Talk:John Ashcroft: Difference between revisions
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== The "moderate/dead skunk" quote == |
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I don't think this has any historical relevance to anything. Sorry to not have a sense of humor about it, but hey, that's life... |
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== bad == |
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you guys cannot cite an op/ed piece as a reference. |
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== Ashcroft's Changing Position == |
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This was blogged on kottke.org some time ago. I think this is very much worthy of mention. Anyone want to incorporate this? Before - http://usinfo.state.gov/journals/itgic/1097/ijge/gj-7.htm |
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and after - http://news.com.com/2010-1071_3-983921.html |
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== Neutrality == |
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I have removed a number of POV references in this article. And while it's a great pastime painting Attorneys-General as the Great Satan, be it Reno or Ashcroft, it doesn't make a neutral article and that is the point. [[User:Libertas|Libertas]] |
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== Famous homophobe == |
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== Merge proposal: [[The Ashcroft Group]] to John Ashcroft == |
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So why isn't Ashcroft's homophobia mentioned in the article? Hmmmm? --[[Special:Contributions/24.21.149.124|24.21.149.124]] ([[User talk:24.21.149.124|talk]]) 06:26, 10 December 2008 (UTC) |
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The Ashcroft Group has beent agged for notability for 7 years, but could be a valuable section here. [[User:Boleyn|Boleyn]] ([[User talk:Boleyn|talk]]) 14:11, 13 April 2015 (UTC) |
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== Ashcroft and the Ku Klux Klan == |
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:I've gone ahead and made the redirect since nobody objected. It made sense since that page was a stub and it seems to fit better here. [[User:FuriouslySerene|FuriouslySerene]] ([[User talk:FuriouslySerene|talk]]) 18:03, 1 April 2016 (UTC) |
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== External links modified == |
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John Ashcroft was caught on video at a "Good ol Boys" meeting in Lone Jack, MO. The "Good ol Boys" is a known Ku Klux Klan chapter. Someone with good research skills should find reliable sources on this and post this under the controversy section. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/71.51.192.67|71.51.192.67]] ([[User talk:71.51.192.67|talk]]) 00:43, 17 December 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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Hello fellow Wikipedians, |
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== Medical Marijuana == |
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I have just added archive links to {{plural:3|one external link|3 external links}} on [[John Ashcroft]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=677934328 my edit]. If necessary, add {{tlx|cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{tlx|nobots|deny{{=}}InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes: |
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What is your view on medical use of marijuana? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/174.152.242.217|174.152.242.217]] ([[User talk:174.152.242.217|talk]]) 23:25, 17 March 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20150713143406/http://www.lawteam.com/our-team/evan-fetterman/ to http://www.lawteam.com/our-team/evan-fetterman/ |
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:This isn't [[Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines|a forum for general chit-chat.]] Ask somewhere else. --<font face="comic sans">[[User:Crackthewhip775|<span style="color:#C66">Wh</span><span style="color:#600">ip</span> <span style="color:#C33">it</span><span style="color:#900">!</span>]] [[User talk:Crackthewhip775|<sup>Now whip it good!</sup>]]</font> 02:54, 3 April 2009 (UTC) |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20081027164557/http://www.cnn.com:80/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/09/cabinet.resignations/index.html to http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/09/cabinet.resignations/index.html |
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{{sourcecheck|checked=true}} |
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== Proposed revisions == |
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I'm writing here to put forth a number of suggestions about fixes to this article, which I will refrain from making directly because Mr. Ashcroft is a client of my employer. Although I believe all of my suggestions are clearly line with Wikipedia's policies, given that he is a much talked-about figure I think it best to make suggestions rather than direct edits. Note that these are only a few of the problems I see with this article, and merely the easiest to resolve: |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120220000917/http://www.hillnews.com/thehill/export/TheHill/News/Frontpage/050306/guns.html to http://www.hillnews.com/thehill/export/TheHill/News/Frontpage/050306/guns.html |
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===Inappropriate link in body=== |
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The longest paragraph of the section '''U.S. Senator''' contains this line: |
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' to let others know. |
