Talk:Grand Slam (professional wrestling): Difference between revisions
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{{old XfD multi |date=21 February 2007 |page=Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Grand Slam Championship |result='''no consensus'''}} |
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| width="48px" | [[Image:Evolution-tasks2.png|35px|Articles for deletion]] || This article was nominated for [[Wikipedia:Deletion policy|deletion]] {{#if:21/02/2007|on 21/02/2007|recently}}. The result of [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/{{{page|Grand Slam Championship}}}|the discussion]] was {{{result|'''no consensus'''}}}. |
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== Multiple Grand Slams? == |
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== Shouldn't the World Heavyweight Title count? == |
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For the WWE (modern) and TNA Grand Slam listings, is there a better way to list the dates of the 2nd Grand Slam? For example, maybe list the dates and reigns that compose of the second reign as Grand Slam? [[User:Retched|retched]] ([[User talk:Retched|talk]]) 19:43, 13 April 2021 (UTC) |
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In 2006, World Wrestling Entertainment stated, "Michaels was the first-ever Grand Slam Champion, capturing the European Championship once, the World Tag Team Championship four times, the Intercontinental Championship three times and the WWE and World Heavyweight Championships a total of four times." This indicates that WWE considers the World Heavyweight Championship to be an acceptable substitute for the WWF Championship (renamed the WWE Championship in 2002) in completing the Grand Slam. This, also from what i can find, the WWE have never actually stated that the WHC didnt count while it was being used in WWE. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2A00:23C5:2C0B:F00:552B:86DB:AF0A:206F|2A00:23C5:2C0B:F00:552B:86DB:AF0A:206F]] ([[User talk:2A00:23C5:2C0B:F00:552B:86DB:AF0A:206F#top|talk]]) 23:30, 27 April 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:Source? - '''''[[User:Galatz|<span style="color: #000080">Galatz</span>]][[User_talk:Galatz|<span style="color: #FF0000"><sup>Talk</sup></span>]]''''' 23:30, 29 April 2018 (UTC) |
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::That source is already included when we describe the original format. We include WHC reigns for that format, just not the current format.[[User:LM2000|LM2000]] ([[User talk:LM2000|talk]]) 03:46, 30 April 2018 (UTC) |
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:::Should Benoit then be included in the "Original Format"? <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:SKShoes|SKShoes]] ([[User talk:SKShoes#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/SKShoes|contribs]]) 04:36, 15 August 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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::::No. Benoit would've needed a Hardcore or European Championship reign under the original format and the WHC doesn't count for the new format.[[User:LM2000|LM2000]] ([[User talk:LM2000|talk]]) 04:41, 15 August 2018 (UTC) |
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Just in case it wasn't already obvious, WWE very clearly announced [[Rey Mysterio]] and [[Dolph Ziggler]] as only a Triple Crown Champion at [[Crown Jewel (2018)|Crown Jewel]] earlier. [[User:MarioFan78|MarioFan78]] ([[User talk:MarioFan78|talk]]) 03:58, November 3, 2018 (UTC) |
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== |
== Bret Hart == |
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Bret Hart is a Grand Slam Champion too. He won the WWE Title, the tag titles, the IC title and the US title. [[Special:Contributions/89.204.130.246|89.204.130.246]] ([[User talk:89.204.130.246|talk]]) 09:24, 24 July 2021 (UTC) |
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: So WWE does not recognize WCW-owned reigns of the championships when counting for the WWE Grand Slam Championship. However, the argument does make sense as the lineages for both titles DO line up. (WWE recognizes the US title as starting back in the NWA era through the end of the WCW/Turner era.) Nonetheless, WWE didn't update their original list (nor the revised list) to include any WCW title reign which is what matters most. [[User:Retched|retched]] ([[User talk:Retched|talk]]) 13:43, 24 July 2021 (UTC) |
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== |
== WCW? == |
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Why isn't there a WCW section? [[Special:Contributions/2600:387:C:6A14:0:0:0:2|2600:387:C:6A14:0:0:0:2]] ([[User talk:2600:387:C:6A14:0:0:0:2|talk]]) 18:10, 14 May 2022 (UTC) |
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Sheamus won the WWE Championship, Intercontinental Championship, United States Championship, and both Raw and Smack Down Tag team Championships. These are all the major titles needed to be Grand slam Champion under modern rule. So why is he not listed one? Am sure WWE officially considers him as Grand Slam Champion. [[User:Dilbaggg|Dilbaggg]] ([[User talk:Dilbaggg|talk]]) 15:36, 1 May 2019 (UTC) |
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:Because WCW never defined a Grand Slam criteria before they went under. Sure, the idea of using [[Triple Crown (professional wrestling)#World Championship Wrestling|their Triple Crown]] (World, US, and Tag titles) with the addition of the TV title seems plausible, but a) since they never declared it as such, we cannot say it was, and b) the TV title was abandoned well before the company folded, so it's clear they didn't really care much about it themselves. But mostly a). We can't introduce something that didn't actually exist. [[User:Oknazevad|oknazevad]] ([[User talk:Oknazevad|talk]]) 23:26, 14 May 2022 (UTC) |
