Talk:Sand Key Light

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This has a very detailed and quite different history: http://www.lighthousefriends.com/light.asp?ID=699 According to that, Rebecca Flaherty was not the keeper for 16 years after her husband's death, there were a succession of keepers, and one of those other keeper's families died in the hurricane that wiped out the island and all its structures.

Why isn't Sand Key considered the southernmost point of land in Florida?

I was out boating this past weekend, and the depth chart maps clearly show Sand Key is much farther south than Ballast Key, which claims to be the southernmost point in Florida in its article. Is it because the land of Sand Key has disappeared a few times from hurricanes? There's land there now, so shouldn't the Southernmost point in Florida designation go to Sand Key? Here's a link that clearly shows land is there Sand Key reef aerial.

I see how the article Extreme points of the United States#48 contiguous states says that several sand bars are at least 7 km farther south and exposed at low tide, but this wasn't low tide it was midway between low & high and the sand bar was clearly exposed. If it is covered at high tide does that exclude it from being considered land? What if it continues to build up and is exposed even at high tide? I'm not sure any source exists for this since it seems to change its status with every passing storm. It seems that if there is land there most of the time then it should be considered land.

Another point - the depth chart on my father's boat (about a year old) has Sand Key marked as a small island and has it filled in yellow just as other islands on the chart are. This clearly indicates that the map company considers Sand Key to be an island. - Marc Averette 16:38, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Dead reference link

Note that the reference to "Florida Lighthouse Page - Sand Key Lighthouse" is dead. Someone should fix this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.163.5.165 (talk) 04:32, 7 September 2007 (UTC) I

Keeper in 1846

Copied from my talk page:

"Sand Key Lighthouse - Rebecca Flagerty"

Don, I have never previously edited anything on Wikipedia, and have not learned how to add sources as yet. Rebecca Flagerty was my family ancestor and left Sand Key by about 1840 with her second husband, Capt Fredick Neill, who also became the keeper for a period after their marriage in 1834, both later found back in Baltimore in the census records of 1840, 1850, and 1860. Aside from that, there are numerous hard sources on the lighthouse and its keepers noting which one actually died in the 1846 hurricane, Joshua Appleby. Here is one from the USCG Historian's Office online page: https://www.history.uscg.mil/Browse-by-Topic/Assets/Land/All/Article/1988486/sand-key-lighthouse/ Here is another, a reprint from the US Lighthouse Society: https://uslhs.org/sites/default/files/articles_pdf/sand_key.pdf

I should probably have learned how to add sources, and will go back to do so, but did not want the erroneous info retained on the page as it has been for some time. If you would add one of these sources, and put the correction back in, I would appreciate it why I deal with the learning curve. As long as it is correct, credit or other, is unimportant to me.

Thanks, Allan Garner

Allan Garner (talk) 17:53, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

@Allan Garner:, interestingly, the first source you linked to, the Sand Key Lighthouse page at the U. S. Coast Guard Historian's Office, says, "Rebecca Flaherty was keeper for 16 years following the death of her husband in 1830. The Great Havana Hurricane of 1846 eroded the sand so badly around the light; it collapsed, killing Rebecca Flaherty and five others." Basically the same story appears in Florida Lighthouses by Kevin McCarthy (University of Florida Press, 1990), and in Reef Lights by Love Dean (The Historic Key West Preservation Board, 1982). Dean provides footnotes, sourcing the story of Rebecca Flaherty's tenure as keeper and her death in the loss of the lighthouse in 1846 to "Sand Key Lighthouse File, Monroe County Public Library, Key West, Florida" and "Sand Key Light-station, Clipping File, Record Group No. 26, National Archives, Washington, D.C." McCarthy may have picked up the story from Dean (McCarthy does not name sources for his book), but Dean cites original records. On the other hand, the keepers' list on the USCG page shows Rebecca Flaherty being replaced as keeper sometime in the 1830s, with Joshua Appleby serving as keeper from 1837 until his death in 1846. Unfortunately, Thomas Taylor does not cite any sources for his article in the The Keeper's Log.

