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RSN discussion

Hey SaintPaulOfTarsus! I went ahead and opened a discussion on RSN for the verification of "battle of Kherson" discussion. I pinged you in it, but I wanted to give you a courtesy link to it here as well. Cheers! Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Verification of a phrase. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 16:38, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Compliments @WeatherWriter SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 23:45, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pre-emptive protection

There really isn't a need to request the protection of pages like 92nd Assault Brigade (Ukraine) preemptively. If there is no actual disruption on the pages many admins will decline these. Elli (talk | contribs) 22:17, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, regarding 92nd Assault Brigade (Ukraine) please see relatively recent unsourced additions and changes by IPs here, here and here for instance. Edits like these are very frequent on Ukrainian military unit pages leading to totally unverifiable lists of sub-units but I will be sure to include diffs in future requests. Appreciate the advice. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 00:27, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I'll protect that page given this reason (in general, even a minimal reason is fine for this topic area, but requesting a ton of pages with no reason makes it kinda difficult for admins who watch RFPP). Elli (talk | contribs) 02:50, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Elli, understood. I can see how it looks like I requested those pages pre-emptively or for no reason, but nearly all of them have very similar recent unsourced edits made by IPs in the same range. I have no problem adding the diffs to the requests to demonstrate that to administrators once I have a free moment. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 03:12, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Serbian wiki

How are you doing? I am writing to you just to inform you there is a discussion going on in the neighborhood, on the Serbian Wikipedia. A certain user is complaining about his mistreatment on the English Wikipedia. He is says his articles about Russian children killed in Donbas (Alley of Angels) was deleted a long time ago for no reason at all. You know this guy. He goes by the name of Baba Mica. A really temperamental fella, I can tell. You is quite pissed off.--Владимир Нимчевић (talk) 20:11, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Greetings Vladimir Nimčević. I am aware of the user, though I do not recall us interacting often. I was not a participant in any of the discussions mentioned on the Serbian Wikipedia, including that of the Alley of Angels (I would have opposed its deletion), so I would suggest that you message some other users who may have been more familiar with this person. Regards SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 01:26, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

They moved the discussion here. Baba Mica is angry and expects justice. :) --Владимир Нимчевић (talk) 14:55, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Introduction to contentious topics

You have recently edited a page related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, a topic designated as contentious. This is a brief introduction to contentious topics and does not imply that there are any issues with your editing.

A special set of rules applies to certain topic areas, which are referred to as contentious topics. These are specially designated topics that tend to attract more persistent disruptive editing than the rest of the project and have been designated as contentious topics by the Arbitration Committee. When editing a contentious topic, Wikipedia’s norms and policies are more strictly enforced, and Wikipedia administrators have an expanded level of powers and discretion in order to reduce disruption to the project.

Within contentious topics, editors should edit carefully and constructively, refrain from disrupting the encyclopedia, and:

adhere to the purposes of Wikipedia;
comply with all applicable policies and guidelines;
follow editorial and behavioural best practices;
comply with any page restrictions in force within the area of conflict; and
refrain from gaming the system.

Additionally, you must be logged-in, have 500 edits and an account age of 30 days, and are not allowed to make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on a page within this topic.

Editors are advised to err on the side of caution if unsure whether making a particular edit is consistent with these expectations. If you have any questions about contentious topics procedures, you may ask them at the arbitration clerks' noticeboard or you may learn more about this contentious topic here. You may also choose to note which contentious topics you know about by using the {{Ctopics/aware}} template.

Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 01:41, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Compliments for the introduction. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 01:57, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Hello! Voting in the 2024 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on Monday, 2 December 2024. All eligible users are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

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@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
+{{User:ClueBot III/ArchiveThis
-Hello world!
