Talk:Miss Cleo: Difference between revisions
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== |
== Source for the character "Miss Cleo" == |
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At present the article has "The Psychic Readers Network is said to have coined the title 'Miss Cleo'" and cites {{cite news|work=Erie Times-News|title=Phone psychics' scam follows script|date=December 1, 2001|page=2}} I checked the web sites goerie.com and timespublishingcompany.com for "Phone psychics' scam follows script" or "Miss Cleo" but neither of them has this article on line. |
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And no, I don't think the previous version of this article is "well-sourced". The very fact that it has to be slapped with a POV tag indicates we have a problem. Sources like the Smoking Gun, Court TV, Wahgwaan Entertainment (what is that anyway?), obscure local papers and tv stations are more or less sensationalistic tabloids of one form or another. |
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The puzzle is this [http://www.seattlepi.com/lifestyle/article/Miss-Cleo-left-a-trail-of-deception-in-Seattle-1081919.php seattlepi.com article] which says "Back then, she was known as Ree Perris and had written a play called 'For Women Only.' In it, Perris played a Jamaican woman named Cleo." If that's accurate then Youree Harris created the character and the Psychic Readers Network adopted it. |
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There are probably a couple of decent sources in there that could be used but given that this is a BLP let's play it safe here.[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 07:44, 26 July 2011 (UTC) |
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For now, I decided to not update the article as I'd want to see better sourcing for who developed the character. At one time the Psychic Readers Network seems to have owned the rights to it. |
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:Wiping the article out like that in one blast is disruptive. Do not do this again. Whether one likes the sources or not does not have any bearing on whether they are considered [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] per Wikipedia's definition of the term. [[User:SchuminWeb|SchuminWeb]] ([[User talk:SchuminWeb|Talk]]) 19:13, 26 July 2011 (UTC) |
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::It's not about liking or not liking them, it's about the fact that they are sensationalist junk being used in a BLP article. THAT'S disruptive.[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 19:19, 26 July 2011 (UTC) |
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FWIW, the same seattlepi.com article says she was also known as Ree Perris, Youree Cleomili, Youree Dell Harris, Youree Perris, Rae Dell Harris, Cleomili Perris Youree, Cleomili Harris, and finally, well known as Miss Cleo. --[[User:Marc Kupper|Marc Kupper]]|[[User talk:Marc Kupper|talk]] 20:13, 5 February 2018 (UTC) |
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:::Again, sensationalist or not does not affect whether or not it is considered "reliable" by our definition. [[User:SchuminWeb|SchuminWeb]] ([[User talk:SchuminWeb|Talk]]) 19:23, 26 July 2011 (UTC) |
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== Requested move 4 December 2022 == |
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::::So the fact that this is a BLP means absolutely nothing to you? And you're an administrator?[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 19:31, 26 July 2011 (UTC) |
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::::'''"[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons Be very firm about the use of high quality sources.]"'''[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 19:33, 26 July 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::It's my understanding that both CourtTV and SmokingGun have been discussed at RSN and deemed to qualify as reliable sources. Both are operated by large media companies. <b>[[User:Will Beback|<font color="#595454">Will Beback</font>]] [[User talk:Will Beback|<font color="#C0C0C0">talk</font>]] </b> 21:18, 26 July 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::I see material is also being deleted that's sourced to [[Slate (magazine)]], on the grounds that it isn't a reliable source either. [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Miss_Cleo&curid=529994&diff=441618853&oldid=441589249] Could editors please explain why they do not think these are reliable sources? <b>[[User:Will Beback|<font color="#595454">Will Beback</font>]] [[User talk:Will Beback|<font color="#C0C0C0">talk</font>]] </b> 23:11, 26 July 2011 (UTC) |
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::::::I don't have a problem with the existing sources. We just need more of them in a few spots. [[User:SchuminWeb|SchuminWeb]] ([[User talk:SchuminWeb|Talk]]) 01:45, 27 July 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::::Will Beback, I assume you're referring to the Slate piece entitled "Yah, Mon, I predict you're going to jail.", and written by someone who claims to be in a personal financial dispute with the subject of the article? Is this the sort of ''high quality sources'' that we're going to be ''insisting upon'' for biographies of living persons? --[[User:Demiurge1000|Demiurge1000]] ([[User_talk:Demiurge1000|talk]]) 02:12, 27 July 2011 (UTC) |
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::::::::I'm referring to a large number of deleted sources and cited material. In this instance, the ''Slate'' article is titled "With Psychic Friends Like These …: The lawsuits pile up for Miss Cleo" written by [[Dahlia Lithwick]], a senior editor.[http://www.slate.com/?id=2063700] I don't see any indication that it's an opinion piece. See also the concerns about the other deleted sources, above. <b>[[User:Will Beback|<font color="#595454">Will Beback</font>]] [[User talk:Will Beback|<font color="#C0C0C0">talk</font>]] </b> 01:23, 31 July 2011 (UTC) |
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:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of a [[WP:RM|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.'' |
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==Removed material== |
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I removed some material from a dead link and also it didn't really seem that relevant or mentioned in any type of context. --[[User:Malerooster|Malerooster]] ([[User talk:Malerooster|talk]]) 00:49, 25 October 2012 (UTC) |
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'''No consensus to move'''. After much-extended time for discussion, there is no consensus for a move at this time, and no reason to believe that a consensus will form if discussion is extended further. [[User:BD2412|<span style="background:gold">'''''BD2412'''''</span>]] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 23:53, 31 December 2022 (UTC) |
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== WTF? == |
