Jump to content

Talk:Chernobyl disaster: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Content deleted Content added
m Archiving 3 discussion(s) to Talk:Chernobyl disaster/Archive 13) (bot
Semi-protected edit request on 12 November 2024: Marking edit request as answered
 
(21 intermediate revisions by 16 users not shown)
Line 95: Line 95:
[[User:Dougsim|Dougsim]]
[[User:Dougsim|Dougsim]]


== Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2024 ==
== There is currently no source for the assertion that the room was calm when AZ-5 was pressed or that the use of AZ-5 was pre-planned, other than Dyatlov's book. ==


{{edit semi-protected|Chernobyl disaster|answered=yes}}
I [made a change https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Chernobyl_disaster&diff=prev&oldid=1219563042] to clarify that the current source - Dyatlov's book - is only an assertion from him about the use of AZ-5. My edit was reverted (actually, it wasn't merely reverted, but the language strengthened despite no new sources added).
Replace "cost an estimated 18 billion roubles—roughly US$68 billion in 2019" In the first paragraph with "with cost an estimated 18 billion roubles—roughly US$200 million in 2024"
(yeah money value has gone down) [[User:Fire1324|Fire1324]] ([[User talk:Fire1324|talk]]) 23:33, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
:The article is comparing 1986 Soviet rubles to USD, not 2024 Russian rubles to USD.[[User:Sredmash|Sredmash]] ([[User talk:Sredmash|talk]]) 23:58, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
::I feel like we shouldn't be putting in numbers we keep having to update every year due to inflation. It would be better to just list the cost in both roubles and dollars at some fixed point and just specify that point.
::That said - I can't find the source of the numbers we DO have. Where are these numbers coming from? [[User:PianoDan|PianoDan]] ([[User talk:PianoDan|talk]]) 19:48, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> per above. The 1986 exchange rate seems like it's the one to use unless reliable sources contradict me. [[User:McYeee|McYeee]] ([[User talk:McYeee|talk]]) 07:03, 14 August 2024 (UTC)


== Getting this to a Good Article state ==
If we are only going to use Dyatlov's book, that's fine, but the article needs to reflect that. If there are other sources for these claims, then they need to be added.[[User:RadicalHarmony|RadicalHarmony]] ([[User talk:RadicalHarmony|talk]]) 01:33, 19 April 2024 (UTC)


After few years, I have come back to the article and made a variety of significant edits, mainly simplifying the overall layout. My goal would be to get this article to a state where it can be nominated to a Good Article and a Featured Article - seems worthwhile given the importance of the event as well as this article being in the Top 100 visited articles.
OK, little update: I've found this, which seems like a viable secondary source, cites many germane primary sources, and seems to more-or-less support the current language in the article: https://chernobylcritical.blogspot.com/p/part-5-after-explosion.html


I'm not sure how much time I can invest into this of course, but seeing a variety of activity from others recently inspired me and I thought I'd start a collaborative checklist below. Feel free to edit it further, or cross out things that are done!
So perhaps the change I attempted to make it not needed afterall. [[User:RadicalHarmony|RadicalHarmony]] ([[User talk:RadicalHarmony|talk]]) 02:12, 19 April 2024 (UTC)


* Update the Background with key information about RBMK and the ChNPP.
:It may be worthwhile to know that the author of chernobylcritical.blogspot.com is [[User:Sredmash|Sredmash]] who will probably be able to address your concerns in this specific matter. [[User:Reconrabbit|<span style="color:#6BAD2D">Recon</span>]][[User talk:Reconrabbit|<span style="color:#2F3833">rabbit</span>]] 14:33, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
* Update the Impact section with information about impact on Soviet Union (some of it may be moved from the Socio-economic impact section?)
* Reconcile the Long-term effects section with the [[Effects of the Chernobyl disaster]] article. There is significant overlap but also differences, and I believe the section would benefit from trimming down details.
** Pet peeve: The table in Release and spread of radioactive materials; moreover it omits many countries, the primary source of the secondary source cited has more lines, but I think a map would be better. The popular one seems copyrighted and I'm not sure if it'd fall under a non-free use exception, I tried to ask the EC for permission... [[User:Pasky|Pasky]] ([[User talk:Pasky|talk]]) 17:10, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
* Revisit each remaining section with further-information or main-article link and make sure that each such section only provides key summary in the main article and details are moved to the specialized article.
[[User:Pasky|Pasky]] ([[User talk:Pasky|talk]]) 17:08, 8 September 2024 (UTC)


== Grammar ==
::It wasn't entirely clear in the original wording what was meant by the shutdown being planned in advance. The fact that shutdown was planned for that shift in particular is stated in so many sources that I don't even remember which one to cite; you would need to pick a few at random and see if you get lucky.