+| age                 =2160
+| archiveprefix       =User talk:SaintPaulOfTarsus/Archive
+| numberstart         =1
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+| header              ={{Automatic archive navigator}}
+| minkeepthreads      =5
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+}}{{Archives|bot=ClueBot III|age=90}}
+<!-- Template:Setup cluebot archiving -->
-== A Barnstar For You! ==
+== RSN discussion ==
+Hey SaintPaulOfTarsus! I went ahead and opened a discussion on RSN for the verification of "battle of Kherson" discussion. I pinged you in it, but I wanted to give you a courtesy link to it here as well. Cheers! [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Verification of a phrase]]. '''The [[User:WeatherWriter|Weather Event Writer]]''' ([[User talk:WeatherWriter|Talk Page)]] 16:38, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
-{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
-|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align:middle;" | {{#ifeq:{{{2}}}|alt|[[File:Speurneusster.svg|100px]]|[[File:Speurneusster.svg|100px]]}}
-|rowspan="2" |
-|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Detective Barnstar'''
-|-
-|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Thank you for your discovery of an extremely detailed news article for the [[Battle of Zikim]]. That discovery solved a talk page discussion and will inevitably lead to a large improvement to the article! Amazing job! '''The [[User:WeatherWriter|Weather Event Writer]]''' ([[User talk:WeatherWriter|Talk Page)]] 05:19, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
-|}
+:Compliments @[[User:WeatherWriter|WeatherWriter]] [[User:SaintPaulOfTarsus|SaintPaulOfTarsus]] ([[User talk:SaintPaulOfTarsus#top|talk]]) 23:45, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
-==Disambiguation link notification for November 4==
+== Pre-emptive protection ==
-Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. An automated process has detected that when you recently edited [[110th Separate Guards Motorized Rifle Brigade]], you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page [[Battle of Donetsk Airport]]<!-- ([//dispenser.info.tm/~dispenser/cgi-bin/dablinks.py/110th_Separate_Guards_Motorized_Rifle_Brigade check to confirm]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[//dispenser.info.tm/~dispenser/cgi-bin/dab_solver.py/110th_Separate_Guards_Motorized_Rifle_Brigade?client=notify fix with Dab solver])-->. Such links are [[WP:INTDABLINK|usually incorrect]], since a disambiguation page is merely a list of unrelated topics with similar titles. <small>(Read the [[User:DPL bot/Dablink notification FAQ|FAQ]]{{*}} Join us at the [[Wikipedia:Disambiguation pages with links|DPL WikiProject]].)</small>
+There really isn't a need to request the protection of pages like [[92nd Assault Brigade (Ukraine)]] preemptively. If there is no actual disruption on the pages many admins will decline these. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 22:17, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
-It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these [[User:DPL bot|opt-out instructions]]. Thanks, [[User:DPL bot|DPL bot]] ([[User talk:DPL bot|talk]]) 06:11, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
+:Hi, regarding [[92nd Assault Brigade (Ukraine)]] please see relatively recent unsourced additions and changes by IPs [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=92nd_Assault_Brigade_(Ukraine)&diff=prev&oldid=1231937196 here], [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=92nd_Assault_Brigade_(Ukraine)&diff=prev&oldid=1231935758 here] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=92nd_Assault_Brigade_(Ukraine)&diff=prev&oldid=1231943729 here] for instance. Edits like these are very frequent on Ukrainian military unit pages leading to totally unverifiable lists of sub-units but I will be sure to include diffs in future requests. Appreciate the advice. [[User:SaintPaulOfTarsus|SaintPaulOfTarsus]] ([[User talk:SaintPaulOfTarsus#top|talk]]) 00:27, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
-:Note to any interested people who happen to be browsing my talk page – in this case, it was not possible to distinguish which of the two battles of the Donetsk Airport the existing source was referring to. [[User:SaintPaulOfTarsus|SaintPaulOfTarsus]] ([[User talk:SaintPaulOfTarsus#top|talk]]) 13:07, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
+::Thanks. I'll protect that page given this reason (in general, even a minimal reason is fine for this topic area, but requesting a ton of pages with no reason makes it kinda difficult for admins who watch RFPP). [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 02:50, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
+:::Thanks, Elli, understood. I can see how it looks like I requested those pages pre-emptively or for no reason, but nearly all of them have very similar recent unsourced edits made by IPs in the same range. I have no problem adding the diffs to the requests to demonstrate that to administrators once I have a free moment. [[User:SaintPaulOfTarsus|SaintPaulOfTarsus]] ([[User talk:SaintPaulOfTarsus#top|talk]]) 03:12, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
-== For future reference... ==
+== Serbian wiki ==
+How are you doing? I am writing to you just to inform you there is a [https://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B0:%D0%90%D0%B4%D0%BC%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0_%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B0 discussion going on] in the neighborhood, on the Serbian Wikipedia. A certain user is complaining about his mistreatment on the English Wikipedia. He is says his articles about Russian children killed in Donbas (Alley of Angels) was deleted a long time ago for no reason at all. You know this guy. He goes by the name of Baba Mica. A really temperamental fella, I can tell. You is quite pissed off.--[[User:Владимир Нимчевић|Владимир Нимчевић]] ([[User talk:Владимир Нимчевић|talk]]) 20:11, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
-Your statement that the "US statement did not mention "Shia militias," rather "Iran-affiliated militias" was wrong. They did mention it being Shia militias. Review the article used in the source before fabricating false statements. [[User:RamHez|RamHez]] ([[User talk:RamHez|talk]]) 12:42, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
+:Greetings Vladimir Nimčević. I am aware of the user, though I do not recall us interacting often. I was not a participant in any of the discussions mentioned on the Serbian Wikipedia, including that of the Alley of Angels (I would have opposed its deletion), so I would suggest that you message some other users who may have been more familiar with this person. Regards [[User:SaintPaulOfTarsus|SaintPaulOfTarsus]] ([[User talk:SaintPaulOfTarsus#top|talk]]) 01:26, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
-:[[User:RamHez]], thanks for your concern. "Shia militias" is the language used by the website Atlas News. The U.S. government itself made no mention of any religious terminology in its statement.
