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== Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion ==
== Requested move 1 May 2015 ==
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
* [[commons:File:King Abdul Aziz Gate - Under Construction.jpg|King Abdul Aziz Gate - Under Construction.jpg]] ([[commons:Commons:Deletion requests/File:King Abdul Aziz Gate - Under Construction.jpg|discussion]])<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2022-12-02T12:06:20.191297 | King Abdul Aziz Gate - Under Construction.jpg -->
:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of a [[WP:RM|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.''
* [[commons:File:Mataaf expansion 2014 2.jpg|Mataaf expansion 2014 2.jpg]] ([[commons:Commons:Deletion requests/File:Mataaf expansion 2014 2.jpg|discussion]])<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2022-12-02T12:06:20.191297 | Mataaf expansion 2014 2.jpg -->
Participate in the deletion discussions at the nomination pages linked above. —[[User:Community Tech bot|Community Tech bot]] ([[User talk:Community Tech bot|talk]]) 12:06, 2 December 2022 (UTC)


== Temple of Hubal ==
'''Not moved.''' There is no clear consensus to move this page from its current title; the discussion is somewhat confused by the number of options being floated, including translation to an English title and addition of Al-, but there is generally an absence of consensus to move this subject to ''any'' other title. [[User:BD2412|<span style="background:gold">'''''bd2412'''''</span>]] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 15:08, 30 May 2015 (UTC)


It used to be the Temple of Hubal in Pre Islamic Era worshipped by the Quraysh Tribe [[Special:Contributions/171.76.85.13|171.76.85.13]] ([[User talk:171.76.85.13|talk]]) 03:38, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
* <s>[[:Masjid al-Haram]] → {{no redirect|Al-Masjid al-Haram}}</s> <s><small>(my original request was to move "Masjid al-Haram" to {{no redirect|Sacred Mosque}}, but changed it to instead move it to "Al-Masjid al-Haram", per suggestions by {{u|Fauzan}} in comments below)</s> (withdrew request, "Masjid al-Haram" seems the optimal title. See discussions below)</small>
* <s>[[:Al-Masjid an-Nabawi]] → {{no redirect|Prophet's Mosque}}</s> <small>(withdrew request for now, per suggestions below)</small>
* <s>[[:Masjid al-Qiblatain]] → {{no redirect|Mosque of the Two Qiblas}}</s> <small>(withdrew request for now, per suggestions below)</small><small> '''Note: '''A separate move request is now open for this page at [[Talk:Masjid al-Qiblatain#Requested move 4 May 2015]]</small>
– Per [[WP:ENGLISH]] and [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. "Sacred Mosque", "Prophet's Mosque", and "Mosque of the Two Qiblas" are all more recognizable to English-speakers. The current titles "Masjid al-Haram", "[[Al-Masjid an-Nabawi]]", and "[[Masjid al-Qiblatain]]" are merely approximate transliterations from Arabic, but not so accurate ones and there is even a controversy over their correct English transliterated forms (e.g. ''Masjid al-Haram'' or ''Al-Masjid al-Haram''? See above discussions). Hence, I think, they all must be changed to uncontroversial and common names. "Sacred Mosque", "Prophet's Mosque", and "Mosque of the Two Qiblas" all occur in [[WP:RS]] (Google Books results: [https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=Sacred+Mosque], [https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=Prophet%27s+Mosque], [https://www.google.com.pk/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22Mosque%20of%20the%20Two%20Qiblas%22]), and refer to their [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]] (i.e. ''al-Masjid al-Ḥarām'' in Mecca, and ''al-Masjid an-Nabawi'' and ''Masjid al-Qiblatayn'' in Medina) in RS, and are therefore naturally unambiguous. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 12:02, 1 May 2015 (UTC)


== Name ==
*'''<s>Oppose</s>''', The common name ''is'' Masjid al-Haram not Sacred Mosque. Sacred Mosque is not a very good term, and not a distinguishing one either. English translations should not be preferred because there is a disagreement in the transliteration. [https://www.google.com/search?q=Sacred+Mosque Sacred Mosque] returns 776k hits (including the general meaning) while [https://www.google.com/search?q=Masjid+al-Haram Masjid al-Haram] returns 1.3 million hits on Google. We may better have a discussion on moving "Masjid al-Haram" → "Al-Masjid al-Haram". While the translations are used, they appear in sources as "''Al-Qiblatayn Mosque, meaning the mosque of the two qiblas''", "''Mosque of the Two Qiblas (Masjid al-Qiblatayn)''", "''Masjid al-Qiblatayn (the Mosque of the Two Qiblas)''", etc. which does not indicate the superiority of the translations, it is just used to give an insight into the etymology of the word.
:Per [[WP:EN]], {{tq|The title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject which is ''most common in the English language''}}, not necessarily an English translation. --[[User:Fauzan|<span style="color:#2F4F4F">Fauzan</span>]][[User talk:Fauzan#top|<sup style="margin-left:0.5px;color:#BDB76B">✆ talk</sup>]][[Special:EmailUser/Fauzan|<sub style="margin-left:-26.5px;color:#BDB76B">✉ mail</sub>]] 14:31, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
::Thank you for suggestions. I agree with you on "Al-Masjid al-Haram", I had requested to move this article to it before and it still seems to me the best option. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 16:28, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
:::'''Support''' the new proposal, it is a better transliteration. --[[User:Fauzan|<span style="color:#2F4F4F">Fauzan</span>]][[User talk:Fauzan#top|<sup style="margin-left:0.5px;color:#BDB76B">✆ talk</sup>]][[Special:EmailUser/Fauzan|<sub style="margin-left:-26.5px;color:#BDB76B">✉ mail</sub>]] 18:23, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
*'''STRONG OPPOSE''' This is a ridiculous POV title and flagrantly against [[WP:UCRN]]. As a parallel, when we present "Mohammed" we wouldn't make an unqualified presentation of the "prophet Mohammed" which would present POV although it would be fine to present the "Islamic prophet Mohammed" or the "Muslim prophet Mohammed". By far the most common uses on this are the "Great Mosque" with "Grand Mosque" also performing highly. A presentation of "Prophet's Mosque". If there was an eastern church that had a different language name translated "God's House" I would go anywhere near this before it had come into common English usage. [[User:GregKaye|Greg]][[User talk:GregKaye|Kaye]] 14:50, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
::Al-Masjid al-Haram is not the [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]] for "[[Grand Mosque]]" or "Great Mosque", these titles can refer to any of the 100s of mosques in difference regions of the world known by that name. The first 20 Google Books results for "Grand Mosque" for example ([https://www.google.com/search?q=Grand+Mosque&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1]) returned only 7 or 8 results that refer to al-Masjid al-Haram. The other 12 or 13 results refer to other Grand Mosques (about one result, I was confused if it is referring to al-Masjid al-Haram or the Grand Mosque in [[Riyadh]]). "Grand Mosque" seems to be used rather rarely for al-Masjid al-Haram, and I am afraid "Great Mosque" is used for it even more rarely. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 16:28, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
:'''Oppose''' as per the close of last RM and in opposition to further unnecessary presentation as a [[WP:POVTITLE]]. This also comes in the context of other [[WP:ENGLISH]] concerns including various grammatical difficulties presented above and general [[WP:UCRN]] concerns.
:*The last RM was closes on 8 April 2015 saying. "{{tq|The result of the move request was: '''Not moved to al-Masjid al-Haram''', however an RM to further discuss a specific move to an anglicized version such as [[Great Mosque (Mecca)]] seems warranted if someone will take the initiative to start one. Discussion in the new RM should be limited to an anglicized version of this title and not dredge up issues surrounding '''al-Masjid al-Haram'''.}}"
:*WP:POVTITLE: I think the title contains enough religious POV as it is. It currently presents a disjointed Arabic rendition of ~"*Mosque (the) Sacred". I don't think that we can use Wikipedia's voice to present "The Sacred Mosque" even in transliterated Arabic. Within the article we can present the religious belief but we can't do so in our voice.
:Grammatical concerns are expressed in the thread above while concerns related to commonname are, I think, evident below:
:*[https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#tbm=bks&q=%22great+mosque+of+Mecca%22 "great mosque of Mecca"] gets "<s>About 8,260 results</s>" "About 8,970 results" in books while
:*[https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#tbm=bks&q=%22grand+mosque+of+Mecca%22 "grand mosque of Mecca"] only gets <s>"About 3,410 results"</s> "About 3,430 results" in books
::[https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#tbm=bks&q=%22sacred+mosque+of+Mecca%22 "sacred mosque of Mecca"] only "About 2,430 results" in books
:*[https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#tbm=bks&q=%22great+mosque%22+AND+%22Mecca%22 "great mosque" AND "Mecca"] gets "About 21,900 results" in books
:*[https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#tbm=bks&q=%22Al-Masjid+al-Haram%22+AND+%22Mecca%22 "Al-Masjid al-Haram" AND "Mecca"] gets "About 927 results" in books.


My arabic fellows, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't "haram" mean forbidden? [[User:EntityRrr|EntityRrr]] ([[User talk:EntityRrr|talk]]) 17:11, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
:*[https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#tbm=bks&q=%22Al-Masjid+al-Haram%22+AND+%22Mecca%22 "Al-Masjid ul-Haram" AND "Mecca"] gets "About 25 results"
::<small>''"Al-Masjid ul-Ḥaram" search added: [[User:GregKaye|Greg]][[User talk:GregKaye|Kaye]] 05:27, 3 May 2015 (UTC)</small>