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:{{yo|Dilbaggg}} When did he win Intercontinental? - '''''[[User:Galatz|<span style="color: #000080">Galatz גאליץ</span>]][[User_talk:Galatz|<span style="color: #FF0000"><sup>שיחה Talk</sup></span>]]''''' 15:46, 1 May 2019 (UTC) |
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== bret won the wwe US title as well == |
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Oops my mistake. Wrote the same thing in Sheamus's article talk page. No need to respond there either. [[User:Dilbaggg|Dilbaggg]] ([[User talk:Dilbaggg|talk]]) 17:48, 1 May 2019 (UTC) |
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bret hart being a grand slam champions was brought up and the reason for not adding him was that wwe doesn't count wcw US titles but bret won the wwe US title back in 2009 or so |
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== Bayley - Women's Grand Slam == |
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so he's part of the new grand slam format [[Special:Contributions/2607:FEA8:BF1D:7700:FCE1:6CF3:6193:3D0|2607:FEA8:BF1D:7700:FCE1:6CF3:6193:3D0]] ([[User talk:2607:FEA8:BF1D:7700:FCE1:6CF3:6193:3D0|talk]]) 18:37, 6 September 2022 (UTC) |
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[http://www.twitter.com/WWE/status/1130998315561000961 Would this be evidence that WWE has established a Women's Grand Slam (Raw, SD, NXT, Women's Tag)?] |
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:No. As I stated above, Bret won the WCW United States States Championship. WWE only counts title reigns that were started during the WWE's ownership of WCW and onward as part of the Grand Slam. While the histories are the same, that qualifier makes it not a part of the WWE Grand Slam. [[User:Retched|retched]] ([[User talk:Retched|talk]]) 18:43, 6 September 2022 (UTC) |
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Just askin'. |
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== Rhea Ripley Grand Slam note == |
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[[User:Vjmlhds|Vjmlhds]] [[user talk:Vjmlhds|(talk)]] 05:04, 22 May 2019 (UTC) |
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:During the Survivor Series 2017 pre-show Charlotte called herself a Grand Slam champion (Raw, SD, NXT and Diva). That was not included, but this being written and published on their twitter is slightly better. It definitely meets the first 4 criteria in [[WP:TWITTER]], but if it is the sole basis for inclusion, so I would think #5 would come into play. Its not an article, but its the sole basis for the entire sections inclusion. #5 is moot however because we have [[WP:SECONDARY]] sources mentioning it too [https://nypost.com/2019/05/20/wwe-made-up-for-years-of-bayley-missteps-with-one-spectacular-night/] [https://www.ibtimes.com/wwe-money-bank-lesnars-shock-appearance-bayley-wins-grand-slam-2793281] [https://www.cbssports.com/wwe/news/2019-wwe-money-in-the-bank-results-recap-grades-shocking-returns-and-title-changes-steal-show/] - '''''[[User:Galatz|<span style="color: #000080">Galatz גאליץ</span>]][[User_talk:Galatz|<span style="color: #FF0000"><sup>שיחה Talk</sup></span>]]''''' 13:24, 22 May 2019 (UTC) |
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In addition to Rhea Ripley becoming the 5th female to become a grand slam champion in WWE joining Askua Sasha Banks Charlotte Flair and Bayley and doing it the fastest. Rhea Ripley is also the first wrestler in history to conquer the female titles of RAW, SmackDown, NXT and NXT UK with the exception of the NXT Womens Tag Team Championship. - [[Special:Contributions/2A02:C7C:53C1:E00:6D68:BFEC:AC91:7F55|2A02:C7C:53C1:E00:6D68:BFEC:AC91:7F55]] ([[User talk:2A02:C7C:53C1:E00:6D68:BFEC:AC91:7F55|talk]]) 11:51, 2 April 2023 (UTC) |
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::{{u|Galatz}} So if this is good to go, then someone (who is much better at making a chart than I am) can make a section/chart to acknowledge Bayley. Also, if she's a Slam winner, then the Triple Crown stuff is a moot point an not worth fussing over. [[User:Vjmlhds|Vjmlhds]] [[user talk:Vjmlhds|(talk)]] 13:49, 22 May 2019 (UTC) |
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:::Done, but someone else feel free to edit any of the color changes I made to make room for adding NXT (thought the gold and yellow were too close), or other format changes. - '''''[[User:Galatz|<span style="color: #000080">Galatz גאליץ</span>]][[User_talk:Galatz|<span style="color: #FF0000"><sup>שיחה Talk</sup></span>]]''''' 14:11, 22 May 2019 (UTC) |
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== Split proposal == |
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I know I'm just a simple anon, but if the "grand slam" is going to be recognized so should be the Triple Crown. (I'd actually argue against the Grand Slam as the NXT isn't a tertiary title, but the primary title of the minor brand, and they have their own version of the men's triple crown, already established. Including the NXT title in WWE accolades could get dicey if nxt women's tag titles ever get introduced and you have NXT and NXT UK titles you could group for a women's nxt triple crown...but I digress.) |
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I proposed that the section about WWE Grand Slam winners be split into a separate page called [[List of WWE Grand Slam winners]] because the section is too long. -[[User:St3095|<span style="color:#0073CF">'''St3095'''</span>]] [[User talk:St3095|<span style="color:#007FCF"><sup>(?)</sup></span>]] 04:34, 10 April 2023 (UTC) |