-:Kindly remember to assume good faith and review the article yourself before leaving such fabrications on my talk page.
-:My very best wishes
-:[[User:SaintPaulOfTarsus|SaintPaulOfTarsus]] ([[User talk:SaintPaulOfTarsus#top|talk]]) 21:50, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
+They moved the discussion [https://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B0:%D0%A2%D1%80%D0%B3/%D0%A0%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%BD%D0%BE here]. Baba Mica is angry and expects justice. :) --[[User:Владимир Нимчевић|Владимир Нимчевић]] ([[User talk:Владимир Нимчевић|talk]]) 14:55, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
+== Introduction to contentious topics ==
-== from [[user:irtapil]] ==
+{{ivmbox | image = Commons-emblem-notice.svg |imagesize=50px | bg = #E5F8FF | text  = You have recently edited a page related to '''the [[Arab–Israeli conflict]]''', a topic designated as '''''[[WP:AC/CT|contentious]]'''''. This is a brief introduction to contentious topics and <em>does <strong>not</strong> imply that there are any issues with your editing</em>.
+A special set of rules applies to certain topic areas, which are referred to as ''contentious topics''. These are specially designated topics that tend to attract more persistent disruptive editing than the rest of the project and have been designated as contentious topics by the [[WP:ARB|Arbitration Committee]]. When editing a contentious topic, Wikipedia’s norms and policies are more strictly enforced, and Wikipedia [[WP:ADMIN|administrators]] have an expanded level of powers and discretion in order to reduce disruption to the project.
-I came here to talk about [[#The Siege of Gaza City Belligerents]] but i spotted some interesting things on ypur user page on the way. [[User:Irtapil|Irtapil]] ([[User talk:Irtapil|talk]]) 17:40, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
+Within contentious topics, editors should edit <strong>carefully and constructively</strong>, refrain from disrupting the encyclopedia, and:
-=== what do the flags indicate on your list? ===
+*adhere to the [[Wikipedia:Purpose|purposes of Wikipedia]];
+*comply with all applicable [[WP:PG|policies and guidelines]];
+*follow editorial and behavioural best practices;
+*comply with any page restrictions in force within the area of conflict; and
+*refrain from [[WP:GAMING|gaming the system]].
+<p>Additionally, you must be logged-in, have [[WP:ECR|500 edits and an account age of 30 days]], and are not allowed to make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on a page within this topic.</p><p>Editors are advised to err on the side of caution if unsure whether making a particular edit is consistent with these expectations. If you have any questions about contentious topics ''procedures'', you may ask them at the [[WT:AC/C|arbitration clerks' noticeboard]] or you may learn more about this contentious topic [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Palestine-Israel articles|here]]. You may also choose to note which contentious topics you know about by using the {{tl|Ctopics/aware}} template.  </p>}}<!-- Derived from Template:Contentious topics/alert/first --> [[User:Significa liberdade|Significa liberdade <small>(she/her)</small>]] ([[User talk:Significa liberdade|talk]]) 01:41, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
-: {{flagicon|Israel}} '''[[Battle of Zikim]]'''<br>
-: {{flagicon|Israel}} '''[[Battle of Sufa]]'''
-: Are they just the location? or the winner?
-: Though i suppose for war battles, those are usually the same after the battle.
