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This article is frightfully tendentious. Saying that the situation "was deliberately provoked by the government" absolves the Ukrainian kulaks, many of them Nazi sympathisers, of responsibility. In fact, it was they who provoked the government with their active and destructive resistance to the movement for collectivisation of agriculture. The claims of millions of dead people are Cold War propaganda of Nazi origin, grossly distorted and broadly absurd. [[User:Shorne|Shorne]] 22:25, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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== Holodomor ==
How come the kulaks could have been Nazi sympathisers in 1930??! Nazi movement got in power in 1933. Your post is pure nonsense. [[User:Cautious|Cautious]] 22:36, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
{{Moved discussion from|User talk:Manyareasexpert#Holodomor| [[User:Manyareasexpert|ManyAreasExpert]] ([[User talk:Manyareasexpert|talk]]) 20:14, 8 September 2024 (UTC)}}
Hi. I see you reverted my changes. The secondary source bringing the events into connection actually exists and it was mentioned as one of the reference but wasn't made the main thing (Timothy Snyder, "Covert Polish Missions Across the Soviet Ukrainian Border, 1928-1933", 2005). Would it be okay if I rework with making it more prominent and add the primary sources as additional justification, or should I not mention them at all? <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Krispe13|Krispe13]] ([[User talk:Krispe13#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Krispe13|contribs]]) 20:08, 8 September 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Greetings! I scrolled through Snyder and he has a chapter on the famine so adding him would be fine. I'm generally against adding something based on primary sources as the article is already pretty large by itself and we have lots of secondary sources covering the subject. So why use primary ones. [[User:Manyareasexpert|ManyAreasExpert]] ([[User talk:Manyareasexpert|talk]]) 20:19, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
::Declaring Holodomor a "natural event" that happened due to bad weather conditions rather than an intentional "clean up" of Ukrainian society is a popular propaganda point of those, who deny Holodomor as a genocide based on the assumed lack of intention. Thus, I considered it important to also include the primary sources (such as the "Report to the Seventeenth Party Congress", which states that Ukrainian nationalism became the "chief danger" since it "linked up with the interventionists") that support the claim about the relationships between Prometheus/"Polish agents" activities and Holodomor established by Snyder and several other Ukrainian researches. But I will follow your suggestion and will only stick to the secondary sources. [[User:Krispe13|Krispe13]] ([[User talk:Krispe13|talk]]) 08:56, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
:::There is already some info on attack on nationalism in the article, which could be extended. [[User:Manyareasexpert|ManyAreasExpert]] ([[User talk:Manyareasexpert|talk]]) 09:17, 14 September 2024 (UTC)


== History section ==
:So the Nazis didn't even exist until the day they came to power? [[User:Shorne|Shorne]] 00:31, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)


History section is a mess. It has Scope and duration subsection (is it history?), Causes (same?), Death toll, Cannibalism? How to organize it better? I moved the last one down below meanwhile per the attention given to it by RSs. [[User:Manyareasexpert|ManyAreasExpert]] ([[User talk:Manyareasexpert|talk]]) 20:25, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
::They existed in Germany. [[User:Cautious|Cautious]] 14:29, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)


== Semi-protected edit request on 23 November 2024 ==
== Partially edited ==


{{Edit semi-protected|Holodomor|answered=yes}}
I have revised part of the article for NPOV. Much work remains to be done before this article can be acceptable.
The term Holodomor (death by hunger, in Ukrainian) refers to the starvation of millions of Ukrainians in 1932–33 as a result of Soviet policies. The Holodomor can be seen as the culmination of an assault by the Communist Party and Soviet state on the Ukrainian peasantry, who resisted Soviet policies. This assault occurred in the context of a campaign of intimidation and arrests of Ukrainian intellectuals, writers, artists, religious leaders, and political cadres, who were seen as a threat to Soviet ideological and state-building aspirations. [[Special:Contributions/2A02:A31D:A19C:F000:2D37:491E:AD61:4711|2A02:A31D:A19C:F000:2D37:491E:AD61:4711]] ([[User talk:2A02:A31D:A19C:F000:2D37:491E:AD61:4711|talk]]) 19:39, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

