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Largest Theropod Sizes Inaccurate

On the theropod article, the sizes are wrong. Tyrannosaurus would actually have been the heaviest theropod, since it’s 9 tonnes, and Spino is 7.5. The Spino also wasn’t 18 meters long but 16. Giga wasn’t 14.8 meters but around 13 instead. Mikail2009 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 11:08, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

They are not wrong, we are giving a range of estimates that have been produced instead of sticking to one alternative. Lythronaxargestes (talk | contribs) 17:03, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just chiming in, but I presume the commonly thrown around 7 or 7.5 tonne figure is from the new Ibrahim discoveries. Nizar Ibrahim has actually stated in a Reddit Q&A that he now believes that the Spinosaurus is something more like 10-12 tonnes based on a newer model that will probably be published in the future (can't be used until then). Although he did say that he thinks theropods in general are underestimated. I guess we'll have to wait for concrete evidence. Spinosaurus75 (Dinosaur Fan) (talk) 15:10, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Rules for Sources

I've been away from Wikipedia for a while and it looks like the controversial heavy mass estimates for therapods have been removed. May I ask what are the current standards for deciding what sources are reliable to be used in the page? Spinosaurus75 (Dinosaur Fan) (talk) 15:21, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The one who removed the data from this page is absolutely IDIOT because for large dinosaurs dimension estimates varies a lot and there is no way to determine for sure if they were accurate. As long as dimensions attributed to dinosaurs reflected the estimation made by scientists it was legit to appear on this page and to reclaim so called inaccuracies of this page is completeley STUPID. A previoussly very useful wikipedia page became just a stump. 85.120.166.69 (talk) 15:19, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Other sizes

This article presents itself as being about dinosaur size generally, but then is mostly about big sauropods. What was the smallest sauropodomorph? What was the average size for sauropods and therapods? What about sub-types like ceratopsians and stegosaurs? Furius (talk) 09:15, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article has been severely cut down since its inception due to persistent issues with the use of some sources. It obviously needs a major overhaul, but nobody has taken on this task, presumably because it would require a huge amount of work and a lot of people would have differing opinions about it. If that's a task you're interested in, I suggest you post on WP:PALEOAW so that we can get a team of editors on it. If not, I can't imagine it will change soon. It's on my long-term to-do list but most of my attention is on other projects at the moment. A Cynical Idealist (talk) 05:57, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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+== Largest Theropod Sizes Inaccurate ==
+On the theropod article, the sizes are wrong. Tyrannosaurus would actually have been the heaviest theropod, since it’s 9 tonnes, and Spino is 7.5. The Spino also wasn’t 18 meters long but 16. Giga wasn’t 14.8 meters but around 13 instead. [[User:Mikail2009|Mikail2009]] ([[User talk:Mikail2009|talk]])  <!--Template:Undated--><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment added 11:08, 19 December 2021 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
-== A. Giganteous ==
+:They are not wrong, we are giving a range of estimates that have been produced instead of sticking to one alternative. ''[[User:Lythronaxargestes|Lythronaxargestes]]'' ([[User talk:Lythronaxargestes#top|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Lythronaxargestes|contribs]]) 17:03, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
+::Just chiming in, but I presume the commonly thrown around 7 or 7.5 tonne figure is from the new Ibrahim discoveries. Nizar Ibrahim has actually stated in a Reddit Q&A that he now believes that the Spinosaurus is something more like 10-12 tonnes based on a newer model that will probably be published in the future (can't be used until then). Although he did say that he thinks theropods in general are underestimated. I guess we'll have to wait for concrete evidence. [[User:Spinosaurus75 (Dinosaur Fan)|Spinosaurus75 (Dinosaur Fan)]] ([[User talk:Spinosaurus75 (Dinosaur Fan)|talk]]) 15:10, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
