tradition, etc. etc., and so the article 'Occitan' should be left clear so it might be used as a disambiguation page in the future.[[User:Kieron a m|kieron]] 22:35, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <span style="color:red;">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:pollbottom -->

== Concerning the move ==

The only thing that could be considered a valid argument against a move to [[Occitan]] above is that there could be an article called [[Occitan people]]. However, I question the validity of such an article. Please show us acknowledged sources in English that actually refer to "Occitans" that aren't simply referring to the speakers of the language, for whom we ''never'' stard separate articles. I also doubt that all Occitan speakers in Spain, France and Italy consider their ethnicity to be "Occitan" rather than being nationals of the respective countries or belonging to some other minority.

The argument that "Occitan" as an adjective may refer to a lot of things is also irrelevant, since neither [[Occitan cuisine]] nor [[Occitan literature]] can be called just "Occitan". For a parallel see [[Latin]], [[Latin alphabet]], [[Latin literature]], etc. The naming convention is very clear about this for a long time, I might add. The usage of a disambiguator is applicable only if there's a need for it.

[[User:Peter Isotalo|Peter]] <sup>[[User talk:Peter Isotalo|Isotalo]]</sup> 14:04, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

:Could I get some responsens to this comment? All of the votes above are based on false premises, especially the ones citing the naming convention. The "language" in language article titles hasn't been considered mandatory for at least a year. And since [[Occitan people]] doesn't seem to be appearing any time soon, we shouldn't be using uncalled-for disambiguators. If no comments are forthcoming, I'm posting a request at [[Wikipedia:Requested moves#Uncontroversial proposals]].
:[[User:Peter Isotalo|Peter]] <sup>[[User talk:Peter Isotalo|Isotalo]]</sup> 10:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

*'''Support''', as the move would be in accordance with Wikipedia's naming conventions. "Occitan" is a language. To the best of my ample knowledge, the Occitan language is the only thing on this world commonly referred to by "Occitan".[[User:Unoffensive text or character|Unoffensive text or character]] 12:52, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''', French and native scholarship uses the term "occitan" to refer to a speaker of the language. Even in English one could see the need for disambiguation between language and people. [[User:Crculver|CRCulver]] 12:59, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:This is not a vote, so stop trying to turn it into one. If y'all start voting, it will be about taking sides rather than providing good arguments.
:Culver, considering your claims, it's very odd that the [[:oc:Occitan|Occitan]] and [[:fr:Occitan|French Wikipedias]] don't seem to be bothered with keeping a separate article for the "Occitan people". They don't even have disambiguators. Why hasn't someone written this self-evident article here for that matter? And even if the term is used (apparantly sparingly) in French and Occitan, I think it's questionable to automatically assume that a) the term has the same meaning in English and b) that there's an Occitan people that exist as a reasonably well-defined [[ethnic group]]. Like I've pointed out before, we don't keep separate articles just for the speakers of a language. Now, you're the one making unsupported claims, so please back them up with a source that would be more generally applicable and neutral than a textbook in Occitan.
:[[User:Peter Isotalo|Peter]] <sup>[[User talk:Peter Isotalo|Isotalo]]</sup> 19:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

::Personally, though an enthusiast for languages for the past 45 years, somewhat familiar with "languedoc" and "provençale" from past literary studies, and with Catalan from recent study of a sort, I had never heard of an "Occitan language" (or family of languages/dialects), and find it helpful to have the full expression in the title ... especially given that there is considerable linguistic (and political?) debate as to the nature and scope of that language. Had I simply seen the title "Occitan", I'd have likely passed it by, unaware that it was a languge at all. For those not in the field, the expression is not needlessly redundant. [[User:FutharkRed|FutharkRed]] 05:42, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

==Not encyclopedic statement==

"More widely accepted wisdom suggests that as few as half a million proficient speakers remain in France, for example." What the heck is "more widely accepted wisdom" suppposed to mean? The statement should either be supported with a citation, or deleted. Even if it's retained, it needs to be re-worded to more encyclopedic language (e.g., "Several widely accepted sources suggest..."). [[User:4.243.152.88|4.243.152.88]] 05:54, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

==Orthographic norms==
Which one is closer to the orthography of Catalan, the classical orthography of Occitan, or the Mistralian orthography? Th article should explain this. [[User:FilipeS|FilipeS]] 16:04, 26 October 2006 (UTC
:The classical orthography is closer to the Catalan orthography.--[[User:Aubadaurada|Aubadaurada]] 23:41, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

== Gallo-Romance language >>> Occitan language ==

It is certainly more appropriate to classify the Occitan language under the family of Gallo-Romance languages rather than under the family of Ibero-Romance languages. The Occitan language belongs primarily to Southern France. The Occitan language extends to eastern Spain and Western Italy but the areas that interest these countries are minimal.

[[user:ICE77|ICE77]] -- [[User:81.104.129.226|81.104.129.226]] 19:24, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
:This question was already resolved by the linguist Pierre Bec: Occitan is a transition between Gallo-Romance and Ibero-Romance. When you say that "The Occitan language belongs primarily to Southern France", such an argument is ill-conceived. Linguistic classification follows linguistic criteria: state boundaries are uninteresting for linguistic classification.--[[User:Aubadaurada|Aubadaurada]] 22:46, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

If the Occitan language is a transitional language between Gallo-Romance and Ibero-Romance languages then it should be classified under the Gallo-Iberian languages and not under Gallo-Romance and Ibero-Romance at the same time. In [[Gallo-Iberian languages]] it's classified under Ibero-Romance and in [[Occitan language]] is classified under Gallo-Romance. It doesn't make much sense to talk about the same thing and have two separate classifications under two different pages.

