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== External links modified ==

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on [[Wisconsin Sikh temple shooting]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=779678011 my edit]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120809235839/http://nation.time.com/2012/08/07/relatives-speak-of-those-killed-in-temple-shooting/ to http://nation.time.com/2012/08/07/relatives-speak-of-those-killed-in-temple-shooting/

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Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 09:41, 10 May 2017 (UTC)


== Image of Wade Michael Page ==
== what day of the week? ==


what day of the week? [[Special:Contributions/142.163.194.85|142.163.194.85]] ([[User talk:142.163.194.85|talk]]) 15:04, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
The image ([[:File:Wade michael page police handout.png]]) is used in the article's section about the perpetrator responsible for the shooting. This is not like other images of perpetrators getting deleted, right? When I was reading the article in the Show Preview page, I already understand that the perpetrator was part of the event. Also, I already understand the event without this non-free image by reading the whole article. I can grasp how disturbing the event was without the image of this person. Nevertheless, I suspect that some might disagree and say that the whole headshot appearance (i.e. the mugshot) effectively increases readers' understanding of the event well. But how? Pinging [[User:Medeis|Medeis]] who uploaded the image. --[[User:George Ho|George Ho]] ([[User talk:George Ho|talk]]) 22:25, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
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:August 5, 2012 was a Sunday, although per [[MOS:DATE]] the day is not usually given. Today marks the tenth anniversary of this shooting.[https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2022/08/04/oak-creek-sikh-temple-shooting/]--'''''[[User:ianmacm|<span style="background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps">♦Ian<span style="background:#99c">Ma<span style="background:#aad">c</span></span>M♦</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]</sup>''''' 15:49, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
:I don't remember the debate for this image, but what is relevant is the state's copyright. Some states copyright their mugshots, others don't. [[James Holmes (mass murderer)]] (Colorado Movie Shooter) picture was released to the press, and we did not delete it. [[User:Medeis|μηδείς]] ([[User talk:Medeis|talk]]) 02:16, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
:: Thanks for the reply, [[User:Medeis|Medeis]]. I was asking whether you think removing would affect this article and the readers' understanding of the article subject, the shooting itself. The image is used in the non-biographical article, so I wonder how readers find the image of the person significant to the shooting. --[[User:George Ho|George Ho]] ([[User talk:George Ho|talk]]) 04:17, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
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:::George Ho seems to have an ongoing crusade to remove perp photos from articles. As with other debates where this has happened, my view is that the photo is not absolutely necessary, but I'm not going to rush to delete it by using [[WP:OTHERSTUFF]] arguments.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|<span style="background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps">♦Ian<span style="background:#99c">Ma<span style="background:#aad">c</span></span>M♦</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]</sup>''''' 05:06, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
:::: Umm... not exactly. Not all perp photos are non-free. An image of [[Omar Mateen]] is free to use because the Florida government made it public domain, so the "[[2016 Orlando nightclub shooting]]" includes the image. On the other hand, I tried to insert the free image of [[Christina Grimmie]]'s killer, but the consensus went against it. --[[User:George Ho|George Ho]] ([[User talk:George Ho|talk]]) 06:04, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::The only issue for me is whether the image is free; otherwise it should be kept. A picture is worth a thousand words. The fact that an abstract 'understanding' is possible does not negate the illustrative value of the image. Think of the curious reader. Pardon my French, but are we going to tell him, "Eff you, use Google Image" when there's no reason we can't post it here? This is a comprehensive encyclopedia, not an expurgated reader's digest. [[User:Medeis|μηδείς]] ([[User talk:Medeis|talk]]) 16:54, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::: Either I can take this image to the FFD, or we can have a central discussion, i.e. RfC, about perp photos before doing the FFD. Pinging [[User:Medeis|Medeis]] and [[User:Ianmacm|Ianmacm]] about this. --[[User:George Ho|George Ho]] ([[User talk:George Ho|talk]]) 21:04, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::::If you file an RfC, please ping me. At this point I think I have expressed myself fully. Thanks for notifying me in the first place. [[User:Medeis|μηδείς]] ([[User talk:Medeis|talk]]) 23:02, 7 August 2017 (UTC)


