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== Dust-up on referencing == |
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== ArbCom 2020 Elections voter message == |
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Hi Gilgamesh, I noticed the dust-up on referencing style at [[Younger Dryas]], and I have something that may help next time. I discovered it too late for a timely comment there, and I probably wouldn't have wanted to get involved in the middle of it anyway, but here's a compromise alternative to think about, that might keep everyone happy, or at least reasonably unruffled, if this same situation recurs: it's [[WP:LDR|List-defined references]]. |
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<table class="messagebox " style="border: 1px solid #AAA; background: ivory; padding: 0.5em; width: 100%;"> |
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<tr><td style="vertical-align:middle; padding-left:1px; padding-right:0.5em;">[[File:Scale of justice 2.svg|40px]]</td><td>Hello! Voting in the '''[[WP:ACE2020|2020 Arbitration Committee elections]]''' is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on {{#time:l, j F Y|{{Arbitration Committee candidate/data|2020|end}}-1 day}}. All '''[[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2020#Election timeline|eligible users]]''' are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once. |
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I believe I understand why you like 'exploded' refs (one per line): it's because when placed inline, it makes it much easier to find what is article text, and what is citation wikicode, so you can modify the article without getting all tangled up. I remember a horror show at the 'Eric Zemmour' article, where I simply couldn't find the running text of the lead paragraph, because it was a contentious topic and had [[WP:CITECLUTTER|so many citations]] that it was almost impossible to find the words of a single sentence strewn with numerous embedded citations. The spaghetti code at Zemmour made Dryas look like a paragon of minimalist architecture. It was completely unreadable, unmanageable, and uneditable, until I converted it to LDR, and even though it's still ridiculously overcited, at least the lead wikicode is easily readable now in the code-editing preview window. (The trade-off is that the "References" section is way longer than it needs to be now, but it's all tidy and orderly and it doesn't intrude when what you want to do is to edit the lead paragraph.) |
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The [[WP:ARBCOM|Arbitration Committee]] is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration|Wikipedia arbitration process]]. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose [[WP:BAN|site bans]], [[WP:TBAN|topic bans]], editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Policy|arbitration policy]] describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. |
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If you want to see the old horror show, have a look at the wikicode for the first couple of paragraphs at 'Eric Zemmour' from revision [[Special:Permalink/1057491695|1057491695 of 27 November 2021]], and then compare that to now: [[Eric Zemmour]]. The [[WP:LDR|LDR]] style used in the current version gets you what you want, I believe, in minimizing the [[WP:CITECLUTTER]]. I'm pretty sure the other editor you were scrapping with wouldn't mind this style either, because if you edit the current [[Éric_Zemmour#References]] section, you'll see it's all nicely organized, alphabetical, and in the 'tight' style he prefers. |
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If you wish to participate in the 2020 election, please review [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2020/Candidates|the candidates]] and submit your choices on the '''[[Special:SecurePoll/vote/{{Arbitration Committee candidate/data|2020|poll}}|voting page]]'''. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add {{tlx|NoACEMM}} to your user talk page. [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|talk]]) 01:15, 24 November 2020 (UTC) |
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</td></tr> |
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</table> |
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If you find that that use of LDRs is an acceptable solution for you and might be a viable compromise for your discussion partner, I hope it may help you in future discussions of this nature. Cheers, [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 22:46, 15 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== Sad news == |
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== [[Wikipedia:Proposed deletion|Proposed deletion]] of [[:Jarom]] == |
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[[File:Ambox warning yellow.svg|left|link=|alt=Notice|48px|]] |
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The article [[:Jarom]] has been [[Wikipedia:Proposed deletion|proposed for deletion]] because of the following concern: |
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I don't know if you have heard about it (I only recently heard it from a fellow linguist): Steve Trussel passed away in 2020. This[https://web.archive.org/web/20200919230321/http://www.simenon-simenon.com/2020/08/simenon-simenon-jai-perdu-un-ami.html] is the only info I found on the web. –[[User:Austronesier|Austronesier]] ([[User talk:Austronesier|talk]]) 15:05, 27 January 2021 (UTC) |
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<blockquote>'''Not notable'''</blockquote> |
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:Oh, no... :( - [[User:Gilgamesh~enwiki|Gilgamesh]] ([[User talk:Gilgamesh~enwiki#top|talk]]) 20:56, 27 January 2021 (UTC) |
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== "Omos" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] == |
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[[File:Information.svg|30px]] |
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A discussion is taking place to address the redirect [[:Omos]]. The discussion will occur at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 February 13#Omos]] until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> [[User:MB|<b style="color:#00FF00">MB</b>]] 04:04, 13 February 2021 (UTC) |
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While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be [[WP:DEL#REASON|deleted for any of several reasons]]. |
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== Terminology == |
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You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your [[Help:edit summary|edit summary]] or on [[Talk:Jarom|the article's talk page]]. |