The first sentence of the sub-section "Fuel-containing materials" has a grammatical error. The first sentence reads "About 95% of the fuel in reactor No. 4 at the time of the accident." This is obviously not a complete sentence. It is unclear to me what the original literary intent of this clause was. This half-sentence could be removed without impeding the reader's understanding of the following text. [[User:CALPHone|CALPHone]] ([[User talk:CALPHone|talk]]) 19:33, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
::More unclear is whether the shift intended to shut down right at 1:23:04 when rundown began. For this we primarily have Dyatlov's assertion. In an 'original research' kind of way, it has often been pointed out that the test program contains no step for blocking the two-turbine disconnection trip, so following the instructions to the letter would indeed have automatically scrammed the reactor at 1:23:04. But in fact we can add a separate reputable source for Akimov stating that they planned to shut down as rundown began: https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/document/20285-national-security-archive-doc-01-cc-cpsu (Control-F for "inform" and you should jump right to the relevant passage.)


== Semi-protected edit request on 12 November 2024 ==
::Eyewitnesses reporting a calm atmosphere preceding the scram include Metlenko, Gazin and others. I agree that we need some citations here. The quotes mostly come from Nikolai Karpan's book, Revenge of the Peaceful Atom. Citing them would be far preferable to using my blog as a source, but I would need to take some time to track down page references, etc.[[User:Sredmash|Sredmash]] ([[User talk:Sredmash|talk]]) 14:42, 19 April 2024 (UTC)


{{edit semi-protected|Chernobyl disaster|answered=yes}}
== Crisis management - Evacuation: time discrepancy ==
Under the "In popular culture" section, it says THQ produced STALKER, this is not true GSC Gameworld, a Ukrainian video games developer, produced it. [[User:Wikipedianikolas|Wikipedianikolas]] ([[User talk:Wikipedianikolas|talk]]) 16:31, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

:{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> The article doesn't say THQ produced the game, it says it released it, which according to the game's article would appear to be true. With that said, I'm of the opinion that a video game's developer is usually far more responsible for it than its publisher, so I added a few words that include GSC's role. [[User:DrOrinScrivello|DrOrinScrivello]] ([[User talk:DrOrinScrivello|talk]]) 20:07, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
The 4th paragraph of section "Crisis management", subsection "Evacuation" contains this sentence:
: In the early daylight hours of 27 April, approximately 36 hours after the initial blast (...)
The initial blast occurred at 01:23 AM, therefore 36 hours after the blast would be 01:23 PM, which is certainly not an early daylight hour. [[Special:Contributions/178.143.44.172|178.143.44.172]] ([[User talk:178.143.44.172|talk]]) 19:30, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
::Good point. That sentence is conflating the order to evacuate with the evacuation itself.02:44, 24 April 2024 (UTC) <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Sredmash|Sredmash]] ([[User talk:Sredmash#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sredmash|contribs]]) </small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Coolant Flow paradox needs further discussion. ==

In the last paragraph of "Background", just before we enter the "Accident", the following statement is made: "'''excessively high coolant flow rates through the core meant that the coolant was entering the reactor very close to the boiling point.'''" Boiling coolant leads to steam bubbles which creates a non-liquid neutron absorbing void in the reactor core. This is clear in the discussion. However, the statement referenced appears to say that high coolant flow leads to high coolant temperatures - which is counterintuitive. In theory, if you want to cool something down, you increase the coolant flow. Perhaps there is a link to high coolant flow necessitating high coolant flow through the heat exchange system, and hence quickly moving coolant does not get a chance to cool before it reenters the reactor. (Note "perhaps", it's been a long time since I took a reactor design course.) "Bottom line", as Michael Weston would say, is this critical state of high coolant flow leading to boiling point coolant needs to be explained for it in some ways is the cause of the entire accident. [[User:QuixoteReborn|QuixoteReborn]] ([[User talk:QuixoteReborn|talk]]) 09:12, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
:I added a phrase or too.[[User:Sredmash|Sredmash]] ([[User talk:Sredmash|talk]]) 13:02, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 20:07, 12 November 2024

Former featured article candidateChernobyl disaster is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination was archived. For older candidates, please check the archive.
On this day... Article milestones
DateProcessResult
March 8, 2006Good article nomineeListed
May 7, 2006Good article reassessmentDelisted
January 3, 2009Featured article candidateNot promoted
February 14, 2013Good article nomineeNot listed
On this day... Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on April 26, 2004, April 26, 2005, April 26, 2006, April 26, 2007, April 26, 2009, April 26, 2012, April 26, 2013, and April 26, 2016.
Current status: Former featured article candidate


Grammar

[edit]

The fist sentence should read: "At the Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant in the city of Pripyat, located in the then Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic of the Soviet Union (USSR)" instead of: "at the Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant in the city of Pripyat, then located in the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic of the Soviet Union (USSR)". It did not physically move.

