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== First Nagorno-Karabakh War == |
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Hi P.T. Aufrette, in your move request you argued that the First was needed as a disambiguator. Given that is the case, is there a reason you are editing across articles to insert "First" as part of a proper name? [[User:Chipmunkdavis|CMD]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 10:36, 19 November 2020 (UTC) |
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:{{re|Chipmunkdavis}} The page [[Nagorno-Karabakh War]] should now point to a disambiguation page, as I argued in the successful Requested Move. But I haven't changed it just yet, because articles using the old link should first be edited to point directly to the new title, instead of sending the user to a disambiguation page. That is what I'm doing now. -- [[User:P.T. Aufrette|P.T. Aufrette]] ([[User talk:P.T. Aufrette#top|talk]]) 13:56, 19 November 2020 (UTC) |
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== [[Wikipedia:Proposed deletion|Proposed deletion]] of [[:Urban agglomeration of Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine]] == |
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:PS, I am looking at each link on a case-by-case basis. Sometimes a more appropriate link is [[Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]], which is an overview of all the wars and clashes. -- [[User:P.T. Aufrette|P.T. Aufrette]] ([[User talk:P.T. Aufrette#top|talk]]) 14:09, 19 November 2020 (UTC) |
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[[File:Ambox warning yellow.svg|left|link=|alt=Notice|48px|]] |
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:Is there any specific edit you disagree with, and if so, what would be your suggestion? -- [[User:P.T. Aufrette|P.T. Aufrette]] ([[User talk:P.T. Aufrette#top|talk]]) 14:16, 19 November 2020 (UTC) |
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::My suggestion would be not to use "First Nagorno-Karabak War" as a proper name, because it isn't one. This specifically applies to most if not all of your recent edits. Further, you're replacing already disambiguated instances, such as "1991-1994 Nagorno-Karabakh War", with "First Nagorno-Karabakh War", and I don't understand the reasoning behind that either. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|CMD]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 14:42, 19 November 2020 (UTC) |
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The article [[:Urban agglomeration of Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine]] has been [[Wikipedia:Proposed deletion|proposed for deletion]] because of the following concern: |
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:::{{re|Chipmunkdavis}}The simplest way to link to a page is just to use the page's actual title. The problem with disambiguations involving years is the disagreement over exactly which year the war can be considered to have started. Over various Wikipedia pages I have seen 1988, 1989, 1991 and 1992. There were initial conflicts and then the bona-fide warfare broke out when the Soviet Union collapsed. So it may be simpler just to use a year-neutral version. But in many cases I did leave the years intact in my more recent edits. I still have trouble understanding your "proper name" objection. In the policies and guidelines pages, titles that differ only by capitalization are considered equivalent to one another except for specific cases like [[Ice Cube]] vs. [[Ice cube]] or [[Iron Maiden]] vs. [[Iron maiden]] (to use actual examples cited there) where, for example, some artist or work adopted a common term as a proper name or title, and the different capitalizations actually refer to entirely different things. -- [[User:P.T. Aufrette|P.T. Aufrette]] ([[User talk:P.T. Aufrette#top|talk]]) 14:58, 19 November 2020 (UTC) |
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<blockquote>'''unsourced'''</blockquote> |
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::::You are not using the term in titles, you are using the term as a proper noun within prose in sentences. You are treating a disambiguating adjective as part of the actual name of the event. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|CMD]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 15:10, 19 November 2020 (UTC) |
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::::It would also be useful to know how you are determining which link is most appropriate. Changes like [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Public_holidays_in_Azerbaijan&diff=prev&oldid=989529662 this one] change the meaning of the sentence, contradicting the source at hand. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|CMD]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 15:13, 19 November 2020 (UTC) |
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While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be [[WP:DEL#REASON|deleted for any of several reasons]]. |
