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== Colectivo and National Youth Service ==
{{hat|Comments by blocked sock hidden --[[User:IamNotU|IamNotU]] ([[User talk:IamNotU|talk]]) 00:04, 1 February 2021 (UTC)}}

<s>Collectivo is not a government paramilitary organization .They are irregular, leftist Venezuelan community organizations that support Nicolás Maduro, the Bolivarian government, the Great Patriotic Pole (GPP) political alliance and the party, the United Socialist Party of Venezuela (PSUV).

The National Youth Service was a programme of the Zimbabwean government for Zimbabweans of ages 10 to 30. It was introduced in 2000 by Border Gezi—then the Minister for Gender, Youth and Employment—and the first training camp was established at Mount Darwin in 2001.Its stated purpose was to "transform and empower youths for nation building through life skills training and leadership development."


Both of them are not government paramilitary force.

[[User:Sangheili spartan|Sangheili spartan]] ([[User talk:Sangheili spartan|talk]]) 14:21, 27 January 2021 (UTC)</s>

:RS for Colectivo being paramilitary

:CNN - amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/05/24/americas/venezuela-colectivos-oppman-intl/index.html

AlJazeera - www.aljazeera.com/amp/features/2019/5/9/venezuela-who-are-the-colectivos

BBC - www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-latin-america-47118139

Washington Post - https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/maduros-muscle-politically-backed-motorcycle-gangs-known-as-colectivos-are-the-enforcers-for-venezuelas-authoritarian-leader/2019/03/13/2242068c-4452-11e9-94ab-d2dda3c0df52_story.html

Etc etc

You're on slightly stronger ground with NYS but still

Cambridge - https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/africa/article/creating-a-monster-the-national-youth-service-preuniversity-training-programme-student-activism-and-the-kenyan-state-197890/36B551FCCC315DB730B53F66B8B25EE5

Manchester uni -

New York times - https://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/28/world/reports-of-rape-and-torture-inside-zimbabwean-militia.html

Etc etc

[[User:Pipsally|Pipsally]] ([[User talk:Pipsally|talk]]) 16:33, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

<s>https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/africa/article/creating-a-monster-the-national-youth-service-preuniversity-training-programme-student-activism-and-the-kenyan-state-197890/36B551FCCC315DB730B53F66B8B25EE5

It is clearly rewritten in the article that National Youth Service was a programme of the Zimbabwean government in order to make student discipline.

Collectivo get support from Maduro and his party not the government of Venezuela

Do not confuse between paramiliary force led bypolitical party and paramiliary force led by government of a country.

Take the example Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh get support from BJP who is big party in today's India.But they are not part of government institutions. they are simply branch of BJP

Please check this article

https://www.refworld.org/docid/4e4a34d32.html

[[User:Sangheili spartan|Sangheili spartan]] ([[User talk:Sangheili spartan|talk]]) 04:39, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

It is rewritten that Youth Militia is a private militia controlled by the ZANU-PF party. [[User:Sangheili spartan|Sangheili spartan]] ([[User talk:Sangheili spartan|talk]]) 04:53, 28 January 2021 (UTC)


And about Avengers of blood it is led by House of Representatives (Libya). There is no proper government in libya if you read about second libya civil war. [[User:Sangheili spartan|Sangheili spartan]] ([[User talk:Sangheili spartan|talk]]) 05:00, 28 January 2021 (UTC)</s>
== Suggest divide ==


:: Well this is very easy to deal with. A paramilitary forces does not need to be sanctioned by the state to exist, but many of these are directly under the control of the govt or have been. Regardless the Libyan example is clearly a paramilitary group and should not be removed.[[User:Pipsally|Pipsally]] ([[User talk:Pipsally|talk]]) 07:23, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
I suggest we divide them into state and non-state paramilitaries and list them. Why not make this a disambiguation page.--[[User:NadirAli|NadirAli نادر علی]] ([[User talk:NadirAli|talk]]) 00:03, 28 November 2016 (UTC)