-: [[User:Irtapil|Irtapil]] ([[User talk:Irtapil|talk]]) 17:41, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
-::I suppose they indicate the location, though I didn't put much thought into it. [[User:SaintPaulOfTarsus|SaintPaulOfTarsus]] ([[User talk:SaintPaulOfTarsus#top|talk]]) 04:51, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
+:Compliments for the introduction. [[User:SaintPaulOfTarsus|SaintPaulOfTarsus]] ([[User talk:SaintPaulOfTarsus#top|talk]]) 01:57, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
-=== They edit protected a TALK PAGE? ===
+== ArbCom 2024 Elections voter message ==
-{{userbox
-| border-c = #708090
-| float    = left
-| id       = {{{3|[[File:October 2023 Gaza−Israel conflict.svg|55px]]}}}
-| id-c     = #EBC0B3
-| id-fc    = {{{id-fc|black}}}
-| id-s     = {{{5|{{{id-s|14}}}}}}
-| info     = {{{4|This user opposes the [[Talk:2023_Israel–Hamas_war#Talk_page_indefinitely_EC_protected|extended-confirmed protection]] of the [[Talk:2023_Israel-Hamas war|'''2023 Israel-Hamas war talk page''']].<includeonly>{{#ifeq:{{lc:{{{category|}}}}}|no||}}</includeonly>}}}
-| info-c   = #FFFB13
-| info-fc  = {{{info-fc|black}}}
-| info-s   = {{{info-s|8}}}
-}} {{-}}
-[[User:Irtapil|Irtapil]] ([[User talk:Irtapil|talk]]) 17:41, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
+<div class="ivmbox " style="margin-bottom: 1em; border: 1px solid #a2a9b1; background-color: #fdf2d5; padding: 0.5em; display: flex; align-items: center; ">
-:They really did! You can read about the decision [[Talk:2023_Israel–Hamas_war/Archive 25#Talk_page_indefinitely_EC_protected|here]]. [[User:SaintPaulOfTarsus|SaintPaulOfTarsus]] ([[User talk:SaintPaulOfTarsus#top|talk]]) 04:49, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
+<div class="ivmbox-image noresize" style="padding-left:1px; padding-right:0.5em;">[[File:Scale of justice 2.svg|40px]]</div>
-::It sounds awful but might actually be a good idea, or at least better than the alternatives. Some of the talk pages are having stuff archived WAY too fast. Or people just are deleting posts, which seems VERY wrong? Edit protecting it is probably much less bad than that? People don't spend time writing comments that just get deleted, and they might look for somewhere better to communicate where it will get seen?
+<div class="ivmbox-text">
-::Maybe there needs to be a notice directing people towards the talk pages of the [[Outline of the 2023 Israel–Hamas war| more specific pages]]? If there is a problem on the main page, it is likely to be replicated on the more detailed pages? and the discussion there is less noisy.
+Hello! Voting in the '''[[WP:ACE2024|2024 Arbitration Committee elections]]''' is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on {{#time:l, j F Y|{{Arbitration Committee candidate/data|2024|end}}-1 day}}. All '''[[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2024#Election timeline|eligible users]]''' are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.
-::Is there an article "List of pages about the 2023 Israel Hamas war"? There's the [[List of engagements during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war]], but that's not intended to list every page, it had a different purpose. Unless you want to count [[Bearing Witness (2023 film)]] as a major military offensive… which actually kind of works? But in getting the proper page name for that i found what i was looking for … '''[[Outline of the 2023 Israel–Hamas war]]'''… I'll add that above.
-::Can we include that in the info box for the '''[[2023 Israel-Hamas war]] talk page'''? Somewhere as close as possible to where it says the talk page is edit locked?
-::[[User:Irtapil|Irtapil]] ([[User talk:Irtapil|talk]]) 15:01, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
+The [[WP:ARBCOM|Arbitration Committee]] is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration|Wikipedia arbitration process]]. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose [[WP:BAN|site bans]], [[WP:TBAN|topic bans]], editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Policy|arbitration policy]] describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
-=== The Siege of Gaza City Belligerents ===
+If you wish to participate in the 2024 election, please review [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2024/Candidates|the candidates]] and submit your choices on the '''[[Special:SecurePoll/vote/{{Arbitration Committee candidate/data|2024|poll}}|voting page]]'''.  If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add {{tlx|NoACEMM}} to your user talk page. <small>[[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|talk]]) 00:54, 19 November 2024 (UTC)</small>
-: Regarding what you said on the [[Siege of Gaza City]] talk page. I am messaging here partly because things often get archived to quickly on talk pages.
-::: '''My Comment from [[Talk:Siege_of_Gaza_City#Inclusion_of_al-Aqsa_Martyrs%27_Brigades_and_National_Resistance_Brigades_as_belligerents | Inclusion of al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades and National Resistance Brigades as belligerents]]'''
-::: I agree it should include all the groups involved, but that needs citations?
-::: [[al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades]] are only in the West Bank, as far as i know? Do you have a reference for them being involved in Gaza? They might be doing something in the West Bank in support, but that doesn't really count as belligerents in the siege itself. Do you have a citation for them doing the attack in [[Nasser, Gaza|al Nasr]]?
