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{{talk header}}
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{{Vital article|class=B|level=5|topic=Society}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|vital=yes|1=
{{WikiProject France|importance=High}}
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1=
{{WikiProject France|class=B|importance=High}}
{{WikiProject Spain|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Spain|class=B|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Languages|importance=low}}
}}
{{WP Languages|class=B|importance=low}}}}
{{User:MiszaBot/config

|archiveheader = {{aan}}
== Sentence in the Lourdes statue ==
|maxarchivesize = 100K

|counter = 2
I have changed the sentence that appears in the statue to "Que soy era immaculata councepciou", as it reads in the image.
|minthreadsleft = 10
--[[User:Eleder|Eleder]] ([[User talk:Eleder|talk]]) 14:48, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
|algo = old(730d)
:You're wrong. The correct and codified orthography is the former one: "Que soi era Immaculada Concepcion".--[[User:Nil Blau|Nil Blau]] ([[User talk:Nil Blau|talk]]) 22:03, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
|archive = Talk:Occitan language/Archive %(counter)d

}}
== Some small changes in Occitan phonology... ==
{{Broken anchors|links=
Hi, I've made some changes in the transcription of the final unstressed -a. Some people may (/will) disapprove it but actually the usual description (Bec, Coustenoble, the diverse Linguistic Atlas) state that this vowel seems to be a mid-back rounded vowel just like in Spanish and many other languages. Some modern trends think it is an open-mid back vowel however it is really far from sounding just like the -ò- de ''p'''ò'''rta'' for instance.
* <nowiki>[[Demographics of France#Historical population of metropolitan France|1860]]</nowiki> The anchor (#Historical population of metropolitan France) has been [[Special:Diff/709699648|deleted by other users]] before. <!-- {"title":"Historical population of metropolitan France","appear":{"revid":6013721,"parentid":6013698,"timestamp":"2004-09-20T14:32:34Z","removed_section_titles":[],"added_section_titles":["Historical population of metropolitan France"]},"disappear":{"revid":709699648,"parentid":709698400,"timestamp":"2016-03-12T14:38:03Z","removed_section_titles":["Historical population of metropolitan France","Projections"],"added_section_titles":["Historical population figures","Population projections"]}} -->
See you, de còr e d'òc, [[User:Capsot|Capsot]] ([[User talk:Capsot|talk]]) 11:44, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
}}

==Requested move (2008)==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:polltop -->
:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

The result of the proposal was '''no consensus to move'''. [[User:JPG-GR|JPG-GR]] ([[User talk:JPG-GR|talk]]) 17:28, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

[[Occitan language]] → [[Occitan]] — The term "Occitan" does not appear to have any other primary meaning than the language. There's no evidence of an "Occitan people", despite claims in previous move requests. [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (languages)]] states that any term that isn't actually in need of the "language" disambiguator should not use it. I'm hoping we won't repeat the previous polarized reflex-polling, but rather that we weigh conventions, guidelines and the arguments of individual editors to make an informed decision. — [[User:Peter Isotalo|Peter]] <sup>[[User talk:Peter Isotalo|Isotalo]]</sup> 12:35, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

===Survey===
:''Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with'' <code><nowiki>*'''Support'''</nowiki></code> ''or'' <code><nowiki>*'''Oppose'''</nowiki></code>'', then sign your comment with'' <code><nowiki>~~~~</nowiki></code>''. Since [[Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion|polling is not a substitute for discussion]], please explain your reasons, taking into account [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions|Wikipedia's naming conventions]].''