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:I don't think it's too long per se. The question is, I suppose, if you remove the WWE Grand Slam stuff, is the other Grand Slams notable on their own? '''[[User:Lee Vilenski|<span style="color:green">Lee Vilenski</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Lee Vilenski|talk]] • [[Special:Contribs/Lee Vilenski|contribs]])</sup>''' 08:32, 10 April 2023 (UTC) |
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The triple crown is the step prior to the grand slam, historically they formed by having three (triple crown) then four (grand slam) available titles. |
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::'''Oppose''' Article is about wrestling Grand Slams. If you take out WWE, then it would open up Pandora's Box for people to want the other Slams to have their own page. Let sleeping dogs lie. [[user:Vjmlhds|Vjmlhds]] [[user talk:Vjmlhds|(talk)]] 02:45, 13 May 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' Unnecessary content forking. --[[User:Mann Mann|Mann Mann]] ([[User talk:Mann Mann|talk]]) 09:35, 13 May 2023 (UTC) |
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Becky Lynch never won the NXT title, so if she wins the tag titles she would be a triple crown winner, but Bayley will still have done it first. Also, I think the Cathy Kelley stating in a press release that Bayley is the first female triple crown winner should hold more weight than a Grand Slam Champ tweet. |
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== It seems unfair to not include Dolph Ziggler (Nick Nemeth) as a Grand Slam Champion == |
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Thank you for your time and consideration. |
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:Firstly being an IP editor or registered user makes no difference. Second as to your points, Wikipedia is built based on [[WP:RS]] abd [[WP:SECONDARY]] sources are extremely important. I have provided three sources here that are unrelated to the WWE which state this is a grand slam, in addition to the WWE tweet. The WWE twitter account holds more weight than what Cathy Kelly states back stage, I am not sure what press release you are referring to, because as far as I am aware a backstage comment is not a press release. I provided a link to Charlotte claiming Diva, Raw and SmackDown makes a triple crown, but we have nothing other than that stating it. The Triple Crown and Grand Slam must be achieved independently, its not a one than another. - '''''[[User:Galatz|<span style="color: #000080">Galatz גאליץ</span>]][[User_talk:Galatz|<span style="color: #FF0000"><sup>שיחה Talk</sup></span>]]''''' 16:44, 22 May 2019 (UTC) |
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:Oh and as for the term Tertiary being used, it is open to other suggestions. One of the definitions from [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tertiary webster] is {{tq|of, relating to, or being higher education}}, being as NXT is the WWE equivalent of "higher education" I felt it was appropriate, but we could always just make it 3 singles and tag. Its always wikipedia policy to wait to add things, its better to be missing something than risk having something wrong included. - '''''[[User:Galatz|<span style="color: #000080">Galatz גאליץ</span>]][[User_talk:Galatz|<span style="color: #FF0000"><sup>שיחה Talk</sup></span>]]''''' 16:54, 22 May 2019 (UTC) |
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I can only assume the rationale here is that Ziggler "only" won the World Heavyweight Title ("the Big Gold Belt") to go along with his various tag-team, IC, and US title reigns. But that title (with a history stretching back over 100 years) was considered co-equal to the WWF/WWE title (now merged with the Universal title and referred to, IMO inelegantly, as the "WWE Undisputed Universal Championship") and it was NOT discontinued in 2013; it was UNIFIED with the WWE title. |
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Alright, press release wasn't a good term...but WWE also tweeted the same video |
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Its history should count towards the Grand Slam and Ziggler should be recognized as a Grand Slam Champion. It seems unfair to consider Christian (who likewise won this title but not the WWF/WWE title) a Grand Slam Champion because he qualified under the old rules (winning a tertiary championship), but exclude Ziggler. And it IMO unfairly disadvantages Jack Swagger (Jake Hager), who is only 42 years old and still an active wrester, to say that he can't be considered a Triple Crown Champion (should he return to WWE and win a Tag-Team Championship to go with his World Heavyweight and U.S. Title reigns) or a Grand Slam (should Swagger also win the Intercontinental Championship) winner. |
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(Mark Hardy would also be subject to such a disadvantage, but he has retired.) |
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https://mobile.twitter.com/WWE/status/1130329317718650881 |
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I realize that WWE has their own standards, but IMO general recognition for Ziggler would put pressure on them to remedy this error. Thoughts? [[Special:Contributions/2600:1700:F070:AB10:214C:9205:4018:90B6|2600:1700:F070:AB10:214C:9205:4018:90B6]] ([[User talk:2600:1700:F070:AB10:214C:9205:4018:90B6|talk]]) 18:49, 23 June 2024 (UTC) |
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And here is a secondary source |
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:We don't make up our own rules and definitions. Is it unfair? Maybe. Do we care? Absolutely not. WWE doesn't list him as a grand slam champion, so we don't either. Period. [[User:Oknazevad|oknazevad]] ([[User talk:Oknazevad|talk]]) 03:20, 24 June 2024 (UTC) |