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[[:Miss Cleo]] → {{no redirect|Youree Dell Harris}} – Proposing rename because the article is about actress/media personality Youree Dell Harris, and "Miss Cleo" is essentially a character she frequently played. I don't think it would fall under [[WP:COMMONNAME]] and [[WP:PSEUDONYM]] because Miss Cleo wasn't a stage name she could freely use, it was a character created and owned by Psychic Readers Network who Harris was hired to play, and her other credits like voice over have been under her real name. In recent high quality entertainment sources like [https://ew.com/tv/call-me-miss-cleo-trailer-hbo-max-documentary/ EW], it refers to the portrayer as Youree Dell Harris and Miss Cleo as a character. For another precedent for a performer primarily known for one character, [[Cassandra Peterson]]'s article is not named Elvira. --[[User:Shivertimbers433|Shivertimbers433]] ([[User talk:Shivertimbers433|talk]]) 23:06, 4 December 2022 (UTC) <small>— '''''Relisting.''''' [[User:Robertsky|– robertsky]] ([[User talk:Robertsky|talk]]) 16:40, 15 December 2022 (UTC)</small> |
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I turned to his article to help source an assignment on Miss Cleo and found it so gutted as to be useless. Little to no mention seems to be made of the various suits and bans against her. Are the pro-Cleo forces controlling this article? 07:58, 11 May 2013 (UTC) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/71.1.205.148|71.1.205.148]] ([[User talk:71.1.205.148|talk]]) </span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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*'''Support''' per nom.--[[User:Ortizesp|Ortizesp]] ([[User talk:Ortizesp|talk]]) 14:43, 5 December 2022 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose'''. Miss Cleo is what's notable; Youree Harris is only notable because of Miss Cleo. If we want to make a separate article for Youree Harris the person, that's fine, but I suspect it may fail [[WP:N]]. I'd rewrite the article from this point of view, something like ''"'''Miss Cleo''' was a spokeswoman for psychic pay-per-call service Psychic Readers Network, portrayed by Youree Dell Harris in a series of television commercials that aired from 1997 to 2003."'' [[User:162 etc.|162 etc.]] ([[User talk:162 etc.|talk]]) 17:53, 5 December 2022 (UTC) |
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== WP:NPOV issue == |
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*'''Support''' per [[Cassandra Peterson]], [[Larry Vincent]]. Those are actors who portrayed a character, but their articles are biographies of the actor, like this is a biography of Harris. For a character, we can see how articles like [[Flo (Progressive)]] have no biographical detail of the actor. I don't think there's enough content to justify separate pages for Harris and Miss Cleo, but I could be mistaken. – [[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]] ([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 20:45, 6 December 2022 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' per Muboshgu. [[User:Shwcz|Shwcz]] ([[User talk:Shwcz|talk]]) 15:54, 7 December 2022 (UTC) |
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I believe that making the claim that someone ''is'' a psychic is to imply that there really ''are'' "psychics" and by extension that psychic phenomena ''are'' real. This is a controversial and hotly debated subject. And I believe that for an article to make such a claim is a violation of Wikipedia's policy of always writing with a [[WP:NPOV|neutral point of view]], stating a personal opinion rather than stating an unbiased fact. I have two suggestions for correcting this:<br> |
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*'''Support''' per nom, Muboshgu, and my 2015 comments at [[Talk:Miss_Cleo/Archive_2#RFC:_How_to_describe_Miss_Cleo_in_her_article]]. ~ ''[[User:ONUnicorn|<span style="color:#0cc">ONUnicorn</span>]]''<sup>([[User talk:ONUnicorn|Talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/ONUnicorn|Contribs]])</sup><small>[[WP:P&S|problem solving]]</small> 17:39, 7 December 2022 (UTC) |
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*'''Youree Dell Harris''' (born August 12, 1962), better known as '''Miss Cleo''', is an American who describes herself as a [[psychic]] and [[shaman]], who achieved fame as a spokeswoman for a psychic [[Premium-rate telephone number|pay-per-call service]] from 1997 to 2003. |
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*'''Oppose'''. We should keep this at Miss Cleo because it is the well established [[WP:COMMONNAME]] - Google search indicates 19,600,000 results for "Miss Cleo" compared to 39,900 results for "Youree Dell Harris" (most of which say stuff like [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/27/the-bizarre-legacy-left-behind-by-the-actress-who-played-miss-cleo/ Miss Cleo ... real name was Youree Dell Harris], [https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/lifestyle/lifestyle-news/miss-cleo-dead-tv-psychic-914668/ Miss Cleo ... Born Youree Dell Harris], etc). And per [[WP:STAGENAME]]: "The name used most often to refer to a person in reliable sources is generally the one that should be used as the article title, even if it is not the person's "real" name". There is nobody else who played Miss Cleo, and Harris is widely known by that name - her obituaries are essentially for Miss Cleo. Harris is notable for being Miss Cleo, and that is what most readers will be looking for, as is made clear by PageView Analysis: [https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&range=latest-20&pages=Youree_Dell_Harris|Miss_Cleo] - [[Youree Dell Harris]] was created in July 2006, and has attracted 534 views since then; [[Miss Cleo]], which was created only two years earlier than [[Youree Dell Harris]], has attracted 1,608,633 page views. [[Miss Cleo]] attracts an average of 591 views a day, which is more than [[Youree Dell Harris]] has attracted in 16 years. Per policy, guideline, usage, principle of least astonishment, and plain common sense, this article should remain at [[Miss Cleo]]. [[User:SilkTork|SilkTork]] ([[User talk:SilkTork|talk]]) 18:28, 11 December 2022 (UTC) |
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*'''Youree Dell Harris''' (born August 12, 1962), better known as '''Miss Cleo''', is an American "[[psychic]]" and "[[shaman]]" who achieved fame as a spokeswoman for a psychic [[Premium-rate telephone number|pay-per-call service]] from 1997 to 2003. |
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*'''Support''' per others above and consistency with articles such as [[Flo (character)]]. This is about the actress, not the character. We have it at [[Phil McGraw]] not Dr. Phil, we have [[Mehmet Oz]] not Dr. Oz, etc. [[User:CookieMonster755|<span style="color:#0099ff">cookie monster</span>]] [[User talk:CookieMonster755|<span style="color:Orange"><small>755</small></span>]] 02:16, 16 December 2022 (UTC) |
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(Please note that I deleted the reference ''only'' to avoid cluttering up this talk page with references; for the actual correction to the article, the reference would be ''retained''.)<br> |
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*'''Support''' per nom. [[User:VideōEtCorrigō|VideōEtCorrigō]] ([[User talk:VideōEtCorrigō|talk]]) 02:31, 16 December 2022 (UTC) |