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This is by no means a big deal and I mean absolutely no disrespect, but just in case people are too nice to point it out, another quirk you seem to have is your use of ''geminate(d)''. It is only consonants that may be single or geminate(d). Vowels are either short or long. [[User:Nardog|Nardog]] ([[User talk:Nardog|talk]]) 14:46, 11 May 2021 (UTC) |
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Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the [[Wikipedia:Proposed deletion|proposed deletion process]], but other [[Wikipedia:deletion process|deletion process]]es exist. In particular, the [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion|speedy deletion]] process can result in deletion without discussion, and [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion|articles for deletion]] allows discussion to reach [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] for deletion.<!-- Template:Proposed deletion notify --> [[User:Big Money Threepwood|Big Money Threepwood]] ([[User talk:Big Money Threepwood|talk]]) 18:38, 22 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:It's probably just a communication quirk, and I always have those in some form or another. I'm aware that I generally have quirks, but I don't notice most of them unless someone points them out, and I can't keep track of all of them in a timely or efficient manner, so doing so is not the best use of my time or energy. In this case, I see {{angbr IPA|ː}} and my mind associates it with gemination, regardless of whether it involves consonants or vowels. No one has ever taken issue with me saying "geminated vowels" before (at least enough to comment on it), nor have I ever really stopped to notice if anyone else ''doesn't'' say "geminated vowels," so it strikes me as a non-issue. I'll settle for an adequate level of communication. |
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:Also, in the case of Icelandic, "short" and "long" vowels traditionally refer to those without or with acute diacritics (''a e i o u y'' vs. ''á é í ó ú ý'', and also historically "short" ''ö'' and historically "long" ''æ'' if one were to nitpick). But as we know, that stopped being an audible duration distinction long ago, as the "long" vowels all either diphthongized or changed in fundamental vowel quality. Now, "short" vowels, "long" vowels and traditional diphthongs (''au ei ey'') alike can each have a short or long duration, and the longer duration is what I settle for describing as "geminated," because it can be distinguished with {{angbr IPA|ː}}. It's good enough in a crunch. |
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:Now, if my communication quirks ever, for whatever reason, were to become a significant barrier in the writing and wording of articles themselves, then my fellow editors can assist me by improving on the edits directly, just as we normally assist each other in general. In a talk page, the quirkiness of my wording can't occupy the forefront of my attention, which must be reserved for the cogent discussion points themselves. - [[User:Gilgamesh~enwiki|Gilgamesh]] ([[User talk:Gilgamesh~enwiki#top|talk]]) 16:04, 11 May 2021 (UTC) |
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== Belated invitation to join the Twenty Year Society == |
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== Icelandic IPA == |
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[[File:Twenty Years Society (2019, square edit).svg|left|125px|link=Wikipedia:Twenty Year Society]] Dear Gilgamesh, |
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Hi. Your Icelandic IPA additions contain sufficiently many errors that it would be preferable not to add them. If you assemble a list of IPAs I could review them for you, but reviewing them after they've been inserted into articles is too time consuming. – '''[[User:Þjarkur|Thjarkur]]''' [[User talk:Þjarkur|(talk)]] 13:11, 17 May 2021 (UTC) |
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I'd like to extend this overdue but still cordial invitation to you to join the '''[[Wikipedia:Twenty Year Society|Twenty Year Society]]''', an informal group for editors who've been participating in the Wikipedia project for twenty years or more. |
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:{{ping|Þjarkur}} I can fix IPAs. And I have been trying to reach out to other editors in the past for help and review, but I've had so few answers. Could you tell me some of the patterns of errors in particular I've been inserting? I really would like to know, and have my edits reviewed in general. - [[User:Gilgamesh~enwiki|Gilgamesh]] ([[User talk:Gilgamesh~enwiki#top|talk]]) 13:22, 17 May 2021 (UTC) |
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Best regards, <span class="nowrap"><span style="font-family:copperplate gothic;">[[User:Chris troutman|<span style="color:#345">Chris Troutman</span>]] ([[User talk:Chris troutman|<span style="color:#345">talk</span>]])</span></span> 18:51, 22 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{ping|Þjarkur}} I looked at some of your recent contributions to see what IPA you've corrected, and I've been noticing some patterns. |
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== Nomination of [[:Waters of Mormon]] for deletion == |
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:* I do mark final ''-n(n)'' as voiceless, but I was told that final [[sonorant]]s are devoiced like this at a pause. Are you saying this only affects ''-r'' and ''-l''? I'm sort of presuming that if it doesn't affect ''-n'', then it probably doesn't affect ''-m'', either. |
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:* Devoiced ''r'' in ''-rs''. My reference for this was [https://notendur.hi.is/eirikur/ipv.pdf A Short Overview of the Icelandic Sound System Pronunciation Variants and Phonetic Transcription] by [[Eiríkur Rögnvaldsson]] (2020). I did specifically cover the pattern that ''r'' was devoiced before ''s''...but didn't say that was only ''within'' a morpheme. I applied the devoicing across morpheme boundaries, like in [[Skeiðarársandur|Skeiðar·ár·sandur]], etc., and apparently that was wrong? |
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<div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">[[File:Ambox warning orange.svg|48px|alt=|link=]]</div>A discussion is taking place as to whether the article [[:Waters of Mormon]] is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to [[Wikipedia:List of policies and guidelines|Wikipedia's policies and guidelines]] or whether it should be [[Wikipedia:Deletion policy|deleted]]. |