== My plans for this page ==
I read [http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/sikh-temple-gunman-s-online-activity-probed-1.1148690 sources] [http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2012/08/shooter-identified-in-sikh-temple-killings/1#.WYkQ4NKWy71 saying] that FBI handed out the photo. But then [http://denver.cbslocal.com/2012/08/06/shooter-in-sikh-temple-shooting-that-killed-6-in-wisconsin-has-colorado-ties/ this sources] credits the police department of [[Oak Creek, Wisconsin]]... or maybe it was that of [[Oak Creek, Colorado]]. --[[User:George Ho|George Ho]] ([[User talk:George Ho|talk]]) 01:44, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
:Your third source published in Denver has a second picture "credited" to Getty, but with no copyright given. This [http://www.wral.com/proposed-mugshots-laws-may-do-little-to-curb-worst-actors-/13720084/ article] on the abuse of NC mugshots by publishers who basically blackmail people whose photos have been published to remove them from their website says that NC mugshots are indeed in the public domain, but that people whose charges are dropped or who are found not guilty have been permanently stigmatized. In this case, even if we doubt the free status of the Colorado mugshot, the NC nugshot in your source is free, and their is no controversy over his guilt, and the dead have no reputational rights under common law. I would therefore have no objection to replacing the CO picture with the one from NC, assuming we are unsure of CO law regarding mugshots. [[User:Medeis|μηδείς]] ([[User talk:Medeis|talk]]) 03:58, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
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::Although I'm not an expert on US copyright law, the default position on Wikipedia is to assume that police department mugshot photos taken in the US are copyrighted unless specifically stated otherwise. Useful source [http://www.hopesandfears.com/hopes/now/question/168591-who-own-copyright-to-mugshots here].--'''''[[User:ianmacm|<span style="background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps">♦Ian<span style="background:#99c">Ma<span style="background:#aad">c</span></span>M♦</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]</sup>''''' 05:58, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
:::You don't need to be an expert to understand the basics, which I ''do'' know. You can read our copyright policy and our law articles. In general, federal documents are public domain, while copyright status of local documents varies state by state, or municipality. In NC, the article I linked to above, says lawmakers admit "They go out and publish your picture – which is public record and that's OK" but find it leads to abuses they want to correct: [http://www.wral.com/proposed-mugshots-laws-may-do-little-to-curb-worst-actors-/13720084/ NC Mugshots]. So, as I said, we can always use the NC mugshot instead of the CO one in this case, but there's no general reason we should not use a mugshot of a dead perpetrator in this article. [[User:Medeis|μηδείς]] ([[User talk:Medeis|talk]]) 15:22, 11 August 2017 (UTC)


For this page, I plan on adding more detail about the victims of this horrible event. I feel it is unjust for the shooter to be given a long description while detail on the victims is lacking. Along with this, I think this article could benefit from the history of violence on the Sikh community, specifically with the riots in Bellingham, Washington in 1907 and Live Oak, California in 1908. I think talking about how this unrecognized/denied a history of anti-Sikh violence perpetuates hate and allows events like this to re-occur. For information regarding this history I will be using an article by Bhogel and Parkville in the EBSCOhost database. In addition, although the article mentions some reactions after this event, I plan on adding more on the reactions and recovery in the Sikh Community through an article written by Alejandra Molina on the Washington Post. I believe this is a credible article because it utilizes families of the victims assuring these reactions are genuine and true. I will also be using the Academia database for information.
[[User:Medeis|Medeis]] and [[User:Ianmacm|Ianmacm]], I have taken the image to [[Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2017 August 19]]. Let's comment there. --[[User:George Ho|George Ho]] ([[User talk:George Ho|talk]]) 00:36, 19 August 2017 (UTC)


Update: the image is deleted (well, it was deleted but then undeleted but then re-deleted) per [[Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2017 October 19#File:Wade michael page police handout.png]]. [[User:George Ho|George Ho]] ([[User talk:George Ho|talk]]) 06:24, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
<nowiki>If anybody has any ideas or edits for my changes I would love to know. Please let me know on this talk page or mine~~~~coop444</nowiki> [[User:Coop444|Coop444]] ([[User talk:Coop444|talk]]) 18:59, 14 November 2022 (UTC)


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:Some of this would lead to [[WP:TOPIC]] problems. The article is about the Wisconsin incident, not the history of anti-Sikh violence in general. The [[Bellingham riots]] has its own article. Likewise, long lists of reactions, condolences etc can also lead to [[WP:TOPIC]] problems.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|<span style="background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps">♦Ian<span style="background:#99c">Ma<span style="background:#aad">c</span></span>M♦</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]</sup>''''' 08:30, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
== "Terrorist" ==


==Wiki Education assignment: Asian Religions in America==
Re [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wisconsin_Sikh_temple_shooting&curid=36641135&diff=800303992&oldid=800225596 this edit]: if you look closely at the sourcing, what it says is that investigators were treating the attack as "a domestic terrorist-type incident" or similar wording, rather than saying "Wade Page was a terrorist". This runs into problems with [[WP:OR]] and [[WP:TERRORIST]]. The article already says "Oak Creek police chief John Edwards said his force treated the incident as a "[[Homegrown terrorism|domestic terrorism]] incident"". Page obviously had links to far right organizations, but as the police chief said, we will never know exactly what went on in his head. I put back the part about him being an army veteran because this is reliably sourced and relevant information. As for [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Category:United_States_Domestic_Terrorists&action=edit&redlink=1 Category:United States Domestic Terrorists], this is a red link so there isn't a great deal of point in adding it.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|<span style="background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps">♦Ian<span style="background:#99c">Ma<span style="background:#aad">c</span></span>M♦</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]</sup>''''' 18:12, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
{{dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment | course = Wikipedia:Wiki_Ed/Skidmore_College/Asian_Religions_in_America_(Fall_2022) | assignments = [[User:Coop444|Coop444]] | start_date = 2022-09-07 | end_date = 2022-12-09 }}