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I would be interested in what other editors have to say about this. (Before I change an existing article, I always like to allow time for others to express their opinions.)<br>[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 06:43, 7 July 2015 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' - the persona is the notable topic here. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 07:09, 16 December 2022 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' per above. And call me now! [[User:Rreagan007|Rreagan007]] ([[User talk:Rreagan007|talk]]) 20:45, 16 December 2022 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' per above as well. We know Miss Cleo. We were never introduced to Youree, and most people don't even know that is her birth name. [[User:GuinanTheListener|GuinanTheListener]] ([[User talk:GuinanTheListener|talk]]) 16:40, 21 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::It has been a week since I posted the above and there has been no response, either for or against. I have gone ahead and made one of the changes I proposed. If anyone disagrees with it, please discuss it here.<br>[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 07:31, 15 July 2015 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose'''. [[Youree Dell Harris]] is only notable because of "[[Miss Cleo]]", the "''[[persona]]''" in [[Psychic Readers Network]] [[infomercial]]s .... [[User:0mtwb9gd5wx|0mtwb9gd5wx]] ([[User talk:0mtwb9gd5wx|talk]]) 02:03, 27 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::A psychic is someone who claims to have psychic powers; the only way I can imagine someone being a fake psychic is if you pretend that you're in the field (e.g. some sort of [[undercover operation]]) without really participating in it. Same with shamans: you're a leading practitioner of [[shamanism]], engaging in its rituals and being seen by other practitioners as a leader. As long as others consider you a leader in shamanistic practice, you're a shaman; a fake shaman is someone who sets herself up as one unilaterally. Concepts like this don't have licensing bureaus, and you can use these titles without proving that you have these powers. [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 15:26, 4 August 2015 (UTC) |
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*:[https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&range=latest-20&pages=Youree_Dell_Harris%7CMiss_Cleo%7CPsychic_Readers_Network pageviews: Youree_Dell_Harris; Miss_Cleo; Psychic_Readers_Network;] .... [[User:0mtwb9gd5wx|0mtwb9gd5wx]] ([[User talk:0mtwb9gd5wx|talk]]) 11:28, 26 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[WP:RM|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:RM bottom --> |
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::::Hello {{ping|Nyttend}}<br> I'm afraid I must respectfully disagree with your definition of a psychic as "someone who ''claims'' [emphasis added] to have psychic powers." Most reputable sources define the noun form of "psychic" as someone who actually ''has'' such powers. Please check out the following links: |
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::::*http://www.learnersdictionary.com/definition/psychic |
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::::*http://www.ldoceonline.com/Psychology,+Psychiatry-topic/psychic_1 |
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::::*http://dictionary.reverso.net/english-definition/psychic |
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::::*http://www.yourdictionary.com/psychic |
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:::: I did not just go ahead and revert your edit because that's how edit wars start and I do not engage in edit warring. For the time being I have made no changes to the article. But I do feel that the current wording in the article does not meet Wikipedia standards of NPOV. If "describes herself as a psychic" is unsatisfactory to you, I believe we can work out language which will be mutually satisfactory. I believe we can resolve this dispute without the need for anything more formal than that. Please let me know your feelings on this matter.<br>[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 09:32, 5 August 2015 (UTC) |
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:::::Those are all comparatively untrustworthy sources; even the first one, with its Britannica affiliation, is rooted in one produced by [[Noah Webster|a linguistic idiot]] whose dictionary had a ton of problems, partly because he actively changed parts of it to fit an agenda. If you go with a scholarly dictionary, you'll get different results. The [[Oxford English Dictionary]] says otherwise with their only relevant definition: ''A person who is regarded as particularly susceptible to supernatural or paranormal influence; a medium; a clairvoyant.'' Same concept with the final words: a medium is someone regarded as having these powers [it's a really long definition], and a clairvoyant is ''One who possesses, or is alleged to possess, the faculty of clairvoyance''. So you're right in saying that it's not someone who claims, but I'm right in saying that it doesn't imply that the person has these abilities. Believe me, I'm as sceptical as you on whether she actually has these abilities, but putting it in scare quotes or saying "she claims to be a psychic" actively implies that we reject her: that's equally non-neutral. With concepts like this, if you regard "is a psychic" as assuming that she's got these powers, you really can't come up with a neutral descriptor. Because simply calling someone a psychic is much more common than actively questioning it, the current wording will be much more readily understood as normal, while saying that she's self-described will be much more readily understood as presenting only an opposing point of view. [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 11:29, 5 August 2015 (UTC) |
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::::::Hello {{ping|Nyttend}}<br> I don't believe that The Oxford English Dictionary's definition of a "psychic," "''a person who '''is regarded as''' ''[emphasis added]'' particularly susceptible to supernatural or paranormal influence,''" supports your case. ''Some'' people may regard them that way, but plenty of people do not. In order to qualify, I would think that the regarding as susceptible to supernatural influence etc. would need to be the general consensus. And that is certainly '''not''' the case, especially among the scientific community.<br> The reason I chose "describes herself as a psychic" is it's the most neutral phrase I could think of, neither supporting belief in nor rejecting a belief in people with supernatural powers. But I would be open to virtually ''any'' wording that did not flat out say she '''is''' a psychic. How about "''regarded by many as a psychic''"?" (That would be about as literally true (and unbiased) as possible, and it would at least indirectly imply that ''not all'' people believe in it.) Or perhaps you would have something else to suggest.<br> As I indicated in my previous message, I really believe we can work this out between ourselves without any need for any kind of formal dispute resolution.<br> Just one last thing; I keep irregular hours and often don't get to check my computer for many hours at a time, so my future responses will probably not be as quick as this one was. But I <u>will</u> always reply.<br>[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 13:44, 5 August 2015 (UTC) |
