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==A matter of accuracy==
I know there are frequent inaccuracies here and the effect of centuries of propaganda is inevitable but depite that it is reasonably sound. I know there was no nation of ancient Greece. What there was was an ancient-Greek-speaking network of poleis streching all across the Mediterranean. It was vastly larger than modern Greece. So, it wasn't the same at all. Different species of animal. Not a nation. The nation of course is relatively recent. The U. of Copenhagen did a 10-year flag study of the polis, which need to be brought in. So, I'm saying the ideology here is somewhat behind the study. Needs to be brought up to date. Second, overbriefness has resulted in certain inaccuracies. This great plain of lower Macedonia the article begins with didn't exist. There was no plain there. It was the Thermaic Gulf plus wetlands. The states were all squeezed between it and the mountains. I'm working on this under [[Emathia]]. And finally, the article does not make clear that "Macedonian" meant different thing at different times. The original Macedonians were around Mt Olympus. So, there is more work here if anyone dares to risk it. Oh, one thing more. Beekes is a good linguist I am sure but he tends to be something of a wild man in some of his etymologies, as when he discovers the source of all the Etruscans in the Mediterranean hiding in a section of Anatolia about the size of a county. "The slim men" indeed. Why don't we name them after their hair-do? Highlanders is much more likely.[[User:Botteville|Botteville]] ([[User talk:Botteville|talk]]) 19:23, 13 January 2024 (UTC)


== The character of the ancient Macedonians ==
== No debate among modern historians ==
'''
Per [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view]], I think the following should be in the lead, as whether the ancient Macedonians were Greek and spoke Greek is a subject to debate within academia:'''


''The '''Macedonians''' ({{lang-el|Μακεδόνες}}, ''Makedónes'') were an ancient tribe that lived on the [[alluvial plain]] around the rivers [[Haliacmon]] and lower [[Vardar|Axios]] in the northeastern part of [[Geography of Greece#Mainland|mainland Greece]]. Some scholars maintain that they were [[Ancient Greece|ancient Hellenic]],<ref name="Macedonians">{{harvnb|Worthington|2014|loc=Chapter Two: Alexander's Inheritance, p. 10}}; {{harvnb|Zacharia|2008|loc=Simon Hornblower, "Greek Identity in the Archaic and Classical Periods", pp. 55–58}}; {{harvnb|Joint Association of Classical Teachers|1984|pp=50–51}}; {{harvnb|Errington|1990|pap=3–4}}; {{harvnb|Fine|1983|pp=607–608}}; {{harvnb|Hall|2000|p=64}}; {{harvnb|Hammond|2001|p=11}}; {{harvnb|Jones|2001|p=21}}; {{harvnb|Osborne|2004|p=127}}; {{harvnb|Hammond|1989|pp=12–13}}; {{harvnb|Hammond|1993|p=97}}; {{harvnb|Starr|1991|pp=260, 367}}; {{harvnb|Toynbee|1981|p=67}}; {{harvnb|Worthington|2008|pp=8, 219}}; {{harvnb|Chamoux|2002|p=8}}; {{harvnb|Cawkwell|1978|p=22}}; {{harvnb|Perlman|1973|p=78}}; {{harvnb|Hamilton|1974|loc=Chapter 2: The Macedonian Homeland, p. 23}}; {{harvnb|Bryant|1996|p=306}}; {{harvnb|O'Brien|1994|p=25}}.</ref> and that they gradually expanded from their homeland along the Haliacmon valley on the northern edge of the Hellenic world, absorbing or driving out neighbouring non-Hellenic tribes, primarily [[Thracians|Thracian]] and [[Illyrians|Illyrian]].<ref>{{harvnb|Trudgill|2002|p=125}}; {{harvnb|Theodossiev|2000|pp=175–209}}.</ref><ref name="GroupedRef4">{{harvnb|Christesen|Murray|2010|p=428}}.</ref> However, other scholars maintain that the ancient Macedonians were of a non-Hellenic origin and were thus closely related to the neighbouring [[Paeonia (kingdom)|Paeonians]], [[List of ancient tribes in Illyria|Illyrians]] and [[Thracians]], arguing that there is a lack of archeological or linguistic evidence to support a Dorian invasion, which is a legacy of 19th century historiography.<ref>{{Cite book|last=Borza|first=Eugene|title=In the Shadow of Olympus: The Emergence of Macedon|publisher=Princeton University Press|year=1990|isbn=9780691215945|location=Princeton|pages=92|quote=Both Herodotus and Thycidides describe the Macedonians as foreigners, a distinct people lying outside the frontiers of the Greek-city states.}}</ref><ref>{{Cite book|last=Borza|first=Eugene|title=In the Shadow of Olympus: The Emergence of Macedon|publisher=Princeton University Press|year=1990|isbn=9780691008806|location=Princeton|pages=65|quote=The theory of the Dorian invasions ... is largely an invention of nineteenth-century historiography, and is otherwise unsupported by either archeological or linguistic evidence.}}</ref><ref>{{Cite book|last=Worthington|first=Ian|title=By the Spear : Philip II, Alexander the Great, and the Rise and Fall of the Macedonian Empire|publisher=Oxford University|year=2014|isbn=9780199929863|location=Oxford|pages=20|quote=Culture, therefore, had nothing to do with being a "barbarian". What Greeks meant by the term was someone who did not speak Greek. Twice during his reign Alexander was said to speak in Macedonian, the first time at the trial of his general Philotas in 330 and the second time in a verbal fight with Cleitus in 328. Thus the Macedonians may have been a Slavic people who came in contact with Greeks and embraced their culture. However, the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians is controversial because of the nature of the evidence, which is all Greek and so biased.}}</ref><ref>{{Cite book|last=King|first=Carol J.|title=Ancient Macedonia|publisher=Routledge|year=2018|isbn=978-1-315-17741-0|location=Milton Park|pages=11}}</ref><ref>{{Cite book|last=Heckel|first=Waldemar|title=The Conquests of Alexander the Great|publisher=Cambridge University Press|year=2008|isbn=978-0-511-36742-7|location=Cambridge|pages=13-14}}</ref><ref>{{Cite book|last=Harl|first=Kenneth W.|title=Alexander the Great and the Macedonian Empire|publisher=The Teaching Company|year=2010|isbn=|location=|pages=11|quote=In 359 B.C., Macedon was an unstable barbarian kingdom on the fringes of the Hellenic world. Macedon’s kings, members of the Argead dynasty, claimed Greek descent and ruled over a mix of different peoples including Macedonians, but many others as well, none of whom were regarded as Hellenes, or members of the Greek national race. To Greeks, the Macedonians were regarded as “barbarians.” Archaeology has revealed that the Macedonians never participated in the material culture of the Greek world since the Late Bronze Age. Greek immigrants and goods were welcomed, but Macedonians remained a distinct, speaking a language unintelligible to Greek. King Archelaus adopted Attic Greek as the court language, built roads, and established market towns, but his subjects remained in habits far closer to their Balkan neighbors Illyrians, Paeonians, and Thracians.}}</ref>