<span class="wikied-assignment" style="font-size:85%;">— Assignment last updated by [[User:Ziegenbalg66|Ziegenbalg66]] ([[User talk:Ziegenbalg66|talk]]) 00:37, 16 November 2022 (UTC)</span>
== a problem with the infobox ==


== Recent edits to the lede ==
So, I don't know if the problem is with the size of my phone screen, but the text wrap isn't working correctly on my phone. The map size is a little too small for the infobox and this causes some the text below the map ("show map of") to be displayed on the left side of the map, and the rest of the text ("Wisconsin" and "show map of United States", "show both") . I tried fixing it but the preview doesn't work correctly in this case and I don't want to overwhelm someone's watchlist. [[User:TryKid|TryKid]] ([[User talk:TryKid|talk]]) 19:41, 13 October 2019 (UTC)


My edits adding that a police officer was wounded by the gunman were removed from the lede as "not needed". The lede has long included a minor detail that the gunman committed suicide after being shot in the hip by police. Instead of reverting, I removed this for the reason that follows:
:[https://imgur.com/a/8quT76K Here] is a screenshot of how it appears on my phone. Sure enough, some of the text is on the left. Since I rarely look at or edit Wikipedia articles on a phone screen, it is hard to know what to suggest here. The formatting works OK on my laptop.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|<span style="background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps">♦Ian<span style="background:#99c">Ma<span style="background:#aad">c</span></span>M♦</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]</sup>''''' 06:45, 14 October 2019 (UTC)


== Requested move 27 April 2021 ==


Gunfire was exchanged and police were shot at, and they shot back wounding the gunman. Why would we include half of the details of what happened without explaining why police were shooting in the first place? Especially when so much controversy surrounds police shootings (though usually not in these mass shooter events, any police shooting needs a justification). The most concise way to include all necessary details would be to include that he shot at police officer, and gunfire was being exchanged when police shot back.
{{requested move/dated|Oak Creek gurdwara shooting}}


Why is it so important to delete that a police officer was wounded? I'm not going to revert again, I'm just wondering. [[User:Ben Azura|Ben Azura]] ([[User talk:Ben Azura|talk]]) 00:47, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
[[:Wisconsin Sikh temple shooting]] → {{no redirect|Oak Creek gurdwara shooting}} – The current title is too vague and implies the shooting took place in a Sikh temple located somewhere in [[Wisconsin]]. "Oak Creek" is more specific, plus it aligns with other articles about mass shootings at places of worship, e.g. [[Charleston church shooting]], [[Christchurch mosque shootings]], [[Pittsburgh synagogue shooting]], etc. As for [[gurdwara]], it's the official term used for Sikh temples, for those of you who don't know. [[User:Love of Corey|Love of Corey]] ([[User talk:Love of Corey|talk]]) 20:12, 27 April 2021 (UTC) <small>—'''''Relisting.'''''&nbsp;[[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 06:16, 19 May 2021 (UTC)</small>