*'''Oppose''' - I see no need for this. It would be a change for change's sake. The current name is not misleading and i find "Occitan language" clearer than "Occitan". Also, a lot of links point to "Occitan language". --[[User:Amire80|Amir E. Aharoni]] ([[User talk:Amire80|talk]]) 12:44, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
::Is this really necessary? The conventions are perfectly clear about this. I feel that your opposition is what's being done for it's own sake. What's the reason for making this article an exception to both common practice and long-standing guidelines? If it hadn't been for the fact that [[Occitan]] was a redirect that had been edited, I would've simply moved the article as a formality instead of going through the whole [[WP:RM]] procedure. [[User:Peter Isotalo|Peter]] <sup>[[User talk:Peter Isotalo|Isotalo]]</sup> 13:11, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
:::Read the previous move proposals, they answer all your questions. --[[User:Amire80|Amir E. Aharoni]] ([[User talk:Amire80|talk]]) 13:18, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
::::They make no sense at all. First people opposed the move because they thought it was against conventions (which it was not) or that it had to be disambiguated from the "Occitan people" (that doesn't exist). Again, why is it so important to make this an exception from the convention? [[User:Peter Isotalo|Peter]] <sup>[[User talk:Peter Isotalo|Isotalo]]</sup> 17:31, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
:::::It is not terribly against the ''letter'' of the convention and it certainly against its ''spirit''. The whole idea of good article naming is to make articles easier to find, read and link to. "Occitan language" is easier to find, read and link to than "Occitan". Count the links to it, for example. Leaving this article at "Occitan language" is hardly an exception from the written convention, but renaming it to "Occitan" is an inconvenient exception from the de facto convention of naming nearly all language articles with the word "language". I'm not saying anything new - the comments at the previous discussion say the same and make a lot of sense. --[[User:Amire80|Amir E. Aharoni]] ([[User talk:Amire80|talk]]) 08:16, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
::::::The spirit of the convention as far as I can tell is to have short, unambiguous titles which are easy to link to. It's even worded in the "in a nutshell"-summary. "Occitan" appears to fulfill both criteria quite nicely. "Occitan language" merely adds one more word without any benefit. I'm quite aware that people are insisting on that an ethnic group called "Occitan people" exists, but no one appears to be able to support it with references. As far as I can tell, it's about as relevant as an "Esperanto people" or "Yiddish people". [[User:Peter Isotalo|Peter]] <sup>[[User talk:Peter Isotalo|Isotalo]]</sup> 12:10, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. There's nothing to disambiguate with, so the "language" bit is superfluous in the title.--[[User:Boffob|Boffob]] ([[User talk:Boffob|talk]]) 17:57, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - I also do not see the need. Also, in spite of the comment above, Occitan could be used in reference to [[Occitania]] and not restricted to just language. [[User:Dionix|Dionix]] ([[User talk:Dionix|talk]]) 20:29, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
**Disambiguations are relevant only to nouns, not adjectives. The term "Occitan" has only one meaning in an encyclopedic context, just like [[Latin]], [[Hindi]], [[Inuktitut]], etc. Moreover, Occitania is an area dependent on the language, not the other way around. The language is far more well-known than the area which defines its extent. [[User:Peter Isotalo|Peter]] <sup>[[User talk:Peter Isotalo|Isotalo]]</sup> 07:43, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
***There are people who will disagree to the statement that it's only a language and not an area. I don't necessarily agree with them, but there is no clear consensus about it. --[[User:Amire80|Amir E. Aharoni]] ([[User talk:Amire80|talk]]) 08:16, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - If that move would be accepted, then when somebody will create for instance [[Occitan people]] it will have to be moved back again. I would suggest to be practical and leave it as it is instead of wasting time with changes back and forth. --[[User:Cnoguera|Carles Noguera]] ([[User talk:Cnoguera|talk]]) 08:12, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
*'''Neutral'''. "Occitan" already redirects here, and that's convenient. But "Occitan" would also be the appropriate adjetival form of [[Occitania]], from which Occitan was formed by [[backformation]]. Perhaps we need a hatnote to Occitania. That would satisfy me and then I would support the move. [[User:Srnec|Srnec]] ([[User talk:Srnec|talk]]) 19:12, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
**Both [[Occitania]] and this article link to each other in the first sentence of the lead. Hatnotes seems a bit excessive. [[User:Peter Isotalo|Peter]] <sup>[[User talk:Peter Isotalo|Isotalo]]</sup> 10:51, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
***I dislike unnecessary hatnotes as much as anybody, but in this case I worry that the adjetival form of Occitania might be taken to be "Occitanian" and the term Occitan thought to only refer to the language. [[User:Srnec|Srnec]] ([[User talk:Srnec|talk]]) 16:19, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - no compelling need; current title is clearer. [[User:Biruitorul|Biruitorul]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Biruitorul|Talk]]</sup></small> 20:12, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

===Discussion===
:''Any additional comments:''