''The language of the ancient Macedonians was [[Ancient Macedonian language|Ancient Macedonian]]. The character of the language that they spoke is largely unknown.<ref>{{Cite book|last=Wilcken|first=Ulrich|title=Alexander the Great|publisher=Hauraki Publishing|year=2016|isbn=9781787202580|location=|pages=16|quote=Linguistic science has at its disposal a very limited quantity of Macedonian words, and the archaeological exploration of Macedonia has hardly begun.}}</ref><ref>{{Cite book|last=Woodard|first=Roger D.|title=Language in Ancient Europe: An Introduction|publisher=Cambridge University Press|year=2008|isbn=978-0521684958|location=Cambridge|pages=9|quote=Much uncertainty surrounds the linguistic status of the Macedonian people.}}</ref> Some scholars maintain that it was a language [[Hellenic languages|closely related]] to [[Ancient Greek]] or a [[Doric Greek]] dialect, although the [[Lingua franca|prestige language]] of the region was at first [[Attic Greek|Attic]] and then [[Koine Greek]].<ref name="BJoseph">B. Joseph (2001): "Ancient Greek". In: J. Garry et al. (eds.) ''Facts about the World's Major Languages: An Encyclopedia of the World's Major Languages, Past and Present.'' [http://www.ling.ohio-state.edu/~bjoseph/articles/gancient.htm Online Paper]</ref> However, other scholars argue that Ancient Macedonian was not a [[Hellenic languages|Hellenic language]] and that it was instead a separate language, closer to the [[Thracian language|Thracian]] and [[Illyrian languages|Illyrian]] languages, based on the distinction of of the Ancient Macedonian by ancient authors, as well as the surviving Macedonian words that were non-Greek loanwords.<ref>{{Cite book|last=Woodard|first=Roger D.|title=Language in Ancient Europe: An Introduction|publisher=Cambridge University Press|year=2008|isbn=978-0521684958|location=Cambridge|pages=9-11}}</ref><ref>{{Cite book|last=Borza|first=Eugene|title=In the Shadow of Olympus: The Emergence of Macedon|publisher=Princeton University Press|year=1990|isbn=0-691-05549-1|location=Princeton|pages=92-93|quote=The main evidence for Macedonian existing as separate language comes from a handful of late sources describing events in the train of Alexander the Great, where the Macedonian tongue is mentioned specifically. (p. 92); The handful of surviving genuine Macedonian words—not loanwords from Greek—do not show the changes expected from a Greek dialect. And even had they changed at some point it is unlikely that they would have reverted to their original form. In this respect Macedonian seems closer to Illyrian and Thracian than to the Greek dialects. (p. 93).}}</ref>''

''

'''I initially placed this in the lead however other editors instantly attacked my change. I would like to get the input of editors which are not from [[Greece]], [[Bulgaria]], [[North Macedonia]] or [[Albania]], as this article needs to be neutral. I can provide even more sources than the ones I provided before hand. I have been accused of my edits being heavily POV, but they are not, I am just trying to neutralize an article which heavily shifts towards the Greek POV, despite there not being a consensus in academia on this matter.'''