<s>Ok understand <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Sangheili spartan|Sangheili spartan]] ([[User talk:Sangheili spartan#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sangheili spartan|contribs]]) 13:09, 28 January 2021 (UTC)</span> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--></s>
:How would that help? --[[User:A D Monroe III|A&#8239;D&#8239;Monroe&#8239;III]]<sup>([[User talk:A D Monroe III#top|talk]])</sup> 20:44, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
{{hab}}
::{{to|A D Monroe III}} the list is excessive as it is. It would also help the readers distinguish as well as clear [[WP:CLUTTER]]--[[User:NadirAli|NadirAli نادر علی]] ([[User talk:NadirAli|talk]]) 20:46, 11 October 2017 (UTC)


== Non-governmental paramilitary units ==
:::Excessive how? It's a list that's a couple pages long; if it were much shorter, we might not bother with a list at all. Splitting would hurt readers that didn't already know if what they want is state or non-state. A few orgs transitioned. (BTW, what [[WP:CLUTTER]] was applies here? It's a DAB, with nothing it points to seeming to support this.) I see zero benefit in splitting, and some down-side. --[[User:A D Monroe III|A&#8239;D&#8239;Monroe&#8239;III]]<sup>([[User talk:A D Monroe III#top|talk]])</sup> 00:35, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
::{{To|A D Monroe III}} I don't mean splitting the article, I mean splitting the sections. I don't have too much time to discuss it right now, but I meant keeping the page intact while splitting state with non-state as well as giving defunct organizations their own separate section.--[[User:NadirAli|NadirAli نادر علی]] ([[User talk:NadirAli|talk]]) 00:46, 12 October 2017 (UTC)


Should there perhaps be some set criteria for this section? Something like "this section includes the Boy Scouts, paintballers and historical battle re-enactment groups, but also terrorist groups, drug cartels, neo-nazis, white supremacists, anarchists, slave traders, pirates, sex-traffickers, La Cosa Nostra, the Bloods & Crips, left-and-right-wing hate groups, people who rob gas stations and wiki-vandalizing-sock-puppets"...? Just a thought - [[User:Thewolfchild|<span style="color: black">wolf</span>]] 03:13, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
== American groups ==
:{{re|Thewolfchild}} Well, the [[Paramilitary]] article defines a paramilitary organization as {{tq|a semi-militarized force whose organizational structure, tactics, training, subculture, and (often) function are similar to those of a professional military, but is not formally part of a country's armed forces.}} The problem is that it's not Wikipedia's job to determine whether a certain group fits this description or not. So maybe it would be best to simply require that every entry in the list comes with at least one reliable source that describes the group as a paramilitary organization. Or rather, to ''enforce'' this requirement, which obviously already exists as one of Wikipedia's core policies. [[User:Lennart97|Lennart97]] ([[User talk:Lennart97|talk]]) 12:22, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
::Yes, obviously... we should ensure every entry is sourced. But more than that, it is our job to evaluate sources. Just because a source might denote a group a "paramilitary", doesn't mean that group fits the OED definition you noted above. So along with reliability of the source, we must ensure the entry as a whole (content + sourcing) complies with WP policies, since those take precedent.<p>Currently, there are about a dozen American groups listed, with only a single source attached; (an article about "anti-government" groups, which I'm not sure applies to all those groups.) Beyond that are another ≈3 dozen entries, all without a single source. All the entries, American and other, rely on linked WP articles, so scrutiny is needed. But ultimately, any challenged content requires consensus, and the wp:onus is on those seeking to include to achieve that consensus. - [[User:Thewolfchild|<span style="color: black">wolf</span>]] 13:29, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
:::Agreed. There's also [[List of paramilitary groups]] covering the same topic, by the way, which lists groups alphabetically regardless of whether they're governmental or not. I guess a merge is needed, but I don't know which way. [[User:Lennart97|Lennart97]] ([[User talk:Lennart97|talk]]) 13:49, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
::::The other list is smaller, once the unsourced entries, duplicates and unneeded descriptions are stripped away, I believe that list could easily and boldly be merged into this one. (Entries can, and should, still be alphabetical, just by continent→ country→ group.) - [[User:Thewolfchild|<span style="color: black">wolf</span>]] 14:13, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
:::::I've done this merge and started a [[Talk:List_of_paramilitary_organizations#Defunct_organizations|new discussion]] regarding another page with similar content. [[User:Hyponect|Hyponect]] ([[User talk:Hyponect|talk]]) 00:23, 23 February 2023 (UTC)


