Talk:Gary Fan

Requested move 1

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved per request, no objections in two weeks. Dekimasuよ! 07:12, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

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Gary Fan → Gary Fan Kwok-wai – Easier to search in Bing and Google because "gary fan" includes this person and fans of Gary <whoever>. Also, it is HK name-styling, especially among politicians and some celebrities, and fairly used per WP:NCP. --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 06:14, 3 December 2014 (UTC) George Ho (talk) 08:03, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

The first part is not a reason to move the article, however. George, if you want to shift so many articles to Hong Kong-style naming, and are going to propose several such moves each day, wouldn't it be more efficient to work on getting a naming convention established that will allow these to be processed without discussion? Dekimasuよ! 22:29, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Dekimasu, see Talk:Connie Mak and Talk:Ivy Ling Po and Talk:Anthony Wong (Hong Kong actor). I had to be careful; that is all. --George Ho (talk) 00:06, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 09 December 2014

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved per Common Name argument. regentspark (comment) 23:46, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

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Gary Fan Kwok-wai → Gary Fan – There's only one notable person named 'Gary Fan'. The last move was closed prematurely. The current title does not follow any standard. TheAvatar (discuss–?) 19:46, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

• "Gary Fan" and "Fan Kwok-wai" wouldn't do much. There have been moves recently on Hong Kong politicians, especially Jasper Tsang Yok-sing (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and Cheung Kwok-che (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (which was copied-and-pasted from "Peter Cheung", now a redirect). I oppose. --George Ho (talk) 19:52, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Chinese name results forty-eight articles; Anglicized, seventy-four(?). --George Ho (talk) 20:01, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Those should be reverted as well. TheAvatar (discuss–?) 20:04, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Cheung Kwok-che hasn't moved to Peter Cheung yet. --George Ho (talk) 20:07, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Looking at the articles you moved, you will probably want it to be something long like Peter Cheung Kwok-che. Keep it simple, like the original title 'Gary Fan'. Search count can only be use as a crude measure. TheAvatar (discuss–?) 20:17, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

At first I didn't want to. I proposed a move on Ivy Ling Po, but there was no consensus at the time. Moreover, I have not fully understood the Hong Kong culture. I proposed a move on Wong Sing-chi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) but was unaware that the article was previously Nelson Wong (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) when someone copied-and-pasted. Someone cleaned up the mess after I requested cleanup. (Off-topic and personal: What about reading WP:Five pillars?) --George Ho (talk) 00:29, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

• "Closed prematurely" is a bit harsh–the request ran twice as long as usual, and there were no objections. However, I will reiterate what I said above, which is that it would be much more efficient to work on a naming convention related to Hong Kong (even if it ends up with guidance to treat these names the same as others) than to nominate moves of these articles piecemeal one direction or the other. This would fix the "does not follow any standard" concern as well. Dekimasuよ! 20:47, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - HK convention and per User:George Ho. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:12, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

There is no such convention. TheAvatar (discuss–?) 16:58, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose, procedural oppose and speedy close per my opinion last time. This only closed recently. If you want to dispute the resutl, use WP:MRV. Flipflopping article requests just because is a very bad idea. -- 67.70.35.44 (talk) 04:43, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment as for not following any standard, this naming method is clearly used in Hong Kong, therefore exists as a form of standardized name presentation. -- 67.70.35.44 (talk) 04:45, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
  • G Ho is the one that suggested a new RM. TheAvatar (discuss–?) 16:59, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
    • Rebut everyone all you want, but either you favour "Gary Fan" or "Fan Kwoi-wai". Otherwise, get used to the current name then. --George Ho (talk) 00:34, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
    • It's clearly your name TheAvatar attached to the move nomination, not George's. It's also your diff [1] -- 67.70.35.44 (talk) 05:00, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
• Support unnecessary disambiguation. There are no other notable Gary Fans. -- Ohc ^¡digame! 06:45, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

And there are no other 'Fan Kwok-wai's either, ohconfucius. --George Ho (talk) 08:22, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

• Support for the usual practice on wikipedia. It is usually Gary Fan or Gary Fan (politician), the english common name like Joshua Wong (student activist) and James Tien (politician) or just Fan Kwok-wai if his English name is not common. But since Gary Fan is a common name. I will go for Gary Fan. Lmmnhn (talk) 15:58, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
• Support because Gary Fan is his usual name in English media. No one calls him 'Gary Fan Kwok-wai' - it is just an attempt to cover two options with one title - which is not a WP standard. But I also agree with Dekimasu that we need a naming convention specifically for HK Chinese people. (I prefer to follow simple prevalence in English language media, but always with a bolded first-line mention of the romanised Chinese name if they are known differently in Chinese.) Onanoff (talk) 18:07, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

@Onanoff, Lmmnhn: Haven't you checked the links that I provided for you? "Fan Kwok-wai" is used either more than or as much as "Gary Fan"; of course, the results of "Fan Kwok-wai" includes "Gary Fan Kwok-wai". The ones using the "English Surname Chinese" format are HK sources. --George Ho (talk) 19:27, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I've looked again at the prevalences, and still find 'Gary Fan' much more common than 'Fan Kwok-wai' [2] (when not part of 'Gary Fan Kwok-wai'), especially in terms of actual prose, rather than (catch-all) headings of biographies etc. The Government (Info.gov.hk) uses 'Gary Fan'[3], so do RTHK, SCMP, Metro HK and the Standard, at least sometimes, and they don't use 'Fan Kwok-wai. International media are quite settled on 'Gary Fan': Al Jazeera, Businessweek, Newsweek, EJInsight, Wall Street Journal. In 2007, SCMP used 'Fan Kwok-wai' [4] and a few others do.

Then there are the various full versions, such as: 'Gary Fan Kwok Wai', 'Gary, Fan Kwok Wai', 'Gary Fan Kwok-wai', 'Gary, Fan Kwok-Wai', 'Fan Kwok Wai, Gary', 'Fan Kwok-wai, Gary'. These seem mostly used as formal attempts to comprehensively identify him - as a heading, in a first reference only. Notably, SCMP uses this format as a default, it seems (although I see they've dropped the inclusion of bracketed Chinese characters after).

Local media frequently change their conventions, which anyway include different versions for first-mention, body copy, headline, and captions. But WP should have the most common name as the title, with variations covered in the first sentence.

The real question is whether Gary's name is different from whatever the norm is in local usage or his preference. Once again, I support the call to consider HK Chinese naming conventions more thoroughly and for WP to take a position, even if there are then exceptions.
Onanoff (talk) 06:56, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

To me, "Gary Fan Kwok-wai" is more common than "Gary Fan" or "Fan Kwok-wai". --George Ho (talk) 18:45, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• Support per common name. Saying that the current title is "Hong Kong styling/convention" is just original research and a self-invention. The only thing that *may* be proven is its inconsistent usage and not some widespread convention. --Cold Season (talk) 05:14, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

"Gary Fan Kwok-wai" is more commonly used, despite similar sources using also "Gary Fan". --George Ho (talk) 19:47, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

• Support. A title should not be an exhaustive list of all names a subject has ever been known by. Typically, HK politicians articles use the format of Engrish first name followed by surname or surname plus Chinese given name, not a combination (see other entries at Category:Members of the Legislative Council of Hong Kong). Redirects will get readers where they want to go. —  AjaxSmack  02:00, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

@AjaxSmack: You mean "Gary" or "Kwok-wai"? You can't oppose without choosing either. --George Ho (talk) 00:25, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

• Support. Gary Fan is the common name used by the English language sources (eg the SCMP and RTHK sources). Stickee (talk) 05:48, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

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