-Antarctosaurus Giganteous is said to be between 58 & 63 tonnes<ref>Holtz, Thomas R. "Supplementary Information to Dinosaurs: The Most Complete, Up-to-Date Encyclopedia for Dinosaur Lovers of All Ages".</ref>. Even though the upper estimate is certainly smaller than the upper estimate of other suaropodmorphs, the lower estimate is significantly larger than a few large sauropodmorphs on the list. Wouldn't it be fairer and safer to rank size through lower estimate(s)?[[User:PNSMurthy|PNSMurthy ]] ([[User talk:PNSMurthy|talk]]) 01:05, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
-:Paul (2019)[http://www.gspauldino.com/Titanomass.pdf] estimated "Antarctosaurus" ''giganteus'' to be 45-55 t heavy. Also, doesn't Holtz use "elephants" to describe mass instead of providing the actual estimate? [[User:Kiwi Rex|Kiwi Rex]] ([[User talk:Kiwi Rex|talk]]) 12:33, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
-::True, but it's still an estimate {{ping|Kiwi Rex}}.[[User:PNSMurthy|PNSMurthy ]] ([[User talk:PNSMurthy|talk]]) 00:53, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
-:::It's a comparison, not an estimate. It's supposed to give an idea of how big it is compared to a modern animal, but we can't know exactly how much the "elephants" in "A". ''giganteus''' mass weigh because the idea is exactly to not provide a number. [[User:Kiwi Rex|Kiwi Rex]] ([[User talk:Kiwi Rex|talk]]) 03:16, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
-{{reflist}}
-== We need to sort this out ==
-Hi fellow Wikipedians,
-We need to sort this out. How are we measuring the dinosaurs in the list? Lowest estimate or highest estimate? Most recent estimate. Many dinosaurs have ranges of sizes. I honestly think we shouldn't do this, but rank sauropods based on the most recent estimate (unless it is obviously inaccurate - like Ultrasauros).
-What do you guys think?
+== Rules for Sources ==
-[[User:PNSMurthy|PNSMurthy ]] ([[User talk:PNSMurthy|talk]]) 07:44, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
+I've been away from Wikipedia for a while and it looks like the controversial heavy mass estimates for therapods have been removed. May I ask what are the current standards for deciding what sources are reliable to be used in the page? [[User:Spinosaurus75 (Dinosaur Fan)|Spinosaurus75 (Dinosaur Fan)]] ([[User talk:Spinosaurus75 (Dinosaur Fan)|talk]]) 15:21, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
-:I think we should redo all lists or even get rid of them. Many of those species were more or less the same size. It's very misleading to say X is bigger than Y just because one specimen of X is 10 cm longer than a certain specimen of Y. If we keep the lists, I think we should do something similar to [[User:Kiwi Rex/sandbox#List of largest sauropods|this]], and maybe add notes to explain certain estimates (i.e. Molina-Pérez & Larramendi disagree with Paul about the "Mamenchisaurus" ''sinocanadorum'' fossil indicating a ~35 m long animal, and the note could explain their argument). [[User:Kiwi Rex|Kiwi Rex]] ([[User talk:Kiwi Rex|talk]]) 16:41, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
-::Indeed. I believe we should give precedence to the '''most recent''' estimate, and should not give a range of widely differing estimates. By the way; in your sandbox, you have produced an unreasonably small size for Futlongkosaurus.[[User:PNSMurthy|PNSMurthy ]] ([[User talk:PNSMurthy|talk]]) 23:04, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
-:::Number lists are honestly rather doomed to be misleading no matter what we do, because they present a strict hierarchy, as opposed to the more ambiguous reality of size estimations. [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dinosaurs/Archive 32#Sauropod Encyclopedia|The ''Dinosaur Facts and Figures'' books are not reliable sources.]] Also, I don't understand how 29t is "unreasonably small" for ''Futalognkosaurus'', going by [http://www.gspauldino.com/Titanomass.pdf Paul (2019)]. --[[User:Slate Weasel|Slate Weasel]] ⟨[[User talk:Slate Weasel|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Slate Weasel|C]] - [[User:Slate Weasel/sandbox|S]]⟩ 23:28, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
-::::It's been suggested in the past that we should just [[WP:BLOWITUP]] and I'm inclined to bring that back to the table. [[User:Lusotitan|'''''<span style="color:#00FF83">Luso</span><span style="color:#FF7178">titan</span>''''']] ([[User_talk:Lusotitan|Talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Lusotitan|Contributions]]) 04:28, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
-:::::{{ping| State Weasel}}, scaling down from Puertosaurus, I gained 41 tonnes. And, like Dreadnoughtus, many estimates give higher sizes. Honestly, I think its shrinkwrapped.[[User:PNSMurthy|PNSMurthy ]] ([[User talk:PNSMurthy|talk]]) 04:31, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