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https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/5-things-you-missed-at-money-in-the-bank-2019/ss-AABBbRp#image=3 |
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:WWE often has these videos which aren't really in the WWE Universe (the odd aspect of professional wrestling where its the fine line between a sport or a TV show). The example I gave about Charlotte and the women saying they are in the Royal Rumble last year, all appears in their videos but did not apply to the reality of their shows. (I am using these two since both involved previous discussions on WP.) Due to this their backstage WWE.com videos fail under [[WP:VIDEOREF]]. Sportskeeda is unfortunately not a RS under [[WP:PW/RS]]. I have looked and cannot find anything other than them (which the MSN link is) to mention it. If you have something from a RS that discusses it, that is very different. - '''''[[User:Galatz|<span style="color: #000080">Galatz גאליץ</span>]][[User_talk:Galatz|<span style="color: #FF0000"><sup>שיחה Talk</sup></span>]]''''' 17:07, 22 May 2019 (UTC) |
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== The WWE Women’s grand slam needs a revised version like the men == |
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I’ve noticed some back and forth edits from Vjmlhds and JDC808 about the NXT Women’s Championship being the secondary/tertiary singles championship for the women’s Grand Slam. It makes no sense for the women’s Triple Crown and Grand Slam format to be the exact same format. That’s just a Triple Crown. Triple Crown and Grand Slam are two different things to accomplish. [[User:Drummoe|Drummoe]] ([[User talk:Drummoe|talk]]) 08:13, 4 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:Well, JDC is right. No source includes the NXT titles as part of the grand slam. I made a quick research in WWE.com [https://www.wwe.com/article/superstar-of-the-week] but the text says " the victory also made Bayley the first Superstar to ever hold the Raw Women’s Championship, the SmackDown Women’s Championship and the WWE Women’s Tag Team Championship — the Women’s Grand Slam, if you will." Wrestlers always make claims during their promos, but it's necessary being recognized by the promotion. --[[User:HHH Pedrigree|HHH Pedrigree]] ([[User talk:HHH Pedrigree|talk]]) 14:58, 4 June 2019 (UTC) |
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Ok so the Women’s grand slam in wwe is changing with the introduction of both the WWE Womens United States and Intercontinental Championships. So there needs to be a revised version of the women’s grand slam section, it’s unclear at the time if the nxt women’s and nxt women’s North American championships will be included into the new revised women’s grand slam as the NXT women’s championship was only included in the grand slam because the women didn’t have a mid-card title to go for at the time [[User:S7Nightmare|S7Nightmare]] ([[User talk:S7Nightmare|talk]]) 03:18, 26 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::{{ping|Drummoe}} You're right that it doesn't make sense, but that's what WWE's sources say. WWE have confirmed that both the Triple Crown and Grand Slam are those three titles, but have not included any other in their recognition for the Grand Slam. We may actually be wrong in saying the women's Grand Slam is an actual accomplishment (all we have to go on are a Tweet from WWE that says Bayley is a Grand Slam winner but fails to acknowledge which titles, and the WWE.com source that I provided and {{u|HHH Pedrigree}} quoted where it says "the Women's Grand Slam, ''if you will''"). The thing is though, and {{u|Vjmlhds}} seems to not understand this, it's not for us to decide that the NXT Women's Championship is included in the Grand Slam when the WWE themselves have yet to acknowledge or confirm its inclusion. --[[User:JDC808|<span style="color: green;">JDC808</span>]] [[User talk:JDC808|<span style="color: black;">♫</span>]] 01:25, 5 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:::So are we basically making the decision for WWE and including the NXT title, or what? --[[User:JDC808|<span style="color: green;">JDC808</span>]] [[User talk:JDC808|<span style="color: black;">♫</span>]] 00:33, 13 June 2019 (UTC) |
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0 sense to it, it will just make wikipedia more "unreliable" making up a non existent accomplishment based on ideas by editors , or some twitter rant by a single star, if WWE cites there is such a think then only should it be added, other wise not, thats just my view. [[User:Dilbaggg|Dilbaggg]] ([[User talk:Dilbaggg|talk]]) 08:00, 13 June 2019 (UTC) |
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::I heard my name being called, so I'll chime in - I added a story in the Calgary Sun newspaper written by Natalya Neidhart where she specifically lists the Raw, SD, NXT, and Women's Tag Team Titles as being the components of the Grand Slam as a reference. So this isn't a "twitter rant" or original research. The Calgary Sun had hometown girl Nattie serve as a special correspondent to write about the MITB event. That's as good a source as any. [[User:Vjmlhds|Vjmlhds]] [[user talk:Vjmlhds|(talk)]] 01:49, 23 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:::That just sounds like a similar case to Charlotte Flair saying such and such titles made her a Triple Crown and Grand Slam champion, which WWE did not recognize, and thus far, they haven't recognized Natalya's claim either. That's the issue. We need an actual WWE source confirming the titles, not just a wrestler saying it. The one that we do have does not include the NXT title. --[[User:JDC808|<span style="color: green;">JDC808</span>]] [[User talk:JDC808|<span style="color: black;">♫</span>]] 07:56, 23 June 2019 (UTC) |