[[User:ICE77|ICE77]] -- [[User:81.104.129.226|81.104.129.226]] 22:06, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
:Read Pierre Bec. The only widely accepted set is the [[Romance languages]]. All its subsets (Ibero-Romance, Gallo-Romance, and so on) are controversial and not rigid. Transitional sets are perfectly possible because Romance languages are a continuum.--[[User:Aubadaurada|Aubadaurada]] 13:58, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

=== political vs. linguistic classification ===
Most of the conventional, but still in use, sub-families of romance languages were rather based on political facts than on linguistic study: actually the country in which a language or dialect is mainly spoken used to set its sub-group. Thus the fact that occitan is still often classified as gallo-roman, while catalan is sometimes said ibero-roman.

People can argue for centuries on similarities or differences. The fact remains that cat. & oc. are very close compared to the distance from each of them to any other roman language.

Just to compare, portuguese, galician & spanish (castilian) are usually described as closely related. Actually, studying them shows astonishing similarities in all aspects of the languages -- except for nasal vowels, while they share higher differences with other romance languages. They may be called sister languages and form together an (west-)iberian sub-family. Then, compared to that group, the catalan/occitan pair, or the set of catalan and occitan varieties or dialects, is even (much) closer. There ''are'' differences, such as the occitan -o feminine ending, still they are few compared to the ones between portuguese and castilian. I would call them twin languages, which may be appropriate in respect to history: some signs show that they formed a common set of dialects in the late middle ages, which eventually evolved on separated (political) paths.

Upon the relation between french and occitan, and catalan-occitan forming a bridge between gallo-roman and ibero-roman languages : I don't agree with that. On one side, french, or rather the set of oïl language varieties, form a highly different sub-family, compared to all other romance languages, including romanian. The catalan-occitan group ''may be said'' to form a bridge between '''other''' romance sub-families, excluding french. French is nearly as far to occitan (or catalan) than to italian or castilian. Below how I see the romance family :
<pre>
romance
northern romance/gallo-roman/franco-roman/french/oïl
southern romance
rumanian (2)
italian/official/center & south (2)
northern italian (3)
sarde (& corsican?)
occitan-catalan
ibero-roman (4)
</pre>
(1) long term frankish rule
(2) vowel plural ending
(3) -s plural ending
(4) long term arabic rule
As an axample of typical occitan-catalan feature: they have lost masculine and neutral endings (-o in other southern romance) and very often kept the latin root unchanged. For instance latin 'focus' --> oc-cat 'foc', it. 'fuoco', span. 'fuego', port. 'fogo', rom. 'foc', fr. 'feu' -- think at en. 'focal'.

--[[User:Denispir|Denispir]] ([[User talk:Denispir|talk]]) 09:46, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

== Poitiers ==


Was Poitiou never part of the Aquitaine?[[User:64.134.101.98|64.134.101.98]] 08:54, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

== Destroy 200 Years of Culture ==

<blockquote>''Occitans, as a result of nearly 200 years of conditioned suppression and humiliation …''</blockquote>
I don’t know much about the history of the region, but does this strike anybody else as POV? —[[User talk:Wiki Wikardo|Wiki Wikardo]] 19:00, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree--it should be deleted. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/76.21.148.162|76.21.148.162]] ([[User talk:76.21.148.162|talk]]) 01:22, 6 April 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Categorization ==

Please see [[Talk:Romance languages#Confusion in categories]]. Any input is appreciated. --[[User:Amire80|Amir E. Aharoni]] 12:46, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
:Concerning Occitan, Catalan and the Occitano-Romance subgroup, a response is [[:oc:Occitan#Familhas de lengas|there]].--[[User:Aubadaurada|Aubadaurada]] 13:38, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

==Occitan language in Monaco==
One of the last interests of Aubadaurada is to include [[Monaco]] in the Occitan language aerea. He already tried on WP fr: (and he is tempting on WP it:). His only sources (Bec, Arveiller) tell the exact contrary: nobody speaks Occitan there (except a big mistake, once again, of Ethnologue.com that states that 4,500 people speaks Occitan in Monaco… It is just a big confusion). I do recognize that, between 1860 and 1930' (and perhaps the 40s), few people, mainly immigrants from Nice and Cannes, were Occitan speakers. But there are more Russian, English or Italian speakers in Monaco than Occitan ones…-[[User:Enzino|Enzino]] 14:13, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

It's historicaly impossible that Occitan language arrived to Monaco, because in the coastal area is Ligurian that enters in France no the Occitan in Italy. Some years ago there was an attempt to insert two Liguria villages in the Occitan area.But that was made by some local politicians just to have some funds , that the government gives to areas where there are linguistic minories to protect.
People that can speak Italian and are interested in the case of the ligurian villages that tried to become Occitans can enter to the following link.

http://www.ald-monaco.org/uploads/pages/Langues_Dialectales_de_l_Aire_Latine/L_occitanizzazione_delle_Alpi_liguri_e_il_caso_del_brigasco_in_Quem_Tu_Probe_Meministi_Torino_Centro_Studi_Piemontesi_2009.pdf <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/93.57.253.199|93.57.253.199]] ([[User talk:93.57.253.199#top|talk]]) 23:03, 16 October 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== audio ==