-::: Kita2b Abu Ali [[PFLP]] are definitely involved. They are constantly announcing that they are shelling the neighboring settlements in retaliation, a bizarre thing to claim if they are not? and one of the refugee camp airstrikes even seemed to be aimed at one of them
-::: I think the national resistance brigades [[DFLP]] were in 7 October attacks so probably are too.
-::: [[User:Irtapil|Irtapil]] ([[User talk:Irtapil|talk]]) 17:03, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
-: I definitely agree the other groups should be included, but it needs citations, can you help find some?
-: I think the citations on the other articles refer to [[PFLP]] and [[DFLP]] involvement in 7 October?
-: I found a possible reference for the airstrike aimed at a PFLP leader, but it's in one of my literally hundreds of open tabs… somewhere.
-: Pretty much every battle or other endangerment says just Hamas too. Currently Kita2b Abu Ali seem to be just shooting from a distance, no idea what anyone else is or was doing? But everything just being Hamas seems unlikely and unrealistic.
-: [[User:Irtapil|Irtapil]] ([[User talk:Irtapil|talk]]) 17:50, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
-::Dear user @[[User:Irtapil|Irtapil]]:
-:: Appreciate your comments on my talk page. Was pleasantly surprised that all those notifications in my inbox weren't a result of me angering somebody but quite the opposite really. As for your concerns regarding Gaza militant groups:
-::'''[[Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades]]:''' It is a common misconception that this organization is only present in the West Bank. On the contrary, they are alive and well in the Gaza Strip. You can read [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/18/palestinian-authority-cracks-down-on-protests-over-israel-gaza-attacks here] to learn more about how they are now operating independently of [[Fatah]] and [[Mahmoud Abbas]] as of 2023. As for my sources that they are in Gaza fighting against the IDF, I've mainly been citing the reports of the [[Institute for the Study of War]], including on the talk page comment that you noticed (this is where my knowledge of the Al Nasr incident originates). I'd reference the group's own [[Telegram Messenger|Telegram]] channel if I could, where they regularly claim attacks within Gaza, but that would fail [[WP:RS]]. I've been on something of a crusade throughout talk pages to have this group's participation in Gaza recognized, with varying levels of success. Most often my requests get ignored. See: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2023_Hamas-led_attack_on_Israel/Archive_1#Add_Al-Aqsa_Martyrs%27_Brigades_to_belligerents_in_infobox 1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Al-Aqsa_Martyrs%27_Brigades#Participation_in_2023_Israel-Hamas_war 2] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2023_Israeli_invasion_of_the_Gaza_Strip#Inclusion_of_al-Aqsa_Martyrs'_Brigades_as_a_belligerent 3]
-::'''{{flag|Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine}}'s [[National Resistance Brigades]]:''' In the comment you responded to, I also reference the [[Institute for the Study of War]], who confirms the groups activities in combat in Gaza.
-::'''{{flag|Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine}}'s [[Abu Ali Mustafa Brigades]]:''' I am aware of the PFLP's continuing strikes on targets outside the Gaza Strip, but surprisingly after an extensive search I couldn't find any evidence that they had directly participated in combat operations within the Strip against the IDF unlike the other groups, who regularly claim ambushes and anti-tank strikes against Israeli vehicles and similar attacks. This may have changed since, as I've been less active since around mid-November.
-::Agree with you that most reporting, including here on Wikipedia, is oversimplified in terms of Hamas not fighting alone by any means. This undercoverage is what sparked my interest in the minor players. [[User:SaintPaulOfTarsus|SaintPaulOfTarsus]] ([[User talk:SaintPaulOfTarsus#top|talk]]) 05:16, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
-::: Are you on [[Mastodon (social network)|Mastodon]]? [[User:Irtapil|Irtapil]] ([[User talk:Irtapil|talk]]) 05:08, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
-::::Not currently on [[Mastodon]] but I hope to be at some point during the next year. [[User:SaintPaulOfTarsus|SaintPaulOfTarsus]] ([[User talk:SaintPaulOfTarsus#top|talk]]) 15:04, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
-:::::What's the delay? I'd offer an invite but i think the servers are currently mostly open to new members. [[User:Irtapil|Irtapil]] ([[User talk:Irtapil|talk]]) 05:32, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
-::::::[[WP:BUSYLIFE]].[[User:SaintPaulOfTarsus|SaintPaulOfTarsus]] ([[User talk:SaintPaulOfTarsus#top|talk]]) 05:46, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
+</div>
-::: The weirdest bit THE [[PFLP]] KILLED BIBI's BROTHER when he thwarted one of their plane hijackings… it now seems implausibly bizarre that Bibi is just over simplifying? He's doing more like [[Jacinda Ardern]] does with the [[Christchurch shooting| Christchurch shooter]]. But already it seems like not mention them is because a group of Marxists founded by a Christian clashes badly with "Hamas are ISIS". They're a small pay off the resistance, but it's still bizarre to ignore them completely. [[User:Irtapil|Irtapil]] ([[User talk:Irtapil|talk]]) 05:14, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
+</div>
+<!-- Message sent by User:Cyberpower678@enwiki using the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2024/Coordination/MM/09&oldid=1258243804 -->
-::: Do you have a link for the specific ISW paper or article? [[User:Irtapil|Irtapil]] ([[User talk:Irtapil|talk]]) 05:56, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
-::::Yes, I'll repost the articles I linked in the comment on the talk page. They're pretty lengthy articles so you can Ctrl-F "Martyrs" and "Democratic" to find the relevant sections.