*'''Oppose''': I'm not a great fan of this proposed change. Unfortunately gurdwara is not a common English word, so it would be better to have something like "Oak Creek Sikh temple shooting".--'''''[[User:ianmacm|<span style="background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps">♦Ian<span style="background:#99c">Ma<span style="background:#aad">c</span></span>M♦</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]</sup>''''' 06:40, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
:The lead section is a summary, and the police response is dealt with in more detail in the [[Wisconsin_Sikh_temple_shooting#Shooting_and_police_response|Shooting and police response]] section.--'''''[[User:ianmacm|<span style="background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps">♦Ian<span style="background:#99c">Ma<span style="background:#aad">c</span></span>M♦</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]</sup>''''' 08:13, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
*'''SUpport''' per nom and consice[[User:Blindlynx|—blindlynx]] ([[User talk:Blindlynx|talk]]) 14:48, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
::The current version is an improvement. The now removed police response was an isolated detail. [[User:Ben Azura|Ben Azura]] ([[User talk:Ben Azura|talk]]) 08:22, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per [[WP:COMMONNAME]] as the headlines in the article's references show a clear preference for "Wisconsin" (35 mentions) over "Oak Creek" (14 mentions) and "Sikh temple" (35 mentions) over "gurdwara" (3 mentions, all by ''[[The Times of India]]''). The full phrase "Oak Creek gurdwara shooting" does not appear in any headlines, whereas "Wisconsin Sikh temple shooting" appears 2 times, "Sikh temple shooting" appears 14 times, and "Wisconsin temple shooting" appears 9 times. [[User:Rublov|Rublov]] ([[User talk:Rublov|talk]]) 01:29, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
::The same thing with references applies to [[Sutherland Springs church shooting]], yet here we are with that title. [[User:Love of Corey|Love of Corey]] ([[User talk:Love of Corey|talk]]) 06:49, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
*'''Support''', "Oak Creek" at minimum. Using Wisconsin is much too vague. '''''[[User:JackFromWisconsin|JackFromWisconsin]]''''' ([[User_talk:JackFromWisconsin|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/JackFromWisconsin|contribs]]) 13:08, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
*'''Support'''ish - I agree with what everyone has said. However, I think the title should be changed. Oak Creek should be included. I would like gurudwara to be in it, but i think it might be stretching it for much of the anglophony. --[[User:Awkwafaba|awkwafaba]] ([[User talk:Awkwafaba|📥]]) 23:09, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''', Google seems to show "Sikh temple" as much more common than "gurdwara" when searching this topic. [[User:162 etc.|162 etc.]] ([[User talk:162 etc.|talk]]) 18:38, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
::That does not appear to be the case [https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=sikh%20temple,gurdwara][[User:Blindlynx|—blindlynx]] ([[User talk:Blindlynx|talk]]) 14:19, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
:::To clarify, "Wisconsin Sikh temple shooting" pulls 10x more hits than "Wisconsin Gurdwara shooting". Top 3 results in my case are the New York Times, NPR, and Toronto Star, whose headlines use "Wisconsin Sikh temple". [[User:162 etc.|162 etc.]] ([[User talk:162 etc.|talk]]) 14:57, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
::::oh i see[[User:Blindlynx|—blindlynx]] ([[User talk:Blindlynx|talk]]) 15:02, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - Any update as to the status of this rename discussion? [[User:Love of Corey|Love of Corey]] ([[User talk:Love of Corey|talk]]) 18:39, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 10:33, 11 November 2024


what day of the week?

[edit]

what day of the week? 142.163.194.85 (talk) 15:04, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

August 5, 2012 was a Sunday, although per MOS:DATE the day is not usually given. Today marks the tenth anniversary of this shooting.[1]--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 15:49, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

My plans for this page

[edit]

For this page, I plan on adding more detail about the victims of this horrible event. I feel it is unjust for the shooter to be given a long description while detail on the victims is lacking. Along with this, I think this article could benefit from the history of violence on the Sikh community, specifically with the riots in Bellingham, Washington in 1907 and Live Oak, California in 1908. I think talking about how this unrecognized/denied a history of anti-Sikh violence perpetuates hate and allows events like this to re-occur. For information regarding this history I will be using an article by Bhogel and Parkville in the EBSCOhost database. In addition, although the article mentions some reactions after this event, I plan on adding more on the reactions and recovery in the Sikh Community through an article written by Alejandra Molina on the Washington Post. I believe this is a credible article because it utilizes families of the victims assuring these reactions are genuine and true. I will also be using the Academia database for information.

If anybody has any ideas or edits for my changes I would love to know. Please let me know on this talk page or mine~~~~coop444 Coop444 (talk) 18:59, 14 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Some of this would lead to WP:TOPIC problems. The article is about the Wisconsin incident, not the history of anti-Sikh violence in general. The Bellingham riots has its own article. Likewise, long lists of reactions, condolences etc can also lead to WP:TOPIC problems.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 08:30, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: Asian Religions in America

[edit]

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 7 September 2022 and 9 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Coop444 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Ziegenbalg66 (talk) 00:37, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Recent edits to the lede

[edit]

My edits adding that a police officer was wounded by the gunman were removed from the lede as "not needed". The lede has long included a minor detail that the gunman committed suicide after being shot in the hip by police. Instead of reverting, I removed this for the reason that follows:


Gunfire was exchanged and police were shot at, and they shot back wounding the gunman. Why would we include half of the details of what happened without explaining why police were shooting in the first place? Especially when so much controversy surrounds police shootings (though usually not in these mass shooter events, any police shooting needs a justification). The most concise way to include all necessary details would be to include that he shot at police officer, and gunfire was being exchanged when police shot back.

Why is it so important to delete that a police officer was wounded? I'm not going to revert again, I'm just wondering. Ben Azura (talk) 00:47, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The lead section is a summary, and the police response is dealt with in more detail in the Shooting and police response section.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 08:13, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The current version is an improvement. The now removed police response was an isolated detail. Ben Azura (talk) 08:22, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Wisconsin_Sikh_temple_shooting&oldid=1256744474"