I am not voting in this poll, but in the long linguistic tradition of forcing everything to look like [[Latin]], I guess the proposal makes sense. And if/when someone decides to write an article about the Occitan people, they can call it "[[Occitans]]" (cf. [[Latins]]). And then we can AfD it. [[User:CapnPrep|CapnPrep]] ([[User talk:CapnPrep|talk]]) 12:23, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

It strikes me that several of the articles associated with this one also refer to their subjects as "languages", when they might be more accurately referred to as "dialects". We have [[Aranese language]] and [[Limousin language]], which could be profitably moved to [[Aranese dialect]] and [[Limousin dialect]] (cf. [[Kansai dialect]], [[Kunming dialect]], [[Cumbrian dialect]], etc.). If this ends up moved to the plain title, I suppose [[Provençal]] should remain where it is now. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]][[User talk:Dekimasu|<span style="color:darkgreen; font-size:smaller;">よ!</span>]] 03:28, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
:'''Just a comment''': I read a grammar of Aranese (in Aranese) and a few articles about it, and the tendency is to call it a "language", and to admit at the same time that it is a variety of Gascon Occitan. It is a bit confusing, but nevertheless there are external sources that call it a language, so we should do the same. --[[User:Amire80|Amir E. Aharoni]] ([[User talk:Amire80|talk]]) 21:41, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
::Sources tend to refer to languages with a disambiguator only when it is necessary for clarity. Pretty much the same as is the case here on Wikipedia.
::[[User:Peter Isotalo|Peter]] <sup>[[User talk:Peter Isotalo|Isotalo]]</sup> 06:39, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:pollbottom -->

== English language ==

The word Occitan was entirely new to me.
I found the article very interesting, but directed a bit too much to the specialist, i.e., linguist.
The English on the whole is good, but there are numerous places that show it to be written by a non-English speaker or speakers. I say this from nearly thirty years of experience correcting scientific texts written by non-native speakers.
When I read something that contains what I see as language errors, I become suspicious of whether other parts of the text mean what I think they mean.
[[User:Ami Ralph|Ami Ralph]] ([[User talk:Ami Ralph|talk]]) 01:06, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

== First map on page ==

The first map would be helpful if the surrounding countries are labeled, because otherwise, one would have no idea where the Occitan language is spoken if they looked quickly at the article. The map pictured doesn't give one a sense of area at all.
[[Special:Contributions/74.69.7.20|74.69.7.20]] ([[User talk:74.69.7.20|talk]]) 15:56, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree. The map is only useful if you consult another map at the same time. That's nutty. I thank the person who took the time to make it, but it needs labels! <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/4.237.255.106|4.237.255.106]] ([[User talk:4.237.255.106|talk]]) 08:13, 21 November 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== typo in Gascon sample? ==

''Totas las personas que naishen liuras e egaus en dignitat e en dreit. Que son dotadas de rason e de consciéncia e que'us cau agir enter eras dab un esperit de hrairessa.''

Looks as if the fourth word "que" might be redundant here? [[User:Flapdragon|Flapdragon]] ([[User talk:Flapdragon|talk]]) 16:51, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
:Not at all. This use of ''que'' before a verb is perfectly normal in Gascon Occitan. It indicates an affirmative sentence.--[[User:Nil Blau|Nil Blau]] ([[User talk:Nil Blau|talk]]) 15:58, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

== Tributary, etc. ==

''external influences could have impeded its origin and development, making it only a tributary of standard Latin.''

Huh? I can't figure out what this is trying to say. [[Special:Contributions/72.75.81.72|72.75.81.72]] ([[User talk:72.75.81.72|talk]]) 03:10, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

== Written Occitan is generally understandable by readers who have some knowledge in any other Romance language ==

Where did you find that ? Would you say that "Written Spanish/Italian/French/Portuguese/etc. is generally understandable by readers who have some knowledge in any other Romance language" ?? [[Special:Contributions/87.231.100.108|87.231.100.108]] ([[User talk:87.231.100.108|talk]]) 03:31, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
: I propose to remove this sentence, since it's non sense, agree ? [[Special:Contributions/193.203.192.15|193.203.192.15]] ([[User talk:193.203.192.15|talk]]) 10:45, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
:: Ok I do that, you will correct it if you think I am wrong. [[Special:Contributions/193.203.192.15|193.203.192.15]] ([[User talk:193.203.192.15|talk]]) 13:12, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