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:::::::If she weren't regarded by many people as having supernatural powers, she wouldn't have become famous in the least; she would just be another crank. Again, "regarded by many as a psychic" is obviously a way of weaseling out of the situation and making it obvious that we reject her claims. Any idiot will realise that we're not being neutral. We must be very careful to be actually neutral, which [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?oldid=334854039 since the beginning] has involved "present[ing] ideas and facts in such a fashion that both supporters and opponents can agree". Supporters won't agree with wording that all-but-says that we reject her. [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 20:35, 5 August 2015 (UTC) |
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::::::::Hello {{U|Nyttend}}<br> First let's congratulate ourselves on the civil, diplomatic manner in which we're handling this. I'm sure there are plenty of other editors who would already be edit warring by now.<br> I think we're in full agreement that all Wikipedia articles must be written from a neutral, unbiased point of view; our only difference is over the specific language to use to accomplish that in this particular case.<br> I do not deny that there are some people (even some dictionaries) that would define the word "psychic" very generally to include not just someone who actually ''has'' supernatural powers (if such a thing existed), but also someone who just acted the role whether or not they had any special powers. But there are probably just as many who would define "psychic" more literally as someone who ''actually has'' such powers. And the problem is that when ''they'' read the article and see that "Miss Cleo is a psychic........" it looks like Wikipedia is claiming that some people actually have supernatural powers. And that is anything but NPOV.<br> If we were to write something like ''Miss Cleo pretends to be a psychic'' or ''Miss Cleo is a so-called psychic'' or ''Miss Cleo is a "psychic,"'' '''then''' it would be obvious that we were rejecting her claims. But to simply say that she "describes herself as a psychic" really does nothing but make a simple, unbiased, non-judgmental statement of fact that clearly indicates what her claim to fame is, without buying into the claim. I don't think any of her supporters or any of her opponents would disagree that she describes herself as a psychic. I believe that you are sincere in trying to avoid having the article sound biased in one direction, but are doing so at the cost of appearing biased ''in the other direction''.<br> I've offered my best attempts at a truly NPOV description of what makes Miss Cleo famous. But I am very flexible; and if you can come up with anything better (in terms of being truly NPOV ''in either direction''), I'll be happy to go along with it. I would settle for virtually anything that does not make an unmitigated declaration that she '''is''' indeed a psychic.<br>[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 10:05, 6 August 2015 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Sorry, but you are more and more convincing me that you are not interested in creating a page equally acceptable to her and her opponents. As I note above, everyone will understand that "alleged psychic" or "claims to be a psychic" or the like is a way of discrediting her without officially saying it, because normal usage (just like Wikipedia; see the first sentence of the [[psychic]] article) of the term doesn't demand that the user accept the person's claim or others' beliefs about the person. It's easy to find people using such a phrase while rejecting their claims; a quick Google search found pages like [http://americanloons.blogspot.com/2013/06/577-chip-coffey-lisa-miller.html], [http://www.birmingham.ac.uk/bramall/events/Bramall-Comedy-Night-Ivan-Brackenbury-and-Ian-D-Montfort-.aspx]. Conversely, virtually everything that I find that uses something like "claims to be a psychic" is actively critical, e.g. [https://books.google.com/books?id=3QLtFIED5tEC&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=%22claims+to+be+a+psychic%22&source=bl&ots=2Z-_63p7Ju&sig=tY-QuPJVvwRimWp8I88FWDwqN6E&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDoQ6AEwBTgKahUKEwjen5bYrJTHAhXMVT4KHe1dAUA#v=onepage&q=%22claims%20to%20be%20a%20psychic%22&f=false], and I'm having trouble finding people using such a phrase while accepting their claims. If you're using language only employed by one side of a debate instead of language employed by both perspectives, you're identifying yourself with that side, regardless of the dictionary meanings that you're still not accepting: your words carry a [[connotation]] of scepticism, regardless of their [[denotation]]. The final sentence of [[Wikipedia:Writing for the opponent]] is conclusive: "Wikipedia's NPOV policy must not be misused so it becomes synonymous with revisionism, censorship, whitewashing, or political correctness". It's indeed being misused so that it becomes synonymous with scepticism. [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 11:36, 6 August 2015 (UTC) |
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::::::::::Hello {{U|Nyttend}}.<br> Sadly it has become obvious that our one-on-one discussion here is ''never'' going to lead to anything even remotely resembling an agreement. So I have added this issue to the DRN.<br> I am hopeful and optimistic that the addition of a moderator to the mix may create an atmosphere where we may eventually find a convergence, maybe not of our opinions, but at least of what we are willing to accept for the ''Miss Cleo'' article. My understanding is that I am supposed to notify all editors who are involved or have been involved in the dispute. (So far that's just you and me.) So just to make it official, I will post a copy of this message on your user talk page. May I make the suggestion that, if you respond, you do so on the ''article'' talk page, just so there will be a page with a complete record of our conversation; but of course where and even whether you respond is entirely your own prerogative.<br> I find it truly regrettable that it has come to this. But I feel it is the appropriate thing to do at this point.<br>[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 06:46, 7 August 2015 (UTC) |
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I saw this at DRN, and I agree with Richard on this. I see nothing non-neutral in saying that she describes herself as a psychic. It's a verifiable statement and implies nothing further. Saying that she ''is'' a psychic is less neutral. Dictionary definitions are fine, but when reading an article, the average reader will probably not look up the strict definition of a word if s/he is already familiar with the word. In my opinion, if we state that she is a psychic, it will often be read as indicating that she does have psychic powers. Saying that she describes herself as a psychic doesn't have the same effect in the opposite direction; rather, it avoids the issue. [[User:Omnedon|Omnedon]] ([[User talk:Omnedon|talk]]) 13:29, 7 August 2015 (UTC) |