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:* [[Lómagnúpur]]. Yeah, I do remember fumbling a bit on that. I tried to google the name's etymology, look up the individual morphemes in dictionaries. After all this, I thought it was divisible as ''Ló·mag·núpur'', but I guess I was wrong and it's ''Lóma·gnúpur''. Morpheme boundaries can be a little tricky to discern when you're not a native speaker, which is why I've specifically opted not to add IPA for some terms I couldn't figure out in that regard. I did, however, fix a previous error on my own, in [[Stuðlagil]], where I had previously divided the word as ''Stuð·lagil'' instead of ''Stuðla·gil''. |
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:* In [[Uxatindar]], etc. The {{IPA|[xs]}} vs. {{IPA|[ks]}} issue also affects other Wikipedia articles concerning Icelandic. Apparently {{IPA|[xs]}} is...traditional? But Eiríkur Rögnvaldsson (2020) says few people under the age of 60 use it, and most people use {{IPA|[ks]}}. Since the [[Icelandic phonology]] article (which I've complained in [[Talk:Icelandic phonology]] is kind of a mess) only mentions {{IPA|[xs]}}, I was going under the assumption that that is traditional IPA. But I couldn't ignore what I learnt about {{IPA|[ks]}}, so I included both pronunciations. |
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:* In [[Eyja- og Miklaholtshreppur]], etc. I was, again, going by Eiríkur Rögnvaldsson (2020) which indicates that the ''t'' in ''lts'' (within a morpheme, I'm assuming) may be silent. And I previously found inconsistencies in this regard in IPA already present in particles, like [[Surtsey]] (someone else's IPA with {{IPA|[r̥ts]}}) and [[Surtshellir]] (someone else's IPA with {{IPA|[r̥s]}}). Going by the reference, I replaced these examples with {{IPA|[r̥(t)s]}}, and used that going forward. |
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:* In [[Okjökull]] (and I suspect also [[Langjökull]]), etc. None of the references suggested that palatalization of ''k'' and ''g'' did not occur across morpheme boundaries. I previously specifically tried to ask people for help on ''Lang·jökull'', but, as has often been the problem, I couldn't find people knowledgeable in it. I then turned to audio clips for guidance. I don't know if {{IPA|[kˌj]}} is formal and {{IPA|[cˌ]}} is casual or whatever, so I...used my best judgment based on the materials available to me. |
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:* In [[Arnavatnsheiði]], that was just an inconsistency. The article is titled Arnavatnsheiði, but the lede calls it Arna'''r'''vatnsheiði, and I didn't notice that difference until right now. Iceland-related articles in general probably need a lot more review than they've been getting. But I did get ''vatns'' right as {{IPA|[vass]}} (again, thanks to Eiríkur Rögnvaldsson (2020)), as a less educated non-native guess might have been {{IPA|[vahtn̥s]}}. |
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:* In [[Dalvíkurbyggð]] and other ''-byggð'' articles. I read that final {{IPA|[ð]}} becomes {{IPA|[θ]}} in pause, and that final {{IPA|[ɣ]}} is {{IPA|[x]}} in pause, but I would have never would have guessed that final {{IPA|[ɣð]}} would become {{IPA|[ɣθ]}} instead of {{IPA|[xθ]}}. |
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:* In [[Svalbarðsstrandarhreppur]], that just seems...unpredictable. I divided the word among morphemes (''Sval·barðs·strandar·hreppur''), and gave ''sval'' a long vowel because it ended with only one consonant. What factor made it short? Was it the ''b'' at the start of the next morpheme creating a cross-morpheme consonant cluster ''lb''? Or is ''svalbarðs'' itself counted as a single morpheme? Or is ''sval'' a special morpheme with different vowel rules? All very good questions. Not always easy to find answers for. And, again, Iceland-related articles seem to suffer overall from a lack of attention and review. |
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:* In [[Grjúpán]]. Looks like another morpheme boundary confusion. ''Grjúp·án'', not ''Grjú·pán''. |
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:* In [[Iceland]] itself. You may have to forgive this confusion. I keep seeing the IPA for ''Ísland'' indicated inconsistently in lots of different places. {{IPA|[ˈistlant]}}? {{IPA|[ˈiːsˌlant]}}? {{IPA|[ˈiːstˌlant]}}? It now seems apparent that ''Ísland'' is to be treated as a unitary morpheme rather than divided into ''Ís·land''. |
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:* In [[Ófærufoss]]. Again, morpheme boundary confusion. But this time I made the mistake of looking at how the name is spelt in interwikis for a hint. In retrospect, if it actually ''had'' been ''Óf·æru·foss'' instead of ''Ó·færu·foss'', the first ''f'' might actually have been {{IPA|[(v)]}} instead of {{IPA|[v]}} (going by Eiríkur Rögnvaldsson (2020)). |
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:* In [[Barðsneshorn]], etc. The issue of IPA for ''ðs'' can be a bit...confusing. In the audio clips I listen to for words like that, it keeps sounding like they're saying {{IPA|[θs]}}. |
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:* In [[Egil's Saga]], etc. Yeah...that particular confusion came from Wiktionary, of all places. Not specifically the name ''Eigill'', but so many other terms with that diphthonging reflex. (Wiktionary also has its own issues with consistency.) Eiríkur Rögnvaldsson (2020) says the lack of diphthonging is mostly regional (Southern Iceland), but Wiktionary's Icelandic rhymes pages more vaguely say it's some speakers. So whenever I saw any combination of a stressed vowel before ''gi'' within the same morpheme, I did both variations. |
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:* In [[Bárðar saga Snæfellsáss]]. That again was the cross-morpheme ''-r-s-'' confusion. I already knew that devoicing was only pause-final. |
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:* In [[Hoffellsjökull]]. ''[[Hoffell]]'' being treated as a single morpheme (instead of two as ''Hof·fell'') was, again, hard to predict. I did notice that when you corrected the pronunciation, you used single {{IPA|[f]}} instead of double {{IPA|[ff]}}. That's the first suggestion I've seen since Eiríkur Rögnvaldsson (2020) that double consonants within a morpheme may be losing their contrast. All the other linguistics references I consulted didn't even cover that, and generally (along with [[Icelandic phonology]] article) treated double consonants as truly geminated. Is it always only possibly {{IPA|[f]}}, or can it also be {{IPA|[ff]}}? - [[User:Gilgamesh~enwiki|Gilgamesh]] ([[User talk:Gilgamesh~enwiki#top|talk]]) 14:48, 17 May 2021 (UTC) |