+:The one who removed the data from this page is absolutely IDIOT because for large dinosaurs dimension estimates varies a lot and  there is no way to determine for sure if they were accurate. As long as dimensions attributed to dinosaurs reflected the estimation made by scientists it was legit to appear on this page and to reclaim so called inaccuracies of this page is completeley STUPID. A previoussly very useful wikipedia page became just a stump. [[Special:Contributions/85.120.166.69|85.120.166.69]] ([[User talk:85.120.166.69|talk]]) 15:19, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
-:::::{{ping|Lusotitan}} Okay suggestion, but I disagree. I have a mind to sort through the list and only keep 1 estimate (favorably the latest one).[[User:PNSMurthy|PNSMurthy ]] ([[User talk:PNSMurthy|talk]]) 04:31, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
-::::::I think the list format is too flawed to ever work, hence why this article never has. Dinosaur size estimation is too uncertain for a list to be reliable or substantive. It feels more like the kind of dick measuring contest you'd find on Carnivora forum than something of any encyclopedic value. The article would be best entirely abandoned and just redirected to [[dinosaur]] or shifted in focus to be about how dinosaur size is estimated and the biomechanics behind that size (along with some more limited text-based discussion of the largest and smallest dinosaurs over the years). [[User:Lusotitan|'''''<span style="color:#00FF83">Luso</span><span style="color:#FF7178">titan</span>''''']] ([[User_talk:Lusotitan|Talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Lusotitan|Contributions]]) 07:10, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
-:::::::Removing the lists and devoting the article to how dinosaur size is measured, biomechanical implications, and history of scaling is actually an interesting idea... Anyways, why would one scale a dinosaur known from 4 vertebrae to get a mass estimate for a significantly more complete one? If anything, the opposite should be done. Also, the supermassive ''[[Dreadnoughtus]]'' estimates have been deemed inaccurate by [https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/pdf/10.1098/rsbl.2015.0215 Bates et. al. (2015)], who found a mass of 22-38t, comparable to the results published by Paul. But then again, this is not the place for [[WP:OR]], we cannot claim that Paul (2019) is unreasonable based on [[WP:OR]]. As for lists, keeping only the latest estimate is problematic in and of itself, as different studies will reconstruct radically different flesh profiles or use entirely different methods to determine body size, and use different taxa. --[[User:Slate Weasel|Slate Weasel]] ⟨[[User talk:Slate Weasel|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Slate Weasel|C]] - [[User:Slate Weasel/sandbox|S]]⟩ 12:18, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
-::::::::Putting the most recent study may or may not be good. For example, if a less recent study is well-supported, and then a more recent study is published but only few studies support its conclusions, I will still go for the well-supported study, even if it's less recent. [[User:JurassicClassic767|<span style="color:mediumblue">Jurassic</span><span style="color:red">Classic</span><span style="color:gold">767</span>]] ([[User talk:JurassicClassic767|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/JurassicClassic767|contribs]]) 14:31, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
-:::::::::{{ping|Lusotitan}} This article is relatively well know and popular. What will happen if it disappears one fine day? Even though WP isn't generally considered reliable, its still public, and, if publicly visible. We aren't the only viewers of the page. Again, what will the public do?[[User:PNSMurthy|PNSMurthy ]] ([[User talk:PNSMurthy|talk]]) 23:10, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
-::::::::::I don't fully understand your worries - it seems like the main options the article will be overhauled, in which case the public can read the new article, or the article gets redirected to a section in [[Dinosaur]], where the public can read that section. --[[User:Slate Weasel|Slate Weasel]] ⟨[[User talk:Slate Weasel|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Slate Weasel|C]] - [[User:Slate Weasel/sandbox|S]]⟩ 12:20, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
-:::::::::::Agreed, the contents won't "disappear", they'll perhaps just change or will be redirected to another page. [[User:JurassicClassic767|<span style="color:mediumblue">Jurassic</span><span style="color:red">Classic</span><span style="color:gold">767</span>]] ([[User talk:JurassicClassic767|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/JurassicClassic767|contribs]]) 14:57, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