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I also think we are taking a tweet out of context. There was absolutely no mention of the NXT Championship anywhere near the Bayley tweet. Let's not forget that [[Grand_Slam_(professional_wrestling)#Florida_Championship_Wrestling|the FCW Grand Slam]] consists of winning 3 championships, i.e every title available. Bayley completed the Triple Crown but also won every title available in WWE, i.e a Grand Slam. I don't think this was meaning two completely separate categories. I find it especially hard to believe given how WWE treats the main roster and NXT as two completely separate entities. "Samoa Joe has never won a title since coming to WWE two years ago" and many statements like that heavily imply they are completely separate, no different than FCW was. This would also make the grand slam impossible to anyone that failed to win a developmental title so that's another reason why I don't think this is legit. [[User:MarioFan78|<big><font color="#05C900">'''M'''</font><font color="#08D8FC">'''A'''</font><font color="#F1C82E">'''R'''</font><font color="#F83837">'''I'''</font><font color="#05C900">'''O'''</font></big>]]<span style="text-shadow: 0 0 5px red; color: red;">[[User talk:MarioFan78|<sup><font color="#08D8FC">Fan78</font></sup>]]</span> 21:11, 9 July 2019 (UTC) |
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:As I don't have this saved in my watchlist, I kind of forgot about this discussion, but are we ever gonna come to some kind of consensus on this issue? There's still no official recognition from WWE that they recognize the NXT Women's Championship for the Grand Slam (if the women's Grand Slam is an actual accomplishment, yet). --[[User:JDC808|<span style="color: green;">JDC808</span>]] [[User talk:JDC808|<span style="color: black;">♫</span>]] 11:20, 1 August 2019 (UTC) |
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::[http://shop.wwe.com/bayley-grand-slam-champion-t-shirt/2282FDFE96.html?dwvar_2282FDFE96_color-Black#start=1 Well, WWE Shop has just come out with a Bayley "Grand Slam Champion" T-Shirt] where all 4 titles are shown (as well as the MITB case). [[User:Vjmlhds|Vjmlhds]] [[user talk:Vjmlhds|(talk)]] 22:18, 2 August 2019 (UTC) |
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:::I can concede to that. --[[User:JDC808|<span style="color: green;">JDC808</span>]] [[User talk:JDC808|<span style="color: black;">♫</span>]] 09:12, 3 August 2019 (UTC) |
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::::So, are we now arguing the MITB is part of the Grand Slam? I think that's just a shirt with everything Bayley has accomplished in addition to the Grand Slam label they designated in this article: <ref>{{cite web|url=https://www.wwe.com/article/superstar-of-the-week|title=SmackDown Women’s Champion Bayley named Superstar of the Week|date=May 24, 2019|last=Benigno|first=Anthony|work=[[WWE]].com|accessdate=May 28, 2019|quote=But the victory also made Bayley the first Superstar to ever hold the '''Raw Women's Championship''', the '''SmackDown Women's Championship''' and the '''WWE Women's Tag Team Championship''' — the Women's Grand Slam, if you will.}}</ref> They've only offhand referred to the accomplishment as a Grand Slam, and have meanwhile made two official statements with custom pictures (for Bayley and Alexa) calling the same achievement a triple crown. Tldr; I think its two different names for the same accomplishment... and so does WWE. [[User:MarioFan78|<big><font color="#05C900">'''M'''</font><font color="#08D8FC">'''A'''</font><font color="#F1C82E">'''R'''</font><font color="#F83837">'''I'''</font><font color="#05C900">'''O'''</font></big>]]<span style="text-shadow: 0 0 5px red; color: red;">[[User talk:MarioFan78|<sup><font color="#08D8FC">Fan78</font></sup>]]</span> 02:38, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
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{{reflist}} |
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== Page content and order == |
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Order of contents: per [[WP:LIST]], "[[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lists#Organization|Although lists may be organized in different ways, they must always be organized. The most basic form of organization is alphabetical or numerical (such as List of Star Wars starfighters), though if items have specific dates a chronological format is sometimes preferable (List of Belarusian Prime Ministers). When using a more complex form of organization, (by origin, by use, by type, etc.), the criteria for categorization must be clear and consistent.]]" Putting WWE first because they created the concept of the Grand Slam only works if all other entries are in chronological order. Otherwise, this is just editors subjectively putting content they consider the most important at the top. |
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If the page is going to be ordered any way other than alphabetically, the rationale for the order should be clear. |
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Division between national and regional/independent: no explanation is given for this distinction on the page, it is therefore arbitrary. If the entries are going to be divided, the reasons for this should be clear. |
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[[User:McPhail|McPhail]] ([[User talk:McPhail|talk]]) 17:41, 25 May 2019 (UTC) |
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:Once you were first reverted you should not revert again but leave the article as it was until discussion is concluded. Please don't edit war. |