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:This issue has been discussed many times at [[Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard]] (for example, [[Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_11#Psychic.2C_et_al|here]]) and those discussions inevitably point back to the [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Paranormal|2007 ArbCom Paranormal case]] in which ArbCom held ([[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Paranormal#Cultural_artifacts|here]]) that<blockquote>"Psychic" or "clairvoyant" and similar terms are cultural artifacts, not people or things which necessarily exist. A psychic may not have psychic abilities, nor does use of the term imply that such abilities exist.</blockquote>and also held ([[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Paranormal#Paranormal_as_an_effective_tag|here]])<blockquote>The use of a link to [[paranormal]] in the introduction of an article serves to frame the matter. Links to [[psychic]], [[new age]], or [[occult]] serve the same purpose.</blockquote>I do not think that the qualifiers are needed so long as the word [[psychic]] is linked. Regards, [[User:TransporterMan|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS; color:blue; font-variant:small-caps;">'''TransporterMan'''</span>]] ([[User talk:TransporterMan|<font face="Trebuchet MS" size="1">TALK</font>]]) 14:04, 7 August 2015 (UTC) '''PS:''' Let me add to that: ArbCom is not empowered, [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Policy#Policy_and_precedent|per ArbCom policy]], to make decisions about content matters and, thus, ArbCom findings of principle and findings of fact are not binding or precedential decisions about content matters. Those findings are merely the platform or basis of the decision made in and for the purposes of that particular case, ''but'' they are also highly influential and are the carefully-considered evaluation of some of the most trusted members of this community. As such, they are not to be lightly disregarded. — [[User:TransporterMan|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS; color:blue; font-variant:small-caps;">'''TransporterMan'''</span>]] ([[User talk:TransporterMan|<font face="Trebuchet MS" size="1">TALK</font>]]) 14:50, 7 August 2015 (UTC) |
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::Hi, I am the mediator assigned to this topic from the [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard]]. I do not understand why this discussion has gone on for so long. It seems pretty clear cut to me, and keep in mind this is not due to personal beliefs but due to my research. The page [[Psychic]] states, "A psychic is a person who claims to use extrasensory perception (ESP) to identify information hidden from the normal senses." That is literally the first sentence. There is no need to put that she claims she is psychic because already a psychic is a person who claims to use powers. The word psychic is linked in the article and I do not think that there is much more to it. There is not a need to put that she claims she is psychic unless readers are thoroughly confused which I do not think is the case. These are just the facts and not my opinion so please do not feel like I am being wrongful. Of course you can continue to argue but I dont think that that will be productive in this case as it is so clear cut. Also thay might lead to an edit war which can be pusishable by blocks. If there is no discussion within 24 hours, I will close the case because either way, it is not the end of the world, both could be deemed correct, and there are other cases that would be more seserving of my time. Thanks, <span>'''[[User:Theeditorofallthingswikipedia|<span style="color:green">The Editor of All Things Wikipedia </span>]]'''<sup>'''[[User talk:Theeditorofallthingswikipedia|<span style="color:green">《Talk》</span>]]'''</sup></span> 00:46, 8 August 2015 (UTC) |
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[[User:TransporterMan]], [[User:Omnedon]], [[User:Richard27182]], [[User:Nyttend]] |
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:First of all, if you don't understand why this has gone on this long, to me that's indicative of a problem right there. There are clearly at least two different ways of viewing this, and whenever I see the claim "these are just the facts and not my opinion" it tends to make me wonder -- especially when in the previous sentence you use the phrase "which I do not think is the case". I'm sorry, but this seems more like judging a case than mediating a disagreement. The two are entirely different. [[User:Omnedon|Omnedon]] ([[User talk:Omnedon|talk]]) 01:23, 8 August 2015 (UTC) |
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--Please continue this discussion on this page: [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard]] under the correct heading-- |
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[[User:Omnedon|Omnedon]], when I said "I do not think this is the case", I was saying that I dont think that anyone reading the article is confused one way or the other, I was not talking about one side or the other being better or being better supported by facts, I was simply supporting the idea that either way, it is not the end of the world so please dl not twist my words in the future. And I said "these are just the facts and not my opinion" so that people who are suspicious like you can just take that and not feel ganged up against. Honestly, I wouldnt care either way because both in my eyes can be correct. But from a factual point of view, the facts seem to support the side of leaving out the extra words. In the end, this has to go one way or the other and this is all about helping one side bend out of their comfort zone to let the other side prevail. And I am just throwing out there that one side seems to be more supported. I beleive that you are straying off topic by critisizing me and should be focused on the topic at hand while trusting that I will not take sides and will be impartial. Thank You, continue it on the correct page, <span>'''[[User:Theeditorofallthingswikipedia|<span style="color:green">The Editor of All Things Wikipedia </span>]]'''<sup>'''[[User talk:Theeditorofallthingswikipedia|<span style="color:green">《Talk》</span>]]'''</sup></span> 01:46, 8 August 2015 (UTC) |
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:I'm not "suspicious" -- but in your first message here you come down solidly on one side. That's not the role of a mediator. So naturally I question your statement that "these are just the facts". This is a situation where there are points on both sides. It's not your role to simply decide which is correct -- not if you continue to use the term "mediator". I would also point out that a good mediator will not be so readily offended as you clearly are. You point out some items that you feel favor one side; but there are items on the other side as well. [[User:Omnedon|Omnedon]] ([[User talk:Omnedon|talk]]) 01:56, 8 August 2015 (UTC) |