-:::::::::::::That's perfect. Let's all start practising what we preach now okay? Lets get to work.[[User:PNSMurthy|PNSMurthy ]] ([[User talk:PNSMurthy|talk]]) 23:08, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
-::::Regarding the inclusion of estimates from that book, my intention was initially to have ''something'' to create the table with, and only later put more estimates from better sources. I chose that one to start with just because it's one of the few compilations of multiple estimates. It wasn't my intention to actually put those numbers in an article - I also think they are fishy. [[User:Kiwi Rex|Kiwi Rex]] ([[User talk:Kiwi Rex|talk]]) 00:35, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
-:::::By the way, this is also why I think the [[User:Kiwi Rex/sandbox#List of largest theropod dinosaurs (10+ meters)|theropod version]] is better - it lists the numbers for length and mass together instead of dividing by source, but still mentions exactly who estimated what number. (Unreliable sources here too; this is just a model). [[User:Kiwi Rex|Kiwi Rex]] ([[User talk:Kiwi Rex|talk]]) 00:40, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
-== Another Source ==
+== Other sizes ==
+This article presents itself as being about dinosaur size generally, but then is mostly about big sauropods. What was the smallest sauropodomorph? What was the average size for sauropods and therapods? What about sub-types like ceratopsians and stegosaurs? [[User:Furius|Furius]] ([[User talk:Furius|talk]]) 09:15, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
-Found a blog post that shows a massive sauropod (at least 80 tonnes as far as I can tell). If you think the source is still unreliable, the blog cites a source that also describes the sauropod in question (albeit briefly). Can this be catalogued - that is, if we do not rework the whole list?[[User:PNSMurthy|PNSMurthy ]] ([[User talk:PNSMurthy|talk]]) 09:39, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
+:The article has been severely cut down since its inception due to persistent issues with the use of some sources.  It obviously needs a major overhaul, but nobody has taken on this task, presumably because it would require a huge amount of work and a lot of people would have differing opinions about it.  If that's a task you're interested in, I suggest you post on [[WP:PALEOAW]] so that we can get a team of editors on it.  If not, I can't imagine it will change soon.  It's on my long-term to-do list but most of my attention is on other projects at the moment. [[User:A Cynical Idealist|A Cynical Idealist]] ([[User talk:A Cynical Idealist|talk]]) 05:57, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
-:I realise have forgotten to link the post, here is the link:https://thesauropodomorphlair.wordpress.com/2020/06/04/the-candeleros-monster/.[[User:PNSMurthy|PNSMurthy ]] ([[User talk:PNSMurthy|talk]]) 09:43, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
-::This, again, does not qualify as a reliable source. With blogs, stick with those published by the experts in the field (i.e. SV-POW!). Rib scaling is honestly quite a terrible method to get a reliable estimates. This post assumes that "proximal half" means exactly one half of the rib AND that this rib belongs to a lognkosaur in order to reach the conclusions. The error margin for such estimates is immense. --[[User:Slate Weasel|Slate Weasel]] ⟨[[User talk:Slate Weasel|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Slate Weasel|C]] - [[User:Slate Weasel/sandbox|S]]⟩ 12:13, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
-:::State Weasel, I also mentioned that this blog post cited the article in which it got the rib from. The same source also hints at this dinosaur being similar (or even a sister taxon), to  Argentinasaurus, which is a Longkosaur.[[User:PNSMurthy|PNSMurthy ]] ([[User talk:PNSMurthy|talk]]) 00:27, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
-::::The source provides no overall size estimate though, other than that it comes from a "gigantic" animal. Additionally, the source only hints about a relation to ''Argentinosaurus'', stating "Further studies (Calvo ''in prep.'') will establish if it has some relationships with the largest known sauropod, ''Argentinosaurus''." This leaves things a little open-ended, as such a study seems to be lacking, and it is only stated that it ''could'' be related to ''Argentinosaurus''. Titanosaur phylogeny has changed radically in the last 21 years, so that throws further uncertainty on things. --[[User:Slate Weasel|Slate Weasel]] ⟨[[User talk:Slate Weasel|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Slate Weasel|C]] - [[User:Slate Weasel/sandbox|S]]⟩