Are there any links to audio files of someone speaking Occitan? Preferably with subtitles in English (or French). Have any feature films been made in the Occitan language? Or are there any Youtube clips? In any event, an audio file would be a useful addition to this article, either as media or as an external link. I tried the link to radio-occitania.com but it does not seem to have streaming audio. --[[User:Cinematical|Cinematical]] ([[User talk:Cinematical|talk]]) 01:34, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Here you go: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0483206/ [[User:Dësbela Ambërbojada|Dësbela Ambërbojada]] ([[User talk:Dësbela Ambërbojada|talk]]) 23:27, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

== Sentence in the Lourdes statue ==

I have changed the sentence that appears in the statue to "Que soy era immaculata councepciou", as it reads in the image.
--[[User:Eleder|Eleder]] ([[User talk:Eleder|talk]]) 14:48, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
:You're wrong. The correct and codified orthography is the former one: "Que soi era Immaculada Concepcion".--[[User:Nil Blau|Nil Blau]] ([[User talk:Nil Blau|talk]]) 22:03, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

== Some small changes in Occitan phonology... ==
Hi, I've made some changes in the transcription of the final unstressed -a. Some people may (/will) disapprove it but actually the usual description (Bec, Coustenoble, the diverse Linguistic Atlas) state that this vowel seems to be a mid-back rounded vowel just like in Spanish and many other languages. Some modern trends think it is an open-mid back vowel however it is really far from sounding just like the -ò- de ''p'''ò'''rta'' for instance.
See you, de còr e d'òc, [[User:Capsot|Capsot]] ([[User talk:Capsot|talk]]) 11:44, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

==Requested move (2008)==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:polltop -->
:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

The result of the proposal was '''no consensus to move'''. [[User:JPG-GR|JPG-GR]] ([[User talk:JPG-GR|talk]]) 17:28, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

[[Occitan language]] → [[Occitan]] — The term "Occitan" does not appear to have any other primary meaning than the language. There's no evidence of an "Occitan people", despite claims in previous move requests. [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (languages)]] states that any term that isn't actually in need of the "language" disambiguator should not use it. I'm hoping we won't repeat the previous polarized reflex-polling, but rather that we weigh conventions, guidelines and the arguments of individual editors to make an informed decision. — [[User:Peter Isotalo|Peter]] <sup>[[User talk:Peter Isotalo|Isotalo]]</sup> 12:35, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

===Survey===
:''Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with'' <code><nowiki>*'''Support'''</nowiki></code> ''or'' <code><nowiki>*'''Oppose'''</nowiki></code>'', then sign your comment with'' <code><nowiki>~~~~</nowiki></code>''. Since [[Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion|polling is not a substitute for discussion]], please explain your reasons, taking into account [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions|Wikipedia's naming conventions]].''

*'''Oppose''' - I see no need for this. It would be a change for change's sake. The current name is not misleading and i find "Occitan language" clearer than "Occitan". Also, a lot of links point to "Occitan language". --[[User:Amire80|Amir E. Aharoni]] ([[User talk:Amire80|talk]]) 12:44, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
::Is this really necessary? The conventions are perfectly clear about this. I feel that your opposition is what's being done for it's own sake. What's the reason for making this article an exception to both common practice and long-standing guidelines? If it hadn't been for the fact that [[Occitan]] was a redirect that had been edited, I would've simply moved the article as a formality instead of going through the whole [[WP:RM]] procedure. [[User:Peter Isotalo|Peter]] <sup>[[User talk:Peter Isotalo|Isotalo]]</sup> 13:11, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
:::Read the previous move proposals, they answer all your questions. --[[User:Amire80|Amir E. Aharoni]] ([[User talk:Amire80|talk]]) 13:18, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
::::They make no sense at all. First people opposed the move because they thought it was against conventions (which it was not) or that it had to be disambiguated from the "Occitan people" (that doesn't exist). Again, why is it so important to make this an exception from the convention? [[User:Peter Isotalo|Peter]] <sup>[[User talk:Peter Isotalo|Isotalo]]</sup> 17:31, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
:::::It is not terribly against the ''letter'' of the convention and it certainly against its ''spirit''. The whole idea of good article naming is to make articles easier to find, read and link to. "Occitan language" is easier to find, read and link to than "Occitan". Count the links to it, for example. Leaving this article at "Occitan language" is hardly an exception from the written convention, but renaming it to "Occitan" is an inconvenient exception from the de facto convention of naming nearly all language articles with the word "language". I'm not saying anything new - the comments at the previous discussion say the same and make a lot of sense. --[[User:Amire80|Amir E. Aharoni]] ([[User talk:Amire80|talk]]) 08:16, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
::::::The spirit of the convention as far as I can tell is to have short, unambiguous titles which are easy to link to. It's even worded in the "in a nutshell"-summary. "Occitan" appears to fulfill both criteria quite nicely. "Occitan language" merely adds one more word without any benefit. I'm quite aware that people are insisting on that an ethnic group called "Occitan people" exists, but no one appears to be able to support it with references. As far as I can tell, it's about as relevant as an "Esperanto people" or "Yiddish people". [[User:Peter Isotalo|Peter]] <sup>[[User talk:Peter Isotalo|Isotalo]]</sup> 12:10, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. There's nothing to disambiguate with, so the "language" bit is superfluous in the title.--[[User:Boffob|Boffob]] ([[User talk:Boffob|talk]]) 17:57, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - I also do not see the need. Also, in spite of the comment above, Occitan could be used in reference to [[Occitania]] and not restricted to just language. [[User:Dionix|Dionix]] ([[User talk:Dionix|talk]]) 20:29, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
**Disambiguations are relevant only to nouns, not adjectives. The term "Occitan" has only one meaning in an encyclopedic context, just like [[Latin]], [[Hindi]], [[Inuktitut]], etc. Moreover, Occitania is an area dependent on the language, not the other way around. The language is far more well-known than the area which defines its extent. [[User:Peter Isotalo|Peter]] <sup>[[User talk:Peter Isotalo|Isotalo]]</sup> 07:43, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
***There are people who will disagree to the statement that it's only a language and not an area. I don't necessarily agree with them, but there is no clear consensus about it. --[[User:Amire80|Amir E. Aharoni]] ([[User talk:Amire80|talk]]) 08:16, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - If that move would be accepted, then when somebody will create for instance [[Occitan people]] it will have to be moved back again. I would suggest to be practical and leave it as it is instead of wasting time with changes back and forth. --[[User:Cnoguera|Carles Noguera]] ([[User talk:Cnoguera|talk]]) 08:12, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
*'''Neutral'''. "Occitan" already redirects here, and that's convenient. But "Occitan" would also be the appropriate adjetival form of [[Occitania]], from which Occitan was formed by [[backformation]]. Perhaps we need a hatnote to Occitania. That would satisfy me and then I would support the move. [[User:Srnec|Srnec]] ([[User talk:Srnec|talk]]) 19:12, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
**Both [[Occitania]] and this article link to each other in the first sentence of the lead. Hatnotes seems a bit excessive. [[User:Peter Isotalo|Peter]] <sup>[[User talk:Peter Isotalo|Isotalo]]</sup> 10:51, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
***I dislike unnecessary hatnotes as much as anybody, but in this case I worry that the adjetival form of Occitania might be taken to be "Occitanian" and the term Occitan thought to only refer to the language. [[User:Srnec|Srnec]] ([[User talk:Srnec|talk]]) 16:19, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - no compelling need; current title is clearer. [[User:Biruitorul|Biruitorul]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Biruitorul|Talk]]</sup></small> 20:12, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