Thanks, [[User:Dikaiosyni|Dikaiosyni]] ([[User talk:Dikaiosyni|talk]]) 05:17, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
{{reflist talk}}
:Ok, first of all, you don't get to ''demand'' to exclude users from this discussion based on their nationality. That's just ridiculous. Second, your edits are not just POV, but ''heavily'' so. You misuse the sources to push a very typical POV. For example, you wrote that "they were closer to the Paeonians", but that is not backed by the sources. Another example: You cite Borza as one of the scholars that stated the Macedonians were not Hellenic, but you cite a passage where Borza only states that "Herodotus and Thucydides considered them barbarians". In other words, these are the views of two ancient sources, not those of Borza himself. In fact, on page 78, Borza states that {{tq|the 'highlanders' or 'Makedones' of the mountainous regions of western Macedonia are derived from northwest Greek stock.}} [https://books.google.com/books?id=614pd07OtfQC]. You also selectively and misleadingly quote Ian Worthington, who is one of the strongest proponents of the Greekness of the Macedonians, having written that {{tq|not much need to be said about the Greekness of ancient Macedonia: it is undeniable}} [https://books.google.com/books?id=CZsTAQAAIAAJ]. See how that works? What you are doing is a very clear example of [[WP:CHERRY]], carefully choosing and manipulating source to push POV. [[User:Khirurg|Khirurg]] ([[User talk:Khirurg|talk]]) 05:35, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

:: Actually, I want to hear the input of users who do not engage in [[Wikipedia:Tendentious editing]], as the discussion won't be constructive as such users skew Wikipedia's Neutrality Policy. Also, please do not accuse me of engaging in cherry picking, this is not the case.

:: In regard to your Paeonian point, it was backed by the sources, here is the source: Harl, Kenneth W. (2010). Alexander the Great and the Macedonian Empire. The Teaching Company. p. 11. "In 359 B.C., Macedon was an unstable barbarian kingdom on the fringes of the Hellenic world. Macedon’s kings, members of the Argead dynasty, claimed Greek descent and ruled over a mix of different peoples including Macedonians, but many others as well, none of whom were regarded as Hellenes, or members of the Greek national race. To Greeks, the Macedonians were regarded as “barbarians.” Archaeology has revealed that the Macedonians never participated in the material culture of the Greek world since the Late Bronze Age. Greek immigrants and goods were welcomed, but Macedonians remained a distinct, speaking a language unintelligible to Greek. King Archelaus adopted Attic Greek as the court language, built roads, and established market towns, but his subjects remained in habits '''far closer''' to their Balkan neighbors Illyrians, '''Paeonians''', and Thracians."


:: Many academics do not agree with the POV of this Wikipedia article, and I have provided a number of sources which highlight this. Actually if you read Borza's book you will see that he concludes that the Ancient Macedonians were non-Hellenic, what you did there is heavy POV. I would be more than happy to provide a number of quotes from his books which support this. I didn't do so in the first place as I didn't want to solely rely on Borza's analysis. Anyway, I want users who do not engage in [[Wikipedia:Tendentious editing]] to give their input on this, I will not not further engage with you, as you are here to push a POV.

Best regards, [[User:Dikaiosyni|Dikaiosyni]] ([[User talk:Dikaiosyni|talk]]) 05:49, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

:::Insults will get you absolutely nowhere. This article is a GA, meaning it has passed peer-review by the community and considered a "good article". If it were POV, as you claim, it would not have passed the GA review. So it seems the one pushing POV is you. I will allow the quality of this article to go down. Btw, speaking of "tendentious editing", why don't you tell us what your username means? It sounds kind of...familiar. [[User:Khirurg|Khirurg]] ([[User talk:Khirurg|talk]]) 00:15, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

I agree with {{ping|Dikaiosyni}} while he is trying to neutralise this article which obviously shifts towards Greek POV. The opinions from other users would probably help regarding this issue. [[User:Iaof2017|Lorik17]] ([[User talk:Iaof2017|talk]]) 10:36, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

:If you think following me around so as to annoy me is a good idea, I have news for you. [[User:Khirurg|Khirurg]] ([[User talk:Khirurg|talk]]) 00:15, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? There is a debate as whether the Ancient Macedonians were ancient Greeks and spoke Greek? Unbelievable. Without even thinking at all, that is the first that popped in my mind. Alexander the Great, after the Battle of Granicus:

To Athens, he also sent 300 suits of Persian [[armour]] to be hung up in the [[Parthenon]] of the [[Acropolis of Athens|Acropolis]] as a [[votive offering]] or [[oblation]] to [[Athena]], and ordered this inscription to be fixed over them so as to mark the absence of the Spartans in his united Greek army: "''Alexander, son of Philip, and the Greeks, except of [[Lacedaemonians]], present this offering of the spoils taken from the barbarians who live in Asia''". («Ἀλέξανδρος Φιλίππου καὶ οἱ Ἕλληνες, πλὴν Λακεδαιμονίων, ἀπὸ τῶν βαρβάρων τῶν τὴν Ἀσίαν κατοικούντων»-"Alexandros Philippou kai hoi Hellēnes plēn Lakedaimoniōn apo tōn barbarōn tōn tēn Asian katoikountōn").<ref>[[Arrian]], ''Anabasis'', [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0530%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D16%3Asection%3D7 1.16.7], on Perseus (Greek original)</ref>

Some users are questioning the obvious. Outrageous. [[User:Abudabanas|Abudabanas]] ([[User talk:Abudabanas|talk]]) 09:52, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
{{reflist talk}}
:and [[User:Macedonian|Macedonian]] thinks on his edit summary that this is an inappropiate nationalist POV. Added the source man, just like you do. Can find tons of sources (like users who think the opposite), but I think this debate would go on for ages. To finish, just another thing that popped in my mind. Their names. Name etymology. For example, Philip is a male given name, derived from the Greek Φίλιππος (Philippos, lit. "horse-loving" or "fond of horses"[1][2]), from a compound of φίλος (phílos, "dear", "loved", "loving") and ἵππος (hippos, "horse"). This is my personal opinion and I truly do not want to provoke anyone. I am done here. Happy New Year to everyone. [[User:Abudabanas|Abudabanas]] ([[User talk:Abudabanas|talk]]) 12:00, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
::Hi Abudabanas. I didn't revert your edit and I was not referring to you, see [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AAncient_Macedonians&type=revision&diff=1001129132&oldid=1001121708 history log] for more. [[User:Macedonian|Macedonian]] ([[User talk:Macedonian|talk]]) 17:16, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
::Hi. My mistake. [[User:Abudabanas|Abudabanas]] ([[User talk:Abudabanas|talk]]) 18:47, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

It seems impossible that Slavic people appeared in North Greece at 328BC. There is not sufficient information for the Ancient Macedonian language, but the written language is Greek.The Hittites adopted the Sumerian writing system, but they used it to express their own language. Why the Macedonians didn't express their own language if it was diferrent? [[User talk:Jestmoon|Jestmoon(talk)]] 19:18, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