:{{Not done}}: please provide [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable sources]] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> ⸺([[User talk:Randomstaplers|'''Random''']])[[User:Randomstaplers|staplers]] 20:18, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
I wish to see citations of the Stalinist officials purported to have said that millions died. As far as I know, Stalin's government admitted no such thing. I shall be forced to delete the quotations if they are not attributed. [[User:Shorne|Shorne]] 16:39, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Someone reverted an entire batch of changes, evidently without even looking at them, on the grounds that they were made by a "holocaust denier". This is nonsense. The page is hopelessly POV and inaccurate. [[User:Shorne|Shorne]] 22:51, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I agree with you that the version [[User:Xed]] is reverting to is written from a strong POV, and the last paragraph of it definitely needs to be cited. Try to work a little more balance into your own version, though, and understand that Wikipedia has a characteristically low tolerance for leftist viewpoints that isn't always easy to overcome. For example, do you dispute that there was a famine at all (your version says "famine said to have occurred"), or just that it was as severe as often reported and that it was deliberately designed for political purposes? [[User:Everyking|Everyking]] 12:35, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I think Everyking is right here. "Famine said to have occurred" is ridiculous - of course a famine occurred. On the other hand, the other version says straight out that the famine was deliberately manufactured by the government, which is not undisputed...someone who knows more about the historiography of this than me needs to have a look over of this. [[User:John Kenney|john]] [[User_talk:John Kenney|k]] 15:12, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

::Thanks to both of you for your very reasonable comments. In fact, I am not trying to deny the famine, or even to minimise it. My primary concern is that a grossly POV article that doesn't even pretend to present more than one side not be allowed to stand.

::I'm not deeply attached to "famine said to have occurred", and I agree that it may be slightly slanted towards a minority position. At a minimum, it seems like an overzealous attempt at NPOV. I will change it. "Holocaust", incidentally is similarly slanted; indeed, it is far worse. The word is heavily laden with Hitlerian associations, and its use in connexion with a famine seems to trivialise the Nazi holocaust.

::I can accept Everyking's point "that Wikipedia has a characteristically low tolerance for leftist viewpoints". All the more reason to ensure that such viewpoints are represented fairly. A low tolerance for leftist viewpoints means a tendency towards a rightist POV. [[User:Shorne|Shorne]] 20:06, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

== Plagiarism ==

It turns out that the propaganda piece was plagiarised. Another testament to the integrity of our friendly neighbourhood propagandists. [[User:Shorne|Shorne]] 00:33, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

----

The title of this article is inappropriate. Firstly "Holodomor" is a Ukrainian word which means nothing to most readers. Wikipedia articles should have English titles wherever possible. In any case the famine was not confined to Ukraine, and the article should have a title which reflects its scope correctly. Really this subject should be discussed under [[History of the Soviet Union]]. If there is to be a separate article it should be called [[Soviet collectivization famine]] or something similar, and [[Holodomor]] should redirect to it. This is quite apart from the issue of the article's copyright status and the issues raised Shorne's absurd and disgraceful editing.
: I second the concern about the name. But the wider topic of the famine doesn't preclude a specific article about famine in Ukraine. By the way, "holodomor" is simply Ukrainian for "famine", and there is no compelling reason to put it as title. [[User:Mikkalai|Mikkalai]] 08:06, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I don't see any point in a separate article about the famine in Ukraine as opposed to the famine in parts of Russia. The famine affected the peasantry as a class, Russian and Ukrainian alike, not the Ukrainians as a nation - there was plenty of food in Kiev and the Donbas. [[User:Adam Carr|Adam]] 14:49, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

== Restoring article ==

I'm restoring this as an article, not so much about the famine or collectivization, but about the concept of ''Holodomor'' and surrounding debate. This is a related sub-topic of Soviet collectivization, but not a synonym for it. The intent is to explain the usage of the word, identify the controversy, and point to the relevant WP articles for more information.

Please have a look, add links, and edit for NPOV. Particularly, by eliminating weasel words if it can be done without offending people ("''many'' maintain that...", etc.). This is a loaded topic for virtually anyone who knows anything about it. So in the short term, I intend to identify the controversy, but not explain it in detail, and definitely not enter into it. I specifically suggest that we avoid evaluating the relative merits of the arguments for either side of the debate, to avoid a huge discussion and edit war here.