===Discussion===
:''Any additional comments:''

I am not voting in this poll, but in the long linguistic tradition of forcing everything to look like [[Latin]], I guess the proposal makes sense. And if/when someone decides to write an article about the Occitan people, they can call it "[[Occitans]]" (cf. [[Latins]]). And then we can AfD it. [[User:CapnPrep|CapnPrep]] ([[User talk:CapnPrep|talk]]) 12:23, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

It strikes me that several of the articles associated with this one also refer to their subjects as "languages", when they might be more accurately referred to as "dialects". We have [[Aranese language]] and [[Limousin language]], which could be profitably moved to [[Aranese dialect]] and [[Limousin dialect]] (cf. [[Kansai dialect]], [[Kunming dialect]], [[Cumbrian dialect]], etc.). If this ends up moved to the plain title, I suppose [[Provençal]] should remain where it is now. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]][[User talk:Dekimasu|<span style="color:darkgreen; font-size:smaller;">よ!</span>]] 03:28, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
:'''Just a comment''': I read a grammar of Aranese (in Aranese) and a few articles about it, and the tendency is to call it a "language", and to admit at the same time that it is a variety of Gascon Occitan. It is a bit confusing, but nevertheless there are external sources that call it a language, so we should do the same. --[[User:Amire80|Amir E. Aharoni]] ([[User talk:Amire80|talk]]) 21:41, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
::Sources tend to refer to languages with a disambiguator only when it is necessary for clarity. Pretty much the same as is the case here on Wikipedia.
::[[User:Peter Isotalo|Peter]] <sup>[[User talk:Peter Isotalo|Isotalo]]</sup> 06:39, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:pollbottom -->

== English language ==

The word Occitan was entirely new to me.
I found the article very interesting, but directed a bit too much to the specialist, i.e., linguist.
The English on the whole is good, but there are numerous places that show it to be written by a non-English speaker or speakers. I say this from nearly thirty years of experience correcting scientific texts written by non-native speakers.
When I read something that contains what I see as language errors, I become suspicious of whether other parts of the text mean what I think they mean.
[[User:Ami Ralph|Ami Ralph]] ([[User talk:Ami Ralph|talk]]) 01:06, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

== First map on page ==

The first map would be helpful if the surrounding countries are labeled, because otherwise, one would have no idea where the Occitan language is spoken if they looked quickly at the article. The map pictured doesn't give one a sense of area at all.
[[Special:Contributions/74.69.7.20|74.69.7.20]] ([[User talk:74.69.7.20|talk]]) 15:56, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree. The map is only useful if you consult another map at the same time. That's nutty. I thank the person who took the time to make it, but it needs labels! <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/4.237.255.106|4.237.255.106]] ([[User talk:4.237.255.106|talk]]) 08:13, 21 November 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== typo in Gascon sample? ==

''Totas las personas que naishen liuras e egaus en dignitat e en dreit. Que son dotadas de rason e de consciéncia e que'us cau agir enter eras dab un esperit de hrairessa.''

Looks as if the fourth word "que" might be redundant here? [[User:Flapdragon|Flapdragon]] ([[User talk:Flapdragon|talk]]) 16:51, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
:Not at all. This use of ''que'' before a verb is perfectly normal in Gascon Occitan. It indicates an affirmative sentence.--[[User:Nil Blau|Nil Blau]] ([[User talk:Nil Blau|talk]]) 15:58, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

== Tributary, etc. ==

''external influences could have impeded its origin and development, making it only a tributary of standard Latin.''