==View of Ancient Macedonians in other countries==
How come there is not a single mention of the view on Ancient Macedonians in North Macedonia? It would be expected that the page about one of the most important pillars of North Macedonian nationalism would have an at least mention on this. The Ancient Macedonians are also included in the nationalist movements of other nations, like the Aromanians [https://www.courrierdesbalkans.fr/qui-sont-les-aroumains-et-que-recherchent-ils-par-leur-propagande-les-hellenes-valaques-et-fara-armaneasca]. Including short mentions about this in the article won't do any harm. [[User:Super Dromaeosaurus|<span style="color:#0099FF;">Super</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Super Dromaeosaurus|<span style="color:#800080;">Ψ</span>]] [[User talk:Super Dromaeosaurus|<span style="color:#E60026;">Dro</span>]] 12:13, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
:That info belongs in [[Macedonian nationalism]], not here. [[User:Khirurg|Khirurg]] ([[User talk:Khirurg|talk]]) 15:00, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
::I don't see why it couldn't be mentioned here. [[User:Super Dromaeosaurus|<span style="color:#0099FF;">Super</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Super Dromaeosaurus|<span style="color:#800080;">Ψ</span>]] [[User talk:Super Dromaeosaurus|<span style="color:#E60026;">Dro</span>]] 15:28, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
:::Perhaps a "Historic negationism" or "In North Macedonian and Aromanian historiography" section could be made at the very bottom of this page? - [[User:LouisAragon|LouisAragon]] ([[User talk:LouisAragon|talk]]) 15:39, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
::::Albanian nationalism is also deeply implicated in that issue. [[User:Jingiby|Jingiby]] ([[User talk:Jingiby|talk]]) 15:45, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
:::::Aromanian historiography is very small, we won't be able to get views of many authors and I am not sure if academic articles talking too extensively about Aromanian historiography exist. "Historic negationism" could be deemed as not neutral by nationals of North Macedonia or others. I don't know what could be the exact title of this section, do we have other similar examples to look up to?
:::::By the way, if I was asked, I'd say the Ancient Macedonians were Greek or at least related to them. I don't have any hidden intentions with my suggestion, I only believe information about this should be added. Saying just in case. [[User:Super Dromaeosaurus|<span style="color:#0099FF;">Super</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Super Dromaeosaurus|<span style="color:#800080;">Ψ</span>]] [[User talk:Super Dromaeosaurus|<span style="color:#E60026;">Dro</span>]] 15:52, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
::::::Modern-day propaganda politics has no place here in an article supposedly about an ancient people. Any historic negationism/revisionism may be covered in the article created specifically about this political concept: [[Macedonian nationalism]]. Otherwise, similar sections may be created anywhere, including geographic articles ([[Macedonia (Greece)]]), or political entities ([[Macedon (ancient kingdom)]]) or even the articles about individuals ([[Alexander the Great]]). Sorry but no. The last thing Wikipedia needs is non-political articles getting sections about nationalist propaganda not supported by anyone and which the world's scholars are finding laughable except perhaps a small minority of far-right people who take such matters seriously. If such sections have to be added, they may be added into the articles of nationalist politicians/diaspora figures from North Macedonia who may be espousing/supporting such propaganda views. --- <span style="text-shadow:#CCC 0.1em 0.3em 0.3em; font-family: Trebuchet MS">[[User:SilentResident|❖ ''SilentResident'' ❖]] <sup>([[User talk:SilentResident|talk &#9993;]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/SilentResident|contribs &#9998;]])</sup></span> 16:02, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
:::::::{{tq|I don't see why it couldn't be included here}} is not an argument. We are not going to clutter this article with Balkan nationalist junk. Forget it. [[User:Khirurg|Khirurg]] ([[User talk:Khirurg|talk]]) 16:09, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
::::::::There are many things that can improve an article to the point of the article getting even a GA status, but political propaganda isn't one of them. For example, Karakachanov's views that North Macedonia belongs to Bulgaria, have no place on the article about North Macedonia. Likewise, Erdogan's claim that 300 years ago, Ottoman astronauts reached the Moon,[https://worldnewsdailyreport.com/ottomans-were-the-first-to-reach-the-moon-says-turkish-president/] has no place on the article about the Moon. Political propaganda is the ''last'' thing that may constitute a useful improvement for any article. --- <span style="text-shadow:#CCC 0.1em 0.3em 0.3em; font-family: Trebuchet MS">[[User:SilentResident|❖ ''SilentResident'' ❖]] <sup>([[User talk:SilentResident|talk &#9993;]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/SilentResident|contribs &#9998;]])</sup></span> 16:17, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::The problem is, historic bullsh*t negationism has seeped into modern-day politics, museums and even academic works (due to spending of $$). Whether we all like it or not. Proper [[WP:RS]] authors have shed streams of ink describing these futile attempts, which, IMO, means it is, to a good degree [[WP:DUE]] in terms of deserving mention on Wikipedia. From an academic and WP guideline point of view; what can possibly be better than battling historic negationism by mentioning these futile, laughable attempts serving to feeds various IRL complexes and political ambitions? Accompanied by scholarly and/or academic sources. If only, it serves to accompany the reader to know what is going on behind the scenes, and that when he/she is visiting these nations, or reading sources published in such nations, that they know what to "expect". - [[User:LouisAragon|LouisAragon]] ([[User talk:LouisAragon|talk]]) 16:40, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::* "'' "Historic negationism" could be deemed as not neutral by nationals of North Macedonia or others."''
:::::::::Huh?
:::::::::- [[User:LouisAragon|LouisAragon]] ([[User talk:LouisAragon|talk]]) 16:40, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
::::::::::''Edit'': I just noticed there's already a North Macedonia section at [[Historical_negationism#North_Macedonia]], and even separate articles such as [[Historiography in North Macedonia]] and [[Antiquization]]. That's a good thing. - [[User:LouisAragon|LouisAragon]] ([[User talk:LouisAragon|talk]]) 16:41, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::::Yes, there is a North Macedonia section in the Historical negationism, ''but'' there is no Historical negationism section in North Macedonia, for obvious reasons. If you ever try to add a historical negationism section in North Macedonia, you will be reverted because the article is about a country, not about what fringe ideas the far-right politicians living there may espouse. --- <span style="text-shadow:#CCC 0.1em 0.3em 0.3em; font-family: Trebuchet MS">[[User:SilentResident|❖ ''SilentResident'' ❖]] <sup>([[User talk:SilentResident|talk &#9993;]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/SilentResident|contribs &#9998;]])</sup></span> 16:48, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
::::::::::::Exactly, including this stuff here would [[WP:CFORK|content forking]]. [[User:Khirurg|Khirurg]] ([[User talk:Khirurg|talk]]) 17:31, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
{{outdent}}
I'm not convinced it's a good idea to pull anything about modern-day ideologies in here. This article should be about what we know about the real ancient Macedonians, not what their roles for modern nationalisms is. The main reason is that if we started doing that, we'd see no end of it – editors here would be entirely inable to write neutrally about such issues, so we'd get a nightmare of POV-warring, coatrack arguments, refutations, counter-refutations, "he-said, she said", and the whole thing growing uncontrollably. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 17:42, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
:Per excellent points by editors Khirurg and Future Perfect at Sunrise. --- <span style="text-shadow:#CCC 0.1em 0.3em 0.3em; font-family: Trebuchet MS">[[User:SilentResident|❖ ''SilentResident'' ❖]] <sup>([[User talk:SilentResident|talk &#9993;]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/SilentResident|contribs &#9998;]])</sup></span> 17:47, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