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::Just to note a couple of procedural points: First, TEoATW is now indefinitely blocked and has stated on his talk page that he won't be back. Second, I'm a regular volunteer over at DRN though I've come into this case as a regular editor and not wearing my DRN volunteer's hat. I'm going to say this in the abstract and I do not want it to be taken as either an approval or a criticism of what TEoATW has said here or at DRN, but there is no one required form of dispute resolution at DRN and volunteers are free to either attempt to mediate a case, like what happens at [[WP:MEDCOM|MEDCOM]], which is what most commonly happens there, or to simply issue an opinion about what what they see as best, like what happens at [[WP:3O]], or some combination of the two. Depending on the circumstances, one is ordinarily more appropriate than the other and I've done all three during my time there (which has been pretty much since the beginning of that noticeboard). So I'll not support the criticism of TEoATW for ''merely'' issuing an opinion rather than mediating, but whether it was appropriate for this particular case or whether he did it well is another issue altogether and one which is, at this point, largely moot. Regards, [[User:TransporterMan|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS; color:blue; font-variant:small-caps;">'''TransporterMan'''</span>]] ([[User talk:TransporterMan|<font face="Trebuchet MS" size="1">TALK</font>]]) 16:26, 10 August 2015 (UTC) |
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::Hi {{U|TransporterMan}}.<br> I know you wrote the above message for Omnedon, but I read it and learned something from it. So far I have been in only one DRN case, and the moderator (Robert McClenon) handled it the way Omnedon and I were expecting the ''Miss Cleo'' case to be handled. I was not aware until you pointed it out that there are other approaches a moderator may take in moderating a DRN case. Between this and our message exchanges on my talk page, I'm learning a lot from you. (By the way, please see my new message to you on my talk page.) I am most grateful to you for your time and patience.<br>[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 05:58, 11 August 2015 (UTC) |
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:::The fact that the editor is blocked is irrelevant to the criticism of the approach taken, and I stand by it. If one is going to apply the term "mediation", then coming in and deciding that one side is correct in the very first communication is entirely inappropriate. That might be a form of "dispute resolution", but then one could also simply make a decision and close the discussion and call it that. The word mediation implies reconciliation and compromise. Looking for points of agreement and disagreement. Getting to the core of the dispute and trying to work it out with all involved parties. Naturally every case will be different, but the approach taken here was in no way helpful. [[User:Omnedon|Omnedon]] ([[User talk:Omnedon|talk]]) 11:49, 11 August 2015 (UTC) |
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::::Pinging: {{ping|TransporterMan}} {{ping|Omnedon}}<br> Omnedon, I agree with you ''in principle'' with everything you're saying about what mediated dispute resolution ''should be''. I think the point that TransporterMan is making here is that that's not the way DRN works in the world of Wikipedia. Apparently the rules governing DRN allow the moderator to act as an impartial moderator OR just state his own personal opinion OR just about any combination of the two or anything in between. That doesn't seem to make sense because if someone wants a single opinion they would file under WP:THIRDOPINION. In my opinion there should be some dispute resolution forum which specifically guarantees an impartial neutral moderator moderating the discussion. But there doesn't seem to be one (except perhaps that MEDCOM thing TransporterMan mentioned, but I'm not familiar with that.) Which brings me to a few questions for TransporterMan: |
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::::* In the future, if I need to file something for DRN, would it be OK to specify that I would prefer that the moderator take the impartial approach? Or would that be inappropriate? |
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::::* Once the ''Miss Cleo'' DRN is closed, is it permissible for me personally to file the RFC; or would I be ineligible since I'm one of the original editors involved in the dispute? |
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::::* If I ''am'' allowed to personally file the RFC, is it sufficient that I just follow the instructions at [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment]]? |
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::::Thank you both for your time and for any helpful suggestions you can provide.<br>[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 10:12, 12 August 2015 (UTC) |
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:::::Taking your bullet points first: Asking for mediation rather than opinion-giving would be fine and, indeed, it's what you're ''usually'' going to get at DRN — opinion-giving there, while permitted, is actually pretty rare and ordinarily limited to those cases where unmistakably there is only one correct outcome under Wikipedia policy. Yes, you can file the RFC yourself and just following those instructions is the normal way to do it. Note that most RFC's run for 30 days and, though it doesn't say it on the RFC page, due to the rules at 3O, DRN, and MEDCOM, no case will be accepted in those venues while the RFC is pending and any cases which are pending when the RFC is filed will be closed. Back to your point about 3O vs DRN vs MEDCOM: 3O is only available when there are exactly two editors involved in the dispute, so it's not going to be available all of the time. Moreover, 3O's don't "count" towards consensus, they're [[User:TransporterMan/WP3O/Nonconsensus3O|opinions and opinions only]] which the disputants are free to accept or reject. A DRN volunteer's opinion can count towards consensus. The [[WP:MEDCOM|Mediation Committee]] (MEDCOM) — and let me note for the sake of full disclosure that I'm a committee member, though I'm not speaking here on behalf of the Committee or while wearing my member hat — provides more or less "pure" formal mediation. So in some ways, DRN splits the difference between 3O and MEDCOM. Note that all three venues have requirements that volunteers be neutral as to the dispute and disputants, so saying "just state his personal opinion" misses the point that — whether it happens at 3O or at DRN — the opinion should be coming from someone who has a dispassionate and impartial view towards what's going on in the dispute. Finally, let me note that if this discussion is going to be much more extended that except perhaps for the RFC stuff that it's way off topic here and probably ought to move somewhere else. Best regards, [[User:TransporterMan|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS; color:blue; font-variant:small-caps;">'''TransporterMan'''</span>]] ([[User talk:TransporterMan|<font face="Trebuchet MS" size="1">TALK</font>]]) 13:27, 12 August 2015 (UTC) |
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:::::::Hi {{U|TransporterMan}}.<br> I absolutely agree with you 100% that the ''Miss Cleo'' talk page has gotten way off topic. For any future questions/answers/discussions, we can use your user talk page or my user talk page (with a ping); let me know which you would prefer.<br> I do have another question regarding the ''Miss Cleo'' dispute: |