== Paramilitary Forces of India ==
See [[:Category:United States private paramilitary groups]]. [[User:Doug Weller|<span style="color:#070">Doug Weller</span>]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 18:04, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
India gives the designation of paramilitary to only one outfit,i.e. Assam Rifles.<ref>https://www.assamrifles.gov.in/DOCS/POLICY%20ACTS/Assam%20Rifles%20Regulation%202016(1).pdf</ref> They are under the administrative control of the Ministry of Home Affairs but are operationally under the control of the Ministry of Defense, officers from the Indian Army make up about 80% of the Assam Rifles Cadre.
India does not consider the Central Reserve Police Force to be a paramilitary force. It has been designated as a Central Armed Police Force and comes under the purview of the Ministry of Home Affairs.
CRPF has been incorrectly been classified as a paramilitary force, it has similar functions to one but has important differences, officially it is called a Central Armed Police Force. [[User:Notanikdey|Notanikdey]] ([[User talk:Notanikdey|talk]]) 15:06, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
{{Reftalk}}


== Defunct organizations ==
==Lack of a definition, i.e. original research ==
Without a clear understanding of what is and what is not "paramilitary," we cannot go forward.[[Gendarmerie]] may not be paramilitary as they are usually part of the local army or Ministry of Defense. On the other hand, they have a civilian nature too. Other groups are part-time soldiers (the [[Canadian Rangers]]) who are really armed civilians with a military role. Others are auxiliaries (the Power Squadrons) that aid the military services but have no combatant role. Tell me what we mean I will be able to add to this list. [[User:PaulinSaudi|&#39;&#39;Paul, in Saudi&#39;&#39;]] ([[User talk:PaulinSaudi|talk]]) 09:11, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
* {{ping|PaulinSaudi}} Well paramilitary is an organisation which is not part of the national army nor the national police and is an armed semi-militarised group but they can co-operate together and can be special forces of the government. Gendarmerie are paramilitary too, I think to fix the lack, we should divided them in two sections or split the list. Cheers. [[User:CPA-5|CPA-5]] ([[User talk:CPA-5|talk]]) 23:15, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
:*The [[Baltimore Police Department]] meets your definition. The [[Civil Air Patrol]] and the [[US Power Squadron]] does not, but both assist the military and are commonly thought of as paramilitary. I am not trying to argue, I simply do not understand what is and what is not to be listed here.[[User:PaulinSaudi|&#39;&#39;Paul, in Saudi&#39;&#39;]] ([[User talk:PaulinSaudi|talk]]) 00:52, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
::*I found some dictionaries which says "(of an unofficial force) organized similarly to a military force." by Oxford [https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/paramilitary], "noting or pertaining to an organization operating as, in place of, or as a supplement to a regular military force" by Dictionary [https://www.dictionary.com/browse/paramilitary], "A paramilitary group is organized like an army but is not official and often not legal." and "connected with and helping the official armed forces" by Dictionary Cambridge "of, relating to, being, or characteristic of a force formed on a military pattern especially as a potential auxiliary military force" by Merriam-Webster [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/paramilitary], "A paramilitary organization is organized like an army and performs either civil or military functions in a country." and "A paramilitary organization is an illegal group that is organized like an army." by Collins Dictionary. With this informations, we can search for the ideal definition of paramilitary organisations is. They can be illegally which are more like rebel groups or terrorist groups. They are unofficially by the government but can help armed forces or police forces they can have military or civil functions. Which means, every organisation which is armed and act like the national army is a paramilitary organisation. Also I don't think the Baltimore Police Department in on. Yeah sure they use military ranks but they don't act like one. Instead of the Civil Air Patrol yes they are unarmed but they act like the military. They use military ranks, military uniforms, military-style programmes and even required for having physical fitness programmes. I think the United States Power Squadrons is not a paramilitary organisation because it looks more like an educational organisation. [[User:CPA-5|CPA-5]] ([[User talk:CPA-5|talk]]) 10:29, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
::* I appreciate your thoughts on the subject When we come to some consensus we may be able to proceed.[[User:PaulinSaudi|&#39;&#39;Paul, in Saudi&#39;&#39;]] ([[User talk:PaulinSaudi|talk]]) 20:41, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
::**I don't think we can decide. We should only include those that have reliable sources calling them paramilitary. [[User:Doug Weller|<span style="color:#070">Doug Weller</span>]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 21:50, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
::::* {{ping|Doug Weller}} Maybe. I think It depends, most rebel or terrorist groups are paramilitary too. Most if not all sources don't say they're paramilitaries (but instead of rebels or terrorists) I think the closest thing we have to see it is a paramilitary organisation or not are the dictionaries. Of course some sources says they are paramilitary organisations like Hezbollah [https://www.dw.com/en/hezbollah-lebanons-iran-backed-paramilitary-organization/g-43694312] or the United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia [http://web.stanford.edu/group/mappingmilitants/cgi-bin/groups/view/85] But if we really should folow the sources (which call them paramilitary) then we should delete some of them. Even they have everyting what the paramilitary definition has I think we can describe a paramilitary organisation by 1st if the source(s) describe it as one or 2de if the sources says it operate, act and train as one. Or isn't that enough? Cheers. [[User:CPA-5|CPA-5]] ([[User talk:CPA-5|talk]]) 23:18, 30 December 2018 (UTC)