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:::::The "Martyrs' Day" holiday is not just for the first war with Armenians, it also marks the "Black January" event which was a crackdown by the central Soviet government. The name of the holiday, according to the [[Black January]] article, is literally "the Day of the Nationwide Sorrow". The Google translation of the the Azeri Wikipedia article cross-linked with [[Public holidays in Azerbaijan]] gives the name as "National Day of Mourning" and it also says: ''"Article 106 of the Labor Code of the Republic of Azerbaijan states: Every year, January 20 - the day of commemoration of the martyrs who died for the independence and territorial integrity of Azerbaijan - is a day of national mourning."'' Based on that, it seems clear that those deemed martyrs of the recent war will also be commemorated. I changed the link to the "overall conflict" page rather than routinely linking to the page for the first war only. -- [[User:P.T. Aufrette|P.T. Aufrette]] ([[User talk:P.T. Aufrette#top|talk]]) 16:08, 19 November 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::Regarding your first point, I will make a greater effort to retain or adapt original link text rather than just replacing with the page title. But at least where the original link is simply [[Nagorno-Karabakh War]] I do feel the most sensible thing to do is to replace it with [[First Nagorno-Karabakh War]]. We may disagree, but at some point the disagreement risks devolving into "relitigating" the Move Request discussion. -- [[User:P.T. Aufrette|P.T. Aufrette]] ([[User talk:P.T. Aufrette#top|talk]]) 16:08, 19 November 2020 (UTC) |
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You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your [[Help:edit summary|edit summary]] or on [[Talk:Urban agglomeration of Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine|the article's talk page]]. |
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::::::Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Changes to the article text should not be based on them, especially when there is a reliable source already in place on the text being changed. On the use of "First" in prose, it is not the same as the move request. You are inserting the new article title as a proper noun in hundreds of articles, without any sources supporting this. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|CMD]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 16:15, 19 November 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::::{{re|Chipmunkdavis}}The Azeri Wikipedia excerpt I gave literally cites Article 106 of the Labor Code of the Republic of Azerbaijan. That is surely an unimpeachable source. -- [[User:P.T. Aufrette|P.T. Aufrette]] ([[User talk:P.T. Aufrette#top|talk]]) 16:26, 19 November 2020 (UTC) |
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Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the [[Wikipedia:Proposed deletion|proposed deletion process]], but other [[Wikipedia:deletion process|deletion process]]es exist. In particular, the [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion|speedy deletion]] process can result in deletion without discussion, and [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion|articles for deletion]] allows discussion to reach [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] for deletion.<!-- Template:Proposed deletion notify --> [[User:Chidgk1|Chidgk1]] ([[User talk:Chidgk1|talk]]) 19:03, 23 May 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::PS, kindly do not revert back to linking to the disambiguation page, as you did [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Armenian-controlled_territories_surrounding_Nagorno-Karabakh&oldid=prev&diff=989534449 here]. A better way to proceed would have been to preserve the correct page link: 1988-1994 [['''First Nagorno-Karabakh War|'''Nagorno-Karabakh War]] . -- [[User:P.T. Aufrette|P.T. Aufrette]] ([[User talk:P.T. Aufrette#top|talk]]) 16:26, 19 November 2020 (UTC) |
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:I addressed this issue. However, I'm not nearly as active on Wikipedia as I used to be, so it's pure happenstance that I logged in during the 7-day interval for proposed deletion. For what it's worth, the corresponding French Wikipedia article did have references. -- [[User:P.T. Aufrette|P.T. Aufrette]] ([[User talk:P.T. Aufrette#top|talk]]) 02:05, 28 May 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::No, citing Wikipedia is not unimpeachable. This is specifically mentioned at [[WP:RSPRIMARY]]. The Azerbaijani Labor Code would itself, also be a primary source. And at least in that specific case, there was already a source on the page in question. In the RM, you specifically argued that the change was as a descriptive title, comparing it to the 2020 article with "just a normal application of WP:DESCRIPDIS". Your current edits are not treating it as a descriptive title. On better ways to proceed, I did make changes at a later point, and if that sort of formulation is better why are you instead treating the new title as a proper noun? [[User:Chipmunkdavis|CMD]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 16:37, 19 November 2020 (UTC) |
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== Your submission at [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for creation]]: [[Draft:Rupert Snell|Rupert Snell]] (November 7) == |
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:::::::::I am making edits by hand, rather than mechanically. That does not preclude making other changes in passing, or alternative edits. I look at the context, and in cases where linking to [[Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]] is a better choice, as it was in the example above, then I can choose to make that edit like any other ordinary edit, as a modification to the original link created by a previous editor. I don't agree that your formulations are better, I'm merely saying you should take care not to break the link to the actual page and inadvertently substitute back the old link that points to what will very soon be a disambiguation page. -- [[User:P.T. Aufrette|P.T. Aufrette]] ([[User talk:P.T. Aufrette#top|talk]]) 17:04, 19 November 2020 (UTC) |
