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== Semi-protected edit request on 17 August 2016 ==
{{edit semi-protected|Mark Antony|answered=y}}


This request is to correct a few grammatical or typographical errors.
# In the first paragraph, "...Pacorus' conquest had capture much..." should become, "...Pacorus' conquest had captured much...".
# In the third paragraph, "...this is what Ventidius hoped would occur..." should become, "...this is what Ventidius had hoped would occur..."
# In the third paragraph, "...assassinated Orodes II in late 38 BC and succeeding him..." should become, "...assassinated Orodes II in late 38 BC, succeeding him..."
# In the fourth paragraph, "...if he invaded Parthian territory, and thereby steal..." should become, "...if he were to invade Parthian territory and thereby steal...".
# In the fourth paragraph, "...so he instead attacked and subdue the eastern..." should become, "...so he instead attacked and subdued the eastern...".

[[Special:Contributions/216.243.130.246|216.243.130.246]] ([[User talk:216.243.130.246|talk]]) 22:04, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

:Mostly done. #2 seems fine the way it is. Did the others either as suggested or with slightly different wording, and reworded the end of the last sentence for clarity. Thanks for catching these mistakes and awkward passages! [[User:P Aculeius|P Aculeius]] ([[User talk:P Aculeius|talk]]) 23:38, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

== Name of article ==

I know it's been thoroughly discussed and ruled upon but there is one argument I didn't see mentioned. Marcus Antonius is his proper, historical and correct name. Isn't (shouldn't) one of the major goals of WP to espouse knowledge? By allowing "Mark Antony" to be used as the title is misleading as to his true name. What's wrong with just having a redirect to his proper name? I understand the argument that most only know his anglicized name but this is supposed to be an encyclopedia. We, as the learned, should be doing all we can to stop the ignorance that seems to plague the world today. It's simple to place "anglicized: Mark Antony" in the first paragraph. [[User:Solri89|Solri89]] ([[User talk:Solri89|talk]]) 18:52, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

:I wouldn't mind the move at all, but at the same time we might need to reconsider current policy on Roman article titles, which supports the Anglicized name. I doubt there would be a consensus for that. And while I certainly prefer Latin for names like "Marcus", "Antonius", and (especially) "Pompeius", a lot of people prefer the versions with which they're most familiar. And then some writers vary the forms they use a little or waver between one and the other; for instance, "Tarquin" vs. "Tarquinius".


== Inconsistent authors ==
:We haven't been too dogmatic on Wikipedia, enforcing one person's preference on everyone else; while there's just one article title, references to a person within each article often vary according to the writer's preference. A degree of flexibility allows more people to feel comfortable about contributing, and doesn't really cause that much confusion. Too much rigidity isn't a good thing; I'd hate to see all the J's turned into I's, or the V's into U's (or vice versa). So, I really think we need a strong consensus before moving this article or changing the policy. [[User:P Aculeius|P Aculeius]] ([[User talk:P Aculeius|talk]]) 23:21, 28 August 2016 (UTC)


{{ping|Editoronthewiki}} Hello there. In your [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Mark_Antony&diff=1147113267&oldid=1146974052&diffmode=source recent edits], you added two references to – presumably? – the same book but credited two different authors, one Barry Strauss and one Ian Davidson. Could you clarify in the article as to which is which?
You make a very good argument on rigidity. And since the article does state his birth name, I'll agree and concede to your point. [[User:Solri89|Solri89]] ([[User talk:Solri89|talk]]) 01:31, 29 August 2016 (UTC)