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:I think that covers most of the issues you had with my IPA. If there any others, then please tell me. The general problem here is that, whenever there's an abrupt renewed international interest in a place, one of the first things people wonder is "how is that pronounced?" And when it comes to Iceland topics...that can be really complicated. Too many questions, not enough editors, and not enough knowledgeable people to consult. At some point even an imperfect editing effort can be better than no editing at all ([[WP:BOLD]]), though I do recognize that too many well-meaning haphazard lone edits can cumulatively deteriorate an article's quality, which especially seems true for the article [[Icelandic phonology]]. That article in particular seems to have been the source of a lot of misconceptions that other editors propagated to other articles, including the notion that all sonorants are voiceless after voiceless consonants in all positions (e.g. {{IPA|*[ˈeiːjaˌfja'''tl̥'''aˌjœːkʏtl̥]}}), though I did try to fix that myself when I learnt it wasn't strictly true. - [[User:Gilgamesh~enwiki|Gilgamesh]] ([[User talk:Gilgamesh~enwiki#top|talk]]) 14:37, 17 May 2021 (UTC) |
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The article will be discussed at '''[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Waters of Mormon]]''' until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines. |
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:{{ping|Þjarkur}} I've been browsing through [[Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:IPA-is]] to see what IPA pronunciations I can repair as per these notes. I just reached [[Stöðvarfjörður]], where I can't say with enough certainty that that pronunciation is correct. Is it correct? - [[User:Gilgamesh~enwiki|Gilgamesh]] ([[User talk:Gilgamesh~enwiki#top|talk]]) 21:00, 17 May 2021 (UTC) |
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Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.<!-- Template:Afd notice --></div> [[User:Big Money Threepwood|Big Money Threepwood]] ([[User talk:Big Money Threepwood|talk]]) 04:47, 23 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:Also, [[Seltjarnarnes]]. I only ask because I originally couldn't find a clear dictionary entry for ''sel'', so I don't know if elongating its vowel is appropriate in this context. - [[User:Gilgamesh~enwiki|Gilgamesh]] ([[User talk:Gilgamesh~enwiki#top|talk]]) 21:29, 17 May 2021 (UTC) |
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== 20 Years! == |
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:I'm also not entirely certain the IPA for [[Þaralátursfjörður]] is correct. - [[User:Gilgamesh~enwiki|Gilgamesh]] ([[User talk:Gilgamesh~enwiki#top|talk]]) 22:37, 17 May 2021 (UTC) |
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Congratulations! I wish you another 20 years of great contributions! [[User:Rui Gabriel Correia|Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia]] ([[User talk:Rui Gabriel Correia|talk]]) 12:53, 3 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{ping|Þjarkur}} All right, I did a largely thorough sweep through many different articles' IPA. But one thing you need to understand is that edits like these aren't just going to stop, whether they're by me or someone else. They will be well-meaning, but not always accurate. I ended up correcting all sorts of other people's edits that were far worse. It's true that Iceland topics often don't have enough review by other editors, but that still can't be a reason not to try to edit them. Again, [[WP:BOLD]]. There's no replacement for discussion, review and verification involving multiple users. I welcome these, and have searched them out where I could, but this relies on others responding and participating. And, unfortunately, experts on Icelandic linguistics seem few and far between, so there've been so many questions that have simply gone unanswered for a long time. Now, a few of my IPA entries may have had mistakes, but most of them are accurate, no? I'm doing something other editors haven't seen fit to do on this scale before now, and I'm trying to be as informed as I can going forward. But I need review. All these articles need review. [[Icelandic phonology]] needs review (and probably an entire rewrite). [[Icelandic orthography]] needs review. [[Help:IPA/Icelandic]] needs review. The various talk pages are an ideal places to do this. I have opened various discussions at [[Talk:Icelandic phonology]] and at [[Help talk:IPA/Icelandic]] to address some things, and for the most part they haven't gotten much response, and those that have haven't adequately addressed all the points of concern. But with all due respect, talk pages are not places to ask editors not to edit just because there may not be enough time for other editors to review their edits for possible errors. Edits happen on public wikis regardless of whether there's someone else to review them. - [[User:Gilgamesh~enwiki|Gilgamesh]] ([[User talk:Gilgamesh~enwiki#top|talk]]) 23:46, 17 May 2021 (UTC) |
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== ArbCom 2024 Elections voter message == |
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:{{ping|Þjarkur}} Some more questions where I'm not entirely certain. |
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:* [[Bifröst (town)]] and [[Bifröst University]]. Since ''[[Bifröst]]'' seems to have originally been a mythological term, it's obviously not a new term. Is it to be treated as a unitary term, as {{IPA-is|ˈpɪvrœst|}}? Or is it split up, like ''Bif·röst'' {{IPA-is|ˈpɪːvˌrœst|}}? |
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:* [[Maríuhöfn]]. Right now it's {{IPA-is|ˈmaːriʏˌhœpn̥|}}. Should it be {{IPA-is|ˈmaːriːʏˌhœpn̥|}}? |
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:I will let you know if I think of any other uncertain edits. - [[User:Gilgamesh~enwiki|Gilgamesh]] ([[User talk:Gilgamesh~enwiki#top|talk]]) 13:14, 19 May 2021 (UTC) |
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:{{ping|Þjarkur}} Requesting review for [[Icelandic chicken]]. In particular, the IPA given for ''Haughænsni''. - [[User:Gilgamesh~enwiki|Gilgamesh]] ([[User talk:Gilgamesh~enwiki#top|talk]]) 18:11, 20 May 2021 (UTC) |
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:[[Gunnars saga Keldugnúpsfífls]]. I ''think'' I got the pronunciation right, but it should be reviewed. - [[User:Gilgamesh~enwiki|Gilgamesh]] ([[User talk:Gilgamesh~enwiki#top|talk]]) 00:52, 21 May 2021 (UTC) |