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<div style="border: solid 1px #FCC; background-color: #F8EEBC; padding: 0.5em 1em; color: #000; margin: 1.5em; width: 90%;"> [[File:AFC-Logo_Decline.svg|50px|left]]Your recent article submission to [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|Articles for Creation]] has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time.<nowiki> </nowiki>The reasons left by Greenman were: |
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::::::::::It's not my formulation, you used it in early edits such as [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Mamar_Mosque&diff=prev&oldid=989387581 this one]. It's unreasonable to ask others to fix the edits where you are spreading what based on the sources mentioned in the RM is a novel term throughout hundreds of articles. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|CMD]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 02:49, 20 November 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::I don't agree that it needs "fixing" at all. If the title of a Wikipedia article is "Quick Brown Fox", then it seems absurd to claim that the plain verbatim link [[Quick Brown Fox]] can never appear as such in any text in Wikipedia. What rule can you cite to justify such a claim? -- [[User:P.T. Aufrette|P.T. Aufrette]] ([[User talk:P.T. Aufrette#top|talk]]) 04:34, 20 November 2020 (UTC) |
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{{divbox|gray|3=This submission is not adequately supported by [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. ''Reliable'' sources are required so that information can be [[WP:Verifiability|verified]]. If you need help with referencing, please see [[Help:Referencing for beginners|Referencing for beginners]] and [[Wikipedia:Citing sources|Citing sources]].|}}<!-- |
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::::::::::::It's how descriptive titles work. The lead of [[History of Azerbaijan]] opens with "The history of Azerbaijan", not "The History of Azerbaijan". [[User:Chipmunkdavis|CMD]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 05:13, 20 November 2020 (UTC) |
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-->{{divbox|gray|3=This submission's references do not show that the subject [[Wikipedia:Notability|qualifies for a Wikipedia article]]—that is, they do not show ''significant'' coverage (not just passing mentions) about the subject in ''published'', [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|''reliable'']], [[Wikipedia:No_original_research#Secondary|''secondary'']] sources that are ''[[Wikipedia:Independent sources|independent]]'' of the subject (see the [[Wikipedia:Notability (people)|guidelines on the notability of people]]). Before any resubmission, additional references meeting these criteria should be added (see [[Help:Referencing_for_beginners#Inserting_a_reference|technical help]] and learn about [[Wikipedia:Common sourcing mistakes (notability)|mistakes to avoid]] when addressing this issue). If no additional references exist, the subject is not suitable for Wikipedia.|}}<!-- |
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:::::::::::::{{re|Chipmunkdavis}}Fair enough, but now you're calling it a descriptive title rather than a proper name. But in that case the [[WP:DESCRIPDIS]] disambiguation method was suitable after all, and there shouldn't have been grounds to oppose the disambiguation renaming. -- [[User:P.T. Aufrette|P.T. Aufrette]] ([[User talk:P.T. Aufrette#top|talk]]) 13:49, 21 November 2020 (UTC) |
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-- |
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:::::::::::::Even in the case of the [[First Chechen War]], as late as 2014 both [https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2014/12/11/chechnya-russia-and-20-years-of-conflict Al Jazeera] and [https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2014/12/11/chechnya-russia-and-20-years-of-conflict The Guardian] used a lowercase "f" and lowercase "w" in their stories marking the 20th anniversary of the conflict. On the other hand, [https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/04/some-basic-facts-about-chechnya/316111/ The Atlantic] in 2013 and [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/10/world/europe/photos-chechen-war-russia.html The New York Times] in 2019 used "F" and "W". Restricting the search to books.google.com shows some using one form, some using the other. It's probably just an arbitrary style manual choice of each publication, without any broader implications. So even in the long term, these questions will not be settled to everyone's satisfaction. Except in the very long term, there tends to be an inevitable drift towards universal all-caps usage, as in the [[First Balkan War]]. In any case, Wikipedia used all caps for First Chechen War and Second Chechen War right from the earliest versions of those articles circa 2002 and 2003. -- [[User:P.T. Aufrette|P.T. Aufrette]] ([[User talk:P.T. Aufrette#top|talk]]) 13:49, 21 November 2020 (UTC) |
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--> The comment the reviewer left was: |
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::::::::::::::I've always said it wasn't a proper name. That was mentioned in the RM. As for other wars, they have their own names. Determining English usage for the war in question requires sources on that war. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|CMD]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 14:36, 21 November 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::::::Ah, OK, it was the other user, [[User:Brandmeister|Brandmeister]], who made the "proper name" argument in the Requested Move discussion. I mentioned [[First Chechen War]] as illustrative of what we might expect for this war: an old (pre-Wikipedia) war needing a new name or description due to a newer war, and even twenty years later there wasn't agreement on whether it's a proper name or a just a descriptive naming. In any case, German state news [https://www.dw.com/en/nagorno-karabakh-azeri-army-enters-first-territory-ceded-by-armenia/a-55671735 Deutsche Welle] has used the all-capitalized version: First Nagorno-Karabakh War. -- [[User:P.T. Aufrette|P.T. Aufrette]] ([[User talk:P.T. Aufrette#top|talk]]) 15:31, 21 November 2020 (UTC) |