Huh? I can't figure out what this is trying to say. [[Special:Contributions/72.75.81.72|72.75.81.72]] ([[User talk:72.75.81.72|talk]]) 03:10, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

== Written Occitan is generally understandable by readers who have some knowledge in any other Romance language ==

Where did you find that ? Would you say that "Written Spanish/Italian/French/Portuguese/etc. is generally understandable by readers who have some knowledge in any other Romance language" ?? [[Special:Contributions/87.231.100.108|87.231.100.108]] ([[User talk:87.231.100.108|talk]]) 03:31, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
: I propose to remove this sentence, since it's non sense, agree ? [[Special:Contributions/193.203.192.15|193.203.192.15]] ([[User talk:193.203.192.15|talk]]) 10:45, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
:: Ok I do that, you will correct it if you think I am wrong. [[Special:Contributions/193.203.192.15|193.203.192.15]] ([[User talk:193.203.192.15|talk]]) 13:12, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

== Occitano-Romance linguistic group ==

In [[Occitan language#Occitano-Romance linguistic group|that section]], it states, “Speakers of both languages share early historical, cultural, and amicable heritage”… “Amicable heritage?” Is this a mistranslation from a Gallo-Iberian language, or some usage with which I’m unfamiliar? I’d fix it only I’m not quite sure what they’re getting at. —[[User talk:Wiki Wikardo|Wiki Wikardo]] 06:38, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

==Oil/Oc/Si==
==Oil/Oc/Si==
If this is [[Langues d'oc]] and the other is [[Langues d'oïl]], what is [[Langues de si]] ? [[Special:Contributions/76.66.193.119|76.66.193.119]] ([[User talk:76.66.193.119|talk]])
If this is [[Langues d'oc]] and the other is [[Langues d'oïl]], what is [[Langues de si]] ?[[Special:Contributions/76.66.193.119|76.66.193.119]] ([[User talk:76.66.193.119|talk]]) <!--Template:Undated--><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment added 23:32, 21 July 2010 (UTC)</small>
: Spanish, Italian, etc. --[[User:Jotamar|Jotamar]] ([[User talk:Jotamar|talk]]) 13:44, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
: Spanish, Italian, etc. --[[User:Jotamar|Jotamar]] ([[User talk:Jotamar|talk]]) 13:44, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
::Is there an article about it? [[Special:Contributions/76.66.193.119|76.66.193.119]] ([[User talk:76.66.193.119|talk]]) 09:09, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
::Is there an article about it? [[Special:Contributions/76.66.193.119|76.66.193.119]] ([[User talk:76.66.193.119|talk]]) 09:09, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Line 241: Line 23:


::::Except that there was no language called "Italian" in Dante's day. There were a variety of Romance dialects spoken in Italy. [[User:Funnyhat|Funnyhat]] ([[User talk:Funnyhat|talk]]) 23:53, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
::::Except that there was no language called "Italian" in Dante's day. There were a variety of Romance dialects spoken in Italy. [[User:Funnyhat|Funnyhat]] ([[User talk:Funnyhat|talk]]) 23:53, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

== Addition to Occitan-speaking communities ==
Occitan is thought to be spoken in [[La Serena, Chile]]. A small wave of immigrants from Occitan speaking regions of France, esp. [[Languedoc-Roussillon]], settled there in the late 19th century. The Chilean government sponsored immigration and land sale programs in the subarid Northern and forested Southern halves of the country. Among the 100,000 French immigrants whom came, an estimated 5,000 Occitans live in Chile. A small poetry reading club and an [[A capella]] song-and-music group by descendants of Occitan French settlers are preserving the language in Chile. [[User:Mike D 26|Mike D 26]] ([[User talk:Mike D 26|talk]]) 03:52, 25 January 2011 (UTC)


== Table of linguistic comparisons ==
== Table of linguistic comparisons ==

Comparison with other Romance languages
Comparison with other Romance languages
Common words in Romance languages, with English (a Germanic language) for reference
Common words in Romance languages, with English (a Germanic language) for reference
Line 260: Line 38:
plateam plaça plaça place plaza piasa piazza/platea plaza praça pratza piaţă[59] 'square, plaza'
plateam plaça plaça place plaza piasa piazza/platea plaza praça pratza piaţă[59] 'square, plaza'
pontem pont (pònt) pont pont pònt punt ponte puente ponte ponte punte 'bridge'
pontem pont (pònt) pont pont pònt punt ponte puente ponte ponte punte 'bridge'





Is there any particular reason why the Latin nouns are always in the accusative case? Is this to do with vulgar Latin adaptations?. I think it should be noted in the article as well. [[User:Alexandre8|Alexandre8]] ([[User talk:Alexandre8|talk]]) 19:35, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
Is there any particular reason why the Latin nouns are always in the accusative case? Is this to do with vulgar Latin adaptations?. I think it should be noted in the article as well. [[User:Alexandre8|Alexandre8]] ([[User talk:Alexandre8|talk]]) 19:35, 9 October 2011 (UTC)


== Virgin Mary Statue Pic ==
== Virgin Mary Statue Pic ==

Shouldn't this be turned through 90deg so the Virgin Mary's head is at the yop of the pic?
Shouldn't this be turned through 90deg so the Virgin Mary's head is at the yop of the pic?
[[User:Gonetofrance|Gonetofrance]] ([[User talk:Gonetofrance|talk]]) 09:21, 5 December 2011 (UTC) Gonetofrance 5th Dec 2011
[[User:Gonetofrance|Gonetofrance]] ([[User talk:Gonetofrance|talk]]) 09:21, 5 December 2011 (UTC) Gonetofrance 5th Dec 2011


== Langues d'oc and catalan ==
== Langues d'oc and catalan ==

Langues d'oc, d'oil and de si represent a comparison of Latin languages based on their words for yes. Langues d'oil has its own article, but langues d'oc redirects here. Langues de si or something similar doesn't have an article anywhere (which would include for example, Italian, Portuguese and Spanish).
Langues d'oc, d'oil and de si represent a comparison of Latin languages based on their words for yes. Langues d'oil has its own article, but langues d'oc redirects here. Langues de si or something similar doesn't have an article anywhere (which would include for example, Italian, Portuguese and Spanish).