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Hello! Voting in the '''[[WP:ACE2024|2024 Arbitration Committee elections]]''' is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on {{#time:l, j F Y|{{Arbitration Committee candidate/data|2024|end}}-1 day}}. All '''[[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2024#Election timeline|eligible users]]''' are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once. |
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The [[WP:ARBCOM|Arbitration Committee]] is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration|Wikipedia arbitration process]]. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose [[WP:BAN|site bans]], [[WP:TBAN|topic bans]], editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Policy|arbitration policy]] describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. |
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:{{ping|Thjarkur}} Should I have been pinging only this name all this time? As you can see, I can be a bit of a restless binge editor, but I do care about the accuracy of my edits, which is why initially even when you didn't respond further, I browsed your own user contributions to glean for specific evidence of my own mistakes, and used those to try to correct other mistakes I'd made. But it would help to know when I'm on the right track, and when I'm on the wrong track. So many questions, not enough answers, from ''anyone'' it seems. This is a super-fascinating language, and I've already collected several linguistics PDFs on it to aid me, but it can be so hard to find interactive human experts to ask followup questions. Icelandic names and terms only have so much usefulness outside a purely textual context if a person doesn't know how to pronounce them. - [[User:Gilgamesh~enwiki|Gilgamesh]] ([[User talk:Gilgamesh~enwiki#top|talk]]) 17:19, 22 May 2021 (UTC) |
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:Need review of IPA for [[Álagablettur]]. - [[User:Gilgamesh~enwiki|Gilgamesh]] ([[User talk:Gilgamesh~enwiki#top|talk]]) 20:10, 22 May 2021 (UTC) |
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::Hæ hæ, either pinging method works but I had just left town for a few days. The issues you listed above are indeed the main issues. It is not possible to know how a term is split or whether adjacent terms influence vowel length without knowing the language. Additionally, consonant length differences are either so miniscule or non-existant that consonant length is not denoted in the standard broad transcription. "r" vs "rr" is sometimes perceptible, but "sólin" and "sólinn" are the same.{{pb}}I disagree that error-prone edits are better than no edits, especially at a massive scale. There is no one reviewing these articles except occasionally me. An editor's talk page is the correct location to let them know they're out of their depth. Your recent edits still contain too many errors and I would honestly recommend reverting your additions. WP:BOLD is not an excuse for making massive changes on a topic one isn't sufficiently familiar with.{{pb}}– '''[[User:Þjarkur|Thjarkur]]''' [[User talk:Þjarkur|(talk)]] 20:43, 23 May 2021 (UTC) |
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:::Problem is, what you propose would doom so many terms to the arcane realm of "esoterically unpronounceable." There's been such a recent surge of international interest in Iceland-related topics that it's really no longer acceptable for the vast majority of terms to have no educated attempts whatsoever to pronounce them. And when people don't know how, they'll try to find out how. Which initially means consulting the (still highly problematic) Icelandic linguistics articles, and beyond that, published papers on the subject. (I myself have collected these materials for both guidance and for use as references.[https://notendur.hi.is/eirikur/ipv.pdf][https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00437956.1959.11659700][http://www.linguisticsnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/Gussmann_2011_Getting_your_head_around_the_vowel_system_of_Modern_Icelandic.pdf][https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282778942_Phonetic_Transcription_Guideline_Icelandic][https://www.researchgate.net/publication/342788595_A_Phonetic_Illustration_of_the_Sound_System_of_Icelandic]) And, for principled and especially dedicated editors, going further still to eagerly learn from their mistakes, which in itself necessarily requires the freedom to make mistakes in the first place. These articles need review. They need experts. And if no experts step up, we search them out, because we're curious, we crave knowledge, we want to know these things. |
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:::And it's not just lack of pronunciation guides that appears to have plagued Iceland-related articles. It's also a general shortage of references, a tendency to editorialize in article bodies, and an osmosis of errors propagated by editors based on what's already elsewhere on the wiki. I recognize I'm not immune to this trend myself, but I have put great effort into fixing errors where I see them, improving problematic language, and flagging articles and statements for improper tone, lack of citation, or dubiousness, and, most importantly, learning and improving myself as a learner, researcher and editor as I go. The issue of pronunciation is far more nebulous still, because up until now there seems to have been very little effort by ''anyone'' to address this issue on a Wikipedia-wide basis outside a very small selection of terms. My general goal is to leave these articles in a ''relatively'' better condition than when I found them, and that's what I've been doing. "Relatively" being the key term, as it implies an improvement that itself may still be flawed but is better than what came before. |
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:::Now, if there's a problem, then please, by all means, help out by correcting articles, answering questions, sharing notes, because other editors will tend to involve themselves no matter what, and we do need additional participation by editors who have a keener knowledge about the topics, but more willing editing manpower is also still welcome. Wikipedia is an open wiki that anyone can edit precisely because its predecessor project, [[Nupedia]], could only be developed at an unacceptably slow pace and tiny scope when all edits had to be reviewed or approved by experts. The Wikipedia process allows for more possible error to creep up in articles (not to mention the occasional outright vandalism), but at the tradeoff of greater speed, participation, and ultimately also review of existing articles. Writing or editing a random article doesn't automatically make it a good article, but the underlying freedom to edit it is still necessary. It's the review and collaborative improvement process that can turn random articles into good articles. In the meantime, article edits cannot be prevented or discouraged just because there could be errors and not be enough editors with enough time to review them all. Honest efforts to improve articles, even when they are imperfect, should be welcomed and encouraged, with review and correction given by others as needed until a random article becomes an above-average-quality article, to hopefully a good article. - [[User:Gilgamesh~enwiki|Gilgamesh]] ([[User talk:Gilgamesh~enwiki#top|talk]]) 21:58, 23 May 2021 (UTC) |