== How many minarets? ==
:despite the fact that some of the references to great mosque in the first search may be associated with other great mosques around the world while still referencing Mecca, I think that the usage is still strikingly clear. [[User:GregKaye|Greg]][[User talk:GregKaye|Kaye]] 07:49, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
:::'''Comment''': please also include search for "Al-Masjid al-Haram", as the title proposed is this one and not other forms of it that include diacritics. You seemed to have supported "Al-Masjid al-Haram" in previous move request at first. Then unfortunately you changed your mind for anglicised titles which have geographic disambiguation with them and are not [[WP:CONCISE]]. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 08:14, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
:::Plus for your third search the geographic disambiguation is ''not'' needed, because "Sacred Mosque" is exclusively used for al-Masjid al-Haram since its a direct translation from its original name. "Sacred Mosque", as a proper noun, is not used for other mosques. That's an advantage that the unambiguous "Sacred Mosque" has over the other non-concise anglicisations. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 08:40, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
::::'''Comment''': Haven't seen "Sacred Mosque" used very much. In the US the New York Times and Washington Post seem to prefer Grand Mosque or Great Mosque. In the UK the guardian often uses "Holy Mosque". If we are using close to the exact untranslated title (Masjid al-Haram) why not go all the way and add the beginning alif lam (Al-Masjid al-Haram).--[[User:BoogaLouie|BoogaLouie]] ([[User talk:BoogaLouie|talk]]) 14:44, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
:::::'''Comment''': {{u|GregKaye}}, [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Grand+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CGreat+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CMasjid+al-Haram&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CGrand%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGreat%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CMasjid%20al%20-%20Haram%3B%2Cc0 Google Books Ngram Viewer's results] are not in favor of "Grand Mosque of Mecca" or "Great Mosque of Mecca". The current title "Masjid al-Haram" seems to be by far more common and seems to be growing further in popularity as of the 21st century. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 07:19, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
<s>*'''Oppose''' - There was a recent RM for this article and a counterproposal which had significant editor input. I would support this proposal but the consensus was not to move and it is too soon to be having another one.</s> [[User:Mbcap|Mbcap]] ([[User talk:Mbcap|talk]]) 15:00, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
::'''Comment''' there was '''no clear consensus''' in that requested move. But in earlier sections above, I can see a clear consensus among editors for "Al-Masjid Al-Haram" (except for their capitalization, their choice was same as this, but normally "al-" is not capitalized, hence my request for "Al-Masjid al-Haram" / "al-Masjid al-Haram"). I was not there, but supporters of the move included: {{u|MezzoMezzo}}, {{u|Pass a Method}}, {{u|GorgeCustersSabre}}, and {{u|Yakamoz51}}. We could not move only because '''''none''''' of those editors chose to write their !votes when the admin {{u|Anthony Appleyard}} asked for it in [[#Move?]] above. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 15:28, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
:::My apologies, I meant to say there was no consensus to move. [[User:Mbcap|Mbcap]] ([[User talk:Mbcap|talk]]) 17:38, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
::::{{u|Mbcap}}, it is ok no worries. We still have to agree on the optimal title. Thanks for input. You were last month '''supporting''' the title al-Masjid al-Haram (see above). [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 20:36, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
::::Ping more users for input: {{u|Mar4d}}, {{u|Xtremedood}}, {{u|FreeatlastChitchat}}, {{u|CallAng222}}. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 20:53, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
:::::[[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] The selective pinging of particular editor's, none of whom have edits in this talk page or its archive and none of whom are found mentioned in the last 500 edits of the main main page seems like a clear example of [[WP:CANVASS]]. This seems to me to be especially pronounced as you have not pinged previous contributors to the last recently closed discussion.
::::::{{u|Mar4d}}, {{u|Xtremedood}}, {{u|FreeatlastChitchat}}, and {{u|CallAng222}} seem to be active currently in articles related to Muslims, it was to notify them of this discussion. I had pinged {{u|MezzoMezzo}}, {{u|Pass a Method}}, {{u|GorgeCustersSabre}}, and {{u|Yakamoz51}} also, just above. These last 4 are the ones who discussed about "Masjid al-Haram" vs "al-Masjid al-Haram" in sections above. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 07:01, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
{{od}}
Firstly the instruction in the close of that RM had said, "{{tq|Discussion in the new RM should be limited to an anglicized version of this title and not dredge up issues surrounding al-Masjid al-Haram.}}" Following my objection to the proposal above and your notification of [[User_talk:GregKaye#Move request changed|Move request changed]] on my talk page, in context of the close, I asked you to "{{tq|to consider just withdrawing the RM or keeping it as is?}}" The only reason that an RM had not been submitted proposing a move to: [[Great Mosque (Mecca)]] was that another move had been proposed at [[Talk:Mecca#Requested move 26 April 2015]] with short lived discussion on the proposal of: [[:Mecca]] → {{no redirect|Makkah}}. That discussion ended on 30 April 2015 and you started this discussion on 1 May 2015. Again, a typically common form of the English language designation of the mosque is the "Grand Mosque of Mecca" and it is most commonly indicated to be the Grand Mosque in that locale. I personally arrived to these conclusions via my personal deliberations as the last RM progressed. Ping also closer of last thread: {{u|Mike Cline}}. [[User:GregKaye|Greg]][[User talk:GregKaye|Kaye]] 05:16, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
:I had opposed [[:Mecca]] → {{no redirect|Makkah}} per [[WP:COMMONNAME]], but that is not relevant to this discussion. Again, "Grand Mosque of Mecca" is also, yet another example of titles that do not follow Wikipedia guidelines about [[WP:CONCISE]]. It also seems to be less common than "Masjid al-Haram", per Ngram Viewer results ([https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Grand+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CGreat+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CMasjid+al-Haram&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CGrand%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGreat%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CMasjid%20al%20-%20Haram%3B%2Cc0]). So in my opinion, even the current "Masjid al-Haram" is a better title than something like "Grand Mosque of Mecca". [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 07:01, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
::[[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] in what way is {{tq|"Masjid al-Haram" ... a better title than something like "Grand Mosque of Mecca"}}. Wikipedia editing practice is based on policy-guidelines such as [[WP:ENGLISH]], [[WP:RECOGNIZABILITY]] and [[WP:NATURALNESS]]. [[User:GregKaye|Greg]][[User talk:GregKaye|Kaye]] 08:58, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
:::{{u|GregKaye}}, by [[WP:COMMONNAME]] and [[WP:CONCISE]] I am more inclined to favor "Masjid al-Haram" over something like "Grand Mosque of Mecca". [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 09:30, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
:::::[[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] As I am just writing below
:::::[https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#tbm=bks&q=%22Masjid+al-Haram%22 "Masjid al-Haram"] gets "About 5,700 results" in books while
:::::[https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#tbm=bks&q=%22Al-Masjid+al-Haram%22 "Al-Masjid al-Haram"] only gets "About 1,980 results"
:::::The first search also indicates the specifically titled book: [https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=7a6OQgAACAAJ&dq= Masjid Al-Haram]
:::::[[User:GregKaye|Greg]][[User talk:GregKaye|Kaye]] 09:41, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
*'''STRONG Support''' for rename to ''''Al Masjid ul Haram'''' and ''''Strong Oppose'''' renaming it to any translation of Arabic like sacred mosque or prophets mosque etc(gives the impression that it is the only sacred mosque and a plethora of other reasons). I am in 100% agreement to all above reasons, and I respect all the editors who have taken time to give their opinions regarding wikipedia policies. I ,being new here, have not that much knowledge about wikipedia's nomenclature policies, so therefore, I defer to my esteemed colleagues who have given their opinions above. What I do have knowledge about is Arabic grammar and the transliteration rules coined by the royal asiatic society. So please allow me to explain.
:Words in Arabic usually start with the Arabic letter Alif(consider at "A" of English) and Laam(consider it "L" of English). Which gives ''''Al'''' when transliterated into English. The Masjid is agreed upon. Now the second ''''ul''''. Well according to rules of arabic grammar every word should end with the ''''u'''' sound. Therefore the first part of this name is ''''Al-Masjidu''''. The second part is , according to the same rules, Al Haramu. Now we come to the rules for combining two words. According to rules of qualification, i.e when two words are such that one is the quality of the other, the words should be combined without change and the second word should be pronounced with a ''''stopping sound''''. Therefore when these two are combined they will be transliterated as ''''Al-Masjid ul-Haram''''. I would like to apologize for the relatively dry grammar lesson, my students also tend to snore and nod off to narnia when I am teaching grammar. I do hope that this has cleared up the confusion. I did not provide any links to the rules which I mentioned as they are simple facts just a mouseclick away. If someone wishes that I should edit my comment to include the said links, please mention it in a reply and I will provide them. [[User:FreeatlastChitchat|FreeatlastChitchat]] ([[User talk:FreeatlastChitchat|talk]]) 03:55, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
:'''Comment''' [[Great Mosque (Mecca)]] is no translation but represents the common name description of the subject in English. [[User:GregKaye|Greg]][[User talk:GregKaye|Kaye]] 05:20, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
::"[[Great Mosque (Mecca)]]" contains 3 proper nouns, and uses parentheses, because it has to use a geographic disambiguation. It is not [[WP:CONCISE]], hence not preferable, per the Wikipedia guidelines of using concise titles when available. "Al-Masjid al-Haram" has 2 nouns, is unambiguous, and doesn't use parentheses or geographic disambiguation. Hence al-Masjid al-Haram is preferable per the Wikipedia guidelines in WP:CONCISE. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 07:01, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
*<s>'''SUPPORT'''</s> move to "Al-Masjid al-Haram", per [[Al-Aqsa Mosque]], [[Al-Shuaibiyah Mosque]], [[Al-Sahibiyah Mosque]], [[Al-Rahma Mosque, Liverpool]], [[Ar-Rahma Mosque, Kiev]], [[Al-Saffahiyah Mosque]], [[Al-Qaiqan Mosque]], and many others. Per other similar transliterated article titles about mosques, which start with "al-" when the Arabic version of the title has ''al-''. '''Oppose''' anglicized titles such as "Grand Mosque of Mecca" or "Great Mosque of Mecca", because it is more common to use an Arabic transliteration to refer to al-Masjid al-Haram rather than these titles, as Ngram confirms ([https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Grand+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CGreat+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CMasjid+al-Haram&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CGrand%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGreat%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CMasjid%20al%20-%20Haram%3B%2Cc0]). The graphs show "Masjid al-Haram" is by far more common and seems to be growing in popularity further. If we do use an Arabic transliteration rather than an anglicization for the title, however, then we should go for the best option for transliteration. "Al-Masjid al-Haram" is the best option in my opinion. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 07:01, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
::''<small>edit conflict)''</small>
::[[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] You raise some useful parallels and, on the basis of these references, I think that a potentially more valid option might be [[Al-Haram Mosque]]
::*[https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=%22Al-Haram+Mosque%22&tbm=bks "Al-Haram Mosque"] gets "About 1,730 results" in books.
::At present, as well as being weak on recognizability amongst English speaking people's, [[Al-Masjid al-Haram]] also fail [[WP:NATURALNESS]] and this relates to the grammatical objections raised in the last RM. This policy/guideline presents:
::"{{tq|'''Naturalness''' – The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles. Such a title usually conveys what the subject is actually called in English.}}"
::I haven't checked found all the references but the articles at [[Special:WhatLinksHere/Masjid al-Haram]] that actually contain a link to the article begin in the listing with:
::*"{{tq|... <nowiki>[[Imam (Sunni Islam)|imam]]</nowiki> of '''the''' <nowiki>[[Masjid al-Haram|Grand mosque]] ...</nowiki>}}" in [[Antisemitism]]
::*"{{tq|the imam of '''the''' <nowiki>[[Masjid al-Haram|Grand mosque in Mecca]]</nowiki>}}" in [[Antisemitism in the Arab world]]
::*"{{tq|In 1979 '''the''' <nowiki>[[Masjid al-Haram|Grand Mosque]] ... was seized</nowiki>}}" in [[Islamism]]
::*"{{tq|in reference to the two holiest places in Islam: <nowiki>[[Masjid al-Haram]] in [[Mecca]], and [[Masjid al-Nabawi]] in [[Medina]].</nowiki>}}" in [[Monarch]]
::*"{{tq|'''The''' <nowiki>[[Masjid al-Haram]] was the first mosque, ...</nowiki>}}" in [[Mosque]]
::*"{{tq|'''the''' <nowiki>[[Masjid al-Haram]]</nowiki>}}", "{{tq|'''the''' <nowiki>[[Masjid al-Haram]]</nowiki>}}", "{{tq|<nowiki>[[Masjid al-Haram]] panorama.</nowiki>}}" and "{{tq|'''the''' <nowiki>[[Masjid al-Haram]]</nowiki>}}" in [[Mecca]]
::emphasis added. The change creates grammatical difficulties. We can say "the Grand Mosque of Mecca" or "the al-Haram Mosque" and it will make sense in English. The same does not work with, "the Al-Masjid al-Haram" which does not make sense. [[User:GregKaye|Greg]][[User talk:GregKaye|Kaye]] 08:24, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
:::{{u|GregKaye}}, "Al-Haram Mosque" also seems a good title. I would have favored it if was common. But it is not nearly as common as "Masjid al-Haram" according to Ngram ([https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Grand+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CGreat+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CMasjid+al-Haram%2CHaram+Mosque&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CGrand%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGreat%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CMasjid%20al%20-%20Haram%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CHaram%20Mosque%3B%2Cc0]). [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 09:30, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
*'''STRONGLY SUPPORT''' move to "Al-Masjid al-Haram", because it is correct in Arabic and other Arabic-titled mosques are titled like this on Wikipedia. [[User:GorgeCustersSabre|George Custer&#39;s Sabre]] ([[User talk:GorgeCustersSabre|talk]]) 08:21, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
::{{u|GorgeCustersSabre}} I missed your edit fractionally {{P}}. As mentioned "Al-Haram Mosque" would at least fit in with English grammar. It also has common use as demonstrated above though not nearly the same level of common use as "Grand Mosque of Mecca".
::The examples presented are [[Cherry picking (fallacy)|cherry picked]]. Just in Asia we also have: [[Grand Mosque (Kuwait)]], [[Grand Mosque (Dubai)]], [[Great Mosque of al-Nuri (Mosul)]], [[Great Mosque of Samarra]], [[Great Mosque of Kufa]], [[Great Mosque of Aleppo]], [[Great Mosque of Hama]], [[Great Mosque of Raqqah]], [[Great Mosque of Sana'a]], [[Great Mosque of Salé]], [[Great Mosque of Gaza]], [[Great Mosque of Nablus]], [[Grand Mosque of Bursa]], [[Grand Mosque of Mersin]], [[Grand Mosque of Tarsus]], [[Great Mosque of Diyarbakır]], [[Grand Mosque of Ganting]], [[Grand Mosque of Colombo]], [[Grand Jamia Mosque, Lahore]], [[Grand Jamia Mosque, Karachi]], [[Great Mosque of Xi'an]] and [[Grand Mosque of Taipei]]. There are nine further examples in Europe and 12 in Africa.
::[https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#tbm=bks&q=%22great+mosque+of+Mecca%22 "Great mosque of Mecca",] as demonstrated by "8,970 results" in books, is the English language common name for this subject. [[User:GregKaye|Greg]][[User talk:GregKaye|Kaye]] 08:49, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
::: Dear [[User:GregKaye|Greg]], I hope you are well. I would prefer al-Masjid al-Haram, but, yes ok, I can live with your proposed title. Regards and thanks, [[User:GorgeCustersSabre|George Custer&#39;s Sabre]] ([[User talk:GorgeCustersSabre|talk]]) 09:13, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
::::If we go by [[WP:COMMONNAME]], then as demonstrated in Ngrams above ([https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Grand+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CGreat+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CMasjid+al-Haram%2CHaram+Mosque&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CGrand%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGreat%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CMasjid%20al%20-%20Haram%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CHaram%20Mosque%3B%2Cc0]), the current title "Masjid al-Haram" is the most common and is getting more and more common. The only issue is with its correct English form to be used as title ("Masjid al-Haram" vs "Al-Masjid al-Haram"). [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 09:39, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
:::::[[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] Thank you for those results which were genuinely interesting. Applying the Ngrams search to the current issue of [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Masjid+al-Haram%2Cal-Masjid+al-Haram&case_insensitive=on&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t4%3B%2CMasjid%20al%20-%20Haram%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3BMasjid%20al%20-%20Haram%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bmasjid%20al%20-%20haram%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BMasjid%20Al%20-%20Haram%3B%2Cc0 Masjid al-Haram,al-Masjid al-Haram,] ''no'' results for "al-Masjid al-Haram" in any variant form, even appear on the scale. I predict a glitch but even so similar findings are presented in my books search results. Did you try a search on these parameters yourself? [[User:GregKaye|Greg]][[User talk:GregKaye|Kaye]] 09:52, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
::::::Yes I noticed this also. "Al-Masjid al-Haram" does not appear in Ngram graphs ([https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=%5Bal-Masjid+al-Haram%5D%2CGrand+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CGreat+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CMasjid+al-Haram%2CHaram+Mosque&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CGrand%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGreat%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CMasjid%20al%20-%20Haram%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CHaram%20Mosque%3B%2Cc0]). Perhaps some technical problem with the 2 dashes in the phrase. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 10:09, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''
:as per [[WP:COMMONNAME]]
:[https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#tbm=bks&q=%22Masjid+al-Haram%22 "Masjid al-Haram"] gets "About 5,700 results" in books while
:[https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#tbm=bks&q=%22Al-Masjid+al-Haram%22 "Al-Masjid al-Haram"] gets "About 1,980 results"
:See also specifically titled book: [https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=7a6OQgAACAAJ&dq=%22Masjid+al-Haram%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fvJFVdaIHMTVavj8gIgD&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA Masjid Al-Haram.] There is no parallel content titled "Al-Masjid al-Haram".
:as per [[WP:THE]] on similar evidence as above and as presented by {{u|Tariqabjotu}} previously on this page:
:"{{tq|The use of the Arabic title, as shown with this issue, is problematic. Because ''al-Masjid al-Haram'' means ''The Sacred Mosque'', we can't write "structures in the al-Masjid al-Haram"; we'd have to write "structures in al-Masjid al-Haram", which sounds completely unnatural in English. In some ways, it seems plausible that "the Masjid al-Haram", with the Arabic ''al'' replaced by the English ''the'' should actually be acceptable. This is much in the same way we're okay with ''the'' and ''mosque'' replacing their Arabic equivalents in "the al-Aqsa Mosque" and omitting the second ''the'' in the article name [[al-Aqsa Mosque]]. (And many sources don't even use the article ''the'' before ''al-Aqsa Mosque'', even though it introduces a grammatical issue.) .....}}"
:In this case the problems with the are compounded. See: [[WP:NATURALNESS]] and example texts above. [[User:GregKaye|Greg]][[User talk:GregKaye|Kaye]] 10:08, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
::Ok, so current title "Masjid al-Haram"? [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 10:20, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
:::In English it is most commonly known as the "Grand Mosque". The words "Grand", "Mosque" and "Mecca" are all instantly and readily recognisable and the policy / guideline at [[WP:ENGLISH]] and [[WP:UCRN]] are quite clear:
:::*"{{tq|The title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language, as you would find it in [[WP:SOURCES|reliable sources]] (for example [[Wikipedia:NCGN#Widely accepted name|other encyclopedias and reference works, scholarly journals and major news sources]]). This makes it easy to find, and easy to compare information with other sources.}}"
:::*"{{tq|Wikipedia prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in [[WP:SOURCES|reliable English-language sources]]) as such names will be the most recognizable and the most natural.}}"
:::Britannica presents the [http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/254837/Great-Mosque-of-Mecca Great Mosque of Mecca] and I think it would help readers locate the article information with most ease if we used a similar title. [[User:GregKaye|Greg]][[User talk:GregKaye|Kaye]] 11:19, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
::::{{u|GregKaye}}, as said above "Grand Mosque" is ambiguous and not clear. Most of the time it refers to other Grand Mosques. And "Grand Mosque of Mecca" fails per [[WP:CONCISE]] and [[WP:COMMONNAME]] because ngram results showed it is not as common as "Masjid al-Haram". Britannica is a poor tertiary source. Like you wrote before, there is a [[WP:RS]] book with the title "Masjid al-Haram". Most reliable sources use "Masjid al-Haram", hence recognizability of the transliterated form of the title is not an issue for those with some familiarity with the subject. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 12:59, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
:::::Within either the context or either being in Mecca or of any type of disambiguation, natural, comma-separated or parenthetical. If people in Mecca were to talk about the "Grand Mosque", other people, as long as their English was good, would know exactly what they were talking about. Similarly, if we speak of the [[Grand Mosque of Mecca]], the [[Grand Mosque, Mecca]] or the [[Grand Mosque (Mecca)]], the subject of the topic remains ''crystal'' clear. Searches on the terms "Grand Mosque" and "Mecca" get several times more results than either "Al-Masjid al-Haram" or "Masjid al-Haram" because, in English, the common name for that beautiful structure is "Grand Mosque". The only difference is that, in using this, we would be using words that readers will instantly recognise. [[User:GregKaye|Greg]][[User talk:GregKaye|Kaye]] 16:33, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
::::::GregKaye, locally in the [[Hejaz]], the mosque is almost exclusively known as al-Masjid al-Haram also in English. Speakers of English and other non-Arabic languages travel to the mosque for religious reasons and are well-aware of important Arabic terminologies. Other than Ngram, our other tool is Google Books right. And even Google Books have only [https://www.google.com/search?q=Masjid+al-Haram&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1#tbm=bks&q=%22Grand+Mosque+of+Mecca%22 "About 3,430 results"] results for "Grand Mosque of Mecca". It is more than 2000 hits lower than the results for "Masjid al-Haram". Also, can you find a reliable source which is titled "Grand Mosque of Mecca"? We do have such an example for "Masjid al-Haram". [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 17:08, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
:::::::[[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] true and this means that the total number of hits in which the phrase the "Grand Mosque" as it is used in specifically relation to the "Grand Mosque of Mecca" will be somewhere between a large upper limit 10,500 results as represented by a search on [https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Masjid+al-Haram&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1&gws_rd=cr&ei=4l1GVbKGN4PcaqmrgPAJ#tbm=bks&q=%22Grand+Mosque%22+AND+%22Mecca%22 "Grand Mosque" AND "Mecca"] and 3,430 results as represented by a search on [https://www.google.com/search?q=Masjid+al-Haram&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1#tbm=bks&q=%22Grand+Mosque+of+Mecca%22 "Grand Mosque of Mecca".] The ".. of Mecca" part of the text is just the disambiguator. "Grand Mosque" is the commonly applied description of the subject in English. [[User:GregKaye|Greg]][[User talk:GregKaye|Kaye]] 17:53, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
::::::::Ok {{u|GregKaye}} so '''no reliable secondary''' source is ''titled'' "Grand Mosque of Mecca"? I can find some reliable secondary sources in Google Books containing the phrase "Grand Mosque" in title, but they are about other Grand Mosques mostly. It is another corroboration that [[WP:RS]] does not favor "Grand Mosque of Mecca". [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 18:26, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::{{u|GregKaye}} there seems to be 3 simultaneous opposes from yourself on this RM. Please could you rectify this. [[User:Mbcap|Mbcap]] ([[User talk:Mbcap|talk]]) 11:13, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
*'''Move to the English-language name''' [[Great Mosque]] or [[Grand Mosque]], whichever is preferred (I have a slight preference for "Grand Mosque", but others think "Great Mosque" is slightly more common in sources). There's no reason at all to repeat the last RM that closed a month ago with no consensus, because it's based on the premise that we should decide what's correct in Arabic. In fact, we should use the name that is '''most common in English'''. That would be one of the two alternatives mentioned here. [[Special:Contributions/209.211.131.181|209.211.131.181]] ([[User talk:209.211.131.181|talk]]) 18:18, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
::'''Ambiguous titles''', and not so popular, as Google Books search and [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Grand+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CGreat+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CMasjid+al-Haram%2CHaram+Mosque&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CGrand%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGreat%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CMasjid%20al%20-%20Haram%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CHaram%20Mosque%3B%2Cc0 Ngram graphs] have demonstrated. Adding geographic locations make them non-concise. Reliable secondary sources do not seem to prefer "Great Mosque" or "Grand Mosque" either -- see evidences above. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 18:26, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
:::[[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] It worked out '''''in''''' the end. From the other results I knew there had to be something missing. The [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Grand+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CGreat+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CGreat+Mosque+in+Mecca%2CGrand+Mosque+in+Mecca%2CMasjid+al-Haram%2CHaram+Mosque&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CGrand%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGreat%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGreat%20Mosque%20in%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGrand%20Mosque%20in%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CMasjid%20al%20-%20Haram%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CHaram%20Mosque%3B%2Cc0 Ngram] results for the "Grand Mosque ''in'' Mecca", on its own, by far outstrips "Masjid al-Haram" in terms of common use and this is before we consider the "Great Mosque in Mecca", the "Grand Mosque of Mecca", the "Great Mosque of Mecca" and any other mention of "Great Mosque" that is in any direct way described as pertaining to "Mecca" or perhaps "Makkah". '''There is nothing ambiguous here'''. [[User:GregKaye|Greg]][[User talk:GregKaye|Kaye]] 19:00, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
::::{{u|GregKaye}}, thank you for the new Ngram now that is an interesting new evidence. Still though we have to be careful picking the optimal title. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 20:08, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
:::::An optimal title is one which is not only common but also concise and recognizable. I have begun to think that the current, "Masjid al-Haram" fulfills the Wikipedia criteria better. The only rationale to change it to "al-Masjid al-Haram" was because of Arabic grammar rules. But this article is in English, and we can always add "''the''" to the title in usage in a sentence, hence nothing that can't be fixed.
:::::After this issue resolves, users who !voted here are also welcome to discuss optimal titles for [[Al-Masjid an-Nabawi]] and [[Masjid al-Qiblatain]]. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 20:21, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
::::::One editor here, in support of your 8 April 2015 move request of [[:Masjid al-Haram]] → {{no redirect|al-Masjid al-Haram}}, said: "{{tq|I'm fluent in Arabic and agree it only makes sense as "al-Masjid al-Haram".}}" There are clearly problems with the current title. We can easily avoid such issues by moving to the subject's commonname in English. [[User:GregKaye|Greg]][[User talk:GregKaye|Kaye]] 08:38, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
*'''Strong Support''' - This is the common name and is also used by the encyclopedia of Islam. There was also a previous discussion here[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Masjid_al-Haram#There_is_no_such_thing_as_.22Masjid_al-Haram.2C.22_it.27s_.22Al-Masjid_Al-Haram.22] on this page with MezzoMezzo and GeorgeClusterSabre where the agreement was on this name. The aforementioned two editors have contributed significantly to Islam related topics so I trust that they have knowledge of this subject area. Their insight was agreeable in regards to this name.[[User:Mbcap|Mbcap]] ([[User talk:Mbcap|talk]]) 11:11, 4 May 2015 (UTC)