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{{divbox|blue|3=See [[WP:BLP]]. All statements, starting with the year of birth, need to be sourced or removed.}} Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit ''after they have been resolved''. |
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::::::::::::::::The trouble with news articles post-move is that they likely as not may be taking cues from Wikipedia. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|CMD]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 15:42, 21 November 2020 (UTC) |
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{{clear}} |
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:::::::::::::::::Unlikely, since Al Jazeera and The Guardian did not take twelve years of cues from Wikipedia regarding [[First Chechen War]]. -- [[User:P.T. Aufrette|P.T. Aufrette]] ([[User talk:P.T. Aufrette#top|talk]]) 16:35, 21 November 2020 (UTC) |
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* If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to [[Draft:Rupert Snell]] and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window. |
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:::::::::::::::::It turns out, the state Armenian news agency [[Armenpress]] was using the all-capitalized version [[https://armenpress.am/eng/news/1031330.html back in October]]. I don't know if that influenced anyone. Probably different people are arriving at one naming convention or the other independently but for much the same reasons. -- [[User:P.T. Aufrette|P.T. Aufrette]] ([[User talk:P.T. Aufrette#top|talk]]) 16:44, 21 November 2020 (UTC) |
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* If you do not edit your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#G13. Abandoned Drafts and Articles for creation submissions|may be deleted]]. |
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:::::::::::::::::PS, the case-insensitive term "first nagorno-karabakh war" is used in sources from both Armenian .am and Azerbaijan .az domains. Some usages even predate the recent war, because some consider the 2016 conflict to have been a war. So the terminology at least, independently of capitalization issues, does seem to be acceptable on both sides. -- [[User:P.T. Aufrette|P.T. Aufrette]] ([[User talk:P.T. Aufrette#top|talk]]) 16:53, 21 November 2020 (UTC) |
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Latest revision as of 00:05, 19 November 2024
- User talk:P.T. Aufrette/archive5
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The article Urban agglomeration of Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:
unsourced
While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.
You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.
Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Chidgk1 (talk) 19:03, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- I addressed this issue. However, I'm not nearly as active on Wikipedia as I used to be, so it's pure happenstance that I logged in during the 7-day interval for proposed deletion. For what it's worth, the corresponding French Wikipedia article did have references. -- P.T. Aufrette (talk) 02:05, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
Your submission at Articles for creation: Rupert Snell (November 7)
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Hello, P.T. Aufrette!
Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the Articles for creation help desk. If you have any other questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the Teahouse, a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! Greenman (talk) 06:56, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
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ArbCom 2023 Elections voter message
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The article Tooken (disambiguation) has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:
A disambiguation page is not required. The primary topic article has a hatnote to the other possible use.
While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.
You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.
Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 19:42, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
"Radio-Canada" listed at Redirects for discussion
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The redirect Radio-Canada has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Anyone, including you, is welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 30 § Radio-Canada until a consensus is reached. LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 23:00, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
"Xi variant" listed at Redirects for discussion
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The redirect Xi variant has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Anyone, including you, is welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 June 6 § Xi variant until a consensus is reached. 48JCL TALK 20:55, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
ArbCom 2024 Elections voter message
[edit]Hello! Voting in the 2024 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on Monday, 2 December 2024. All eligible users are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.
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