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:In the Republican primary, Ashcroft defeated Marc Perkel.[2] |
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{{sourcecheck|checked=failed}} |
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That "[2]" is an external link to Mr. Perkel's personal site, which runs afoul of [[WP:ELPOINTS]] ("External links should not normally be used in the body of an article") and I submit that it should be removed. |
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Cheers. —[[User:Cyberbot II|<sup style="color:green;font-family:Courier">cyberbot II</sup>]]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS">[[User talk:Cyberbot II|<span style="color:green">Talk to my owner</span>]]:Online</sub></small> 12:21, 26 August 2015 (UTC) |
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===Unsupported claims=== |
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The section '''Council of Conservative Citizens connections''' has several [[WP:BLP]] issues. This section relies entirely upon a ''Salon'' column[http://archive.salon.com/news/col/cona/2001/01/16/ashcroft/print.html] by [[Joe Conason]], which does not make certain claims included in the section. One says Mr. Ashcroft |
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== Joseph Massino == |
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:"had extensive previous contact with Bugel between 1987 and 1993" |
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<nowiki>One of [[John Ashcroft]]'s final acts as Attorney General was to order federal prosecutors to seek the death penalty for Massino.<ref>{{cite news|last=Glaberson|first=William|title=Judge Objects to Ashcroft Bid for a Mobster's Execution|url=http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/13/nyregion/13mob.html?ref=roslynnrmauskopf&pagewanted=print&position=|accessdate=2012-04-21|newspaper=The New York Times|date=2004-11-13}}</ref></nowiki> [[User:The Quixotic Potato|The Quixotic Potato]] ([[User talk:The Quixotic Potato|talk]]) 15:55, 19 February 2016 (UTC) |
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Conason does say that Bugel "led a white militant faction" of the St. Louis school board at this time, but does not say Mr. Ashcroft had any contact with him, only that Mr. Ashcroft -- who was then Missouri's attorney general and governor -- should have known more about Mr. Bugel than he claimed in 2001. The section also says Mr. Ashcroft |
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== Duplication of "curtain" info == |
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:"sided with Bugel." |
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The information re the curtain being drawn in front of two statues (Spirit of Justice, a female, and the male Majesty of Justice) occurs in two sections of this entry. |
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It is more fully covered in the section "Political Issues" than in "As U.S. Attorney General." I was planning to eliminate the less detailed version but felt someone might have a reason it should be mentioned twice (?) |
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[[User:JeanEva Rose|JeanEva Rose]] ([[User talk:JeanEva Rose|talk]]) 21:45, 14 January 2017 (UTC) |
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: Well done, thank you. [[Special:Contributions/2601:246:C700:19D:B160:B273:E4A3:8B0F|2601:246:C700:19D:B160:B273:E4A3:8B0F]] ([[User talk:2601:246:C700:19D:B160:B273:E4A3:8B0F|talk]]) 05:50, 31 January 2020 (UTC) |
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== External links modified == |
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The section does not say what, specifically, Mr. Ashcroft sided with him about. More to the point, the Conason column does not make a similar allegation. Lastly, this section concludes with a standalone paragraph which states: |
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Hello fellow Wikipedians, |
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:"Ashcroft had previously denounced the CofCC as racist, after a controversial interview in Southern Partisan magazine in which he expressed views that were widely interpreted as pro-Confederacy." |
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I have just modified 4 external links on [[John Ashcroft]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=776909475 my edit]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes: |
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No citation is given, but it seems clear that Conason's column again was the source, as Conason wrote: "Despite the pro-Confederate views he expressed in that interview, Ashcroft has taken pains to dissociate himself from the kind of racist and nativist positions taken by Baum and Bugel." A Google search[http://www.google.com/search?q="john+ashcroft"+"pro-confederate+views"] revealed only a couple sources (none besides Conason approaching [[WP:RS]]) describing Ashcroft himself or his remarks to Southern Partisan as "pro-confederate," and Conasan's perspective alone cannot justify the phrase "widely interpreted." I suggest this be removed or rephrased to more accurately describe it as Conason's view. |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090523090051/http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2001/01/16/hearings/print.html to http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2001/01/16/hearings/print.html |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120418111431/http://archives.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/11/07/senate.missouri/ to http://archives.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/11/07/senate.missouri/ |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080615012748/http://sopr.senate.gov/ to http://sopr.senate.gov/ |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110516205806/http://www.whitehouse.org/media/ashcroft-bacon/ to http://www.whitehouse.org/media/ashcroft-bacon/ |