-::::https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/iran-update-november-5-2023
-::::https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/iran-update-november-9-2023
-::::https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/iran-update-november-11-2023 [[User:SaintPaulOfTarsus|SaintPaulOfTarsus]] ([[User talk:SaintPaulOfTarsus#top|talk]]) 15:06, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
-::: I really don't know what to think about Al-Aqsa Martyrs and Fateh. There are contradictory claims and both sides of it have motives to distort it. To me it looks like an "arms-reach" / "plausible deniability" arrangement? Like the USA and (until a particular private jet crashed) Russia did with private military contractors? Or like Ukraine did with the pre-Wagner incident of Russians invading Russia, the RVC and the white-blue-white guys invaded Belgorod, and Ukrainian officials just said "they're Russian citizens" and such.
-::: But WHERE they are is much more definitive than that.
-::: Telegram channels don't just fail at RS, I think they'd probably count as "originally research"? I got told earlier today that an Arabic-English dictionary would count as such. But a lot of the telegram channels get quoted pretty much verbatim by TV stations and news sites, and those count as reliable secondary sources.
-::: e.g. Today, after two months of them seemingly yelling into the telegram void, Kitaeb Abu Ali rocket attack videos got republished by Al Jazeera - I think only their Egyptian channel - and a somewhat dubious-looking Qatar-based TV station whose content is full of 🔻 icons.
-::: The somewhat dubious looking channel is https://www.youtube.com/@AlarabyTv_News It seems to be a proper news network rather than just a YouTube channel https://www.alaraby.com/ but my impression is it would not be very reliable. It gives me the same vibe as Fox News in the USA, or Republic TV in India (if you're not famished with [[Republic]]
-::: I'm only seeing West Bank stuff for Kitā2b Al-Aqsa Matyrs? clashes in [[Jenin]], obituary from [[Qalandia Camp]], a battalion in [[Jalazone]]. They're in the war, but not in Gaza? But I've not looked that far.
-::: Huzzah! I think I found Al Nadi? … but I think it's a suburb in [[Jalazone]], in the West Bank, not the more well-mapped neighbourhood in Gaza City, there's also an Al-Nadi neighbourhood in Cairo, it seems to be a common name. "A military report issued by Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades - Jalazoun Camp … our fighters were able to target the occupation forces storming our camp land with a heavy barrage of bullets in the Al-Nadi neighborhood at 4:53, causing serious injuries among the soldiers." signed {{lang-ar| كتيبة الجلزون }} which the robot reckons is "Al-Jalazoun Battalion", I can tell that says "(something) of Jalazone" but I've never seen that word for battalion before. I should probably not trust the robot too much, and I cannot find a map of Jalazoun that shows neighbourhoods, but that sounds very much like the localised Camp Battalions in the West Bank.
-::: Al-Aqsa Matrys have quite flamboyantly religious rhetoric? Compared to them Al-Qassam sound like Richard Dawkins.
-::: [[User:Irtapil|Irtapil]] ([[User talk:Irtapil|talk]]) 05:56, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
-::::As for the [[al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades]]' operations in Gaza, in addition to the links in my previous comment above, please see these excerpts from more recent articles by the [[Institute for the Study of War]]:
-::::[https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/iran-update-november-13-2023 Iran Update, November 13]: Palestinian media reported that the '''al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades'''—the self-claimed militant wing of Fatah— fired mortars at the Israeli army in an unspecified location in the southern '''[[Gaza city]]''' axis.