Obviously this isn't the system used by modern linguists to classify romance languages, but it's given a certain legitimacy by having langues d'oc redirect here.
Obviously this isn't the system used by modern linguists to classify romance languages, but it's given a certain legitimacy by having langues d'oc redirect here.
:Langues d'oc is an invention of an obscure medievist scholar (Jean-Claude Rivière), compromised in helping a revisionnist "historian" (Henri Roques) around 1975. Dante Alighieri coined the words lingua de hoc, lingua de oïl and lingua de si to denominate Occitan (or Langue d'Oc, singular as written by Honnorat and Mistral), French, and Italian (not Spanish or any other: Dante wanted to push Italian as the literary language against Occitan and French). So langues d'oc has no legitimacy. --— [[User:Jfblanc|J. F. B.]] <sup>([[User talk:Jfblanc|me´n parlar]])</sup> 20:38, 8 November 2015 (UTC)


We then end up with a rather absurd situation where and article that talks about how oil languages (primarily french) can be distinguished from oc languages (which then links here) by their word for yes. Then you have an article that halfway down talks as though Catalan and Occitan are arguably one and the same. But Catalan for yes is si, and ''not'' oc. Wouldn't that make Catalan a langue de si?
We then end up with a rather absurd situation where and article that talks about how oil languages (primarily french) can be distinguished from oc languages (which then links here) by their word for yes. Then you have an article that halfway down talks as though Catalan and Occitan are arguably one and the same. But Catalan for yes is si, and ''not'' oc. Wouldn't that make Catalan a langue de si?


Again, this system based on yes is obviously archaic, and whether Catalan is "ibero-romance" "gallo-romance" is contentious in itself. But the current situation is rather strange. Perhaps there should be a separate article discussing the oil, oc, si, classification, and then have references to "langues d'oc" redirect there, rather than here? <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/88.104.35.41|88.104.35.41]] ([[User talk:88.104.35.41|talk]]) 16:10, 8 November 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
Again, this system based on yes is obviously archaic, and whether Catalan is "ibero-romance" "gallo-romance" is contentious in itself. But the current situation is rather strange. Perhaps there should be a separate article discussing the oil, oc, si, classification, and then have references to "langues d'oc" redirect there, rather than here? <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/88.104.35.41|88.104.35.41]] ([[User talk:88.104.35.41|talk]]) 16:10, 8 November 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:"ibero-romance" and "gallo-romance" are very linked to nation-state linguistic nationalism of France and Spain. Modern scholars as P. Bec use occitano-romance to group Occitan and Catalan. --— [[User:Jfblanc|J. F. B.]] <sup>([[User talk:Jfblanc|me´n parlar]])</sup> 20:38, 8 November 2015 (UTC)


:Langues d'oc is an invention of an obscure medievist scholar (Jean-Claude Rivière), compromised in helping a revisionnist "historian" (Henri Roques) around 1975. Dante Alighieri coined the words lingua de hoc, lingua de oïl and lingua de si to denominate Occitan (or Langue d'Oc, singular as written by Honnorat and Mistral), French, and Italian (not Spanish or any other: Dante wanted to push Italian as the literary language against Occitan and French). So langues d'oc has no legitimacy. --— [[User:Jfblanc|J. F. B.]] <sup>([[User talk:Jfblanc|me´n parlar]])</sup> 20:38, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
== External links modified ==
::"ibero-romance" and "gallo-romance" are very linked to nation-state linguistic nationalism of France and Spain. Modern scholars as P. Bec use occitano-romance to group Occitan and Catalan. --— [[User:Jfblanc|J. F. B.]] <sup>([[User talk:Jfblanc|me´n parlar]])</sup> 20:38, 8 November 2015 (UTC)


== New 2020 study of Occitan language L1 speakers ==
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
A new study conducted on behalf of the Office for Occitan in Nouvelle-Aquitaine, Occitania and Spain's Val d'Aran has found that 7% of the population in both French regions (combined population 7.74m) and 62% in the latter (8,000) declare themselves to be Occitan speakers, which would give an L1 population of approximately 540,000 <ref>https://www.ofici-occitan.eu/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/OPLO_Enquete-sociolingusitique-occitan-2020_Resultats.pdf</ref>. That figure excludes any Occitan speakers in Provence, which wasn't included in the survey. [[User:Culloty82|Culloty82]] ([[User talk:Culloty82|talk]]) 20:53, 29 October 2020 (UTC)


{{reflist-talk}}
I have just modified 5 external links on [[Occitan language]]. Please take a moment to review [[special:diff/813095533|my edit]]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added {{tlx|dead link}} tag to http://www.revistadoc.org/file/Linguistica%20occitana%206%20CLO.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130826045656/http://www.parlament-cat.net/porteso/estatut/estatut_angles_100506.pdf to http://www.parlament-cat.net/porteso/estatut/estatut_angles_100506.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120327223934/http://www.osoa.net/Articles/Desaparicion_del_Euskara_por_el_este_y_norte.pdf to http://www.osoa.net/Articles/Desaparicion_del_Euskara_por_el_este_y_norte.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081003112058/http://www.oc-valencia.org/files/autors/El_Pensament_Ultima.pdf to http://www.oc-valencia.org/files/autors/El_Pensament_Ultima.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060709074538/http://www6.gencat.net/llengcat/socio/coneix.htm to http://www6.gencat.net/llengcat/socio/coneix.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060405161054/http://globegate.utm.edu/french/globegate_mirror/occit.html to http://globegate.utm.edu/french/globegate_mirror/occit.html