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs. |
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===Another sunsupported claim=== |
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A smaller issue occurs in the section '''CIA leak conflict of interest allegation''', where it says Rep. John Conyers |
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{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}} |
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:"described this [Ashcroft allegedly being briefed on the FBI investigation of the Valerie Plame leak], and many other acts of Republicans as a 'stunning ethical breach that cries out for immediate investigation.'" |
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Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 02:23, 24 April 2017 (UTC) |
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However, the source[http://www.pacifica.org/programs/dn/050818.html] makes clear that in this instance, Rep. Conyers was speaking only of Ashcroft and the investigation. Therefore, the clause "and many other acts of Republicans" should be removed. |
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== External links modified == |
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===Apparent "Coatrack" issue=== |
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Under the '''Controversies''' section there is a subsection titled '''Role in Alberto Gonzales resignation'''; however, there appears to be little controversy about Mr. Ashcroft's actions in this case. Indeed, he was in the hospital for the incident which dominates the first half of the section, and the central players were acting AG [[James Comey]], White House CoS [[Andrew Card]] and WH counsel [[Alberto Gonzales]]. If nothing else, this does not belong in under Controversies. However, it strikes me as rather [[WP:COATRACK]]-y, in that it "ostensibly discusses the nominal subject, but in reality is a cover for a tangentially related biased subject." I submit that it be considered for removal, as it is not really about Mr. Ashcroft at all -- though it is positioned as a controversy surrounding him -- and all of this material is well-covered on the page about Mr. Gonzales. |
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Hello fellow Wikipedians, |
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===Inappropriate external link=== |
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Lastly, '''External links''' contains a link to an essay titled "Dead Man Winning"[http://www.dcdave.com/article4/011228a.html] by an individual named Hugh Turley. This essay appears to be unpublished, except for being hosted on the personal website of a self-identified friend of Turley. I believe it should be removed per [[WP:ELNO]], which states: "Links to blogs, personal web pages and most fansites, except those written by a recognized authority (this exception is meant to be very limited; as a minimum standard, recognized authorities always meet Wikipedia's notability criteria for biographies)." Needless to say, Mr. Turley does not meet these standards. |
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I have just modified one external link on [[John Ashcroft]]. Please take a moment to review [[special:diff/812297632|my edit]]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes: |
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End of requests. |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070311114121/http://www.whitehouse.org/media/ashcroft-bacon/index.asp to http://www.whitehouse.org/media/ashcroft-bacon/index.asp |
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs. |
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That may be a lot to digest, but I think the issues are fairly straightforward. I am appending a template requesting edits to the end of this section [note: I've moved it to the top, where it apparently belongs] but if there are questions about the issues in this article, I am happy to discuss. Thanks. [[User:NMS Bill|NMS Bill]] ([[User talk:NMS Bill|talk]]) 16:29, 18 May 2009 (UTC) |
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{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}} |
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:Following this here from the note at BLP/N. Reviewing the proposed edits, they appear to be perfectly fine and appropriate corrections. I would have no problem with NMS making these edits; I think submitting edits for review, based on a conflict of interest, is sufficient - having a third party actually make the edits is unnecessary in my view. [[User:Nathan|<strong style="color:#0033CC">Nathan</strong>]][[User talk:Nathan|<sup><strong style="color:#0033CC"> T </strong></sup>]] 19:58, 19 May 2009 (UTC) |
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Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 03:45, 27 November 2017 (UTC) |
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::Thank you, Nathan. I will wait a bit longer, just in case someone does have an objection, but if as I assume there are not I will proceed with the edits as described above. [[User:NMS Bill|NMS Bill]] ([[User talk:NMS Bill|talk]]) 20:13, 19 May 2009 (UTC) |
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==Musican Category== |
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:::Well -- I found merit in your points. [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 20:36, 19 May 2009 (UTC) |