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:::All right, so...reviewing some of your linguistics points. |
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:::So final unstressed (at least unstressed) ''-inn'' is always {{IPA-is|-ɪn|}}, not {{IPA-is|-ɪnn|}}? I'll keep that especially in mind going forward, and fix existing IPAs with {{IPA-is|-ɪnn|}} when I reencounter them. |
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:::But as for doubled consonants themselves... There've been a lot of inconsistent details about that. [[Icelandic phonology]] (already acknowledged to be problematic) uses doubled consonant IPA {{IPA|[CC]}} only, and it was like that even before I got there. Wiktionary entries for Icelandic terms use {{IPA|[Cː]}} notation, so pretty much the same deal. As for the external references, [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282778942_Phonetic_Transcription_Guideline_Icelandic Eiríkur Rögnvaldsson (2003)] and [https://notendur.hi.is/eirikur/ipv.pdf (2020)] use ungeminated consonant IPA, but [http://www.linguisticsnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/Gussmann_2011_Getting_your_head_around_the_vowel_system_of_Modern_Icelandic.pdf Gussmann (2011)] and [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/342788595_A_Phonetic_Illustration_of_the_Sound_System_of_Icelandic Flego–Berkson (2020)] use geminated consonant IPA, and the Flego–Berkson in particular present acoustic data on the audible durations of short and long vowels and single and double consonants. It seems there are different approaches to notating doubled consonants, and the [[Icelandic phonology]] article, Wiktionary, Gussmann and Flego–Berkson all preferring to show geminated consonant IPA, and [[Help:IPA/Icelandic]] in particular has noted (not my edits) that vowel length is not phonemic, though I can appreciate how that can change if consonant length distinction becomes lost. Now, it's possible there could be a lot of errors all over these places, and that you may be entirely correct, but it still remains that the only third party reference I've been able to find that insists on single consonant IPA comes from just one person, Eiríkur Rögnvaldsson. Additional third party citations and verification might be helpful, otherwise it contradicts other references and (for what they're worth) previously established practices on these wikis. And, yes, assuming you are fluent in Icelandic, I know it may sound strange for a non-speaker to request additional verification. But quite simply, the readily readable references are contradicting each other on whether consonant length is to be considered contrastive. When there's such a conflict of references, I'm inclined to use the notation that preserves rather than eliminates contrasts. |
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:::Now when it comes to knowing how to divide compound words into morphemes, I'm gradually picking this up especially for geographical terms with recurring vocabulary (''á'', ''blá'', ''borg'', ''breiða'', ''brú'', ''bær'', ''dalur'', ''ey'', ''fjall'', ''fjörður'', ''foss'', ''gjá'', ''göng'', ''hlíð'', ''hraun'', ''hreppur'', ''hús'', ''hver'', ''höfn'', ''jökull'', ''kirkja'', ''land'', ''nes'', ''rauð'', ''reykja'', ''vatn'', ''vegur'', ''vík'', etc.) and their inflections (nominative, genitive, singular, plural, gender, definite articles, other recurring suffixes, etc.). Most of these haven't been difficult to figure out, as there have been a lot of repeating patterns, and most of these morphemes have full declension tables at their Wiktionary entries and other online Icelandic dictionaries. If I'm ''really'' uncertain where terms are divided up, I may ask for help, as I've already started doing since you initially contacted me. - [[User:Gilgamesh~enwiki|Gilgamesh]] ([[User talk:Gilgamesh~enwiki#top|talk]]) 03:13, 24 May 2021 (UTC) |
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:::{{ping|Þjarkur}} I went to revisit some more of my own IPA edits, and I got to [[Gunnars saga Keldugnúpsfífls]], saw the {{IPA|[knups]}}, and thought, "oh, that must have been one of my brainfarts from earlier," and changed it back to {{IPA|[knufs]}}. But afterwards I had a hunch, checked the edit history, and saw that you were the one who had changed what actually been my own earlier {{IPA|[knufs]}} to {{IPA|[knups]}} for ''gnúps''. Now, I can understand {{IPA|[xs]}} having become {{IPA|[ks]}} in recent generations, as this was specifically noted by Eiríkur Rögnvaldsson (2020) as a younger trend. (Previously all existing Wikipedia examples had used {{IPA|[xs]}} before I started adding {{IPA|[ks]}} as an alternative based on Eiríkur Rögnvaldsson (2020), which was itself before you started changing them all to {{IPA|[ks]}}.) But the preexisting [[Icelandic orthography]] article has {{IPA|[scɪfs]}} for ''skips'', and as a rule ''p'' becoming {{IPA|[f]}} before ''s'', ''k'' or ''t''. And that same Eiríkur Rögnvaldsson (2020) reference doesn't specifically address any similar case for {{IPA|[fs]}} vs. {{IPA|[ps]}}. So you're saying that the ''p'' being {{IPA|[f]}} before ''s'' rule is...not a rule at all? It's false? If it's actually false, then the Icelandic linguistics articles may be in even worse shape than I thought. - [[User:Gilgamesh~enwiki|Gilgamesh]] ([[User talk:Gilgamesh~enwiki#top|talk]]) 12:34, 24 May 2021 (UTC) |
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:::{{ping|Þjarkur}} I see you edited [[Help:IPA/Icelandic]]. But you haven't addressed the concerns about '''conflicting references''' regarding geminate consonants. We still need additional reliable third-party references, beyond just Eiríkur Rögnvaldsson. You said IPA transcription of geminate consonants are not usually done, but we still have a whole body of Wiktionary entries (none of which I wrote) indicating geminate consonants. |