The fact box stipulates 7, with 6 minarets under construction. Elsewhere it says that after the two last minarets were built, the number is eleven.
[[User:Mbcap|Mbcap]] This is honestly not how its done. Please feel free to conduct your own research and present findings. For me the research root I took started with a search on:
*[https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=(%22Masjid+al-Haram%22+OR+%22al-Masjid+al-Haram%22)+AND+%22holy+sites%22+and+-Wikipedia+AND+-demolishes+AND+-demolosh+AND+-demolishing ("Masjid al-Haram" OR "al-Masjid al-Haram") AND "holy sites" and -Wikipedia AND -demolishes AND -demolosh AND -demolishing]
The reason I did this was to check the content of the lead of [[Arabic definite article]] which claims.
*"{{tq|Unlike most other particles in Arabic, al- is always prefixed to another word and it never stands alone. Consequently, most dictionaries will not list it as a separate word, and it is almost invariably ignored in collation.}}"
My purpose was to see how the Mosque was presented at in any listings of holy sites to see how it was presented from the beginning point of any a website title. I found:
*http://islam.ru/en/content/news/masjid-al-haram-workers-start-training-improve-skills
:gives: [https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=site:islam.ru%2Fen%2F+%22MASJID+AL+HARAM+WORKERS+START+TRAINING+TO+IMPROVE+SKILLS%22 Masjid Al Haram workers start training to improve skills ...]
*http://navedz.com/tag/masjid-al-haram/
:gives: [https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=site%3Anavedz.com%2F+MASJID+AL+HARAM&oq=site%3Anavedz.com%2F+MASJID+AL+HARAM&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i58.12814j0j4&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8 Masjid Al Haram - navedz.com]
*http://counterjihadreport.com/tag/masjid-al-haram/
:[https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=site:http:%2F%2Fcounterjihadreport.com%2F+Masjid+al-Haram Masjid al-Haram | The Counter Jihad Report]
*http://islaminstalbans.com/holysites_makkah.html
:gives listings in page text: "{{tq|Masjid al-Jinn ...Masjid al-Aisha (Ta'neem) ... Masjid al-Bay'ah ... Masjid al-Haram ... Masjid al-Bay'ah}}"
*http://freshtraveldestinations.com/masjid-al-haram-mecca-saudi-arabia/
:gives: [https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=site%3Afreshtraveldestinations.com%2Fmasjid-al-haram-mecca-saudi-arabia%2F+Masjid+al-Haram+%E2%80%93+Mecca+%E2%80%93+Saudi+Arabia&oq=site%3Afreshtraveldestinations.com%2Fmasjid-al-haram-mecca-saudi-arabia%2F+Masjid+al-Haram+%E2%80%93+Mecca+%E2%80%93+Saudi+Arabia&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i58.12860j0j4&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8 Masjid al-Haram - Mecca - Saudi Arabia | Fresh Travel ...]
*I honestly think that what is being proposed is quite simply not how things are done. It goes against commonname to call it the "{{tq|Al-Masjid al-Haram}}" and this is not how it appears in listings and, as perhaps has been confirmed, that "al-" "{{tq|is almost invariably ignored in collation.}}" [[User:GregKaye|Greg]][[User talk:GregKaye|Kaye]] 14:42, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
::[[User:GregKaye|Greg]] I have no idea what that google search entails but the links are all either blogs or just websites. They are not reliable sources. The following books use Al-Masjid Al-Haram:
::*Encyclopaedic Dictionary of Religion
::*Historic Cities of the Islamic World
::*Encyclopaedia of Islam
::*The Muslim World League Journal
::*Encyclopaedia of the Qur'an
::*The Mosque and Its Early Development
::*Religious New Year's Celebrations
::*Wisdom's Journey: Living the Spirit of Islam in the Modern World
::*The Globalization of Ethics: Religious and Secular Perspectives
::*The Road East: An International Affair
::*Contemporary Muslim Apocalyptic Literature
::*World Religions in Practice: A Comparative Introduction
::*The Dome of the Rock