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:::::::* Once the DRN is closed (assuming it's unsuccessful), I do plan to file an RFC. Concerning categories to use in the rfc template, I was planning on using: Biographies; Language and linguistics; Maths, science, and technology; and Religion and philosophy. I believe these would cover all the bases concerning the nature of the issue. Would it be permissible for me to include all four categories? I'd like to include all four if I'm allowed. |
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:::::::I'm not sure whether or not this is of interest, but for what it's worth yesterday was Miss Cleo's birthday. That's about all I can think of for now. As always, thanks for your help.<br>[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 08:08, 13 August 2015 (UTC) |
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::::::::You can include whatever categories you consider to be appropriate and I think that the ones you note above are fine, though I might add the "Society, sports, and culture" category as well. You need to decide whether you're only going for [[WP:CONS|consensus]] in regard to this one Miss Cleo article or whether you're trying to take on the larger issue raised by the ARBCOM findings. (A consensus decision here is not likely to carry over to any other article, since every article stands on its own, and individual articles are not, ordinarily, the place to establish encyclopedia-wide precedent.) If you want to do the latter — and I have to say that of those two I think that would be the one more likely to succeed, though I also have to say that I doubt that either will do so (but [[Flying Spaghetti Monster|FSM]] knows I've been wrong before) — this is not the place to do it. See my original posting on your talk page for where that effort ought to go (and what you ought to do before). <small>And, yes, if we're going to talk about anything other than a proposed RFC in regard to ''this'' Miss Cleo article, it ought to be on one or the other of our talk pages, probably yours (which I have watchlisted for the nonce, but {{tlp|talkback}} or {{tlp|ping}} me if you leave a note there for me and I don't respond promptly).</small> Best regards, [[User:TransporterMan|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS; color:blue; font-variant:small-caps;">'''TransporterMan'''</span>]] ([[User talk:TransporterMan|<font face="Trebuchet MS" size="1">TALK</font>]]) 13:25, 13 August 2015 (UTC) |
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== RFC: How to describe Miss Cleo in her article == |
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{{Archive top|status=(b)|result=So there's a pretty clear preference for the wording to be as option B. The option was left open for moves, merges and further discussion on whether Miss Cleo is a separate fictional entity and this close is without prejudice to that discussion.[[User:SPACKlick|SPACKlick]] ([[User talk:SPACKlick|talk]]) 11:34, 14 September 2015 (UTC)}} |
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How should we describe Miss Cleo in her article. Specifically, what should the first sentence of the article say about her and her claims? [[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 05:26, 15 August 2015 (UTC) |
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'''(A.)''' '''Youree Dell Harris''' (born August 12, 1962),<ref>{{cite news | url=http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/evidence/miss-cleos-valley-girl | title=Miss Cleo's A Valley Girl | publisher=[[The Smoking Gun]] |date=March 14, 2002| accessdate = 2015-08-04}}</ref> better known as '''Miss Cleo''', is an American [[psychic]] and [[shaman]] who achieved fame as a spokeswoman for a psychic [[Premium-rate telephone number|pay-per-call service]] from 1997 to 2003. |
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'''(B.)''' '''Youree Dell Harris''' (born August 12, 1962),<ref>{{cite news | url=http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/evidence/miss-cleos-valley-girl | title=Miss Cleo's A Valley Girl | publisher=[[The Smoking Gun]] |date=March 14, 2002| accessdate = 2015-08-04}}</ref> better known as '''Miss Cleo''', is an American who describes herself as a [[psychic]] and [[shaman]], and who achieved fame as a spokeswoman for a psychic [[Premium-rate telephone number|pay-per-call service]] from 1997 to 2003. |
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'''(C.)''' Other (Please specify.) |
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Please edit the ''Survey'' section and state your "vote" there along with a ''brief'' explanation of your reason(s). Please be sure to sign your "vote" with the usual <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> . (Otherwise it might not count.)<br>Longer comments and/or discussion should take place in the Threaded discussion section. [[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 05:34, 15 August 2015 (UTC) |
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===Survey=== |
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(place !votes here)<br /><br /> |
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*Definitely '''(B.)'''. I believe the problem with (A.) is that it makes Wikipedia look like it's taking her claims of supernatural powers at face value and accepting them. (B.) seems much more neutral; it states her claim(s) to fame just as clearly, but without appearing to buy into them (or reject them).<br>[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 05:37, 15 August 2015 (UTC) |
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*'''(A.)''' It is standard wording in such articles. B would be a failure of NPOV as attacking her self-description, and implying in Wikipedia's voice, that it is untrue. If this practice is to be chan ged, we need as site-wide RFC, not a discussion about a single article,, I doubt that site-wide consensus for something like (B) can be obtained (and I would be inclined to oppose such a proposal), but I strongly oppose an article-specific rule on such a matter. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] [[User talk:DESiegel|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 12:28, 15 August 2015 (UTC) (Added "a failure of" to my comment left out by an error of mine. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] [[User talk:DESiegel|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 12:43, 16 August 2015 (UTC)) |
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**{{Rationale discussion|talk=#Threaded discussion}} <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 19:04, 17 August 2015 (UTC) |
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*'''(B.)''' This is neutral wording. There is no implication that the self-description is untrue. Stating that she is a psychic will be read differently by different people, whereas stating that she describes herself as a psychic simply states a fact. Some may view the word "psychic" as including the concept of a claim; but I don't believe that's the general use of the term. [[User:Omnedon|Omnedon]] ([[User talk:Omnedon|talk]]) 13:22, 15 August 2015 (UTC) |