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:::This may also overlap with a concern I've raised at [[Talk:Icelandic phonology]]. Specific levels of phonological representation. You're insisting the usage in [[Template:IPA-is]] ought to be phonemic, but it uses [square brackets] which are ''phonetic'' usage. Use of /slashes/ is phonic/phonemic, and use of ⫽double slashes⫽ is morphophonemic. Either the template needs to be changed to a different level of representation, or phonetic IPA needs to be allowed. |
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:::I've also raised proposals in [[Help talk:IPA/Icelandic]] about using different notation conventions to improve readability, such as clearer long diphthongs, the use of only one height of mid vowel symbols, and especially replacing the symbols for the central rounded vowels to actual central rounded vowel symbols. All in all, I proposed making the following IPA substitutions: |
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:::* Replace {{IPA|[ʰp ʰt ʰc ʰk]}} with {{IPA|[hp ht hc hk]}} because the preaspiration is much more pronounced than the postaspiration of {{IPA|[pʰ tʰ cʰ kʰ]}}. '''This change was carried out.''' In truth there was no comment to this proposal (it was there for a while but other users kept skipping it and replying to other threads instead), but the {{IPA|[hp ht hc hk]}} usage was already being used at [[Icelandic phonology]] and overwhelmingly in Wiktionary entries. |
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:::* Use clear tied diphthongs {{IPA|[a͡i]}} instead of {{IPA|[ai]}}, especially for the clarity of long diphthongs {{IPA|[a͡iː]}} because {{IPA|[aiː]}} is visually ambiguous to users with only general IPA knowledge, as it looks like {{IPA|[a]}} followed by {{IPA|[iː]}} rather than a unitary phonete. Another user objected to any use off the tie bar for diphthongs, and ultimately consensus could not be reached. '''The proposal was withdrawn.''' The user who objected most strongly to tied diphthongs also admitted that he didn't read the rest of the proposal text anyway. |
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:::* Use common mid vowel symbols without specifying vowel height. Current practice as open-mid symbols for monophthongs {{IPA|[ɛ, œ, ɔ]}} and close-mid symbols for the onset of diphthongs {{IPA|[ei, ou]}} except strangely for {{IPA|[œi]}}. I proposed replacing every instance of {{IPA|[ɛ]}} with {{IPA|[e]}}, and every instance of {{IPA|[ɔ]}} with {{IPA|[o]}}. Depending on whether my central vowel proposal proposal is adopted, {{IPA|[œ]}} would be replaced with {{IPA|[ɵ]}} (using central rounded vowel symbols) or {{IPA|[ø]}} (using front rounded vowel symbols). And this applies to the phonic and morphophonemic representation. A relatively more narrowly phonetic representation with [square brackets] could allow for realizations where they actually exist, such as {{IPA|[ɪɛ]}} instead of {{IPA|/eː/}}. '''Not enough users could form opinions on this for consensus to be established.''' It's worth noting that where Wikipedia has been using {{IPA|[œi]}} for ''au'', Wiktionary entries have been using {{IPA|[øy]}}. I would propose {{IPA|[ɵi]}} instead for this diphthong. |
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:::* Use central rounded vowel symbols for the central rounded vowel phonemes. This would involve replacing every instance of {{IPA|[ʏ]}} with {{IPA|[ʉ]}} (the IPA has never formally adopted {{IPA|[ᵿ]}}), and every instance of {{IPA|[œ]}} with either {{IPA|[ɵ]}} or {{IPA|[ɞ]}} (depending on whatever consensus can be reached in regards to my mid vowel symbol proposal). This is necessitated by the confusing rule that velar consonants ''k'' and ''g'' become palatal consonants after front vowels, but not after {{IPA|[œ, ʏ]}} because they are central vowels rather than front vowels (and several of the external references corroborate this). Someone with basic IPA knowledge learns that {{IPA|[œ, ʏ]}} are front vowels, and at least one other user in [[Talk:Icelandic phonology]] raised this discrepency in regards to Icelandic. In truth, many of the central vowel symbols have only been fully adopted by the IPA in recent decades, so I can understand why it may not have become convention for Icelandic IPA in earlier decades. '''Not enough users could form opinions on this for consensus to be established.''' |
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:::* Clearly mark semivowels of diphthongs so that long diphthongs are easier to read. {{IPA|[ai̯, aːi̯]}} instead of {{IPA|[ai, aiː]}}. I proposed this after withdrawing the proposal for tied diphthongs. In truth, I still don't favor this proposal for the same reason I prefer tied diphthongs. '''No one responded.''' |
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:::As it is, it has been difficult to locate and corral other editors knowledgeable enough in this particular language topic to participate in discussions and consensus-building. I think their recurring absence has contributed to too many (I'm assuming otherwise well-meaning) lone editors spreading misconceptions among the articles by using Wikipedia as its own reference (a circular reference). For example, the assumption that {{IPA|[m n ɲ ŋ r l]}} can only be voiceless {{IPA|[m̥ n̥ ɲ̊ ŋ̊ r̥ l̥]}} in proximity to other voiceless consonants or stops, leading to the spread of erroneous notation like {{IPA|[tl̥a]}} for ''lla''. The body text description in [[Icelandic phonology]] still describes that as the case. I have not edited that description as parts of it feel more like an (otherwise well-worded) essay someone jotted out and there are no citations or footnotes for most of the claims. Most of that article probably needs to be completely rewritten from the ground up (and possibly also the [[Icelandic orthography]] article), and that particular task would probably be biting off far more than I can chew. - [[User:Gilgamesh~enwiki|Gilgamesh]] ([[User talk:Gilgamesh~enwiki#top|talk]]) 23:14, 24 May 2021 (UTC) |
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:::I should also note that your recent edits to [[Help:IPA/Icelandic]] have made that page self-contradictory now. The page already noted (not my edits): "Vowels are usually long if they are stressed and followed by no more than one consonant, double consonants counting as more than one. Vowel length is not phonemic." With some kind of contrast existing between {{IPA|[VCː]}} and {{IPA|[VːC]}}, it goes to reason that either vowel length can be non-phonemic or consonant length can be non-phonemic, but not both at the same time. Ultimately the wiki's articles on this topic need to not contradict each other, but again, this comes down to conflicting references on issues such as the contrastiveness of consonant length, and the fact that all the third-party published references insisting consonant length is non-phonemic appear to come from a single source: Eiríkur Rögnvaldsson. If he were the only source or no one contradicted him on this point then this wouldn't be the issue it is, but he's contradicted by multiple other references. We need additional references and verification, otherwise we can't just assume as a matter of fact that consonant length must be treated as completely non-phonemic. - [[User:Gilgamesh~enwiki|Gilgamesh]] ([[User talk:Gilgamesh~enwiki#top|talk]]) 00:44, 25 May 2021 (UTC) |