Also, if you're interested in further additions to the article, I'd highly recommend finding if possible a copy of CAH<sup>2</sup> 9 (1994), which provides a detailed narrative of this period in chapters 11–12. Morstein-Marx's ''Julius Caesar and the Roman people'' (2021) I think gives the best recent analysis of whether Caesar really wanted to be king and includes including the diadem incident and the differences between the five sources: Dio, Appian, Suetonius, Plutarch (wrong as usual), and Nicholaus. [[User:Ifly6|Ifly6]] ([[User talk:Ifly6|talk]]) 00:54, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
:If the non-english version was used in the title, too many english language speakers might not be able to find the article or identify it. The name "Mark Anthony" is the one most common, familiar and popularly used by the UNEDUCATED and native english speakers, as well as entertainment and other media,at least in the USA; the uneducated need to find this info maybe more than the "educated and enlightened". So in order for it to be findable and recognizable by the most people who use english as first language, the name most commonly known is the one that they should be able to locate. Good thing though, that his real Latin name is the first one used in the article to tell who he was. That's essential and educational. <ref> https://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/Mark%20Anthony </ref> and <ref>https://www.ancient-origins.net/history-famous-people/unraveling-history-final-fates-children-cleopatra-vii-005230</ref>
[[User:Meat Eating Orchid|Meat Eating Orchid]] ([[User talk:Meat Eating Orchid|talk]]) 12:40, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
*{{ping|Ifly6}} Ah, I'm sorry about that! fixed. Thank you for the recommendations as well. [[User:Editoronthewiki|Editoronthewiki]] ([[User talk:Editoronthewiki|talk]]) 01:07, 29 March 2023 (UTC)


== Dubious ==
{{reflist-talk}}


There's a number of dubious claims that I've reworked rather quickly.
== Novel ==
* In the lede, the senate doesn't declare war: the people (in the centuries) do.
* The [[First Triumvirate]] isn't some kind of backroom coup. The allies were unpopular, knew it, and any domination was shortlived. See eg Gruen ''LGRR'' (1995) or our own article on the First Triumvirate.
* Legate is not a ''rank''. It is a position.
* The death of Julia in 54 had little to do with the falling out between Pompey and Caesar; again see Gruen ''LGRR'' (1995).
* Milo is not a Pompeian ally; he gets thrown under the bus immediately. Nor is he an "optimate". The "optimates" don't exist... Milo's activities are just as self-serving as Clodius'.
* The pontifex maximus is not the {{tq|head of the [sic] Roman religion}}. The pontifices, augurs, and quindecemviri are all separate priests; there is no "head".
* Antony took over Curio's place in the tribunes; the idea of "both Pompey and Caesar lay down their commands" did not emerge from Antony. The idea that Caesar was afraid of prosecution is dubious. See Morstein-Marx ''Caesar'' (2021) App'x 4; also [[Caesar's civil war]] and [[Julius Caesar]].
* Antony was not expelled from Rome; Antony left after the senate said his safety could not be guaranteed.
* Caesar wasn't declared a traitor, just ''hostis''.
* A propraetor need not previously be a praetor. Cato in 58&nbsp;BC is pro quaestore pro praetore. Similarly, proconsuls many times by this point had been appointed without holding the consulship.
* Lots of "Antony is Caesar's top general" fluff. [[WP:PEACOCK]].
* Caesar was made dictator in absentia in 48 after Pharsalus. The 11-day dictatorship was in 49, when Caesar in Italy. These should not be confused. Caesar did not sail to Italy then hop back to Greece to pursue Pompey. He pursued him directly through Asia minor.
* Meier ''Caesar'' (1995), Badian in OCD<sup>4</sup>, etc agree that Caesar had no knowable constitutional programme.
* Octavian never called himself {{Tq|Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus}}.
* Lepidus was ''elected'' pontifex maximus, albeit irregularly.
* Octavian was ''elected'' consul in August 43, albeit irregularly.
* There's no reason to set up the proscriptions then not talk about Antony's role in getting Cicero killed and then talk about Cicero minor getting to announce Antony's death.
* When someone starves you to interdicting shipment, you don't shift your sympathies towards that person: {{!tq|The lack of food in Rome caused the public to blame the Triumvirate and shift its sympathies towards Pompey.}}
* {{strike|This is nonsense and I lack the time to figure it out:


: {{tq2|To secure the peace, Octavian betrothed his three-year-old nephew and Antony's stepson [[Marcus Claudius Marcellus (Julio-Claudian dynasty)|Marcus Claudius Marcellus]] to Sextus' daughter [[Pompeia (daughter of Sextus Pompeius)|Pompeia]]. (Appian, ''The Civil Wars'', Book 5, 73.) }}
Can you add the 1997 novel by Allan Massie (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Massie). Massie's novels on this period are very highly regarded. His knowledge of the sources is outstanding, and his gift for portraying character exceptional. [[User:Commiades|Commiades]] ([[User talk:Commiades|talk]]) 23:42, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
: Obviously two boys cannot both marry the same girl.}} https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Mark_Antony&diff=prev&oldid=1213209226. Fixed. [[User:Ifly6|Ifly6]] ([[User talk:Ifly6|talk]]) 18:02, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
* "Going native" as a casus belli should be cited directly with a quote since it's a rather extraordinary claim. [[WP:EXTRAORDINARY]].
Further work on this article is needed. The sourcing in many portions is just a paraphrase of Plutarch and Appian. It isn't as if there are not good sources on Antony and his times. CAH<sup>2</sup> vols 9–10 might be a good start at least for the events. It's strange also that this article is much more a recounting of the events generally than specifically Antony's part in them. The perspective of the article definitely needs shifting. [[User:Ifly6|Ifly6]] ([[User talk:Ifly6|talk]]) 04:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)


== Sources ==
[[User:Commiades|Commiades]] ([[User talk:Commiades|talk]]) 00:02, 3 September 2016 (UTC) Massie also portrays Mark Antony from the perspective of other narrators in his novels Caesar and Augustus.
There are modern sources:
* {{Cite book |last=Tatum |first=W Jeffrey |title=A noble ruin: Mark Antony, civil war, and the collapse of the Roman republic |date=December 2023 |publisher=Oxford University Press |isbn=978-0-19-769490-9 }}
* {{cite encyclopedia |last=Welch |first=Kathryn |title=Antonius, Marcus (2), Roman consul and triumvir, 83–30 BCE |date=19 Apr 2023 |encyclopedia=Oxford Classical Dictionary online |publisher=Oxford University Press |doi=10.1093/acrefore/9780199381135.013.547 |isbn=978-0-19-938113-5}}


Note also re some of the older sources, in Welch's 2023 OCD Online article—
== External links modified ==


{{tq2|Modern scholars frequently characterize Antonius as a victim, first of Cicero’s rhetoric and then of young Caesar’s attacks on his character and ability. Even more problematic is the tendency of modern biographers to accept Plutarch’s moral agenda uncritically.}}
Hello fellow Wikipedians,


The note given at the end of {{tq|uncritically}} is—
I have just modified 2 external links on [[Mark Antony]]. Please take a moment to review [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=781304146 my edit]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110716100018/http://www.tyndalehouse.com/egypt/ptolemies/cleopatra_vii.htm to http://www.tyndalehouse.com/Egypt/ptolemies/Cleopatra_vii.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121012091837/http://www.ancientlibrary.com/smith-bio/0272.html to http://www.ancientlibrary.com/smith-bio/0272.html


{{tq2|E.g. Eleanor Goltz Huzar, Mark Antony: A Biography (London: Croom Helm, 1978); Adrian Goldsworthy, Antony and Cleopatra (New Haven, CT: Yale University Press, 2010); and Pat Southern, Mark Antony: A Life (Stroud, UK: Amberley Publishing, 2010).}}
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.