::I am happy with either name with or without the indefinite article. I prefer this one because it is used by Brill publishers and is also a more complete name. [[User:Mbcap|Mbcap]] ([[User talk:Mbcap|talk]]) 15:59, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
What is correct? [[User:Mumroos|Mumroos]] ([[User talk:Mumroos|talk]]) 17:37, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
:::{{u|Mbcap}} Where and how do they use it? Who uses it as a title or at the beginning of a title as is being proposed here? 16:05, 4 May 2015
:::I honestly think that talk of reliable sources is just word games. Wikipedia is just a website and yet many contributors to the net make sincere attempts to present accurate and coherent content and I have presented relevant results. I many cases I would have more faith in the contributors to these "just websites" often with specialist interest, than many other sources. Which of the sites do you consider to be a [[blog]]? [[User:GregKaye|Greg]][[User talk:GregKaye|Kaye]] 07:55, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

*The [https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Inh_WOfTLfAC&pg=PA484&dq=%22Masjid+Al-Haram%22+%22Encyclopaedic+Dictionary+of+Religion%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=vJpHVff8E4-raevhgNgF&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Masjid%20Al-Haram%20%3A%20the%20grand%20Masjid&f=false Encyclopaedic Dictionary of Religion: G-P] presents:
:'''Masjid al-Haram''' : The Grand Masjid on Makkah. The Ka'bah (the Qiblah of the Muslims) is situated within it.