== Occitano-Romance linguistic group ==

In [[Occitan language#Occitano-Romance linguistic group|that section]], it states, “Speakers of both languages share early historical, cultural, and amicable heritage”… “Amicable heritage?” Is this a mistranslation from a Gallo-Iberian language, or some usage with which I’m unfamiliar? I’d fix it only I’m not quite sure what they’re getting at. —[[User talk:Wiki Wikardo|Wiki Wikardo]] 06:38, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

==Oil/Oc/Si==
==Oil/Oc/Si==
If this is [[Langues d'oc]] and the other is [[Langues d'oïl]], what is [[Langues de si]] ? [[Special:Contributions/76.66.193.119|76.66.193.119]] ([[User talk:76.66.193.119|talk]])
If this is [[Langues d'oc]] and the other is [[Langues d'oïl]], what is [[Langues de si]] ?[[Special:Contributions/76.66.193.119|76.66.193.119]] ([[User talk:76.66.193.119|talk]]) <!--Template:Undated--><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment added 23:32, 21 July 2010 (UTC)</small>
: Spanish, Italian, etc. --[[User:Jotamar|Jotamar]] ([[User talk:Jotamar|talk]]) 13:44, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
: Spanish, Italian, etc. --[[User:Jotamar|Jotamar]] ([[User talk:Jotamar|talk]]) 13:44, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
::Is there an article about it? [[Special:Contributions/76.66.193.119|76.66.193.119]] ([[User talk:76.66.193.119|talk]]) 09:09, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
::Is there an article about it? [[Special:Contributions/76.66.193.119|76.66.193.119]] ([[User talk:76.66.193.119|talk]]) 09:09, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
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::::Except that there was no language called "Italian" in Dante's day. There were a variety of Romance dialects spoken in Italy. [[User:Funnyhat|Funnyhat]] ([[User talk:Funnyhat|talk]]) 23:53, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
::::Except that there was no language called "Italian" in Dante's day. There were a variety of Romance dialects spoken in Italy. [[User:Funnyhat|Funnyhat]] ([[User talk:Funnyhat|talk]]) 23:53, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

== Addition to Occitan-speaking communities ==
Occitan is thought to be spoken in [[La Serena, Chile]]. A small wave of immigrants from Occitan speaking regions of France, esp. [[Languedoc-Roussillon]], settled there in the late 19th century. The Chilean government sponsored immigration and land sale programs in the subarid Northern and forested Southern halves of the country. Among the 100,000 French immigrants whom came, an estimated 5,000 Occitans live in Chile. A small poetry reading club and an [[A capella]] song-and-music group by descendants of Occitan French settlers are preserving the language in Chile. [[User:Mike D 26|Mike D 26]] ([[User talk:Mike D 26|talk]]) 03:52, 25 January 2011 (UTC)


== Table of linguistic comparisons ==
== Table of linguistic comparisons ==

Comparison with other Romance languages
Comparison with other Romance languages
Common words in Romance languages, with English (a Germanic language) for reference
Common words in Romance languages, with English (a Germanic language) for reference
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plateam plaça plaça place plaza piasa piazza/platea plaza praça pratza piaţă[59] 'square, plaza'
plateam plaça plaça place plaza piasa piazza/platea plaza praça pratza piaţă[59] 'square, plaza'
pontem pont (pònt) pont pont pònt punt ponte puente ponte ponte punte 'bridge'
pontem pont (pònt) pont pont pònt punt ponte puente ponte ponte punte 'bridge'





Is there any particular reason why the Latin nouns are always in the accusative case? Is this to do with vulgar Latin adaptations?. I think it should be noted in the article as well. [[User:Alexandre8|Alexandre8]] ([[User talk:Alexandre8|talk]]) 19:35, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
Is there any particular reason why the Latin nouns are always in the accusative case? Is this to do with vulgar Latin adaptations?. I think it should be noted in the article as well. [[User:Alexandre8|Alexandre8]] ([[User talk:Alexandre8|talk]]) 19:35, 9 October 2011 (UTC)


== Virgin Mary Statue Pic ==
== Virgin Mary Statue Pic ==

Shouldn't this be turned through 90deg so the Virgin Mary's head is at the yop of the pic?
Shouldn't this be turned through 90deg so the Virgin Mary's head is at the yop of the pic?
[[User:Gonetofrance|Gonetofrance]] ([[User talk:Gonetofrance|talk]]) 09:21, 5 December 2011 (UTC) Gonetofrance 5th Dec 2011
[[User:Gonetofrance|Gonetofrance]] ([[User talk:Gonetofrance|talk]]) 09:21, 5 December 2011 (UTC) Gonetofrance 5th Dec 2011