== Colors of the second map ==
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
The choice of colors for the second map could not be worse. They should contrast as much as possible rather than all be shades of violet or purple. No one is going to take the trouble of trying to match a color on the map with a color in the key.[[User:S. Valkemirer|S. Valkemirer]] ([[User talk:S. Valkemirer|talk]]) 13:13, 3 February 2021 (UTC)


== Māori translation ==
{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}
There's a Māori translation of this page which needs to be linked: https://mi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reo_Occitan [[User:Thomas Norren|Thomas Norren]] ([[User talk:Thomas Norren|talk]]) 08:14, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
:Done. [[User:Largoplazo|Largoplazo]] ([[User talk:Largoplazo|talk]]) 10:50, 21 September 2022 (UTC)


== “minimal Celtic influence” ==
Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 18:58, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
“Occitan dialects are a result of the Latin influence on the language of the southern Gauls“, it is called Gallo-Romance because of this.


<https://minorityrights.org/minorities/occitan-speakers/> [[User:1arkspur|1arkspur]] ([[User talk:1arkspur|talk]]) 00:03, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
== New 2020 study of Occitan language L1 speakers ==


== "Occitan words and their French, Catalan and Spanish cognates" table ==
A new study conducted on behalf of the Office for Occitan in Nouvelle-Aquitaine, Occitania and Spain's Val d'Aran has found that 7% of the population in both French regions (combined population 7.74m) and 62% in the latter (8,000) declare themselves to be Occitan speakers, which would give an L1 population of approximately 540,000 <ref>https://www.ofici-occitan.eu/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/OPLO_Enquete-sociolingusitique-occitan-2020_Resultats.pdf</ref>. That figure excludes any Occitan speakers in Provence, which wasn't included in the survey. [[User:Culloty82|Culloty82]] ([[User talk:Culloty82|talk]]) 20:53, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
This table needs clarification about which Occitan dialect is being referenced. In which dialect is the word for "house" ''maison'' and in which is it ''casa''? It's not clear at the moment. Both are just labeled as "Occitan". [[Special:Contributions/2600:1702:6D0:5160:4DD7:4281:96BE:A259|2600:1702:6D0:5160:4DD7:4281:96BE:A259]] ([[User talk:2600:1702:6D0:5160:4DD7:4281:96BE:A259|talk]]) 18:27, 27 May 2023 (UTC)


== Presence in Monaco ==
{{reflist-talk}}
While still official language, there are reports that there are no more speakers.


"In Monaco, the neighborhoods in the lower area had been historically Occitan-speaking, but the language has now been completely replaced by French and others."
== Colors of the second map ==


<https://www.nationalia.info/profile/32/occitania> [[User:HYTEN CREW|HYTEN CREW]] ([[User talk:HYTEN CREW|talk]]) 17:01, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
The choice of colors for the second map could not be worse. They should contrast as much as possible rather than all be shades of violet or purple. No one is going to take the trouble of trying to match a color on the map with a color in the key.[[User:S. Valkemirer|S. Valkemirer]] ([[User talk:S. Valkemirer|talk]]) 13:13, 3 February 2021 (UTC)


== Māori translation ==
== Grammar section/article ==


The Language Characteristics section only really discusses phonology, and only lists the Occitan Phonology article as a See Also. This would be kind of fine if there was an Occitan Grammar article, but there isn't. There is a whole article on Occitan Conjugation, oddly, which could serve as a good candidate for expansion into a larger Occitan Grammar article. This would be fine if the main Occitan Language article adequately discussed grammar, but as I previously mentioned it does not. Could this be started at some point? [[User:Eel of Oppo|Eel of Oppo]] ([[User talk:Eel of Oppo|talk]]) 15:33, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
There's a Māori translation of this page which needs to be linked: https://mi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reo_Occitan [[User:Thomas Norren|Thomas Norren]] ([[User talk:Thomas Norren|talk]]) 08:14, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
:Done. [[User:Largoplazo|Largoplazo]] ([[User talk:Largoplazo|talk]]) 10:50, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 15:33, 6 November 2024

Oil/Oc/Si

[edit]

If this is Langues d'oc and the other is Langues d'oïl, what is Langues de si ?76.66.193.119 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 23:32, 21 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Spanish, Italian, etc. --Jotamar (talk) 13:44, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Is there an article about it? 76.66.193.119 (talk) 09:09, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is only one "Lenga d'Òc" and not several "Lengas (sic) d'Òc". Please read this section. The name "Language of sì" only refers to Italian. This way of naming and comparing three languages ("language of oc", "language of oil", "language of si") was developped especially in Dante's De Vulgari Eloquentia (1304).--Nil Blau (talk) 17:21, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Except that there was no language called "Italian" in Dante's day. There were a variety of Romance dialects spoken in Italy. Funnyhat (talk) 23:53, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Table of linguistic comparisons

[edit]