You're welcome to tell me that I'm crazy to do this. ''&mdash;[[User:Mzajac |Michael]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mzajac |Z.]]&nbsp;<small>2005-02-9&nbsp;19:18&nbsp;Z</small>''

172, I've explained why I think this deserves an article. You could at least post something here before reverting without comment. ''&mdash;[[User:Mzajac |Michael]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mzajac |Z.]]&nbsp;<small>2005-02-9&nbsp;21:29&nbsp;Z</small>''

See [[User:Adam Carr]]'s comments above. The famine affected Russian and Ukrainian peasants alike, not the Ukrainians as a nation. To treat this subject as a national terror-famine in [[Holodomor]] actually ''minimizes'' the impact, as opposed to treating it in its proper context in [[Collectivisation in the USSR|collectivization in the USSR]]. Stop undoing the redirect. [[User:172|172]] 21:30, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

: This doesn't treat the subject as a national terror-famine. It treats it as a point of historical debate, and points the reader to the the collectivization article for the facts behind the famine. Think of it as a topic in historiography. ''&mdash;[[User:Mzajac |Michael]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mzajac |Z.]]&nbsp;<small>2005-02-9&nbsp;21:56&nbsp;Z</small>''
::Historiography is treated in the article to which this page should be redirected. Also noticed that there is no separate entry on [[Shoah]], which is instead redirected to the English term [[Holocaust]]. I intend to redirect this article again in another 24 hrs or so. [[User:172|172]] 00:27, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

::: ''Shoah'' and ''Holocaust'' refer to the same thing, don't they? But ''Shoah'' doesn't redirect to ''World War II''. Your patience is appreciated. ''&mdash;[[User:Mzajac |Michael]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mzajac |Z.]]&nbsp;<small>2005-02-10&nbsp;00:46&nbsp;Z</small>''
::::The term is a Ukrainian word that means nothing to most readers on the English Wikipedia. Notice that the word only comes up twice in a search on Jstor [http://www.jstor.org/search/Results?mo=bs&si=1&hp=25&Query=Holodomor&Search=Search] The article on collectivization in the USSR mentions the Ukrainian term, and that is sufficient. [[User:172|172]] 00:53, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

== Famines ==

Some time ago without much thought I threw some info into [[Famine]] article, that had sections by country. Now I see it will be far better visible and usable as a separate one: [[Famines in Russia and USSR]]. [[User:Mikkalai|Mikkalai]] 23:38, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

==Terms versus things==

Since John Kenney and Mikkalai have both made this edit, let me spell out my objection. We are writing an encyclopedia article about a thing, not a word. It should answer the question, &ldquo;What is the Holodomor?&rdquo;, and not the question &ldquo;What is the word &lsquo;Holodomor&rsquo;?&rdquo;. The formula &ldquo;''Word'' is a term for&rdquo; is redundant. That is what a word is. In this situation, the fact that we state that the Holodomor was the 1932-3 famine in Ukraine indicates that, in our judgement, &lsquo;Holodomor&rsquo; is a term for the famine. The formula, which properly requires quotation marks or italics, would produce such openings as:<BR>
&mdash; &lsquo;Franklin Delano Roosevelt&rsquo; was the full given name of the thirty-second president<BR>
rather than<BR>
&mdash; Franklin Delano Roosevelt was the thirty-second president<BR>
and<BR>
&mdash; &lsquo;China&rsquo; is the English word for a country in eastern Asia<BR>
rather than<BR>
&mdash; China is a country in eastern Asia<BR>
Persons who read our encyclopedia are already expecting that we are going to tell them what the big, bold word at the top is a term for. The whole article is our explanation of what the word is a term for, and we do not need to walk them through it. <BR>&mdash; [[User:Ford|Ford]] 17:51, 2005 Feb 11 (UTC)