== Langues d'oc and catalan ==
== Langues d'oc and catalan ==

Langues d'oc, d'oil and de si represent a comparison of Latin languages based on their words for yes. Langues d'oil has its own article, but langues d'oc redirects here. Langues de si or something similar doesn't have an article anywhere (which would include for example, Italian, Portuguese and Spanish).
Langues d'oc, d'oil and de si represent a comparison of Latin languages based on their words for yes. Langues d'oil has its own article, but langues d'oc redirects here. Langues de si or something similar doesn't have an article anywhere (which would include for example, Italian, Portuguese and Spanish).


Obviously this isn't the system used by modern linguists to classify romance languages, but it's given a certain legitimacy by having langues d'oc redirect here.
Obviously this isn't the system used by modern linguists to classify romance languages, but it's given a certain legitimacy by having langues d'oc redirect here.
:Langues d'oc is an invention of an obscure medievist scholar (Jean-Claude Rivière), compromised in helping a revisionnist "historian" (Henri Roques) around 1975. Dante Alighieri coined the words lingua de hoc, lingua de oïl and lingua de si to denominate Occitan (or Langue d'Oc, singular as written by Honnorat and Mistral), French, and Italian (not Spanish or any other: Dante wanted to push Italian as the literary language against Occitan and French). So langues d'oc has no legitimacy. --— [[User:Jfblanc|J. F. B.]] <sup>([[User talk:Jfblanc|me´n parlar]])</sup> 20:38, 8 November 2015 (UTC)


We then end up with a rather absurd situation where and article that talks about how oil languages (primarily french) can be distinguished from oc languages (which then links here) by their word for yes. Then you have an article that halfway down talks as though Catalan and Occitan are arguably one and the same. But Catalan for yes is si, and ''not'' oc. Wouldn't that make Catalan a langue de si?
We then end up with a rather absurd situation where and article that talks about how oil languages (primarily french) can be distinguished from oc languages (which then links here) by their word for yes. Then you have an article that halfway down talks as though Catalan and Occitan are arguably one and the same. But Catalan for yes is si, and ''not'' oc. Wouldn't that make Catalan a langue de si?


Again, this system based on yes is obviously archaic, and whether Catalan is "ibero-romance" "gallo-romance" is contentious in itself. But the current situation is rather strange. Perhaps there should be a separate article discussing the oil, oc, si, classification, and then have references to "langues d'oc" redirect there, rather than here? <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/88.104.35.41|88.104.35.41]] ([[User talk:88.104.35.41|talk]]) 16:10, 8 November 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
Again, this system based on yes is obviously archaic, and whether Catalan is "ibero-romance" "gallo-romance" is contentious in itself. But the current situation is rather strange. Perhaps there should be a separate article discussing the oil, oc, si, classification, and then have references to "langues d'oc" redirect there, rather than here? <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/88.104.35.41|88.104.35.41]] ([[User talk:88.104.35.41|talk]]) 16:10, 8 November 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:"ibero-romance" and "gallo-romance" are very linked to nation-state linguistic nationalism of France and Spain. Modern scholars as P. Bec use occitano-romance to group Occitan and Catalan. --— [[User:Jfblanc|J. F. B.]] <sup>([[User talk:Jfblanc|me´n parlar]])</sup> 20:38, 8 November 2015 (UTC)


:Langues d'oc is an invention of an obscure medievist scholar (Jean-Claude Rivière), compromised in helping a revisionnist "historian" (Henri Roques) around 1975. Dante Alighieri coined the words lingua de hoc, lingua de oïl and lingua de si to denominate Occitan (or Langue d'Oc, singular as written by Honnorat and Mistral), French, and Italian (not Spanish or any other: Dante wanted to push Italian as the literary language against Occitan and French). So langues d'oc has no legitimacy. --— [[User:Jfblanc|J. F. B.]] <sup>([[User talk:Jfblanc|me´n parlar]])</sup> 20:38, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
== External links modified ==
::"ibero-romance" and "gallo-romance" are very linked to nation-state linguistic nationalism of France and Spain. Modern scholars as P. Bec use occitano-romance to group Occitan and Catalan. --— [[User:Jfblanc|J. F. B.]] <sup>([[User talk:Jfblanc|me´n parlar]])</sup> 20:38, 8 November 2015 (UTC)