== Herodotus ==

I would like this specification to be added in regards to the verse 7.130.3 of Herodotus histories in the section about the identity of ancient Macedonians.
" Nevertheless, in regards to the previous statement it should be noted that the ancient Greek used here is "ἔδοσαν ἑωυτοὺς βασιλέι" which is best translated as "gave themselves to the king" (histories 7.30.3). In verses following this statement (histories 7.32.1-2) the act of giving yourself to the enemy by your own will seems to be presented as treason: "Among those who paid that tribute were the Thessalians, Dolopes, Enienes, Perrhaebians, Locrians, Magnesians, Melians, Achaeans of Phthia, Thebans, and all the Boeotians except the men of Thespiae and Plataea.[2] Against all of these the Greeks who declared war with the foreigner entered into a sworn agreement, which was this: that if they should be victorious, they would dedicate to the god of Delphi the possessions of all Greeks who had of free will surrendered themselves to the Persians. Such was the agreement sworn by the Greeks.", the word "δοκέω" (give) is also used in these verses "ὅσοι τῷ Πέρσῃ ἔδοσαν σφέας αὐτοὺς Ἕλληνες ἐόντες μὴ ἀναγκασθέντες" ("those Greeks who gave themselves to the Persian without being forced to")."
Anyone with knowledge of ancient Greek can understand make their comments on that specification so I would like them to make their suggestions on its addition instead of people who can not. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Aeolic order|Aeolic order]] ([[User talk:Aeolic order#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Aeolic order|contribs]]) 09:59, 19 December 2021 (UTC)</span> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

: First, please read [[WP:NOR]]. We don't insert our own arguments and analyses into articles. As long as you don't have a reference to a reputable historian actually making this argument, this will stay out.
: Second, the whole point is irrelevant. Nothing in the paragraph in question hinges on the implications of the verb used for "submitted", so it's quite unclear what you're even arguing about. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 10:41, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Also in regards to Herodotus' position on the Greekness of the Macedonians I would like this verse to be considered: "1 αὗται μὲν ὦν σφι πρόσχημα ἦσαν τοῦ στόλου· ἀτὰρ ἐν νόῳ ἔχοντες ὅσας ἂν πλείστας δύνωνται καταστρέφεσθαι τῶν Ἑλληνίδων πολίων, τοῦτο μὲν δὴ τῇσι νηυσὶ Θασίους οὐδὲ χεῖρας ἀνταειραμένους κατεστρέψαντο, τοῦτο δὲ τῷ πεζῷ Μακεδόνας πρὸς τοῖσι ὑπάρχουσι δούλους προσεκτήσαντο· τὰ γὰρ ἐντὸς Μακεδόνων ἔθνεα πάντα σφι ἦν ἤδη ὑποχείρια γεγονότα." Here Herodotus seems to give examples of how the Persians went about destroying Greek cities and he says that on the one hand, with the navy, they destroyed the thasians and on the other, with the infantry, they enslaved the Macedonians. [[User:Aeolic order|Aeolic order]] ([[User talk:Aeolic order|talk]]) 10:44, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Verse 6.44.1 [[User:Aeolic order|Aeolic order]] ([[User talk:Aeolic order|talk]]) 10:45, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

This is by Herodotus, the only problem is that you cannot understand what is being said, that is why I am asking someone who knows ancient Greek to comment on this addition [[User:Aeolic order|Aeolic order]] ([[User talk:Aeolic order|talk]]) 10:52, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

It does hinge on the implications on the verb used, and that verb is "δοκέω". If you read the edit it seems like the Thessalians were the first to commit an act of treason. That is quite different from being subjugated to the foreign king because it is done through your own choice. The whole claim about the implications of this verse is that if the Thessalians were the first Greekd to succumb to the invader then the preceding Macedonians were not Greeks [[User:Aeolic order|Aeolic order]] ([[User talk:Aeolic order|talk]]) 10:57, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

: Μην κρίνεις εξ ιδίων τα αλλότρια, παιδί μου. But anyway, you've still not grasped the basic point here. This isn't a debating club. Provide sources from the secondary literature. It's not our job to "consider" stuff just because you would like us to. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 11:06, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