:I would like to invite anyone here or any visitor to do their own research into this issue, perhaps by using a search of books such as:
:*[https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#tbm=bks&q=(%22al-Haram%22+OR+((%22Great+Mosque%22+OR+%22Grand+Mosque%22)+AND+Mecca))+AND+(dictionary+OR+encyclopedia+OR+encyclopaedia) ("al-Haram" OR (("Great Mosque" OR "Grand Mosque") AND Mecca)) AND (dictionary OR encyclopedia OR encyclopaedia)]
:[[User:GregKaye|Greg]][[User talk:GregKaye|Kaye]] 17:04, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' This thread will never achieve consensus for anything because it's impossible to tell what the proposal is. The thread needs more organization, and the option of ''al-Masjid al-Haram'' needs to be taken out of the question because it was already it was already discussed and rejected last month for valid, policy-based reasons. -- '''[[User:Tariqabjotu|<font color="black">tariq</font><font color="gray">abjotu</font>]]''' 02:32, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
::'''Comment''': {{u|tariqabjotu}}, users above i.e. Fauzan, GorgeCustersSabre, BoogaLouie, FreeatlastChitchat, Mbcap, and myself, have all shown clear support for the move to "Al-Masjid al-Haram". Only GregKaye and an IP are the opposers, they want to propose contrived anglicized titles. But '''there seems to be a clear consensus for "Al-Masjid al-Haram"''', as of now. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 09:56, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
:::Yes, after blatant canvassing from you. But thankfully this is not a vote. The arguments in favor of the move, as they were the month before, are simply that the proposed title makes more sense in Arabic. Never was and never will be a valid argument. Please stop beating the dead horse here. -- '''[[User:Tariqabjotu|<font color="black">tariq</font><font color="gray">abjotu</font>]]''' 11:07, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
::*{{u|Khestwol}} as you yourself have commented below "{{tq|I however can now agree that "Masjid al-Haram" represents a more common usage than "Al-Masjid al-Haram" and appears more [[WP:NATURAL]].}}" What more needs to be said. You objection now appear to me to be gaming. I have already [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMasjid_al-Haram&type=revision&diff=660980216&oldid=660973494 explained to you] that [[WP:CONSENSUS]] should be understood in the context that it "is accepted as the best method to achieve [[Wikipedia:Goal|our (that's Wikipedia's) goals]]" and that no other agenda matters. You have not presented a single policy/guidance based reason to support this move. Your interventions at this stage with no valid argument to present are continuing to be disruptive.
:::As you will know if you have paid any attention to [https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#tbm=bks&q=(%22al-Haram%22+OR+((%22Great+Mosque%22+OR+%22Grand+Mosque%22)+AND+Mecca))+AND+(dictionary+OR+encyclopedia+OR+encyclopaedia) results presented,] there is nothing contrived [[User:GregKaye|Greg]][[User talk:GregKaye|Kaye]] 11:16, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
::::{{yo|GregKaye}} your one-side contribution to this thread and insisting on anglicized names that specialized sources on religion don't use in their titles, is not a constructive contribution. Mbcap has provided a list of some reliable sources above, which all use "Masjid al-Haram". One example was [https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Inh_WOfTLfAC&pg=PA484&dq=%22Masjid+Al-Haram%22+%22Encyclopaedic+Dictionary+of+Religion%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=vJpHVff8E4-raevhgNgF&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Masjid%20Al-Haram%20%3A%20the%20grand%20Masjid&f=false Encyclopaedic Dictionary of Religion: G-P]. Your example, [[Britannica]] is not a specialized source on religion or on Islam, and its choice for title can be easily ignored. Once again, searching for broken phrases and combining them to form contrived non-proper names, does not help much in selecting a proper name for the mosque that we can use as article title. As it is illustrated with an example in the below section, your way of doing it is like searching for "Home" while picking a title for [[10 Downing Street]]. [https://www.google.com/search?q=home&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1#tbm=bks&q=%22Home%22 Google Books search for "Home"] gives about 300 million results. But "10 Downing Street" has only about [https://www.google.com/search?q=10+Downing+Street&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1#tbm=bks&q=%2210+Downing+Street%22 150,000 results]. So do you support to move "10 Downing Street" to "[[Home (British Prime Minister)]]", or "[[Home of the Prime Minister]]" etc? If so, no one will agree with your proposals. That is why no one but 209.211.131.181 agreed with you on this page. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 17:42, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
:::Not "Anglicised" names. English names. Commonly used English names for an English Encyclopedia as are used by most other sources. Just 5 days ago you [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Masjid_al-Haram&diff=660232403&oldid=655569571 proposed "Anglicised names"]. [[User:GregKaye|Greg]][[User talk:GregKaye|Kaye]] 18:16, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
{{od}}{{yo|GregKaye}} [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Grand+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CGreat+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CMasjid+al-Haram%2CHaram+Mosque%2CSacred+Mosque&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CGrand%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGreat%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CMasjid%20al%20-%20Haram%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CHaram%20Mosque%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CSacred%20Mosque%3B%2Cc0 "Masjid al-Haram" is common enough in English per Google Ngram]. It does not become a non-English word just because you say so. My earlier proposal to "Sacred Mosque" (proper noun) was purely based per [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. But as you can see I had withdrawn it. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 20:47, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
:{{yo|Khestwol}} Why did you exclude "Great Mosque in Mecca" from your "{{tq|common enough}}" Ngrams search? You are making selective comparisons. [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Grand+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CGreat+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CMasjid+al-Haram%2CHaram+Mosque%2CSacred+Mosque%2CGrand+Mosque+in+Mecca&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CGrand%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGreat%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CMasjid%20al%20-%20Haram%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CHaram%20Mosque%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CSacred%20Mosque%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGrand%20Mosque%20in%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0 Here] is a more inclusive version of the search. The common name of the subject is either "Great Mosque" or "Grand Mosque" as related to the mosque in Mecca. Please see [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Grand+Mosque%2CGreat+Mosque%2CMasjid+al-Haram%2CSacred+Mosque&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CGrand%20Mosque%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGreat%20Mosque%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CMasjid%20al%20-%20Haram%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CSacred%20Mosque%3B%2Cc0 Ngrams] on: "{{tq|Grand Mosque,Great Mosque,Masjid al-Haram,Sacred Mosque}}". Many of the publications that use these terms will use them in relation to the "Great Mosque" / the "Grand Mosque" in Mecca while some publications may alternately or additionally use these terms in relation to other Great Mosques or Grand Mosques. [[User:GregKaye|Greg]][[User talk:GregKaye|Kaye]] 07:31, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
::{{u|GregKaye}}, again not sure what you are searching for in your Ngrams? "Grand Mosque" and "Great Mosque" returns results for other mosques most of the time. So you are searching for all mosques that have been called "Grand Mosque" or "Great Mosque". "Masjid al-Haram" and "Sacred Mosque" (proper noun) on the other hand only return results for this mosque that this article is about. Searching in case sensitive "Sacred Mosque" returns results for this mosque only. Google Ngram is case-sensitive so returns results for "Masjid al-Haram". [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Grand+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CGreat+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CMasjid+al-Haram%2CHaram+Mosque%2CSacred+Mosque%2CGrand+Mosque+in+Mecca&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CGrand%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGreat%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CMasjid%20al%20-%20Haram%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CHaram%20Mosque%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CSacred%20Mosque%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGrand%20Mosque%20in%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0 That is why I included "Sacred Mosque", in the Ngram]. Most of your options are not suitable [[WP:CONCISE]] titles, but contrived descriptions. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 08:28, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
*'''WITHDRAW MOVE REQUEST, KEEP THE CURRENT TITLE "Masjid al-Haram"'''. I have reached the conclusion that ''the'' "Masjid al-Haram" is the optimal title for this page, and most other !voters who supported the move to "Al-Masjid al-Haram" also seem to have expressed that the current title "Masjid al-Haram" is fine too. '''So per consensus we can keep the current title "Masjid al-Haram"'''. On Wikipedia, we can from now on use '''''the''''' "Masjid al-Haram" (and for consistency with its other closely associated mosque, we can also maybe use '''''the''''' "[[Masjid an-Nabawi]]"). Thanks to all for !voting. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 11:37, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
::Shouldn't an uninvoled user/admin close this? They would be better at determining consensus. --[[User:Fauzan|<span style="color:#2F4F4F">Fauzan</span>]][[User talk:Fauzan#top|<sup style="margin-left:0.5px;color:#BDB76B">✆ talk</sup>]][[Special:EmailUser/Fauzan|<sub style="margin-left:-26.5px;color:#BDB76B">✉ mail</sub>]] 12:04, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
:::{{yo|Fauzan}} yes I agree. An uninvolved admin would be at a better position to close this. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 14:29, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[WP:RM|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div><!-- Template:RM bottom -->

== What would be the best title option to represent common name usage? ==

Evidence is provided in [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Grand+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CGreat+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CGreat+Mosque+in+Mecca%2CGrand+Mosque+in+Mecca%2CMasjid+al-Haram%2Cal-Haram+Mosque&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CGrand%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGreat%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGreat%20Mosque%20in%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGrand%20Mosque%20in%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CMasjid%20al%20-%20Haram%3B%2Cc0 Ngram] results and in search results (in these cases from ''books'') as follows:
*[https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#tbm=bks&q=%22great+mosque%22+AND+%22Mecca%22 "great mosque" AND "Mecca"] gets "About 21,900 results"
*[https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#tbm=bks&q=%22grand+mosque+in+Mecca%22 "grand mosque in Mecca"] gets "About 17,100 results"
*[https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#tbm=bks&q=%22grand+mosque%22+AND+%22Mecca%22 "grand mosque" AND "Mecca"] gets "About 10,500 results"
*[https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#tbm=bks&q=%22great+mosque+in+Mecca%22 "great mosque in Mecca"] gets "About 9,160 results"
*[https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#tbm=bks&q=%22great+mosque+of+Mecca%22 "great mosque of Mecca"] gets "About 8,930 results"
*[https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#tbm=bks&q=%22Masjid+al-Haram%22 "Masjid al-Haram"] gets "About 5,690 results"
Options are (but are not limited to):
*[[Great Mosque of Mecca]];
*[[Great Mosque, Mecca]];
*[[Great Mosque (Mecca)]];
*[[Grand Mosque of Mecca]];
*[[Grand Mosque, Mecca]] and
*[[Grand Mosque (Mecca)]].
Britannica, Inc. presents the titling: [http://www.britannica.com/search?query=Great+mosque+mecca Great Mosque of Mecca (mosque, Mecca, Saudi Arabia)]