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:That said, I think making a distinction between national and regional promotions is important. Some of these regionals are barely even notable enough for articles, let alone appearing before major companies that defined the concept. But that's just my 2¢. |
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:I left a note at the project talk page to hopefully draw some discussion so we can find a broader consensus. [[User:Oknazevad|oknazevad]] ([[User talk:Oknazevad|talk]]) 17:46, 25 May 2019 (UTC) |
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::"[[Wikipedia:Edit_warring#What_edit_warring_is|Reverting to enforce certain overriding policies is not considered edit warring.]]" Your edits are contrary to [[WP:LIST]] and can therefore validly be reverted. |
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::Sorting the promotions by the date when the Grand Slam accolade was introduced is an acceptable alternative to alphabetical order, if this is supported. |
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::If promotions are not notable, they simply should not appear in the article. Putting them at the bottom of the page is not a sensible compromise. [[User:McPhail|McPhail]] ([[User talk:McPhail|talk]]) 18:01, 25 May 2019 (UTC) |
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*We should 100% only include notable grand slams. To me that is just national promotions. Best Wishes, '''[[User:Lee Vilenski|<span style="color:green">Lee Vilenski</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Lee Vilenski|talk]] • [[Special:Contribs/Lee Vilenski|contribs]])</sup>''' 17:56, 25 May 2019 (UTC) |
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**I agree non-notable promotions should be excluded. I would avoid the "national" distinction though which is subjective. [[User:McPhail|McPhail]] ([[User talk:McPhail|talk]]) 18:01, 25 May 2019 (UTC) |
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I agree. I prefer chronological order, since WWE was the first and the most notable one. for me, the limit is if the promotion is notable. --[[User:HHH Pedrigree|HHH Pedrigree]] ([[User talk:HHH Pedrigree|talk]]) 18:15, 25 May 2019 (UTC) |
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: I think we should only include national promotions. WWE/Impact/ROH and any others that recognize a Grand Slam champion. I support listing WWE at the top, followed by the other promotions in alphabetical order. '''[[User:STATicVapor|StaticVapor]] <small>[[User talk:STATicVapor|<span style="vertical-align:super;">message me!</span>]]</small>''' 18:41, 25 May 2019 (UTC) |
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::It's the same problem with the triple crown. I don't remember who, but somebody complaines about the inclusion of independent promotions. But these are notable promotions, I think it's enough since the article covers the TC and GS in pro wrestling, no just TC and GS for national promotions. Any case, I don't see Explosive notable. Most of the sources are cagematch, wrestling titles and wrestling data. Outside an agreement with GFW, it's hard to see as a notable promotion. --[[User:HHH Pedrigree|HHH Pedrigree]] ([[User talk:HHH Pedrigree|talk]]) 12:52, 26 May 2019 (UTC) |
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:::Listing WWE first then other promotions alphabetically is not a consistent or clear ordering, which is required by the policy. The discussion above appears to support the removal of non-notable promotions and the ordering of the remaining promotions chronologically, which I will implement. [[User:McPhail|McPhail]] ([[User talk:McPhail|talk]]) 19:35, 27 May 2019 (UTC) |
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::::The point is "notable" promotion. These promotions (CZW, OVW, Revpro) have articles, so they are notable. I understand promotions with no article, but these promotions are notable to have an article about them --[[User:HHH Pedrigree|HHH Pedrigree]] ([[User talk:HHH Pedrigree|talk]]) 22:01, 27 May 2019 (UTC) |
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:::::We should remove "non-notable" promotions but there seems to be little consensus on what that means. I agree with HHH Pedrigree that any promotion with an article is notable and I think anything notable can be included.[[User:LM2000|LM2000]] ([[User talk:LM2000|talk]]) 22:35, 27 May 2019 (UTC) |
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::::::That's what [[WP:Notability]] says. All of these promotions that were deleted are notable. Imagine a list of Disney films with only notable ones and suddenly, the direct to DVD are removed since it wasn't shown on theaters. Yes, these are Direct to DVD movies, but have articles, so they are notable. Also, the independent vs nationals it's a little outdated, since some promotions has On Demand services and internet fanbase around the world. As LM2000 said, we have to agree about notable", since it's a bad word. --[[User:HHH Pedrigree|HHH Pedrigree]] ([[User talk:HHH Pedrigree|talk]]) 22:47, 27 May 2019 (UTC) |
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I can see we haven't come to a conclusion yet, but McPhail has already taken down the regional promotions, and ECW and LU. I don't think that they should have been taken down, because the company would have recognised a Triple Crown/Grand Slam format one way or another if they were up there in the first place. For example I'm from the same place where EPW is, and they've recognised that Gavin McGavin is the 'first ever EPW Triple Crown and Grand Slam Champion' after he won the Heavyweight title in August 2018.[[User:Drummoe|Drummoe]] ([[User talk:Drummoe|talk]]) 0:45, 28 May 2019 (UTC) |