This is a talk page and talk pages have to do with discussion. I am providing sources from the literature itself. Of course I am gonna Judge from the "same" the "others" because the "others" are mingling with the "same". I agree that it is not your job to "consider" because you cannot "consider" right now
[[User:Aeolic order|Aeolic order]] ([[User talk:Aeolic order|talk]]) 11:14, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Also regarding original research the rules have this to say
:=== Translations and transcriptions ===
{{Policy shortcut|WP:TRANSCRIPTION}}
{{See also|WP:Translation}}


There is a section stating that there is ambiguity in historical texts regarding Macedonians being Greeks semi Greeks or 'barbarians'.It holds no scientific truth as the Macedonians themselves referred to non-Greeks as 'barbarians'.The sentence also lacks any stated source. Moreover there is currently no debate among the majority of modern historians regarding the ethnicity of Macedonians. Again in this sentence there is no source stated. In my opinion the following sentences:"Authors, [[List of Greek historiographers|historians]], and statesmen of the ancient world often expressed ambiguous if not conflicting ideas about the [[ethnic identity]] of the Macedonians as either [[Greeks]], semi-Greeks, or even [[Barbarian|barbarians]]. This has led to some debate among modern academics about the precise ethnic identity of the Macedonians, who nevertheless embraced many aspects" should be removed and replaced with a sentence starting with : " the Macedonians, who embraced many aspects of contemporaneous [[Culture of Greece|Greek culture]] such as". [[User:Knoflook101|Knoflook101]] ([[User talk:Knoflook101|talk]]) 20:57, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
Faithfully translating sourced material into English, or transcribing spoken words from audio or video sources, is not considered original research. For information on how to handle sources that require translation, see {{section link|WP:Verifiability#Non-English sources}}. [[User:Aeolic order|Aeolic order]] ([[User talk:Aeolic order|talk]]) 13:12, 19 December 2021 (UTC)


:I disagree. Ancient Macedonians had their own ethnocentrism whereby they could look upon non-Macedonians (including Greeks) as "barbarians." Also, you are conflating the Greek author/historian (who references "barbarians") with the ancient Macedonians themselves. This is referred to as the ''interpretatio graeca,'' which even some like Ian Worthington, who believes in the "Greekness" of the ancient Macedonians, has noted. Currently no debate among modern historians? I highly disagree. Ian Worthington himself has written, in the preface to A Companion to Ancient Macedonia (Blackwell Publishing, 2011), that "there is no consensus" concerning the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians. [[User:Historybuff4life4health|Historybuff4life4health]] ([[User talk:Historybuff4life4health|talk]]) 20:04, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
And regarding citations of non-English sources this is stated: ====Citing====
Citations to non-English reliable sources are allowed on the [[English Wikipedia]]. However, because this project is in English, English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones when they're available and of equal quality and relevance. As with sources in English, if a dispute arises involving a citation to a non-English source, editors may request a quotation of relevant portions of the original source be provided, either in text, in a footnote, or on the article talk page.<ref name=Courtesy/> (See [[Template:Request quotation]].)


== Opening sentence ==
I have provided rekevant portions of the original source [[User:Aeolic order|Aeolic order]] ([[User talk:Aeolic order|talk]]) 13:16, 19 December 2021 (UTC)


I've restored the longstanding consensus version of the lead - given the endlessly contentious nature of the Greekness of the Macedonians changes to this should be discussed and agreed first. [[User:Golikom|Golikom]] ([[User talk:Golikom|talk]]) 09:27, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
Relevant [[User:Aeolic order|Aeolic order]] ([[User talk:Aeolic order|talk]]) 13:17, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
:Sorry for my late response. You did well, [[User:Golikom|Golikom]], and thank you for your vigilance. New users should bear in mind that no changes may be made without WP:CONSENSUS, and that this article falls under [[WP:ARBMAC]]. Good day. --- <span style="text-shadow:#CCC 0.1em 0.3em 0.3em; font-family: Trebuchet MS">[[User:SilentResident|❖ ''SilentResident'' ❖]] <sup>([[User talk:SilentResident|talk &#9993;]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/SilentResident|contribs &#9998;]])</sup></span> 19:09, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
:@[[User:Golikom|Golikom]] There is no debate among historians on the Greekness of the ancient Macedonians. Homer and Hesiod agreed that the Macedonians were Greeks. So what you are doing is completely ruining the article. [[User:Alexandros17|Alexandros17]] ([[User talk:Alexandros17|talk]]) 23:54, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
::No, what I'm doing is preserving the long established opening of the article. If you want to change the consensus present your reasons with evidence and explain the necessity of the changes. If the editors agree on the new changes then as new consensus wil form, but you cannot unilaterally change the opening and ignore [[WP:BRD]]. [[User:Golikom|Golikom]] ([[User talk:Golikom|talk]]) 03:16, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
::Alexandros17, I believe there is no particular point for you to continue making the same edit every few weeks, especially not in this [[WP:BOLD]] manner. The current and stable version of the article already confirms what you are saying in the very second sentence of the lead. Personally, I would kindly advice you to avoid engaging in repetitive editing, until you become a little more familiar with wikipedia rules and with the relevant scholarship. [[User:Piccco|Piccco]] ([[User talk:Piccco|talk]]) 13:18, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 13:18, 12 November 2024