If someone is wanting to take a stab on this article, I would definitely get Tatum (2023). Some interpretation and conclusions may differ from the more traditional biographies. [[User:Ifly6|Ifly6]] ([[User talk:Ifly6|talk]]) 08:12, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
{{sourcecheck|checked=true|needhelp=}}


:The BMCR review was very positive. https://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2024/2024.11.51/. [[User:Ifly6|Ifly6]] ([[User talk:Ifly6|talk]]) 02:25, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
Cheers.—[[User:InternetArchiveBot|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">InternetArchiveBot</span>''']] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:InternetArchiveBot|Report bug]])</span> 11:47, 20 May 2017 (UTC)


==Wiki Education assignment: Introduction to Mythology==
== everyone's a Cretic ==
{{dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment | course = Wikipedia:Wiki_Ed/Yavapai_College/Introduction_to_Mythology_(Spring_2024) | assignments = [[User:Wgronwald6|Wgronwald6]] | start_date = 2024-01-16 | end_date = 2024-05-10 }}


His [[cognomen]] is mentioned only obliquely (in his father's name). Why? —[[User:Tamfang|Tamfang]] ([[User talk:Tamfang|talk]]) 07:44, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
<span class="wikied-assignment" style="font-size:85%;">— Assignment last updated by [[User:Wgronwald6|Wgronwald6]] ([[User talk:Wgronwald6|talk]]) 04:45, 19 March 2024 (UTC)</span>
:Not all cognomina were hereditary; in fact a great many were never passed down to subsequent generations, especially those that were derisive, and became attached to rather infamous individuals. In the case of Antony's father, it was a personal cognomen. He was supposed to clear the sea of pirates, and attacked Crete, where the pirates had been given safe harbour, but he was defeated and made a treaty with the Cretans—thus earning a surname that would normally mean "made of chalk", but resembles a ''cognomen ex virtute'', which would have meant "conqueror of the Cretans". Not the sort of name that could be vindicated by a glorious career—and Antony's father died in ignominy soon after it was bestowed upon him. There was no particular reason to apply it to his sons, and no reason for them to want it—so like many cognomina, it was ephemeral, and never applied to Antony. [[User:P Aculeius|P Aculeius]] ([[User talk:P Aculeius|talk]]) 13:38, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 02:25, 30 November 2024

Former featured articleMark Antony is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on July 8, 2004.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
November 25, 2003Featured article candidatePromoted
November 26, 2006Featured article reviewDemoted
Current status: Former featured article

Inconsistent authors

[edit]

@Editoronthewiki: Hello there. In your recent edits, you added two references to – presumably? – the same book but credited two different authors, one Barry Strauss and one Ian Davidson. Could you clarify in the article as to which is which?

Also, if you're interested in further additions to the article, I'd highly recommend finding if possible a copy of CAH2 9 (1994), which provides a detailed narrative of this period in chapters 11–12. Morstein-Marx's Julius Caesar and the Roman people (2021) I think gives the best recent analysis of whether Caesar really wanted to be king and includes including the diadem incident and the differences between the five sources: Dio, Appian, Suetonius, Plutarch (wrong as usual), and Nicholaus. Ifly6 (talk) 00:54, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Dubious

[edit]

There's a number of dubious claims that I've reworked rather quickly.