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:{{ping|Thjarkur}} Need review of IPA at [[Árbær]]. In particular, the IPA for Ártúnsholt, Norðlingaholt and Selás. |
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:* From what I could gather, Ártúnsholt is split up as ''Ár·túns·holt'', but I could be wrong. |
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:* The IPA for Norðlingaholt is uncertain with the ''norðlinga'' part. Eiríkur Rögnvaldsson (2020) says ''rðl'' is pronounced {{IPA|[rtl]}}, which I rendered {{IPA|[(r)tl]}} for the same reasons ''rl'' is rendered {{IPA|[(r)tl]}}. I know ''norðlinga'' probably wouldn't have that IPA if it were split into ''norð·linga'', except that ''-lingur'' is a suffix fused to ''norð'' rather than a separate word, right? |
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:* Selás is split up as ''Sel·ás'', right? I also kept the vowel in ''sel-'' short because in this usage it behaves like a prefix...right? |
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:That's all for the time being. - [[User:Gilgamesh~enwiki|Gilgamesh]] ([[User talk:Gilgamesh~enwiki#top|talk]]) 22:49, 29 May 2021 (UTC) |
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== Third opinion request == |
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Hi, |
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I saw ([https://xtools.wmflabs.org/articleinfo/en.wikipedia.org/Levantine_Arabic here]) that you edited [[Levantine Arabic]] in the past. |
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We have an ongoing debate about the content of the summary and the infobox [[Talk:Levantine_Arabic#Current_version_and_proposed_modifications|on the talk page]]. As you profile says you are "interested in linguistics" and because you have a long experience on Wikipedia, it would be great to have your opinion. |
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Thanks for any help you can provide. [[User:A455bcd9|A455bcd9]] ([[User talk:A455bcd9|talk]]) 09:46, 10 October 2021 (UTC) |
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</div> |
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:I'm not available for any significant analysis or commentary at the moment. I may be available in the coming days. - [[User:Gilgamesh~enwiki|Gilgamesh]] ([[User talk:Gilgamesh~enwiki#top|talk]]) 23:02, 10 October 2021 (UTC) |
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</div> |
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Latest revision as of 13:23, 27 November 2024
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Dust-up on referencing
[edit]Hi Gilgamesh, I noticed the dust-up on referencing style at Younger Dryas, and I have something that may help next time. I discovered it too late for a timely comment there, and I probably wouldn't have wanted to get involved in the middle of it anyway, but here's a compromise alternative to think about, that might keep everyone happy, or at least reasonably unruffled, if this same situation recurs: it's List-defined references.
I believe I understand why you like 'exploded' refs (one per line): it's because when placed inline, it makes it much easier to find what is article text, and what is citation wikicode, so you can modify the article without getting all tangled up. I remember a horror show at the 'Eric Zemmour' article, where I simply couldn't find the running text of the lead paragraph, because it was a contentious topic and had so many citations that it was almost impossible to find the words of a single sentence strewn with numerous embedded citations. The spaghetti code at Zemmour made Dryas look like a paragon of minimalist architecture. It was completely unreadable, unmanageable, and uneditable, until I converted it to LDR, and even though it's still ridiculously overcited, at least the lead wikicode is easily readable now in the code-editing preview window. (The trade-off is that the "References" section is way longer than it needs to be now, but it's all tidy and orderly and it doesn't intrude when what you want to do is to edit the lead paragraph.)
If you want to see the old horror show, have a look at the wikicode for the first couple of paragraphs at 'Eric Zemmour' from revision 1057491695 of 27 November 2021, and then compare that to now: Eric Zemmour. The LDR style used in the current version gets you what you want, I believe, in minimizing the WP:CITECLUTTER. I'm pretty sure the other editor you were scrapping with wouldn't mind this style either, because if you edit the current Éric_Zemmour#References section, you'll see it's all nicely organized, alphabetical, and in the 'tight' style he prefers.
If you find that that use of LDRs is an acceptable solution for you and might be a viable compromise for your discussion partner, I hope it may help you in future discussions of this nature. Cheers, Mathglot (talk) 22:46, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
The article Jarom has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:
Not notable
While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.
You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.
Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Big Money Threepwood (talk) 18:38, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
Belated invitation to join the Twenty Year Society
[edit]
Dear Gilgamesh,
I'd like to extend this overdue but still cordial invitation to you to join the Twenty Year Society, an informal group for editors who've been participating in the Wikipedia project for twenty years or more.
Best regards, Chris Troutman (talk) 18:51, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
Nomination of Waters of Mormon for deletion
[edit]
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Waters of Mormon until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.Big Money Threepwood (talk) 04:47, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
20 Years!
[edit]Congratulations! I wish you another 20 years of great contributions! Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 12:53, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
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