== New 2020 study of Occitan language L1 speakers ==
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
A new study conducted on behalf of the Office for Occitan in Nouvelle-Aquitaine, Occitania and Spain's Val d'Aran has found that 7% of the population in both French regions (combined population 7.74m) and 62% in the latter (8,000) declare themselves to be Occitan speakers, which would give an L1 population of approximately 540,000 <ref>https://www.ofici-occitan.eu/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/OPLO_Enquete-sociolingusitique-occitan-2020_Resultats.pdf</ref>. That figure excludes any Occitan speakers in Provence, which wasn't included in the survey. [[User:Culloty82|Culloty82]] ([[User talk:Culloty82|talk]]) 20:53, 29 October 2020 (UTC)


{{reflist-talk}}
I have just modified 5 external links on [[Occitan language]]. Please take a moment to review [[special:diff/813095533|my edit]]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added {{tlx|dead link}} tag to http://www.revistadoc.org/file/Linguistica%20occitana%206%20CLO.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130826045656/http://www.parlament-cat.net/porteso/estatut/estatut_angles_100506.pdf to http://www.parlament-cat.net/porteso/estatut/estatut_angles_100506.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120327223934/http://www.osoa.net/Articles/Desaparicion_del_Euskara_por_el_este_y_norte.pdf to http://www.osoa.net/Articles/Desaparicion_del_Euskara_por_el_este_y_norte.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081003112058/http://www.oc-valencia.org/files/autors/El_Pensament_Ultima.pdf to http://www.oc-valencia.org/files/autors/El_Pensament_Ultima.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060709074538/http://www6.gencat.net/llengcat/socio/coneix.htm to http://www6.gencat.net/llengcat/socio/coneix.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060405161054/http://globegate.utm.edu/french/globegate_mirror/occit.html to http://globegate.utm.edu/french/globegate_mirror/occit.html


== Colors of the second map ==
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
The choice of colors for the second map could not be worse. They should contrast as much as possible rather than all be shades of violet or purple. No one is going to take the trouble of trying to match a color on the map with a color in the key.[[User:S. Valkemirer|S. Valkemirer]] ([[User talk:S. Valkemirer|talk]]) 13:13, 3 February 2021 (UTC)


== Māori translation ==
{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}}
There's a Māori translation of this page which needs to be linked: https://mi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reo_Occitan [[User:Thomas Norren|Thomas Norren]] ([[User talk:Thomas Norren|talk]]) 08:14, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
:Done. [[User:Largoplazo|Largoplazo]] ([[User talk:Largoplazo|talk]]) 10:50, 21 September 2022 (UTC)


== “minimal Celtic influence” ==
Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 18:58, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
“Occitan dialects are a result of the Latin influence on the language of the southern Gauls“, it is called Gallo-Romance because of this.


<https://minorityrights.org/minorities/occitan-speakers/> [[User:1arkspur|1arkspur]] ([[User talk:1arkspur|talk]]) 00:03, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
== New 2020 study of Occitan language L1 speakers ==


== "Occitan words and their French, Catalan and Spanish cognates" table ==
A new study conducted on behalf of the Office for Occitan in Nouvelle-Aquitaine, Occitania and Spain's Val d'Aran has found that 7% of the population in both French regions (combined population 7.74m) and 62% in the latter (8,000) declare themselves to be Occitan speakers, which would give an L1 population of approximately 540,000 <ref>https://www.ofici-occitan.eu/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/OPLO_Enquete-sociolingusitique-occitan-2020_Resultats.pdf</ref>. That figure excludes any Occitan speakers in Provence, which wasn't included in the survey. [[User:Culloty82|Culloty82]] ([[User talk:Culloty82|talk]]) 20:53, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
This table needs clarification about which Occitan dialect is being referenced. In which dialect is the word for "house" ''maison'' and in which is it ''casa''? It's not clear at the moment. Both are just labeled as "Occitan". [[Special:Contributions/2600:1702:6D0:5160:4DD7:4281:96BE:A259|2600:1702:6D0:5160:4DD7:4281:96BE:A259]] ([[User talk:2600:1702:6D0:5160:4DD7:4281:96BE:A259|talk]]) 18:27, 27 May 2023 (UTC)


== Presence in Monaco ==
{{reflist-talk}}
While still official language, there are reports that there are no more speakers.