Comparison with other Romance languages Common words in Romance languages, with English (a Germanic language) for reference Latin Occitan (including main regional varieties) Catalan French Ladin (Nones) Lombard Italian Spanish Portuguese Sardinian Romanian English cantare cantar (chantar) cantar chanter ciantar cantà cantare cantar cantar cantare cânta '(to) sing' capram cabra (chabra, craba) cabra chèvre ciaura cavra capra cabra cabra craba capră 'goat' clavem clau clau clé clau ciav chiave llave chave crae cheie 'key' ecclesiam, basilicam glèisa església église glesia giesa chiesa iglesia igreja gresia biserică 'church' formaticvm (Vulgar Latin), casevm formatge (hormatge) formatge fromage formai furmai/furmagg formaggio/cacio queso queijo casu caş 'cheese' lingvam lenga (lengua) llengua langue lenga lengua lingua lengua língua limba limbă 'tongue, language' noctem nuèch (nuèit) nit nuit not nocc notte noche noite nothe noapte 'night' plateam plaça plaça place plaza piasa piazza/platea plaza praça pratza piaţă[59] 'square, plaza' pontem pont (pònt) pont pont pònt punt ponte puente ponte ponte punte 'bridge'

Is there any particular reason why the Latin nouns are always in the accusative case? Is this to do with vulgar Latin adaptations?. I think it should be noted in the article as well. Alexandre8 (talk) 19:35, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Virgin Mary Statue Pic

[edit]

Shouldn't this be turned through 90deg so the Virgin Mary's head is at the yop of the pic? Gonetofrance (talk) 09:21, 5 December 2011 (UTC) Gonetofrance 5th Dec 2011[reply]

Langues d'oc and catalan

[edit]

Langues d'oc, d'oil and de si represent a comparison of Latin languages based on their words for yes. Langues d'oil has its own article, but langues d'oc redirects here. Langues de si or something similar doesn't have an article anywhere (which would include for example, Italian, Portuguese and Spanish).

Obviously this isn't the system used by modern linguists to classify romance languages, but it's given a certain legitimacy by having langues d'oc redirect here.

We then end up with a rather absurd situation where and article that talks about how oil languages (primarily french) can be distinguished from oc languages (which then links here) by their word for yes. Then you have an article that halfway down talks as though Catalan and Occitan are arguably one and the same. But Catalan for yes is si, and not oc. Wouldn't that make Catalan a langue de si?

Again, this system based on yes is obviously archaic, and whether Catalan is "ibero-romance" "gallo-romance" is contentious in itself. But the current situation is rather strange. Perhaps there should be a separate article discussing the oil, oc, si, classification, and then have references to "langues d'oc" redirect there, rather than here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.35.41 (talk) 16:10, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Langues d'oc is an invention of an obscure medievist scholar (Jean-Claude Rivière), compromised in helping a revisionnist "historian" (Henri Roques) around 1975. Dante Alighieri coined the words lingua de hoc, lingua de oïl and lingua de si to denominate Occitan (or Langue d'Oc, singular as written by Honnorat and Mistral), French, and Italian (not Spanish or any other: Dante wanted to push Italian as the literary language against Occitan and French). So langues d'oc has no legitimacy. --— J. F. B. (me´n parlar) 20:38, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"ibero-romance" and "gallo-romance" are very linked to nation-state linguistic nationalism of France and Spain. Modern scholars as P. Bec use occitano-romance to group Occitan and Catalan. --— J. F. B. (me´n parlar) 20:38, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

New 2020 study of Occitan language L1 speakers

[edit]

A new study conducted on behalf of the Office for Occitan in Nouvelle-Aquitaine, Occitania and Spain's Val d'Aran has found that 7% of the population in both French regions (combined population 7.74m) and 62% in the latter (8,000) declare themselves to be Occitan speakers, which would give an L1 population of approximately 540,000 [1]. That figure excludes any Occitan speakers in Provence, which wasn't included in the survey. Culloty82 (talk) 20:53, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.ofici-occitan.eu/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/OPLO_Enquete-sociolingusitique-occitan-2020_Resultats.pdf

Colors of the second map

[edit]

The choice of colors for the second map could not be worse. They should contrast as much as possible rather than all be shades of violet or purple. No one is going to take the trouble of trying to match a color on the map with a color in the key.S. Valkemirer (talk) 13:13, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Māori translation

[edit]

There's a Māori translation of this page which needs to be linked: https://mi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reo_Occitan Thomas Norren (talk) 08:14, 21 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Largoplazo (talk) 10:50, 21 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

“minimal Celtic influence”

[edit]

“Occitan dialects are a result of the Latin influence on the language of the southern Gauls“, it is called Gallo-Romance because of this.

<https://minorityrights.org/minorities/occitan-speakers/> 1arkspur (talk) 00:03, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Occitan words and their French, Catalan and Spanish cognates" table

[edit]

This table needs clarification about which Occitan dialect is being referenced. In which dialect is the word for "house" maison and in which is it casa? It's not clear at the moment. Both are just labeled as "Occitan". 2600:1702:6D0:5160:4DD7:4281:96BE:A259 (talk) 18:27, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Presence in Monaco

[edit]

While still official language, there are reports that there are no more speakers.

"In Monaco, the neighborhoods in the lower area had been historically Occitan-speaking, but the language has now been completely replaced by French and others."

<https://www.nationalia.info/profile/32/occitania> HYTEN CREW (talk) 17:01, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Grammar section/article

[edit]

The Language Characteristics section only really discusses phonology, and only lists the Occitan Phonology article as a See Also. This would be kind of fine if there was an Occitan Grammar article, but there isn't. There is a whole article on Occitan Conjugation, oddly, which could serve as a good candidate for expansion into a larger Occitan Grammar article. This would be fine if the main Occitan Language article adequately discussed grammar, but as I previously mentioned it does not. Could this be started at some point? Eel of Oppo (talk) 15:33, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Occitan_language&oldid=1255766752"