Good articleAncient Macedonians has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Good topic starAncient Macedonians is part of the Macedonia (ancient kingdom) series, a good topic. This is identified as among the best series of articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do so.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
May 28, 2017Good article nomineeListed
October 25, 2017Good topic candidatePromoted
Current status: Good article

A matter of accuracy

[edit]

I know there are frequent inaccuracies here and the effect of centuries of propaganda is inevitable but depite that it is reasonably sound. I know there was no nation of ancient Greece. What there was was an ancient-Greek-speaking network of poleis streching all across the Mediterranean. It was vastly larger than modern Greece. So, it wasn't the same at all. Different species of animal. Not a nation. The nation of course is relatively recent. The U. of Copenhagen did a 10-year flag study of the polis, which need to be brought in. So, I'm saying the ideology here is somewhat behind the study. Needs to be brought up to date. Second, overbriefness has resulted in certain inaccuracies. This great plain of lower Macedonia the article begins with didn't exist. There was no plain there. It was the Thermaic Gulf plus wetlands. The states were all squeezed between it and the mountains. I'm working on this under Emathia. And finally, the article does not make clear that "Macedonian" meant different thing at different times. The original Macedonians were around Mt Olympus. So, there is more work here if anyone dares to risk it. Oh, one thing more. Beekes is a good linguist I am sure but he tends to be something of a wild man in some of his etymologies, as when he discovers the source of all the Etruscans in the Mediterranean hiding in a section of Anatolia about the size of a county. "The slim men" indeed. Why don't we name them after their hair-do? Highlanders is much more likely.Botteville (talk) 19:23, 13 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No debate among modern historians

[edit]

There is a section stating that there is ambiguity in historical texts regarding Macedonians being Greeks semi Greeks or 'barbarians'.It holds no scientific truth as the Macedonians themselves referred to non-Greeks as 'barbarians'.The sentence also lacks any stated source. Moreover there is currently no debate among the majority of modern historians regarding the ethnicity of Macedonians. Again in this sentence there is no source stated. In my opinion the following sentences:"Authors, historians, and statesmen of the ancient world often expressed ambiguous if not conflicting ideas about the ethnic identity of the Macedonians as either Greeks, semi-Greeks, or even barbarians. This has led to some debate among modern academics about the precise ethnic identity of the Macedonians, who nevertheless embraced many aspects" should be removed and replaced with a sentence starting with : " the Macedonians, who embraced many aspects of contemporaneous Greek culture such as". Knoflook101 (talk) 20:57, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. Ancient Macedonians had their own ethnocentrism whereby they could look upon non-Macedonians (including Greeks) as "barbarians." Also, you are conflating the Greek author/historian (who references "barbarians") with the ancient Macedonians themselves. This is referred to as the interpretatio graeca, which even some like Ian Worthington, who believes in the "Greekness" of the ancient Macedonians, has noted. Currently no debate among modern historians? I highly disagree. Ian Worthington himself has written, in the preface to A Companion to Ancient Macedonia (Blackwell Publishing, 2011), that "there is no consensus" concerning the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians. Historybuff4life4health (talk) 20:04, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Opening sentence

[edit]

I've restored the longstanding consensus version of the lead - given the endlessly contentious nature of the Greekness of the Macedonians changes to this should be discussed and agreed first. Golikom (talk) 09:27, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for my late response. You did well, Golikom, and thank you for your vigilance. New users should bear in mind that no changes may be made without WP:CONSENSUS, and that this article falls under WP:ARBMAC. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 19:09, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Golikom There is no debate among historians on the Greekness of the ancient Macedonians. Homer and Hesiod agreed that the Macedonians were Greeks. So what you are doing is completely ruining the article. Alexandros17 (talk) 23:54, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, what I'm doing is preserving the long established opening of the article. If you want to change the consensus present your reasons with evidence and explain the necessity of the changes. If the editors agree on the new changes then as new consensus wil form, but you cannot unilaterally change the opening and ignore WP:BRD. Golikom (talk) 03:16, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Alexandros17, I believe there is no particular point for you to continue making the same edit every few weeks, especially not in this WP:BOLD manner. The current and stable version of the article already confirms what you are saying in the very second sentence of the lead. Personally, I would kindly advice you to avoid engaging in repetitive editing, until you become a little more familiar with wikipedia rules and with the relevant scholarship. Piccco (talk) 13:18, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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