The section titled "Social Economic Effects" should be renamed to "socioeconomic effects" to reflect proper terminology.

minor but this is the English language page "Numerous structural and construction quality issues, as well as deviations from the original plant design, had been known to KGB since at least 1973 and passed on to the Central Committee, which take no action and classified the information." should be "been known to the KGB... which took no action"

Containing fire

[edit]

The timeline says all fires were contained at 6:35 - this should probably mention "fires around the power plant": The core continued to burn days after, but there is no description what measures really lead to containing the fire inside the reactor. It just says "It is now known that virtually none of the neutron absorbers reached the core." It is not clear what really stopped the fire.

decay heat was the "fire" and it "stopped" being "red hot" like decay heat always does. With time.

Grammar edit request

[edit]

There's a rather extended high-comma-count "sentence" with what looks to be a misspelling.

The expected highest body activity was in the first few years, were the unabated ingestion of local food, primarily milk consumption, resulted in the transfer of activity from soil to body, after the dissolution of the USSR, the now reduced scale initiative to monitor the human body activity in these regions of Ukraine, recorded a small and gradual half-decadal-long rise, in internal committed dose, before returning to the previous trend of observing ever lower body counts each year.

minimal-change improvement:

The expected highest body activity was in the first few years, where the unabated ingestion of local food (primarily milk) resulted in the transfer of activity from soil to body. After the dissolution of the USSR, the now reduced scale initiative to monitor the human body activity in these regions of Ukraine recorded a small and gradual half-decadal-long rise in internal committed dose before returning to the previous trend of observing ever lower body counts each year.

length of lead

[edit]

This has come up before, see..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chernobyl_disaster/Archive_13#Lead_too_long

Dougsim

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2024

[edit]

Replace "cost an estimated 18 billion roubles—roughly US$68 billion in 2019" In the first paragraph with "with cost an estimated 18 billion roubles—roughly US$200 million in 2024" (yeah money value has gone down) Fire1324 (talk) 23:33, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article is comparing 1986 Soviet rubles to USD, not 2024 Russian rubles to USD.Sredmash (talk) 23:58, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I feel like we shouldn't be putting in numbers we keep having to update every year due to inflation. It would be better to just list the cost in both roubles and dollars at some fixed point and just specify that point.
That said - I can't find the source of the numbers we DO have. Where are these numbers coming from? PianoDan (talk) 19:48, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done: per above. The 1986 exchange rate seems like it's the one to use unless reliable sources contradict me. McYeee (talk) 07:03, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Getting this to a Good Article state

[edit]

After few years, I have come back to the article and made a variety of significant edits, mainly simplifying the overall layout. My goal would be to get this article to a state where it can be nominated to a Good Article and a Featured Article - seems worthwhile given the importance of the event as well as this article being in the Top 100 visited articles.

I'm not sure how much time I can invest into this of course, but seeing a variety of activity from others recently inspired me and I thought I'd start a collaborative checklist below. Feel free to edit it further, or cross out things that are done!

  • Update the Background with key information about RBMK and the ChNPP.
  • Update the Impact section with information about impact on Soviet Union (some of it may be moved from the Socio-economic impact section?)
  • Reconcile the Long-term effects section with the Effects of the Chernobyl disaster article. There is significant overlap but also differences, and I believe the section would benefit from trimming down details.
    • Pet peeve: The table in Release and spread of radioactive materials; moreover it omits many countries, the primary source of the secondary source cited has more lines, but I think a map would be better. The popular one seems copyrighted and I'm not sure if it'd fall under a non-free use exception, I tried to ask the EC for permission... Pasky (talk) 17:10, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Revisit each remaining section with further-information or main-article link and make sure that each such section only provides key summary in the main article and details are moved to the specialized article.

Pasky (talk) 17:08, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Grammar

[edit]

The first sentence of the sub-section "Fuel-containing materials" has a grammatical error. The first sentence reads "About 95% of the fuel in reactor No. 4 at the time of the accident." This is obviously not a complete sentence. It is unclear to me what the original literary intent of this clause was. This half-sentence could be removed without impeding the reader's understanding of the following text. CALPHone (talk) 19:33, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 12 November 2024

[edit]

Under the "In popular culture" section, it says THQ produced STALKER, this is not true GSC Gameworld, a Ukrainian video games developer, produced it. Wikipedianikolas (talk) 16:31, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done The article doesn't say THQ produced the game, it says it released it, which according to the game's article would appear to be true. With that said, I'm of the opinion that a video game's developer is usually far more responsible for it than its publisher, so I added a few words that include GSC's role. DrOrinScrivello (talk) 20:07, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]