: Good points. But does the article still recognize or satisfy the concerns of users who feel that: "To treat this subject as a national terror-famine in Holodomor actually minimizes the impact, as opposed to treating it in its proper context in collectivization in the USSR"? ''&mdash;[[User:Mzajac |Michael]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mzajac |Z.]]&nbsp;<small>2005-02-11&nbsp;18:23&nbsp;Z</small>''
:Yes, the points are good. But please read the article carefully. It is a about the '''term''', not about the event. Please keep in mind that articles about terms are perfectly legitimate in wikipedia, provided that the artcle is more than a dicdef.
:I am going to write an article about the actual famine, as a continuation of my [[Famines in Russia and USSR]].
:Also, I find it correct to split the discussion of the event itself and of the politically loaded term (which popped up fairly recently, AFAIK (I am speaking about the usage of the word worldwide)). [[User:Mikkalai|Mikkalai]] 19:46, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
:The case of Rooselevt is not exactly applicable. Here is an example from my recent wikiwork. [[Bro]]: ''The common colloquial word bro, short for 'brother', describes a close friend, comrade, or pal.'' The article is about a '''word''' and its usage, just like "holodomor". [[User:Mikkalai|Mikkalai]] 19:55, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I ''did'' read the article carefully, Mikkalai. The first paragraph, even ''with'' your edits, was still mostly about the famine. The second and third paragraphs were mostly about the famine and just partially about the controversy of the term. It ''is'' an article about the famine. Articles about terms are valid, but this is not one of them. And what it should not be is a set-up for your promised article on the actual famine.<BR>&mdash; [[User:Ford|Ford]] 20:08, 2005 Feb 11 (UTC)


== Etymology ==

I always assumed the word came from "holodo-", ''pertaining to famine'', and "mor", from the French or Latin "mort", ''death''. Anyone know if that's correct? ''&mdash;[[User:Mzajac |Michael]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mzajac |Z.]]&nbsp;<small>2005-02-11&nbsp;19:51&nbsp;Z</small>''
:''Mor'' is an old East Slavic word to describe (1) massive nonviolent deaths, like in [[epidemy]] and also (2) (seemingly nonviolent) actions that cause such deaths. Of direct relevance to the "holodomor" word is the [[cliche]] "morit' golodom", i.e., make someone to die by depriving them of food, i.e., "holodomor" is actually a correctly constructed noun for this [[verb phrase]]. [[User:Mikkalai|Mikkalai]] 19:59, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
:As for the origin of the word "mor", since it concerns the very basic issue of death, I would guess, it is of common [[Indo-European]] roots, but I may be wrong. [[User:Mikkalai|Mikkalai]] 20:10, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 20:18, 23 November 2024

Holodomor

[edit]
Moved from User talk:Manyareasexpert § Holodomor
 – ManyAreasExpert (talk) 20:14, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I see you reverted my changes. The secondary source bringing the events into connection actually exists and it was mentioned as one of the reference but wasn't made the main thing (Timothy Snyder, "Covert Polish Missions Across the Soviet Ukrainian Border, 1928-1933", 2005). Would it be okay if I rework with making it more prominent and add the primary sources as additional justification, or should I not mention them at all? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Krispe13 (talk • contribs) 20:08, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Greetings! I scrolled through Snyder and he has a chapter on the famine so adding him would be fine. I'm generally against adding something based on primary sources as the article is already pretty large by itself and we have lots of secondary sources covering the subject. So why use primary ones. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 20:19, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Declaring Holodomor a "natural event" that happened due to bad weather conditions rather than an intentional "clean up" of Ukrainian society is a popular propaganda point of those, who deny Holodomor as a genocide based on the assumed lack of intention. Thus, I considered it important to also include the primary sources (such as the "Report to the Seventeenth Party Congress", which states that Ukrainian nationalism became the "chief danger" since it "linked up with the interventionists") that support the claim about the relationships between Prometheus/"Polish agents" activities and Holodomor established by Snyder and several other Ukrainian researches. But I will follow your suggestion and will only stick to the secondary sources. Krispe13 (talk) 08:56, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is already some info on attack on nationalism in the article, which could be extended. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 09:17, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

History section

[edit]

History section is a mess. It has Scope and duration subsection (is it history?), Causes (same?), Death toll, Cannibalism? How to organize it better? I moved the last one down below meanwhile per the attention given to it by RSs. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 20:25, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 23 November 2024

[edit]

The term Holodomor (death by hunger, in Ukrainian) refers to the starvation of millions of Ukrainians in 1932–33 as a result of Soviet policies. The Holodomor can be seen as the culmination of an assault by the Communist Party and Soviet state on the Ukrainian peasantry, who resisted Soviet policies. This assault occurred in the context of a campaign of intimidation and arrests of Ukrainian intellectuals, writers, artists, religious leaders, and political cadres, who were seen as a threat to Soviet ideological and state-building aspirations. 2A02:A31D:A19C:F000:2D37:491E:AD61:4711 (talk) 19:39, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ⸺(Random)staplers 20:18, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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