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It might be just me but the musican categories strike me as out of place. Despite his musical activity he clearly an amateur (I don’t mean that as a knock). The musican categories are really only meant for professional musican or people who meet Notability for their musical activities-not for hobbiest, no matter how famous otherwise. Does anybody have any thoughts? [[User:Grey Wanderer|Grey Wanderer]] ([[User talk:Grey Wanderer|talk]]) 05:41, 6 February 2019 (UTC) |
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:Personally would not call this guy a musician. Or a "musican." [[User:Sharptictack|Sharptictack]] ([[User talk:Sharptictack|talk]]) 22:37, 15 June 2022 (UTC) |
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::::Thanks, Collect. I appreciate the help. I've completed the revisions as described above, removing the claims not supported by Conason's column and excising the lengthy section about Gonzales. Article still has numerous problems, but this is a good start. [[User:NMS Bill|NMS Bill]] ([[User talk:NMS Bill|talk]]) 21:24, 19 May 2009 (UTC) |
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== Second paragraph == |
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:NMSBill- i think it's great that you handled the matter as you did. Cheers, [[User:Dlohcierekim|<font color="#00ff00"> Dloh</font>]][[User_talk:Dlohcierekim|<font color="#bb00bb">cierekim''' </font>]] 20:07, 20 May 2009 (UTC) |
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"He has written several books about political and ethic." This doesn't make sense. Please fix. [[Special:Contributions/108.226.82.214|108.226.82.214]] ([[User talk:108.226.82.214|talk]]) 04:01, 14 October 2019 (UTC) |
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== Reeks of OR == |
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==Issues with correspondence between stated sources and content== |
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<blockquote> |
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See edit summary just before time stamp of this Talk entry. I checked one of several paragraphs in one section, and found repeated violations of WP:VERIFY. Earlier references to "pancreatitis", Stellar Wind, "semi-conscious"-ness, and phone call to security detail (¶4, earlier and closing sentences) were not found in the appearing end-of-paragraph source. (Oddly, the source was placed after the last sentence, which in particular was also not verifiable at that source!) Likely, this fast-and-loose approach was used elsewhere, so I would recommend a top-down check of sources here. Cheers. [[Special:Contributions/2601:246:C700:19D:B160:B273:E4A3:8B0F|2601:246:C700:19D:B160:B273:E4A3:8B0F]] ([[User talk:2601:246:C700:19D:B160:B273:E4A3:8B0F|talk]]) 05:49, 31 January 2020 (UTC) |
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Ashcroft's spokeswoman Mindy Tucker asserted that he had not known that Bugel was associated with the CofCC, when Bugel had been a member of the St. Louis school board vociferously defending segregation, and Ashcroft had been attorney general and governor of Missouri. During that period, Bugel's leadership of the local branch of the CofCC, the Metro South Citizens Council, was often noted in the media.[20] |
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</blockquote> |
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== Not notable as Songwriter/Musician == |
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This sounds like "Well, he said he didn't know, but the guy was prominent so he should have." That is textbook OR, and not appropriate.[[Special:Contributions/67.175.13.87|67.175.13.87]] ([[User talk:67.175.13.87|talk]]) 12:53, 16 February 2010 (UTC) |
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== File:Ashcroft soj.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion == |
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TL/DR - he is not known for being either a songwriter or musician, so why is songwriter in the lead sentence and the page in a musicians category? Removing songwriter from lead sentence, any views on musician category? |
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| An image used in this article, [[commons:File:Ashcroft soj.jpg|File:Ashcroft soj.jpg]], has been nominated for speedy deletion at [[Wikimedia Commons]] for the following reason: ''Copyright violations'' |
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;What should I do? |
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| Speedy deletions at commons tend to take longer than they do on Wikipedia, so there is no rush to respond. If you feel the deletion can be contested then please do so ([[commons:COM:SPEEDY]] has further information). Otherwise consider finding a replacement image before deletion occurs. |
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This guy has written and recorded a few songs but it is not something he is known for at all. His musical activities do not even have their own section in this page, it makes up a couple of lines in his personal life section. While notable enough for inclusion in the article, to mention it in the lead section is clearly [[WP:UNDUE]]. Without his political career, his music work alone would unlikely make him noteable enough for his own page - it is little more than [[Wikipedia:Trivia section|WP:TRIVIA]]. [[User:John wiki|John wiki]]: [[User talk:John wiki|If you have a problem, don't mess with my puppy...]] 17:53, 20 March 2022 (UTC) |
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''This notification is provided by a Bot'' --[[User:CommonsNotificationBot|CommonsNotificationBot]] ([[User talk:CommonsNotificationBot|talk]]) 19:15, 22 June 2011 (UTC) |
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Merge proposal: The Ashcroft Group to John Ashcroft