IMO at least accurate optional titles might even include "Spectacular Mosque" which certainly seems to me to be accurate, especially in comparison to some religious buildings in, for instance, [[:File:Jerusalem Church of the Holy Sepulchre (2541789139).jpg|Jerusalem]]. None-the-less, either "Great" and "Grand" could serve as very accurate common name descriptors. Are there any suggestions here that editors either particularly support or particularly oppose. [[User:GregKaye|Greg]][[User talk:GregKaye|Kaye]] 08:04, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
:I think we could not agree on a [[WP:CONCISE]] anglicization for the mosque. Searching for broken phrases and combining them, does not help much in selecting a [[proper name]] for the mosque so that we can then use it as article title. [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Grand+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CGreat+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CGreat+Mosque+in+Mecca%2CGrand+Mosque+in+Mecca%2CMasjid+al-Haram%2CHaram+Mosque&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CGrand%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGreat%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGreat%20Mosque%20in%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGrand%20Mosque%20in%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CMasjid%20al%20-%20Haram%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CHaram%20Mosque%3B%2Cc0 "Grand Mosque in Mecca"] was one option, but that is so superfluously long. "Grand Mosque in Mecca" is mostly used to describe the mosque within the body of the books, sometimes preceded by "Masjid al-Haram". I have not seen "Grand Mosque in Mecca" used in titles of secondary sources.
:"Masjid al-Haram" on the other hand is concise. And so many reliable sources, both secondary and tertiary (some are mentioned above), commonly prefer to use "Masjid al-Haram" even in their titles. So why do you want to anglicize it? I have fixed the grammar problem within the body of the article in [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Masjid_al-Haram&diff=660649658&oldid=660627439 this edit]. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 15:25, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
::I however can now agree that "Masjid al-Haram" represents a more common usage than "Al-Masjid al-Haram" and appears more [[WP:NATURAL]]. But if we leave this title as is i.e. "Masjid al-Haram", then I also recomment moving [[Al-Masjid an-Nabawi]] to [[Masjid an-Nabawi]] per [[WP:CONSISTENCY]] between the 2 holiest mosques. Is that an agreeable compromise between all parties? [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]])
[[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] Why do you want to present the Arabic title and for what agenda? You know the guidelines on the use of English. In an number of options a clear and remarkably recognisable name is presented. The options presented represent the ways that are by far the most regularly used. Why do you want to use something different? Why? [[User:GregKaye|Greg]][[User talk:GregKaye|Kaye]] 16:33, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
:You're misrepresenting. "Masjid al-Haram" is a common [[loanword]] in English from Arabic and a commonly used English [[proper name]]. I only want to use the name that is most suitable per the WP guidelines. Most users have !voted in favor of "Al-Masjid al-Haram". So i think it will be per consensus if the move request results in move. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 17:07, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
::You are an experienced editor and I am surprised at your actions. Your last RM recently closed (as of 8 April 2015) with the statement that "{{tq|an RM to further discuss a specific move to an anglicized version such as Great Mosque (Mecca) seems warranted if someone will take the initiative to start one. Discussion in the new RM should be limited to an anglicized version of this title and not dredge up issues surrounding al-'''Masjid al-Haram'''.}}" Regardless of this and regardless of recommendations to withdraw, you have started the above RM. The guidelines are to use the most commonly recognisable form of title. If I were to ask people to identify the topic of the "Masjid al-Haram" and the "Great Mosque of Mecca" which one do you think would best enable people to identify the subject? The answer here should be blatantly obvious here. We are dealing with commonly recognisable name. [https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#tbm=bks&q=(%22al-Haram%22+OR+((%22Great+Mosque%22+OR+%22Grand+Mosque%22)+AND+Mecca))+AND+(dictionary+OR+encyclopedia+OR+encyclopaedia) Look!] Please, just [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Grand+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CGreat+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CGreat+Mosque+in+Mecca%2CGrand+Mosque+in+Mecca%2CMasjid+al-Haram%2Cal-Haram+Mosque&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CGrand%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGreat%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGreat%20Mosque%20in%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGrand%20Mosque%20in%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CMasjid%20al%20-%20Haram%3B%2Cc0 look.]
::You have just stated, "{{tq|I however can now agree that "Masjid al-Haram" represents a more common usage than "Al-Masjid al-Haram" and appears more WP:NATURAL}}" and then you say "{{tq|i think it will be per consensus if the move request results in move}}". If you thought that the move is wrong then just withdraw your against recommendation and unsubstantiated request. Notably other editors have withdrawn their arguments but not their !votes. Please be aware that [[WP:CONSENSUS]] "is accepted as the best method to achieve [[Wikipedia:Goal|our (that's Wikipedia's) goals]]". No other agenda matters. [[User:GregKaye|Greg]][[User talk:GregKaye|Kaye]] 17:56, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
:::No wonder only 1 person agreed with your insistence on anglicising this title. I am still wondering what is your proposal for [[Al-Masjid an-Nabawi]]? [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 18:07, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
::::Another wonder is why people have been voting and proposing without basis in policy. My insistence that Wikipedia's policy / guidance be validly followed with regard to the use of commonly recognisable names. Which of the six titles mentioned would you see as most applicable? [[User:GregKaye|Greg]][[User talk:GregKaye|Kaye]] 02:08, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
:::{{gi|If I were to ask people to identify the topic of the "Masjid al-Haram" and the "Great Mosque of Mecca" which one do you think would best enable people to identify the subject? }}
:::While I agree that ''al-Masjid al-Haram'' has already, and very recently, been discussed as a proposed option, and should not be discussed again for that reason (and for the policy reasons discussed), I think your understanding of "recognizability" is too extreme. Recognizability is only to the extent that people familiar with the topic would be able to identify that. I imagine some people, like myself, feel the name "Great Mosque of Mecca" is a bit contrived, used to help people who don't know the name of the mosque to know what's being discussed. I don't think recognizability is meant to be used for those types of things, or else [[10 Downing Street]] might be at [[Home of British Prime Minister]]. I'm fine with the position regarding sources, but not much regarding the question I highlighted above. -- '''[[User:Tariqabjotu|<font color="black">tariq</font><font color="gray">abjotu</font>]]''' 02:30, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
{{od}}
{{u|Tariqabjotu}} There is little comparison with regard to the example you give.
*[https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#tbm=nws&q=%2210+downing+street%22 "10 downing street"] gets "About 38,700 results"
:[https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#tbm=nws&q=%22home+of+the+british+prime+minister%22 "home of the british prime minister"] gets "About 1,750 results"
:[https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=%22home+of+the+prime+minister%22&tbm=nws "home of the prime minister"] gets "About 830 results"
:10 Downing Street is by far most commonly described as 10 Downing Street.
:The Great Mosque is by far most commonly described as the Great Mosque.
:[[User:GregKaye|Greg]][[User talk:GregKaye|Kaye]] 16:58, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
::Yeah. Ok? Did you get to the last sentence of the comment you responded to? -- '''[[User:Tariqabjotu|<font color="black">tariq</font><font color="gray">abjotu</font>]]''' 19:38, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
:Compare [https://www.google.com/search?q=Propionibacterium+acnes Propionibacterium acnes] and [https://www.google.com/search?q=bacteria+causing+acne bacteria causing acne]. Or [https://www.google.com/search?q=Mangifera+indica Mangifera indica] with [https://www.google.com/search?q=mango+tree Mango tree]. Or [https://www.google.com/search?q=Barack+Obama Barack Obama] with [https://www.google.com/search?q=current+president+of+america current president of america]. You see, a line needs to be drawn between descriptive indicators and proper names. Tariq hits the nail on the head. "''Recognizability is only to the extent that people familiar with the topic would be able to identify that.''" --[[User:Fauzan|<span style="color:#2F4F4F">Fauzan</span>]][[User talk:Fauzan#top|<sup style="margin-left:0.5px;color:#BDB76B">✆ talk</sup>]][[Special:EmailUser/Fauzan|<sub style="margin-left:-26.5px;color:#BDB76B">✉ mail</sub>]] 17:11, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

===6 Anglicized options in this section===
{{u|GregKaye}}, what exactly makes any of your 6 options better than "Masjid al-Haram" or even "Sacred Mosque" (proper noun)? Both "Masjid al-Haram" and "Sacred Mosque" seem '''more common''' per [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Grand+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CGreat+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CMasjid+al-Haram%2CHaram+Mosque%2CSacred+Mosque&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CGrand%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGreat%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CMasjid%20al%20-%20Haram%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CHaram%20Mosque%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CSacred%20Mosque%3B%2Cc0 Google Ngram]. Besides, we have to choose a title as article title, preferably a [[WP:CONCISE]] proper noun. We do not have to choose a contrived descriptory phrase as title. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 21:12, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
===English names===
Within policy and guideline we find:
*[[Wikipedia:Article titles#Use commonly recognizable names]] aka [[WP:UCRN]] states: "{{tq|Wikipedia prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in [[WP:SOURCES|reliable English-language sources]]) as such names will be the most recognizable and the most natural.}}"
*[[Wikipedia:Article_titles#English-language titles]] states: "{{tq|On the English Wikipedia, article titles are written using the English language.}}"
*[[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)]] aka [[WP:ENGLISH]] states: "{{tq|The title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language, as you would find it in [[WP:SOURCES|reliable sources]]}}
Suggested titles do "{{tq|use the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language}}", primarily "Great Mosque" a second most prevalently used option being "Grand Mosque". [[User:GregKaye|Greg]][[User talk:GregKaye|Kaye]] 08:03, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
:We have gone through this several times as of now. These names refer to other mosques most of the time. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 08:13, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
::Yes we have. Even on its own, [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Grand+Mosque+in+Mecca%2CMasjid+al-Haram&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CGrand%20Mosque%20in%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CMasjid%20al%20-%20Haram%3B%2Cc0 "Grand Mosque in Mecca" gets more results than "Masjid al-Haram".] [[User:GregKaye|Greg]][[User talk:GregKaye|Kaye]] 12:45, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
:::Is that your 7th proposal? [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 12:48, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
::::If you are taking "Grand Mosque in Mecca" as your new, 7th option, I have to strongly oppose. Firstly it is not [[WP:CONCISE]]. {{tq|The goal of conciseness is to balance brevity with sufficient information to identify the topic to a person familiar with the subject area.}} "Masjid al-Haram" is 100% familiar to a person familiar with its subject area. The title should be no longer than necessary to identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects, like "Masjid al-Haram" is. Also, "Grand Mosque in Mecca" is a contrived description for the mosque, not a real title that any secondary source has used as its title. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 13:21, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
:UCRN and ENGLISH, refer to the most common ''name''. Now Grand/great mosque is used both as a name and a descriptive indicator, the proper name ''is'' (al-)Masjid al-Haram. Directly below [[Wikipedia:Article_titles#English-language titles]] is [[WP:UE]] states {{tq|"Names not originally in a Latin alphabet ... '''must''' be transliterated"}} (emphasis as is). --[[User:Fauzan|<span style="color:#2F4F4F">Fauzan</span>]][[User talk:Fauzan#top|<sup style="margin-left:0.5px;color:#BDB76B">✆ talk</sup>]][[Special:EmailUser/Fauzan|<sub style="margin-left:-26.5px;color:#BDB76B">✉ mail</sub>]] 17:27, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
::{{u|Fauzan}} the [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Grand+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CGreat+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CGreat+Mosque+in+Mecca%2CGrand+Mosque+in+Mecca%2CMasjid+al-Haram%2Cal-Haram+Mosque&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CGrand%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGreat%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGreat%20Mosque%20in%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGrand%20Mosque%20in%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CMasjid%20al%20-%20Haram%3B%2Cc0 Ngrams] search that I presented was case sensitive. The main content of presentation is either for "Grand Mosque" or "Great Mosque". [[User:GregKaye|Greg]][[User talk:GregKaye|Kaye]] 07:09, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
:::{{u|GregKaye}} please see [[WP:MOSAR]]. "{{tq|If there is no primary transcription, a standard transliteration is used...}}" Here in our case, there is '''''clearly no primary transcription''''' ('''anglicization''') because: "{{tq|A word has a primary transcription (anglicization) if at least 75% of all references in English use the same transcription, or if a reference shows that the individual self-identified with a particular transcription...}}" We simply have to '''standard transliterate''' the title into ''Masjid al-Haram'' and use this title. Cheers, [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 09:07, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

== haram=4bidn ithout ==

. <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/213.49.104.96|213.49.104.96]] ([[User talk:213.49.104.96|talk]]) 09:36, 25 March 2016 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Requested move 1 November 2016 ==

<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[WP:requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

The result of the move request was: '''Moved to [[Great Mosque of Mecca]] &nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 13:21, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
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[[:Masjid al-Haram]] → {{no redirect|Great Mosque of Mecca}} – [[WP:COMMONNAME]] [[User:Yerevantsi|<font color="red">'''Ե'''</font><font color="black">րևանցի</font>]] [[User talk:Yerevantsi|<sup>talk</sup>]] 19:23, 1 November 2016 (UTC) <small>--'''''Relisting.''''' [[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span>HairedGirl]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 22:51, 23 November 2016 (UTC)</small>

Other options include:
*[[Grand Mosque]]
*[[Grand Mosque, Mecca]]
*[[Grand Mosque of Mecca]]
*[[Great Mosque, Mecca]]
*[[Great Mosque of Mecca]] <small>(e.g. [https://www.britannica.com/topic/Great-Mosque-of-Mecca Encyclopedia Britannica] )</small>
Google Scholar results:
*"Great Mosque" Mecca -- 4,580 results[https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22Great+Mosque%22+Mecca+&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=1%2C5]
*"Grand Mosque" Mecca -- 3,170 results[https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22Grand+Mosque%22+Mecca+&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=1%2C5]
*"Masjid al-Haram" Mecca -- 1,320 results[https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22Masjid+al-Haram%22+Mecca+&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=1%2C5]