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:We haven't come to a conclusion yet and any substantial changes should be reverted until we come to one. The ECW removal was particularly sloppy, the rationale was that the source included came from an interview but there was a [https://www.wwe.com/classics/10-most-hardcore-wrestlers/page-10 second source].[[User:LM2000|LM2000]] ([[User talk:LM2000|talk]]) 03:35, 28 May 2019 (UTC) |
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:Alright well I've just reverted it back then, and I put the second source for ECW up there. [[User:Drummoe|Drummoe]] ([[User talk:Drummoe|talk]]) 04:00, 28 May 2019 (UTC) |
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::The source you've added says simply "Though he was a Triple Crown Champion in ECW". It does not say "The Extreme Championship Wrestling (ECW) Triple Crown consisted of the ECW World Heavyweight Championship, the ECW World Television Championship and the ECW World Tag Team Championship." which is what the article claims. This is [[WP:SYNTHESIS]]. Material should not be added without a robust source. [[User:McPhail|McPhail]] ([[User talk:McPhail|talk]]) 18:01, 28 May 2019 (UTC) |
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:::That is all there was, so there is no other option, it is not "synthesis" to say that "red, yellow and green" are three colors. [[User:MPJ-DK|MPJ-DK]] ([[User talk:MPJ-DK|talk]]) 03:13, 2 June 2019 (UTC) |
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== ROH reformat? == |
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Since ROH are considering the Pure and 6-man championships as interchangeable for their Grand Slam, would it not make sense to list them as "Tertiary championships", so it read "Primary" (World), "Tag Team" (World Tag), "Secondary" (World TV), "Tertiary" (6-Man or Pure, either needed). |
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Sorry, I'm no good with tables so can't show what I mean. [[Special:Contributions/2A00:23C6:760A:7F01:71F9:DFD0:1F62:5DC|2A00:23C6:760A:7F01:71F9:DFD0:1F62:5DC]] ([[User talk:2A00:23C6:760A:7F01:71F9:DFD0:1F62:5DC|talk]]) 16:21, 24 May 2020 (UTC) |
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== Dolph Ziggler - Grand Slam Champ == |
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Multiple reigns with WHC, IC, US, and Tag titles. All before the Universal Title was introduced. There needs to be another section for the time between European title and Universal title. [[Special:Contributions/2603:7000:8401:463D:1D8:33D9:A337:1FD1|2603:7000:8401:463D:1D8:33D9:A337:1FD1]] ([[User talk:2603:7000:8401:463D:1D8:33D9:A337:1FD1|talk]]) 18:03, 21 March 2021 (UTC) |
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:He never held the right combo to be considered a grand slam winner. He needs one of the current world titles.[[User:LM2000|LM2000]] ([[User talk:LM2000|talk]]) 18:30, 21 March 2021 (UTC) |
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::Which doesn't count? The WHC? if so then drop Christian and Booker T. [[Special:Contributions/2603:7000:8401:463D:1D8:33D9:A337:1FD1|2603:7000:8401:463D:1D8:33D9:A337:1FD1]] ([[User talk:2603:7000:8401:463D:1D8:33D9:A337:1FD1|talk]]) 22:36, 21 March 2021 (UTC) |
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:::He would have needed a European or Hardcore title win to be a grand slam winner with the WHC under the original criteria. WHC doesn't count for the revised criteria, although the US title does. All of the titles you've mentioned are part of the grand slam but they need to be in the right combo to count.[[User:LM2000|LM2000]] ([[User talk:LM2000|talk]]) 23:00, 21 March 2021 (UTC) |
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::::there was almost 15 years between the retirement of the European title and the establishment of the universal title. but there was the us title as a replacement for the euro. Also listing the hardcore as a qualifier is insane. it was slightly more prestigious than the 24/at points [[Special:Contributions/2603:7000:8401:463D:1D8:33D9:A337:1FD1|2603:7000:8401:463D:1D8:33D9:A337:1FD1]] ([[User talk:2603:7000:8401:463D:1D8:33D9:A337:1FD1|talk]]) 23:12, 21 March 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::I agree with basically everything you said but it's not up to us to make this stuff up. WWE does and we struggle to keep up with it.[[User:LM2000|LM2000]] ([[User talk:LM2000|talk]]) 23:20, 21 March 2021 (UTC) |
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maybe Wikipedia could add a caregory for those who fall into this category [[Special:Contributions/2603:7000:8401:463D:71F1:55C1:4733:4704|2603:7000:8401:463D:71F1:55C1:4733:4704]] ([[User talk:2603:7000:8401:463D:71F1:55C1:4733:4704|talk]]) 00:04, 23 March 2021 (UTC) |
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:No. "it's not up to us to make this stuff up." --[[User:HHH Pedrigree|HHH Pedrigree]] ([[User talk:HHH Pedrigree|talk]]) 21:55, 25 March 2021 (UTC) |
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== Multiple Grand Slams? == |
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For the WWE (modern) and TNA Grand Slam listings, is there a better way to list the dates of the 2nd Grand Slam? For example, maybe list the dates and reigns that compose of the second reign as Grand Slam? [[User:Retched|retched]] ([[User talk:Retched|talk]]) 19:43, 13 April 2021 (UTC) |
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== Bret Hart == |
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Bret Hart is a Grand Slam Champion too. He won the WWE Title, the tag titles, the IC title and the US title. [[Special:Contributions/89.204.130.246|89.204.130.246]] ([[User talk:89.204.130.246|talk]]) 09:24, 24 July 2021 (UTC) |
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Latest revision as of 15:27, 26 November 2024
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Multiple Grand Slams?