"In Monaco, the neighborhoods in the lower area had been historically Occitan-speaking, but the language has now been completely replaced by French and others."
== Colors of the second map ==


<https://www.nationalia.info/profile/32/occitania> [[User:HYTEN CREW|HYTEN CREW]] ([[User talk:HYTEN CREW|talk]]) 17:01, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
The choice of colors for the second map could not be worse. They should contrast as much as possible rather than all be shades of violet or purple. No one is going to take the trouble of trying to match a color on the map with a color in the key.[[User:S. Valkemirer|S. Valkemirer]] ([[User talk:S. Valkemirer|talk]]) 13:13, 3 February 2021 (UTC)


== Māori translation ==
== Grammar section/article ==


The Language Characteristics section only really discusses phonology, and only lists the Occitan Phonology article as a See Also. This would be kind of fine if there was an Occitan Grammar article, but there isn't. There is a whole article on Occitan Conjugation, oddly, which could serve as a good candidate for expansion into a larger Occitan Grammar article. This would be fine if the main Occitan Language article adequately discussed grammar, but as I previously mentioned it does not. Could this be started at some point? [[User:Eel of Oppo|Eel of Oppo]] ([[User talk:Eel of Oppo|talk]]) 15:33, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
There's a Māori translation of this page which needs to be linked: https://mi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reo_Occitan [[User:Thomas Norren|Thomas Norren]] ([[User talk:Thomas Norren|talk]]) 08:14, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
:Done. [[User:Largoplazo|Largoplazo]] ([[User talk:Largoplazo|talk]]) 10:50, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 15:33, 6 November 2024

Oil/Oc/Si

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If this is Langues d'oc and the other is Langues d'oïl, what is Langues de si ?76.66.193.119 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 23:32, 21 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Spanish, Italian, etc. --Jotamar (talk) 13:44, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Is there an article about it? 76.66.193.119 (talk) 09:09, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is only one "Lenga d'Òc" and not several "Lengas (sic) d'Òc". Please read this section. The name "Language of sì" only refers to Italian. This way of naming and comparing three languages ("language of oc", "language of oil", "language of si") was developped especially in Dante's De Vulgari Eloquentia (1304).--Nil Blau (talk) 17:21, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Except that there was no language called "Italian" in Dante's day. There were a variety of Romance dialects spoken in Italy. Funnyhat (talk) 23:53, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Table of linguistic comparisons

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Comparison with other Romance languages Common words in Romance languages, with English (a Germanic language) for reference Latin Occitan (including main regional varieties) Catalan French Ladin (Nones) Lombard Italian Spanish Portuguese Sardinian Romanian English cantare cantar (chantar) cantar chanter ciantar cantà cantare cantar cantar cantare cânta '(to) sing' capram cabra (chabra, craba) cabra chèvre ciaura cavra capra cabra cabra craba capră 'goat' clavem clau clau clé clau ciav chiave llave chave crae cheie 'key' ecclesiam, basilicam glèisa església église glesia giesa chiesa iglesia igreja gresia biserică 'church' formaticvm (Vulgar Latin), casevm formatge (hormatge) formatge fromage formai furmai/furmagg formaggio/cacio queso queijo casu caş 'cheese' lingvam lenga (lengua) llengua langue lenga lengua lingua lengua língua limba limbă 'tongue, language' noctem nuèch (nuèit) nit nuit not nocc notte noche noite nothe noapte 'night' plateam plaça plaça place plaza piasa piazza/platea plaza praça pratza piaţă[59] 'square, plaza' pontem pont (pònt) pont pont pònt punt ponte puente ponte ponte punte 'bridge'

Is there any particular reason why the Latin nouns are always in the accusative case? Is this to do with vulgar Latin adaptations?. I think it should be noted in the article as well. Alexandre8 (talk) 19:35, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Virgin Mary Statue Pic

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Shouldn't this be turned through 90deg so the Virgin Mary's head is at the yop of the pic? Gonetofrance (talk) 09:21, 5 December 2011 (UTC) Gonetofrance 5th Dec 2011[reply]

Langues d'oc and catalan

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Langues d'oc, d'oil and de si represent a comparison of Latin languages based on their words for yes. Langues d'oil has its own article, but langues d'oc redirects here. Langues de si or something similar doesn't have an article anywhere (which would include for example, Italian, Portuguese and Spanish).