*'''Support''' either [[Grand Mosque]] or [[Great Mosque of Mecca]] (in order of preference). There's a move request above, plus subsequent discussion, that should have resulted in this page being moved to an English-language title, but even if the move request above didn't support moving to an English-language title, it still should be moved to an English-language title. [[Special:Contributions/64.105.98.115|64.105.98.115]] ([[User talk:64.105.98.115|talk]]) 04:17, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
**'''Comment''': I think "Grand Mosque of Mecca" and "Great Mosque of Mecca" violates [[WP:CONCISENESS]]. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 15:05, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
*'''Support''' any move to English but preferably [[Great Mosque of Mecca]] as nom, per https://www.britannica.com/topic/Great-Mosque-of-Mecca, per [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. [[User:In ictu oculi|In ictu oculi]] ([[User talk:In ictu oculi|talk]]) 08:16, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
**I think "Great Mosque of Mecca" and "Grand Mosque of Mecca" violates [[WP:CONCISENESS]]. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 15:05, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' as per the Wikipedia policy at [[WP:MOSAR]], which also allows for using the Arabic phonetic transliteration rather than purely translating into English. As the basic transliteration "Masjid al-Haram" is common enough, I think there is no reason to switch over to using the pure English-language translation, especially when it is not clear which one of the possible English translations should be chosen in the first place. On the other hand, as far as the English translations, in my opinion, the most suitable English translation is "Sacred Mosque" rather than any of the two proposals (Grand Mosque of Mecca or Great Mosque of Mecca), because:<br>1.) As a proper noun, "Sacred Mosque" refers to only the Masjid al-Haram, and no other mosque in the world.<br>2.) "Sacred Mosque" is a direct English translation from the original Arabic name "Masjid al-Haram".<br>3.) As "Sacred Mosque" does not have to add the word "Mecca" to its title, it is more [[WP:CONCISE]] than any of the proposals, which have to add the word "Mecca" for disambiguation, thereby reducing conciseness. [[User:Khestwol|Khestwol]] ([[User talk:Khestwol|talk]]) 08:20, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
::Note that, also per [[WP:MOSAR]] -which by the way is still a proposal-, an English translation is preferred over a transliteration. --[[User:HyperGaruda|HyperGaruda]] ([[User talk:HyperGaruda|talk]]) 08:57, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - [[WP:MOSAR]] is still a proposal and not an "official" policy. Regardless, [[WP:MOSAR]] states common English translation is preferred over all other formats and per [[WP:COMMONNAME]], support the proposal. Regards—[[User:UY Scuti|<font color="CornflowerBlue" face="Times">'''UY Scuti'''</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:UY Scuti|<font color="Green" face= "Times">Talk</font>]]</sup> 06:40, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
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:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:RM bottom -->

== The Black Stone is believed [...] ==

I edited the phrase "The Black Stone is believed to be the only remnant of the original structure made by Abraham." In this edit [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Great_Mosque_of_Mecca&diff=prev&oldid=767749177]. It was changed back by reversion by {{reply to|SpyButeo}} in this edit [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Great_Mosque_of_Mecca&diff=next&oldid=767749177]. SpyButeo did you understand the problem I was faced with? I think I could have also put a [[Template:Who]] next to believed, would you be against that? I think I tried to fix a problem I saw - non-NPOV - and you reverted seemingly without addressing the concern.--[[User:Dwarf Kirlston]] - [[User Talk:Dwarf Kirlston|talk]] 14:35, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
: '''Agree''' with suggestion. [[User:SpyButeo|SpyButeo]] ([[User talk:SpyButeo|talk]]) 13:59, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120111215050/http://www.altmuslim.com/a/a/a/as_hajj_begins_more_changes_and_challenges_in_store to http://www.altmuslim.com/a/a/a/as_hajj_begins_more_changes_and_challenges_in_store/

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== Different definitions of ''Ḥarām'', and rename this article as "Al-Haram Mosque"? ==
{{ping|Khestwol|Onceinawhile}} ''[[Ḥ-R-M|Ḥarām]]'' ({{lang-ar|حَـرَام}}) can mean '[[Ban (law)|Forbidden]]'<ref name="Adamec 2009 102">{{cite book |last=Adamec |first=Ludwig |title=Historical Dictionary of Islam, 2nd Edition |year=2009| publisher=[[Scarecrow Press]], Inc. |location=[[Lanham, Maryland]] |isbn=9780810861619 |page=102}}</ref> or '[[Sacred]]', so ''Al-Masjid al-Ḥarām'' ({{lang-ar|ٱلْـمَـسْـجِـد الْـحَـرَام}}) can mean "The Forbidden Mosque" or "The Sacred Mosque".<ref name="Al-Modarresi 2016">{{cite book |author=Mohammad Taqi al-Modarresi |authorlink=Mohammad Taqi al-Modarresi |title=The Laws of Islam |publisher=Enlight Press |isbn=978-0994240989 |url=http://almodarresi.com/en/books/pdf/TheLawsofIslam.pdf |date=26 March 2016 |access-date=22 December 2017 |ref=Modarresi |language=[[English language|English]]}}</ref>{{rp|471}} I see that because ''Al-Masjid al-Ḥarām'' is not in the [[English language]], there is an issue with renaming this article as such, but even though "Al-Haram Mosque" might be less popular, it is [[Wikipedia:Neutrality|WP:neutral]] between the different definitions of ''Ḥarâm'', especially in the English language, and we do have a [[mosque]] that is similarly prominent, albeit to a lesser extent, and named in a similar way to "Al-Haram Mosque", that is [[Al-Aqsa Mosque]], which makes use of the Arabic name ({{lang-ar|ٱلْـمَـسْـجِـد الْاَقْـصَى|Al-Masjid al-Aqṣā}}) in an English manner. [[User:Leo1pard|Leo1pard]] ([[User talk:Leo1pard|talk]]) 07:20, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

If [[Al-Aqsa Mosque]] does not have to be renamed "The Farthest Mosque," which is what the [[Arabic name]] means in the [[English language]], then why should this article have to be named "Great Mosque of Mecca" or "Grand Mosque of Mecca," considering that the word ''Ḥaram'' ({{lang-ar|حَـرَم}}) or ''Ḥarām'' ({{lang-ar|حَـرَام}}) is commonly used for this mosque, that Arabic for 'great' or 'grand' would be ''Kabīr'' ({{lang-ar|كَـبِـيـر}}) or ''Akbar'' ({{lang-ar|أَكْـبَـر}}) (like for the [[Great Mosque of Kairouan]]), and that relatively few people, if any, would use ''Kabīr'' or ''Akbar'' for this mosque? I see that this website used ''Al-Masjid al-Kabīr fī Makkah al-Mukarramah'' ({{lang-ar|اَلْـمَـسْـجِـد الْـكَـبِـيـر فِي مَـكَّـة الْـمُـكَـرَّمَـة}}, "The Great Mosque in [[Makkah]] the Highly Honoured"),<ref name="Sabeena">{{cite web |author=Sabeena |title=المسجد الكبير في مكة المكرمة |publisher=''Blog.ksa.co.in'' |url=http://blog.ksa.co.in/archives/1903 |language=[[Arabic]] |access-date=2018-03-27}}</ref> but this is the first time that I am seeing anything like that, as far as I can remember. [[User:Leo1pard|Leo1pard]] ([[User talk:Leo1pard|talk]]) 04:04, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}

== Request Move to Grand Mosque of Makkah ==

When we usually refer to the Mosque in English, we say the Grand Mosque not the Great Mosque. Also in Arabic and Urdu, the city is pronounced as MakkaH, a H is pronounced, so I would suggest moving the page to "Grand Mosque of Makkah" [[User:Jibran1998|Jibran1998]] ([[User talk:Jibran1998|talk]]) 10:39, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

{{ping|Jibran1998}} Why not ''Al-Haram Mosque''? ''[[Ḥ-R-M|Ḥarām]]'' ({{lang-ar|حَـرَام}}) can mean '[[Ban (law)|Forbidden]]'<ref name="Adamec 2009 102">{{cite book |last=Adamec |first=Ludwig |title=Historical Dictionary of Islam, 2nd Edition |year=2009| publisher=[[Scarecrow Press]], Inc. |location=[[Lanham, Maryland]] |isbn=9780810861619 |page=102}}</ref> or '[[Sacred]]', so ''Al-Masjid al-Ḥarām'' ({{lang-ar|ٱلْـمَـسْـجِـد الْـحَـرَام}}) can mean "The Forbidden Mosque" or "The Sacred Mosque".<ref name="Al-Modarresi 2016">{{cite book |author=Mohammad Taqi al-Modarresi |authorlink=Mohammad Taqi al-Modarresi |title=The Laws of Islam |publisher=Enlight Press |isbn=978-0994240989 |url=http://almodarresi.com/en/books/pdf/TheLawsofIslam.pdf |date=26 March 2016 |access-date=22 December 2017 |ref=Modarresi |language=[[English language|English]]}}</ref>{{rp|471}} I see that because ''Al-Masjid al-Ḥarām'' is not in the [[English language]], there is an issue with renaming this article as such, but even though "Al-Haram Mosque" might be less popular, it is [[Wikipedia:Neutrality|WP:neutral]] between the different definitions of ''Ḥarâm'', especially in the English language, and we do have a [[mosque]] that is similarly prominent, albeit to a lesser extent, and named in a similar way to "Al-Haram Mosque", that is [[Al-Aqsa Mosque]], which makes use of the Arabic name ({{lang-ar|ٱلْـمَـسْـجِـد الْاَقْـصَى|Al-Masjid al-Aqṣā}}) in an English manner. [[User:Leo1pard|Leo1pard]] ([[User talk:Leo1pard|talk]]) 07:20, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

: If [[Al-Aqsa Mosque]] does not have to be renamed "The Farthest Mosque," which is what the [[Arabic name]] means in the [[English language]], then why should this article have to be named "Grand Mosque of Mecca" or "Grand Mosque of Makkah," considering that the word ''Ḥaram'' ({{lang-ar|حَـرَم}}) or ''Ḥarām'' ({{lang-ar|حَـرَام}}) is commonly used for this mosque, that Arabic for 'great' or 'grand' would be ''Kabīr'' ({{lang-ar|كَـبِـيـر}}) or ''Akbar'' ({{lang-ar|أَكْـبَـر}}) (like for the [[Great Mosque of Kairouan]]), and that relatively few people, if any, would use ''Kabīr'' or ''Akbar'' for this mosque? I see that this website used ''Al-Masjid al-Kabīr fī Makkah al-Mukarramah'' ({{lang-ar|اَلْـمَـسْـجِـد الْـكَـبِـيـر فِي مَـكَّـة الْـمُـكَـرَّمَـة}}, "The Great Mosque in [[Makkah]] the Highly Honoured"),<ref name="Sabeena">{{cite web |author=Sabeena |title=المسجد الكبير في مكة المكرمة |publisher=''Blog.ksa.co.in'' |url=http://blog.ksa.co.in/archives/1903 |language=[[Arabic]] |access-date=2018-03-27}}</ref> but this was the first time that I saw anything like that, as far as I can remember. [[User:Leo1pard|Leo1pard]] ([[User talk:Leo1pard|talk]]) 05:39, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

{{reflist-talk}}
== "Biggest mosque" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] ==
[[File:Information.svg|30px|left]]
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect [[Biggest mosque]]. Please participate in [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2019 September 20#Biggest mosque|the redirect discussion]] if you wish to do so. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> [[User:Steel1943|<span style="color: #2F4F4F;">'''''Steel1943'''''</span>]] ([[User talk:Steel1943|talk]]) 20:35, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

== Is the Kaaba a mosque? ==

There is a discussion on [[Talk:Conversion_of_non-Islamic_places_of_worship_into_mosques#The_Ka'aba]] concerning whether the Kaaba should be included in that article. Everyone is welcome to join the discussion. [[User:M.Bitton|M.Bitton]] ([[User talk:M.Bitton|talk]]) 22:48, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

== Requested move 8 August 2020 ==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. ''