[[List of defunct paramilitary organizations]] has similar scope to this article. Options:
::::**{{re|CPA-5}} I don't think it is enough. What you are suggesting is in my opinion [[WP:NOR|original research]]. You can ask at [[WP:NORN]] for another opinion. [[User:Doug Weller|<span style="color:#070">Doug Weller</span>]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 09:25, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
# Change this to be an active organizations list and move defunct organizations to the other page.
::::::*Okay, this is a major problem on this article and some armed organisations. There should have be a clean-up in those articles. Cheers. [[User:CPA-5|CPA-5]] ([[User talk:CPA-5|talk]]) 10:05, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
# Merge that article into this one
Due to the length of the list I am leaning towards option 1.
[[User:Hyponect|Hyponect]] ([[User talk:Hyponect|talk]]) 23:51, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 12:43, 10 November 2024

Colectivo and National Youth Service

[edit]
Comments by blocked sock hidden --IamNotU (talk) 00:04, 1 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.


Collectivo is not a government paramilitary organization .They are irregular, leftist Venezuelan community organizations that support Nicolás Maduro, the Bolivarian government, the Great Patriotic Pole (GPP) political alliance and the party, the United Socialist Party of Venezuela (PSUV).

The National Youth Service was a programme of the Zimbabwean government for Zimbabweans of ages 10 to 30. It was introduced in 2000 by Border Gezi—then the Minister for Gender, Youth and Employment—and the first training camp was established at Mount Darwin in 2001.Its stated purpose was to "transform and empower youths for nation building through life skills training and leadership development."


Both of them are not government paramilitary force.

Sangheili spartan (talk) 14:21, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RS for Colectivo being paramilitary
CNN - amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/05/24/americas/venezuela-colectivos-oppman-intl/index.html

AlJazeera - www.aljazeera.com/amp/features/2019/5/9/venezuela-who-are-the-colectivos

BBC - www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-latin-america-47118139

Washington Post - https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/maduros-muscle-politically-backed-motorcycle-gangs-known-as-colectivos-are-the-enforcers-for-venezuelas-authoritarian-leader/2019/03/13/2242068c-4452-11e9-94ab-d2dda3c0df52_story.html

Etc etc

You're on slightly stronger ground with NYS but still

Cambridge - https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/africa/article/creating-a-monster-the-national-youth-service-preuniversity-training-programme-student-activism-and-the-kenyan-state-197890/36B551FCCC315DB730B53F66B8B25EE5

Manchester uni -

New York times - https://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/28/world/reports-of-rape-and-torture-inside-zimbabwean-militia.html

Etc etc

Pipsally (talk) 16:33, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/africa/article/creating-a-monster-the-national-youth-service-preuniversity-training-programme-student-activism-and-the-kenyan-state-197890/36B551FCCC315DB730B53F66B8B25EE5

It is clearly rewritten in the article that National Youth Service was a programme of the Zimbabwean government in order to make student discipline.

Collectivo get support from Maduro and his party not the government of Venezuela

Do not confuse between paramiliary force led bypolitical party and paramiliary force led by government of a country.