-::::[https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/iran-update-november-13-2023 Iran Update, November 13]: An IDF combat team continued raids on the outskirts of '''[[Al-Shati refugee camp|al Shati Refugee Camp]]''', focusing on destroying military infrastructure in the heart of the civilian population including schools, universities, mosques, and homes. The '''al Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades''' artillery unit launched mortars at the Israeli army operating in the vicinity of the camp.
-::::[https://understandingwar.org/backgrounder/iran-update-november-15-2023 Iran Update, November 15]: The '''Al Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigade''' fired 60mm mortars at IDF armor and infantry near the al Maqousi area, west of '''[[Sheikh Radwan]]''' on November 15.
-::::[https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/iran-update-november-20-2023 Iran Update, November 20]: The '''al Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades'''—the self-proclaimed militant wing of Fatah—and al Quds Brigades conducted a combined operation attacking three Israeli armored vehicles and soldiers in the '''[[Sheikh Radwan]]''' area southwest of '''[[Jabalia refugee camp]]'''.
-::::[https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/iran-update-november-22-2023 Iran Update, November 22]: The '''al Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigade'''—a self-affiliated militant wing of Fatah—has conducted attacks on Israeli ground forces in the '''[[Gaza Strip]]''' and fired rockets into Israel.
-::::[https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/iran-update-december-6-2023 Iran Update, December 6]: The '''al Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigade'''—a self-affiliated militant wing of Fatah—claimed that its fighters targeted an Israeli tank with an anti-tank munition east of '''[[Khan Younis]]'''.
-::::Perhaps it is problematic for you that I'm only citing ISW articles. That would be fair, but I am not really sure what other reliable source is reporting on this level of detail on the Palestinian factions. As we've discussed, oversimplification to Hamas is prevalent. At least in English-language sources, that is. There would certainly be more evidence of the group's operations in Gaza from Arabic-language texts, but as a non-native I do not have the free time to try to look for that at the moment, though this will be in my near future, as I plan to significantly expand the Wikipedia article for the [[al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades]] after becoming extended-confirmed. For some reason, the article lists no meaningful activities after 2007.
-::::As for [ '''Katibat''' / '''كتيبة''' ] :
-::::Though not an Arabic speaker by any means, I can confirm to you that the machine's translation of [ '''كتيبة''' ] as "battalion" is correct here. My vast prior experience observing and researching the war in Syria, which bordered on the obsessive-compulsive, has made me intimately familiar with this word as it was very commonly used among militant organizations there. The word you're familiar with, [ '''kitā2b''' ] should be the plural form of this word, [ '''katibat''' ]. Why the singular form typically gets translated as "battalion" but the plural typically gets translated as "brigades" is beyond my knowledge. [[User:SaintPaulOfTarsus|SaintPaulOfTarsus]] ([[User talk:SaintPaulOfTarsus#top|talk]]) 15:52, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
-:::::sorry, i got interrupted / side tracked. [[User:Irtapil|Irtapil]] ([[User talk:Irtapil|talk]]) 21:09, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
-:::::This time I'll try to respond a bit at a time, instead of leaving a messy draft. I think the only thing I was planning to add was a proof read and some extra links.
-:::::I really don't know any English military terminology. I'm usually more interested in the politics than I am in the violent parts of international conflict. I still haven't got around to doing the homework I assigned myself of reading the pages for [[brigades]] and [[battalion]]  in English.
-:::::I have a very small and topical Arabic vocabulary, mainly location names, political terms, religious terms, and military terms. Which increasingly doesn't overlap with my English vocabulary.
-:::::From the Romanisations I've seen them use, it's كَتائب Kata2b not كِتائب Kita2b in Palestinian Arabic, but it's fairly likely that Syrian Arabic is different. (But, on the third hand, I keep accidentally pronouncing it with a كِ anyway because it is very similar to the word for Book in Urdu and Hindi, Kitab. I know a tiny amount of nearly a dozen languages, but not a useful amount of anything except English.)
-:::::As far as I can gather كتيبة seems to mean "camp guard", usually connected to a specific city / refugee camp, and كتائب  Kata2b / Kataeb is a multi regional milirary wing of a party. And if كتائب is the plural of كتيبة that makes a lot of sense, each Kitaeb has multiple local Kteebah constituents.
-:::::The ة suffix is derived from a ت but I never see it transliterated as T, unless that word is weird? And it's usually a suffix for feminine nouns, which might explain why "she" pops up in some bizarre places in machine translations?
-:::::Most of the the factions only have one كتائب - except the PFLP seems to have an offshoot? Unless that's a division of another PLO party and I'm just muddled?
-:::::Then there's Saraya Al Quds (probably misspelled there?) the word where another editor told me a dictionary was "original research".