[edit]For the WWE (modern) and TNA Grand Slam listings, is there a better way to list the dates of the 2nd Grand Slam? For example, maybe list the dates and reigns that compose of the second reign as Grand Slam? retched (talk) 19:43, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Bret Hart
[edit]Bret Hart is a Grand Slam Champion too. He won the WWE Title, the tag titles, the IC title and the US title. 89.204.130.246 (talk) 09:24, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
- So WWE does not recognize WCW-owned reigns of the championships when counting for the WWE Grand Slam Championship. However, the argument does make sense as the lineages for both titles DO line up. (WWE recognizes the US title as starting back in the NWA era through the end of the WCW/Turner era.) Nonetheless, WWE didn't update their original list (nor the revised list) to include any WCW title reign which is what matters most. retched (talk) 13:43, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
WCW?
[edit]Why isn't there a WCW section? 2600:387:C:6A14:0:0:0:2 (talk) 18:10, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
- Because WCW never defined a Grand Slam criteria before they went under. Sure, the idea of using their Triple Crown (World, US, and Tag titles) with the addition of the TV title seems plausible, but a) since they never declared it as such, we cannot say it was, and b) the TV title was abandoned well before the company folded, so it's clear they didn't really care much about it themselves. But mostly a). We can't introduce something that didn't actually exist. oknazevad (talk) 23:26, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
bret won the wwe US title as well
[edit]bret hart being a grand slam champions was brought up and the reason for not adding him was that wwe doesn't count wcw US titles but bret won the wwe US title back in 2009 or so
so he's part of the new grand slam format 2607:FEA8:BF1D:7700:FCE1:6CF3:6193:3D0 (talk) 18:37, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
- No. As I stated above, Bret won the WCW United States States Championship. WWE only counts title reigns that were started during the WWE's ownership of WCW and onward as part of the Grand Slam. While the histories are the same, that qualifier makes it not a part of the WWE Grand Slam. retched (talk) 18:43, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
Rhea Ripley Grand Slam note
[edit]In addition to Rhea Ripley becoming the 5th female to become a grand slam champion in WWE joining Askua Sasha Banks Charlotte Flair and Bayley and doing it the fastest. Rhea Ripley is also the first wrestler in history to conquer the female titles of RAW, SmackDown, NXT and NXT UK with the exception of the NXT Womens Tag Team Championship. - 2A02:C7C:53C1:E00:6D68:BFEC:AC91:7F55 (talk) 11:51, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
Split proposal
[edit]I proposed that the section about WWE Grand Slam winners be split into a separate page called List of WWE Grand Slam winners because the section is too long. -St3095 (?) 04:34, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think it's too long per se. The question is, I suppose, if you remove the WWE Grand Slam stuff, is the other Grand Slams notable on their own? Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 08:32, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Article is about wrestling Grand Slams. If you take out WWE, then it would open up Pandora's Box for people to want the other Slams to have their own page. Let sleeping dogs lie. Vjmlhds (talk) 02:45, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Unnecessary content forking. --Mann Mann (talk) 09:35, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
It seems unfair to not include Dolph Ziggler (Nick Nemeth) as a Grand Slam Champion
[edit]I can only assume the rationale here is that Ziggler "only" won the World Heavyweight Title ("the Big Gold Belt") to go along with his various tag-team, IC, and US title reigns. But that title (with a history stretching back over 100 years) was considered co-equal to the WWF/WWE title (now merged with the Universal title and referred to, IMO inelegantly, as the "WWE Undisputed Universal Championship") and it was NOT discontinued in 2013; it was UNIFIED with the WWE title.
Its history should count towards the Grand Slam and Ziggler should be recognized as a Grand Slam Champion. It seems unfair to consider Christian (who likewise won this title but not the WWF/WWE title) a Grand Slam Champion because he qualified under the old rules (winning a tertiary championship), but exclude Ziggler. And it IMO unfairly disadvantages Jack Swagger (Jake Hager), who is only 42 years old and still an active wrester, to say that he can't be considered a Triple Crown Champion (should he return to WWE and win a Tag-Team Championship to go with his World Heavyweight and U.S. Title reigns) or a Grand Slam (should Swagger also win the Intercontinental Championship) winner.
(Mark Hardy would also be subject to such a disadvantage, but he has retired.)
I realize that WWE has their own standards, but IMO general recognition for Ziggler would put pressure on them to remedy this error. Thoughts? 2600:1700:F070:AB10:214C:9205:4018:90B6 (talk) 18:49, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- We don't make up our own rules and definitions. Is it unfair? Maybe. Do we care? Absolutely not. WWE doesn't list him as a grand slam champion, so we don't either. Period. oknazevad (talk) 03:20, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
The WWE Women’s grand slam needs a revised version like the men
[edit]Ok so the Women’s grand slam in wwe is changing with the introduction of both the WWE Womens United States and Intercontinental Championships. So there needs to be a revised version of the women’s grand slam section, it’s unclear at the time if the nxt women’s and nxt women’s North American championships will be included into the new revised women’s grand slam as the NXT women’s championship was only included in the grand slam because the women didn’t have a mid-card title to go for at the time S7Nightmare (talk) 03:18, 26 November 2024 (UTC)