The result of the move request was: '''Moved'''. From the evidence provided in the discussion, the Arabic form is the most common name in English language sources. It should be pointed out that [[WP:RECOGNIZABILITY]] is not a competition; it says a good article title is recognisable, ''not'' that the most recognisable title is the best title. From ngrams and Google Trends searches combined, I personally am satisfied that the COMMONNAME is, indeed, [[Masjid al-Haram]] (give or take transliteration quirks). Also, for what it's worth? Just because this is the English Wikipedia does not mean the English translation is the best; for example, nobody calls the most famous street in Paris "[[Champs-Élysées|Avenue of the Elysian Fields]]". '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' ([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]]) 22:06, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
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[[:Great Mosque of Mecca]] → {{no redirect|Masjid al-Haram}} – These are the multiple reasons why I think the name should be reverted to Masjid al-Haram or similar:<br/>
'''A. The [[Al-Masjid an-Nabawi]] article:'''<br/>
The aforementioned article concerning the Prophet’s Mosque uses the Arabic name for its title, as do most other articles about mosques on Wikipedia.<br/>
'''B. Google Ngram Viewer and the popularity of ''Al-Masjid Al-Haram'' and other forms'''<br/>
Wikipedia recommends using Google Books Ngram Viewer to support move claims per [[WP:RM]]. Given this, [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?smoothing=3&corpus=26&year_end=2019&year_start=1800&content=Masjid+al-Haram%2CGreat+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CGrand+Mosque+of+Mecca%2C%5Bal-Masjid+al-Haram%5D&direct_url=t1%3B%2CMasjid%20al%20-%20Haram%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGreat%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGrand%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0 Ngram Viewer shows] that the name ''Masjid al-Haram'' is more than 3.5x more prevalent in usage than both ''Great Mosque of Mecca'' and ''Grand Mosque of Mecca'' individually, and around 2x more popular than both combined. In addition, [https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=masjid%20al%20haram,masjid%20al-haram,great%20mosque%20of%20mecca,grand%20mosque%20of%20mecca,al%20masjid%20al%20haram Google Trends shows] that the names ''Masjid al-Haram'', ''Masjid Al Haram'' and ''Al Masjid Al Haram'', combined, are 13x more popular in searches on Google than ''Great Mosque of Mecca'' and ''Grand Mosque of Mecca'' combined, on average.<br/>
'''C. Concerning the previous name change'''<br/>
I believe the previous name change was made hastily and inconsiderably. The main concern of the person suggesting the previous name change was a violation of [[WP:CONCISENESS]], however, I believe that the current name violates [[WP:PRECISION]], [[WP:CONSISTENCY]] and [[WP:CONCISENESS]], and, albeit to a much smaller degree, [[WP:RECOGNIZABILITY]]. [[User:AccordingClass|AccordingClass]] ([[User talk:AccordingClass|talk]]) 20:04, 8 August 2020 (UTC) <small>—'''''Relisting.'''''&nbsp;[[User:Steel1943|<span style="color: #2F4F4F;">'''''Steel1943'''''</span>]] ([[User talk:Steel1943|talk]]) 21:40, 24 August 2020 (UTC)</small>
*'''Oppose''' - I'm afraid the asserted reasons A, B, and C may be inappropriately employed here.
:''Regarding A'': I'm not sure how linking a single Wikipedia article about [[Al-Masjid an-Nabawi]] is grounds for the later claim of "most other articles about mosques on Wikipedia", but if one were to use [[WP:CONSISTENT]], which looks at {{tq|"the pattern of similar articles"}}, then [[:Category:Mosques in Saudi Arabia]] would demonstrate that, for mosques specifically in Saudi Arabia, of the approximately 28 that have articles on Wikipedia, only 4 articles have a name containing "Masjid" while 23 have a name containing "Mosque", making a name containing "Mosque" - in fact - the more consistent one by far.
:''Regarding B'': The Ngram link is invalid as the evidence does not match the proposed title. The proposed title is "Al-Masjid al-Haram", but the Ngram link uses "Masjid al-Haram", which is a different form without the "Al-" article. This issue has been debated ''ad nauseum'' in multiple previous RM discussions as well - the evidence must match the proposed title. To wit, if the search had been performed correctly and included "Al-", one would find that [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Great+Mosque+of+Mecca%2CGrand+Mosque+of+Mecca%2Cal-Masjid+al-Haram&smoothing=3&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&direct_url=t1%3B%2CGreat%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CGrand%20Mosque%20of%20Mecca%3B%2Cc0 either "Great Mosque of Mecca" or "Grand Mosque of Mecca" are used more often than "Al-Masjid al-Haram"]. Also, Google Trends is invalid here because its statistics is based upon all language ''searches'', whereas [[WP:COMMONNAME]] requires {{tq|"reliable English-language ''sources''"}} - apart from the language issue, note that searches are not sources, let alone ''reliable'' sources. The current title is hence more in keeping with [[WP:COMMONNAME]] and [[WP:RECOGNIZABILITY]] as it uses a form known to be far more familiar to English speakers.
:''Regarding C'': The previous name change was not hastily done; in fact, RMs for this article have been debated nothing short of extensively, to a fault - 90% of this talk page discuss nothing constructive other than proposed name changes to various forms, and this debate crops up almost every two years. It seems like it was finally due this year, and so it has returned. In addition, the proposal claims violations of [[WP:PRECISION]], [[WP:CONCISE]], and [[WP:CONSISTENT]], but it has not been demonstrated how the current title violates any of the three.
:In sum, the previous consensus was clear and continues to hold: the current form of name is far more common in English-language sources, and - contrary to the proposal - is supported by [[WP:COMMONNAME]], [[WP:RECOGNIZABILITY]], and [[WP:CONSISTENT]]. There is also no evidence given that [[WP:PRECISION]] or [[WP:CONCISE]] is at issue. [[User:Epistulae ad Familiares|Epistulae ad Familiares]] ([[User talk:Epistulae ad Familiares|talk]]) 09:28, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
:*'''Reply''': I see this as a violation of [[WP:CONSISTENCY]] as applicable to the three holiest sites of Islam, i.e., the Masjid an-Nabawi, the Masjid al-Haram and the Masjid al-Aqsa. The articles concerning these two mosques use their original names, and as such, I believe this article should do so too. I do not support '''''Al-Masjid al-Haram''''' alone, I am supporting "'''''Al-Masjid al-Haram''' or similar''". This includes both '''''Al-Masjid al-Haram''' and '''Masjid al-Haram'''''. As such, even if Masjid al-Haram is selected as the new article, that's perfectly fine with me. In my opinion, the title violates [[WP:RECOGNIZABILITY]] and [[WP:CONCISENESS]] in the name of [[WP:PRECISION]] as anyone even vaguely introduced to the idea would be able to identify the mosque with the name "Masjid al-Haram". I still believe the previous consensus was reached hastily and inconsiderably as the pre-proposal evidence the person brought to suggest names was, ''verbatim'', "''Evidence is provided in Ngram results and in search results (in these cases from books)...''", responding to which I have brought forth similar evidence. [[User:AccordingClass|AccordingClass]] ([[User talk:AccordingClass|talk]]) 10:44, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per nom, as explained in reply to [[User:Epistulae ad Familiares]] --[[User:AccordingClass|AccordingClass]] ([[User talk:AccordingClass|talk]]) 11:07, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

* '''Support''' <ins>"Masjid al-Haram"</ins>: I find all the arguments presented by [[User:AccordingClass]] to be valid. I would like to add that outside Wikipedia I’ve only rarely seen the name "Great Mosque of Mecca" being used. [[User:Idell|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:Teal">{{Resize|110%|'''''Idell'''''}}</span>]] ([[User talk:Idell|talk]]) 11:48, 10 August 2020 (UTC); edited 21:11, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

*'''Support''' In fact Wikipedia might be only notable website which calls this mosque like that contrary to traditional and media sources. [[User:Sachin.cba|Sachin.cba]] ([[User talk:Sachin.cba|talk]]) 07:14, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

*'''Oppose'''. Interesting case. I'm inclined to believe that even English sources do favour the proposed title. But on the other hand, the current title would be recognisable to every English speaker, while the proposed title (which I assume is Arabic) would be meaningless to many if not most English speakers. Having it at the current title clearly [[wp:IAR|improves Wikipedia]] in my opinion. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] ([[User talk:Andrewa|talk]]) 00:52, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

*'''oppose''' per Epistulae ad Familiares, Andrewa. They already mentioned what I was going to say. —usernamekiran [[User talk:usernamekiran|(talk)]] 21:48, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' per above reasoning. [[User:Rreagan007|Rreagan007]] ([[User talk:Rreagan007|talk]]) 00:30, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

*'''Comment''': Since sources of all languages prefer the original title, how do you think will the English name be recognisable (not the same as ''understandable'') to English speakers? And wouldn’t you say that places generally have names in all sorts of languages. How is it fair to translate their name to English? And we’re not even translating it in this case, as I said above, I haven’t seen the name "Great Mosque of Mecca" being used anywhere off Wikipedia. [[User:Idell|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:Teal">{{Resize|110%|'''''Idell'''''}}</span>]] ([[User talk:Idell|talk]]) 04:59, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. The common name in most reliable English-language sources is the current one, even if the Ngram picks up lots of mentions of the Arabic name in scholarly sources. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 12:00, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' "Masjid al-Haram" seems to be the more common name (3,115,000 results on Google web search) as opposed to "Great Mosque of Mecca" (511,000). I think the proposal should be (slightly) modified to "Masjid al-Haram" instead of the more proper "al-Masjid al-Haram" (798,000 hits on Google) because it appears far more common. I know the BBC also uses "Masjid al-Haram" frequently if not most frequently, and other major English-language news sites, such as AP and CNN, will use "Masjid al-Haram", or at least reference it in addition to "Great Mosque" or "Grand Mosque". [[User:Al Ameer son|Al Ameer]] ([[User talk:Al Ameer son|talk]]) 14:56, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per nom.--[[User:Ortizesp|Ortizesp]] ([[User talk:Ortizesp|talk]]) 20:38, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' This is the English Wikipedia for english readers and is already the "English" common name. The title "Al-Masjid al-Haram" is Arabic but in [[latin script]] because we're typing with latin script keyboards. Al-Masjid al-Haram is common name only to Arabic speakers. The rm initiator is basically moving the english common name to what the pronunciation of what the official Arabic title would sound like. [[User:Jerm|Jerm]] ([[User talk:Jerm|talk]]) 22:40, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
**'''Reply''': No, in fact, most, if not all Muslim speakers refer to the mosque as "al-Masjid al-Haram," "Masjid al-Haram," or similar. This is also the reason Google Trends shows these two names to be far more common than the one the article holds now. I tried to use that as evidence, but a user pointed out that it encompasses searches from all languages. --[[User:AccordingClass|AccordingClass]] ([[User talk:AccordingClass|talk]]) 10:24, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
*'''Support''' Claims that "Great Mosque of Mecca" is the common name in English remain unsubstantiated. While this usage may have been common a century ago, times change, and Masjid al-Haram is quite obviously more common in 2020.<!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:M Imtiaz|M Imtiaz]] ([[User talk:M Imtiaz#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/M Imtiaz|contribs]]) </small>
{{abot}}

Latest revision as of 18:37, 8 November 2024


Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion

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The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussions at the nomination pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:06, 2 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Temple of Hubal

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It used to be the Temple of Hubal in Pre Islamic Era worshipped by the Quraysh Tribe 171.76.85.13 (talk) 03:38, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Name

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My arabic fellows, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't "haram" mean forbidden? EntityRrr (talk) 17:11, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How many minarets?

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The fact box stipulates 7, with 6 minarets under construction. Elsewhere it says that after the two last minarets were built, the number is eleven.

What is correct? Mumroos (talk) 17:37, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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