-:::::I completely gave up on understanding the war in Syria, though I'm somewhat backtracking into it now. All I have got so far is that the Palestinians seem ideologically closest to the Kurdish Marxists, but historically close to the Syrian government, which currently means Assad Jr. … which seems fairly unpleasant, but that war really seems like a "there are no good guys" (even more than most wars are like that). Except possibly the Kurdish Marxists, but they're friends with the USA, but… as I say, last time I gave up.
-:::::Side track, there is a word which seems to mean female fighter that I'm wondering if you know anything about… but I'll get back to that later, on this device if I change tabs I lose what I'm writing.
-:::::[[User:Irtapil|Irtapil]] ([[User talk:Irtapil|talk]]) 08:06, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
-::::::* Allow me to preface everything I'm about to say with a disclaimer that I have no formal background in Arabic or linguistics whatsoever, and all my responses on those topics have no basis in anything except patterns I've observed over the span of approximately 6-7 years of on-and-off study of the Syrian and Iraqi wars. My Arabic vocabulary is likely even smaller than yours.
-::::::* I am fairly certain you are correct regarding the first "vowel" - it's كَتائب Kata2b rather than كِتائب Kita2b - and this is likely the case in Iraqi ([[Kata'ib Hezbollah]]), Lebanese ([[Kataeb Party]]), and Syrian dialects of Arabic. My use of Kita2b was based on your earlier use of Kita2b, meaning I was just too rusty to catch the subtle mistake.
-::::::* Fun fact: Kitab is also the word for book in Arabic. See [[ahl al-kitab]], the people of the book: a religious term collectively referring all followers of the Abrahamic religions: Muslims, Christians, and Jews.
-::::::* As for the ة suffix, I have seen it romanized as ''-at'' infrequently, and I've always preferred ''-ah'', but in the case of كتيبة I think ''katibat'' is probably a more common romanization than ''katibah'', which for some reason "just looks wrong." See the Syrian-Uzbek radical organizations [[Katibat al-Tawhid wal-Jihad]] and [[Katibat al-Imam al-Bukhari]].
-::::::* As for battalions and brigades, there's not much I have to say other that in my experience, a brigade typically consists of multiple battalions and never the other way around.
-::::::* In the Syrian context, سرايا saraya, in a technical sense, would refer to "companies," with its singular form being سرية sarayah. A company would typically be a quite small unit and multiple such units would form a battalion. A company would sometimes be associated with a particular weapon: for example, [[Hay'at Tahrir al-Sham]] would frequently ascribe the sniper operations on the front line to the "sniper company," anti-tank operations would have been attributed to the "anti-tank company," and so on. However, in other cases, the word would not have the traditional military implication of small, specialized sub-units and could refer to much larger groups; consider the [[Defense Companies (Syria)]], which used the word سرايا but whose manpower was estimated at over 50,000. An acquaintance in Aleppo told me to disregard the battalion/company/brigade paradigm in cases like these.
-::::::* Additionally, especially earlier in the insurgency stage of the war, I found that katibat كتيبة was used simply to refer to "a group of armed men," typically of a rather small size not comparable to the Western definition of battalion, which usually number at least several hundreds.
-::::::* Parts of rebel-held northern Syria are now under the control of Turkish-backed criminal organizations branding themselves as لواء, ''liwa'' meaning brigade, and فرقة ''firqa(h)'' or ''furqat'' meaning division, terms I have not seen in Palestine. The لواء are made up of كَتائب, many of which are basically the armed gangs loyal to the warlords, who are also rotated to perform front-line duties every now and then, and their sizes are variable. In some cases the word كتيبة has been applied to incredibly small groups of under ten men.
-::::::[[User:SaintPaulOfTarsus|SaintPaulOfTarsus]] ([[User talk:SaintPaulOfTarsus#top|talk]]) 08:44, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
-:::::::I think I sometimes see [[:ar: فرقة ]] which is also used for musicians. But not often. Sorry I am way behind on catching up with this. [[User:Irtapil|Irtapil]] ([[User talk:Irtapil|talk]]) 03:44, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
-=== Al-Ahli suspects… ===
-…and [[Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion]] kinda buries the lead, but i think i screwed up my attempt to fix that.  [[User:Irtapil|Irtapil]] ([[User talk:Irtapil|talk]]) 17:50, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
-=== Massacre of soldiers at Kerem Shalom crossing ===
-Can you help me fund some reliable references for a Massacre of soldiers at [[Kerem Shalom crossing]] on 7 October 2023? is there a wiki article for it? [[User:Irtapil|Irtapil]] ([[User talk:Irtapil|talk]]) 03:42, 17 December 2023 (UTC)