We have a conflict here between sources. I will post in WikiProject Lighthouses to see if anyone who works on lighthouse articles is willing to help sort this out. - Donald Albury 20:45, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

I am aware of some discrepancies in some accounts, but I think the noted sources are clear and some individuals simply made some errors as in the CG Historian's page noted below. As per some additional documentation, as Rebecca was a family ancestor, I also have her marriage record from Monroe FL in 1934 (married at Sand Key Light), her second husband is then noted as taking over as keeper (also per the list of keepers). He is then recorded as "resigning" prior to 1840, and proof Rebecca was no longer there in 1846, are then census records of 1840 for her and her second husband, her again in 1850, and 1860 in Baltimore.

That would all certainly seem to me to refute any account she died there in 1846, still the keeper, having not remarried and with her first husband's name.

The noted USCG Historian's site makes an initial statement of Rebecca staying 16 years after her first husband's death, and dying there in 1846, but below that, on the same page, it lists all the subsequent keepers, including her second husband, which contradicts the first statement, also noting the correct keeper dying there in 1846. The reprint from the Lighthouse Society referenced, goes into much greater detail, and is also supported by the additional records found and noted, the Lighthouse Society link again: https://uslhs.org/sites/default/files/articles_pdf/sand_key.pdf Allan Garner (talk) 21:55, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

As I replied to you on my talk page, material added to Wikipedia articles must meet the requirements of policies, including Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Reliable sources, and Wikipedia:No original research. Any documents you possess, or know of, cannot be used to support material in a Wikipedia article, unless they have been discussed in a reliable, published, source. We must be satisfied that the Lighthouse Society article is acceptable as a reliable source, and then how much weight to give that article against the other sources, per the policy at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Due and undue weight. That is why I am hoping for input from other experienced editors. - Donald Albury 23:21, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

While I certainly agree with Donald Albury that Allan Garner's information, while probably true, should be considered WP:OR, I would also say sources are contradictory. If I would to judge, I think Taylor has the right story, but I am not to judge because that is also WP:OR. I think the best thing is to keep the facts we are certain of in the body and add a note, as I did in this version of the document. I think this is both a good compromise and the most encyclopedically correct solution, but I don't really feel like arguing my point, so feel free to revert me and keep arguing. --Muhandes (talk) 15:23, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

@Muhandes:, I'm fine with your solution. I have done similar things in other articles, presenting alternative versions when reliable sources supporting each version are cited. - Donald Albury 15:36, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Gentlemen, as new to editing on this site, and the guidelines, I do not follow some of this...yet. As information, one source I have is a 2010 master's thesis, footnoted of course, approved and published by the university. It includes Rebecca Flaherty in detail, but stops on Sand Key after her departure, noting nothing of the later hurricane. It was at one time referenced on the USCG Historian's web site, but now cannot be found there (newer website). That thesis footnotes Taylor, with specific references to his references to the actual lighthouse logs. One thing I do not follow here is that a thesis requirement is it be "original research" and provide "new knowledge", so does that mean it does not qualify as a source on this site? How about official marriage records and US census records?...are they not acceptable? No real need to answer at this point, but I would like to be clear. I have now contacted the USCG Historian's office, included all sources plus the thesis once noted as on their site, pointed out the discrepancy on the page, and asked that they address it accordingly, if deemed warranted. They have been asked to advise, and if they do modify the site, and if I then attempt to edit the Sand Key page again, I assume that one "source" will be acceptable to modify the page, and will avoid the issues on Taylor, the thesis, and census records. I see no real need to go deeper on Rebecca on the page, just correct the erroneous remark on her tenure and death. Allan Garner (talk) 17:20, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

@Allan Garner: This is not the place for a lengthy explanation, and I will probably not do as good a job as the "no original research" page already does, so my suggestion is to start there and if something is still unclear leave me a note at my talk page and I will be happy to explain. --Muhandes (talk) 18:55, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

In looking at the revision and note added on the Sand Key page, that seeming adequate qualification...thank you. If I hear back from the CG, and they have made the change to their site, I will advise, so perhaps the note can be updated, if desired. The other noted sources will still remain contradictory, of course. Allan Garner (talk) 18:04, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

@Allan Garner:, please note that the Scholarship section of the policy on reliable sources restricts the use of master's theses or dissertations. I understand that it can be frustrating to know something, but not be able to add it to a Wikipedia article because it has not yet been published in a reliable source. The best we can do is hope that the information will eventually appear in a reputable source. - Donald Albury 20:46, 2 June 2021 (UTC)