Obviously this isn't the system used by modern linguists to classify romance languages, but it's given a certain legitimacy by having langues d'oc redirect here.

We then end up with a rather absurd situation where and article that talks about how oil languages (primarily french) can be distinguished from oc languages (which then links here) by their word for yes. Then you have an article that halfway down talks as though Catalan and Occitan are arguably one and the same. But Catalan for yes is si, and not oc. Wouldn't that make Catalan a langue de si?

Again, this system based on yes is obviously archaic, and whether Catalan is "ibero-romance" "gallo-romance" is contentious in itself. But the current situation is rather strange. Perhaps there should be a separate article discussing the oil, oc, si, classification, and then have references to "langues d'oc" redirect there, rather than here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.35.41 (talk) 16:10, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Langues d'oc is an invention of an obscure medievist scholar (Jean-Claude Rivière), compromised in helping a revisionnist "historian" (Henri Roques) around 1975. Dante Alighieri coined the words lingua de hoc, lingua de oïl and lingua de si to denominate Occitan (or Langue d'Oc, singular as written by Honnorat and Mistral), French, and Italian (not Spanish or any other: Dante wanted to push Italian as the literary language against Occitan and French). So langues d'oc has no legitimacy. --— J. F. B. (me´n parlar) 20:38, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"ibero-romance" and "gallo-romance" are very linked to nation-state linguistic nationalism of France and Spain. Modern scholars as P. Bec use occitano-romance to group Occitan and Catalan. --— J. F. B. (me´n parlar) 20:38, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

New 2020 study of Occitan language L1 speakers

[edit]

A new study conducted on behalf of the Office for Occitan in Nouvelle-Aquitaine, Occitania and Spain's Val d'Aran has found that 7% of the population in both French regions (combined population 7.74m) and 62% in the latter (8,000) declare themselves to be Occitan speakers, which would give an L1 population of approximately 540,000 [1]. That figure excludes any Occitan speakers in Provence, which wasn't included in the survey. Culloty82 (talk) 20:53, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.ofici-occitan.eu/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/OPLO_Enquete-sociolingusitique-occitan-2020_Resultats.pdf

Colors of the second map

[edit]

The choice of colors for the second map could not be worse. They should contrast as much as possible rather than all be shades of violet or purple. No one is going to take the trouble of trying to match a color on the map with a color in the key.S. Valkemirer (talk) 13:13, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Māori translation

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There's a Māori translation of this page which needs to be linked: https://mi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reo_Occitan Thomas Norren (talk) 08:14, 21 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Largoplazo (talk) 10:50, 21 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

“minimal Celtic influence”

[edit]

“Occitan dialects are a result of the Latin influence on the language of the southern Gauls“, it is called Gallo-Romance because of this.

<https://minorityrights.org/minorities/occitan-speakers/> 1arkspur (talk) 00:03, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Occitan words and their French, Catalan and Spanish cognates" table

[edit]

This table needs clarification about which Occitan dialect is being referenced. In which dialect is the word for "house" maison and in which is it casa? It's not clear at the moment. Both are just labeled as "Occitan". 2600:1702:6D0:5160:4DD7:4281:96BE:A259 (talk) 18:27, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Presence in Monaco

[edit]

While still official language, there are reports that there are no more speakers.

"In Monaco, the neighborhoods in the lower area had been historically Occitan-speaking, but the language has now been completely replaced by French and others."

<https://www.nationalia.info/profile/32/occitania> HYTEN CREW (talk) 17:01, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Grammar section/article

[edit]

The Language Characteristics section only really discusses phonology, and only lists the Occitan Phonology article as a See Also. This would be kind of fine if there was an Occitan Grammar article, but there isn't. There is a whole article on Occitan Conjugation, oddly, which could serve as a good candidate for expansion into a larger Occitan Grammar article. This would be fine if the main Occitan Language article adequately discussed grammar, but as I previously mentioned it does not. Could this be started at some point? Eel of Oppo (talk) 15:33, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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