Take the example Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh get support from BJP who is big party in today's India.But they are not part of government institutions. they are simply branch of BJP

Please check this article

https://www.refworld.org/docid/4e4a34d32.html

Sangheili spartan (talk) 04:39, 28 January 2021 (UTC) [reply]

It is rewritten that Youth Militia is a private militia controlled by the ZANU-PF party. Sangheili spartan (talk) 04:53, 28 January 2021 (UTC) [reply]

And about Avengers of blood it is led by House of Representatives (Libya). There is no proper government in libya if you read about second libya civil war. Sangheili spartan (talk) 05:00, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well this is very easy to deal with. A paramilitary forces does not need to be sanctioned by the state to exist, but many of these are directly under the control of the govt or have been. Regardless the Libyan example is clearly a paramilitary group and should not be removed.Pipsally (talk) 07:23, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ok understand — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sangheili spartan (talkcontribs) 13:09, 28 January 2021 (UTC) [reply]

Non-governmental paramilitary units

[edit]

Should there perhaps be some set criteria for this section? Something like "this section includes the Boy Scouts, paintballers and historical battle re-enactment groups, but also terrorist groups, drug cartels, neo-nazis, white supremacists, anarchists, slave traders, pirates, sex-traffickers, La Cosa Nostra, the Bloods & Crips, left-and-right-wing hate groups, people who rob gas stations and wiki-vandalizing-sock-puppets"...? Just a thought - wolf 03:13, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Thewolfchild: Well, the Paramilitary article defines a paramilitary organization as a semi-militarized force whose organizational structure, tactics, training, subculture, and (often) function are similar to those of a professional military, but is not formally part of a country's armed forces. The problem is that it's not Wikipedia's job to determine whether a certain group fits this description or not. So maybe it would be best to simply require that every entry in the list comes with at least one reliable source that describes the group as a paramilitary organization. Or rather, to enforce this requirement, which obviously already exists as one of Wikipedia's core policies. Lennart97 (talk) 12:22, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, obviously... we should ensure every entry is sourced. But more than that, it is our job to evaluate sources. Just because a source might denote a group a "paramilitary", doesn't mean that group fits the OED definition you noted above. So along with reliability of the source, we must ensure the entry as a whole (content + sourcing) complies with WP policies, since those take precedent.

Currently, there are about a dozen American groups listed, with only a single source attached; (an article about "anti-government" groups, which I'm not sure applies to all those groups.) Beyond that are another ≈3 dozen entries, all without a single source. All the entries, American and other, rely on linked WP articles, so scrutiny is needed. But ultimately, any challenged content requires consensus, and the wp:onus is on those seeking to include to achieve that consensus. - wolf 13:29, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. There's also List of paramilitary groups covering the same topic, by the way, which lists groups alphabetically regardless of whether they're governmental or not. I guess a merge is needed, but I don't know which way. Lennart97 (talk) 13:49, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The other list is smaller, once the unsourced entries, duplicates and unneeded descriptions are stripped away, I believe that list could easily and boldly be merged into this one. (Entries can, and should, still be alphabetical, just by continent→ country→ group.) - wolf 14:13, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've done this merge and started a new discussion regarding another page with similar content. Hyponect (talk) 00:23, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Paramilitary Forces of India

[edit]

India gives the designation of paramilitary to only one outfit,i.e. Assam Rifles.[1] They are under the administrative control of the Ministry of Home Affairs but are operationally under the control of the Ministry of Defense, officers from the Indian Army make up about 80% of the Assam Rifles Cadre. India does not consider the Central Reserve Police Force to be a paramilitary force. It has been designated as a Central Armed Police Force and comes under the purview of the Ministry of Home Affairs. CRPF has been incorrectly been classified as a paramilitary force, it has similar functions to one but has important differences, officially it is called a Central Armed Police Force. Notanikdey (talk) 15:06, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

Defunct organizations

[edit]

List of defunct paramilitary organizations has similar scope to this article. Options:

  1. Change this to be an active organizations list and move defunct organizations to the other page.
  2. Merge that article into this one

Due to the length of the list I am leaning towards option 1. Hyponect (talk) 23:51, 22 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]