  • In the lede, the senate doesn't declare war: the people (in the centuries) do.
  • The First Triumvirate isn't some kind of backroom coup. The allies were unpopular, knew it, and any domination was shortlived. See eg Gruen LGRR (1995) or our own article on the First Triumvirate.
  • Legate is not a rank. It is a position.
  • The death of Julia in 54 had little to do with the falling out between Pompey and Caesar; again see Gruen LGRR (1995).
  • Milo is not a Pompeian ally; he gets thrown under the bus immediately. Nor is he an "optimate". The "optimates" don't exist... Milo's activities are just as self-serving as Clodius'.
  • The pontifex maximus is not the head of the [sic] Roman religion. The pontifices, augurs, and quindecemviri are all separate priests; there is no "head".
  • Antony took over Curio's place in the tribunes; the idea of "both Pompey and Caesar lay down their commands" did not emerge from Antony. The idea that Caesar was afraid of prosecution is dubious. See Morstein-Marx Caesar (2021) App'x 4; also Caesar's civil war and Julius Caesar.
  • Antony was not expelled from Rome; Antony left after the senate said his safety could not be guaranteed.
  • Caesar wasn't declared a traitor, just hostis.
  • A propraetor need not previously be a praetor. Cato in 58 BC is pro quaestore pro praetore. Similarly, proconsuls many times by this point had been appointed without holding the consulship.
  • Lots of "Antony is Caesar's top general" fluff. WP:PEACOCK.
  • Caesar was made dictator in absentia in 48 after Pharsalus. The 11-day dictatorship was in 49, when Caesar in Italy. These should not be confused. Caesar did not sail to Italy then hop back to Greece to pursue Pompey. He pursued him directly through Asia minor.
  • Meier Caesar (1995), Badian in OCD4, etc agree that Caesar had no knowable constitutional programme.
  • Octavian never called himself Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus.
  • Lepidus was elected pontifex maximus, albeit irregularly.
  • Octavian was elected consul in August 43, albeit irregularly.
  • There's no reason to set up the proscriptions then not talk about Antony's role in getting Cicero killed and then talk about Cicero minor getting to announce Antony's death.
  • When someone starves you to interdicting shipment, you don't shift your sympathies towards that person: The lack of food in Rome caused the public to blame the Triumvirate and shift its sympathies towards Pompey.
  • This is nonsense and I lack the time to figure it out:

To secure the peace, Octavian betrothed his three-year-old nephew and Antony's stepson Marcus Claudius Marcellus to Sextus' daughter Pompeia. (Appian, The Civil Wars, Book 5, 73.)

Obviously two boys cannot both marry the same girl. https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Mark_Antony&diff=prev&oldid=1213209226. Fixed. Ifly6 (talk) 18:02, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Going native" as a casus belli should be cited directly with a quote since it's a rather extraordinary claim. WP:EXTRAORDINARY.

Further work on this article is needed. The sourcing in many portions is just a paraphrase of Plutarch and Appian. It isn't as if there are not good sources on Antony and his times. CAH2 vols 9–10 might be a good start at least for the events. It's strange also that this article is much more a recounting of the events generally than specifically Antony's part in them. The perspective of the article definitely needs shifting. Ifly6 (talk) 04:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

[edit]

There are modern sources:

  • Tatum, W Jeffrey (December 2023). A noble ruin: Mark Antony, civil war, and the collapse of the Roman republic. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-769490-9.
  • Welch, Kathryn (19 Apr 2023). "Antonius, Marcus (2), Roman consul and triumvir, 83–30 BCE". Oxford Classical Dictionary online. Oxford University Press. doi:10.1093/acrefore/9780199381135.013.547. ISBN 978-0-19-938113-5.

Note also re some of the older sources, in Welch's 2023 OCD Online article—

Modern scholars frequently characterize Antonius as a victim, first of Cicero’s rhetoric and then of young Caesar’s attacks on his character and ability. Even more problematic is the tendency of modern biographers to accept Plutarch’s moral agenda uncritically.

The note given at the end of uncritically is—

E.g. Eleanor Goltz Huzar, Mark Antony: A Biography (London: Croom Helm, 1978); Adrian Goldsworthy, Antony and Cleopatra (New Haven, CT: Yale University Press, 2010); and Pat Southern, Mark Antony: A Life (Stroud, UK: Amberley Publishing, 2010).

If someone is wanting to take a stab on this article, I would definitely get Tatum (2023). Some interpretation and conclusions may differ from the more traditional biographies. Ifly6 (talk) 08:12, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The BMCR review was very positive. https://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2024/2024.11.51/. Ifly6 (talk) 02:25, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: Introduction to Mythology

[edit]

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 January 2024 and 10 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Wgronwald6 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Wgronwald6 (talk) 04:45, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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