[edit]The Ashcroft Group has beent agged for notability for 7 years, but could be a valuable section here. Boleyn (talk) 14:11, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
- I've gone ahead and made the redirect since nobody objected. It made sense since that page was a stub and it seems to fit better here. FuriouslySerene (talk) 18:03, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
External links modified
[edit]Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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Joseph Massino
[edit]One of [[John Ashcroft]]'s final acts as Attorney General was to order federal prosecutors to seek the death penalty for Massino.<ref>{{cite news|last=Glaberson|first=William|title=Judge Objects to Ashcroft Bid for a Mobster's Execution|url=http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/13/nyregion/13mob.html?ref=roslynnrmauskopf&pagewanted=print&position=|accessdate=2012-04-21|newspaper=The New York Times|date=2004-11-13}}</ref> The Quixotic Potato (talk) 15:55, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
Duplication of "curtain" info
[edit]The information re the curtain being drawn in front of two statues (Spirit of Justice, a female, and the male Majesty of Justice) occurs in two sections of this entry. It is more fully covered in the section "Political Issues" than in "As U.S. Attorney General." I was planning to eliminate the less detailed version but felt someone might have a reason it should be mentioned twice (?) JeanEva Rose (talk) 21:45, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
- Well done, thank you. 2601:246:C700:19D:B160:B273:E4A3:8B0F (talk) 05:50, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
External links modified
[edit]Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on John Ashcroft. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090523090051/http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2001/01/16/hearings/print.html to http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2001/01/16/hearings/print.html
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120418111431/http://archives.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/11/07/senate.missouri/ to http://archives.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/11/07/senate.missouri/
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080615012748/http://sopr.senate.gov/ to http://sopr.senate.gov/
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110516205806/http://www.whitehouse.org/media/ashcroft-bacon/ to http://www.whitehouse.org/media/ashcroft-bacon/
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External links modified
[edit]Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on John Ashcroft. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070311114121/http://www.whitehouse.org/media/ashcroft-bacon/index.asp to http://www.whitehouse.org/media/ashcroft-bacon/index.asp
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Musican Category
[edit]It might be just me but the musican categories strike me as out of place. Despite his musical activity he clearly an amateur (I don’t mean that as a knock). The musican categories are really only meant for professional musican or people who meet Notability for their musical activities-not for hobbiest, no matter how famous otherwise. Does anybody have any thoughts? Grey Wanderer (talk) 05:41, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
- Personally would not call this guy a musician. Or a "musican." Sharptictack (talk) 22:37, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
Second paragraph
[edit]"He has written several books about political and ethic." This doesn't make sense. Please fix. 108.226.82.214 (talk) 04:01, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
Issues with correspondence between stated sources and content
[edit]See edit summary just before time stamp of this Talk entry. I checked one of several paragraphs in one section, and found repeated violations of WP:VERIFY. Earlier references to "pancreatitis", Stellar Wind, "semi-conscious"-ness, and phone call to security detail (¶4, earlier and closing sentences) were not found in the appearing end-of-paragraph source. (Oddly, the source was placed after the last sentence, which in particular was also not verifiable at that source!) Likely, this fast-and-loose approach was used elsewhere, so I would recommend a top-down check of sources here. Cheers. 2601:246:C700:19D:B160:B273:E4A3:8B0F (talk) 05:49, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
Not notable as Songwriter/Musician
[edit]TL/DR - he is not known for being either a songwriter or musician, so why is songwriter in the lead sentence and the page in a musicians category? Removing songwriter from lead sentence, any views on musician category?
This guy has written and recorded a few songs but it is not something he is known for at all. His musical activities do not even have their own section in this page, it makes up a couple of lines in his personal life section. While notable enough for inclusion in the article, to mention it in the lead section is clearly WP:UNDUE. Without his political career, his music work alone would unlikely make him noteable enough for his own page - it is little more than WP:TRIVIA. John wiki: If you have a problem, don't mess with my puppy... 17:53, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
- Biography articles of living people
- B-Class biography articles
- B-Class biography (musicians) articles
- Unknown-importance biography (musicians) articles
- Musicians work group articles
- WikiProject Biography articles
- B-Class WikiProject Illinois articles
- Low-importance WikiProject Illinois articles
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