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*'''B''' per Omnedon. —[[User:KarasuGamma|烏Γ]] ''<sup>([[User talk:KarasuGamma|kaw]])</sup>, 00:06, 16 August 2015 (UTC)'' |
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*'''B''', obviously. All sources indicate that her "shaman and psychic" schtick was an {{em|acting}} job, a role that was being portrayed. "Miss Cleo" is essentially a fictional character, as several sources demonstrate. But even if this were not the case, we would still use option B, per [[WP:FRINGE]], [[WP:UNDUE]], [[WP:ABOUTSELF]], [[WP:PSTS]], [[WP:INDY]]. An argument could be made, in the case of real-life claims by the subject, for "is a [[shaman]] and describes herself as a [[psychic]]" [a religious claim followed by a fringe claim], but probably only if there were independent reliable sources indicating that an actual [[shamanistic religion]] accepted her a shaman (i.e., a religious figure), but these claims are all obviously a marketing put-on for TV phone-"psychic" purposes. Taking even the "shaman" claim at face value would be undue weight given to exploitative promotional material. Using "describes herself as a psychic and shaman" makes it clear that we are reporting her own (controversial) primary-sourced claims about herself, and clearly attributing them to her, not to reliable sources who have evaluated and confirmed her claims. The real woman is not associated with Jamaica, and the two voodoo-related religions of Jamaica are not shamanic anyway. See comments in [[#Threaded discussion]]. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 16:50, 17 August 2015 (UTC) Clarified: 18:25, 17 August 2015 (UTC)<p>PS: Another way of looking at this: Treat it exactly the same as the [[kayfabe]] roles, and statements made within them, of [[Professional wrestling|pro wrestlers]]; it's [[WP:WAF|"in-universe"]]. {{em|They even come from the same traveling carnival tradition}} as pro psychics/mediums/fortunetellers. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 08:03, 11 September 2015 (UTC) |
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*'''B''' Should an article say "Anderson caught bullets with his teeth" or [[John Henry Anderson|"Anderson is famous for a lifetime of successful performances of the bullet catch illusion"]]? [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 01:54, 19 August 2015 (UTC) |
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*'''C in the form set out by ONUnicorn below, first choice, then A, second choice.''' (Changed from just "A" after seeing ONU's suggestion. The following is my tldr reasoning for supporting A.) In many places around Wikipedia we refer to article subjects by terms reflecting belief or affiliation without making judgment on that belief. For example, we call people [[Christian]] as indicative of both their affiliation with that system of belief and acknowledgement of their claim that [[God in Christianity|God]] is real without saying that they "describe themselves" as Christians. And we do that despite the fact that there is a sizable part of the world's population who do not believe that gods exist and do so on the ''very same kind of arguments and evidence'' employed to show that there is no proof that psychic abilities exist. Adopting version B here will be taking the position, in effect, that well, maybe gods exist but that psychic stuff? Nah, not so much. However, we've got !rules about this in the [[Wikipedia:Fringe_theories#Evaluating_claims|FRINGE]] guideline:<blockquote>Notable perspectives which are primarily non-scientific in nature but which contain claims concerning scientific phenomena should ''not'' be treated exclusively as scientific theory and handled on that basis. For example, the [[Book of Genesis]] itself should be primarily covered as a work of ancient literature, as part of the Hebrew or Christian Bible, or for its theological significance, rather than as a [[physical cosmology|cosmological]] theory. Perspectives which advocate non-scientific or pseudoscientific religious claims intended to directly confront scientific discoveries should be evaluated on both a scientific and a theological basis, with acknowledgment of how the most [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] consider the subjects. For example, [[creationism]] and [[creation science]] should be described primarily as religious and political movements and the fact that claims from those perspectives are disputed by mainstream theologians and scientists should be directly addressed. Fringe theories that oppose reliably sourced research – [[denialism|denialist histories]], for example – should be described clearly within their own articles, but should not be given [[WP:UNDUE|undue weight]] in more general discussions of the topic.</blockquote>The fact is that in day-to-day use, most psychics make no specifically scientific claims any more than [[Christians]] make specific scientific claims that, for example, their prayers or offerings to their saints or to their God are answered. It is clear from a Wikipedia point of view that the mere claim that either set of practices "works" is not, per se, a scientific claim but is a matter of faith and belief; it is in the words of the guideline quoted above, "a claim which is primarily non-scientific in nature but which ''contains'' claims concerning scientific phenomena" (emphasis added). (Which is not to say that some individual psychics do not make specific scientific claims to which there is then a valid scientific response.) And let me say at this point that I'm not being an apologist for the psychics. There is absolutely '''no''' scientific evidence for the existence of genuine psychic abilities and there is '''overwhelming''' evidence that all that is claimed by psychics can either be shown to be [http://www.csicop.org/si/show/psychic_defective_sylvia_brownes_history_of_failure/ wholly unsubstantiated claims] or be shown to be easily achieved and reproduced through [[mentalism|trickery]] and thus devalued under [[Occam's razor]]. What I ''am'' saying is that the link to [[psychic]] satisfies the need for the skeptical point of view to be represented just like a link to [[Christianity]] satisfies the need for the skeptical point of view about the existence of Jesus or God and that, as much as some of us — myself included — would like to see claims of psychic ability purged from the face of the planet for consumer protection reasons — and just because bullsh*t — that as a day to day practice psychical practice ''is for Wikipedia purposes far more like a religion than it is a scientific claim'' and thus under current Wikipedia guidelines it should not be attacked or singled out for skepticism based on skeptical or scientific evaluation — which is what version B does at its root — any more than being a Christian is. Regards, [[User:TransporterMan|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS; color:blue; font-variant:small-caps;">'''TransporterMan'''</span>]] ([[User talk:TransporterMan|<font face="Trebuchet MS" size="1">TALK</font>]]) 16:18, 19 August 2015 (UTC) '''PS:''' I am sure that some of my Wikicolleagues who, like me, are skeptics, agnostics, atheists, or asupernaturalists, will say that the solution should be not to avoid whacking psychics with the Tar Brush of Truth but to whack the religious articles with it as well. To them I would say that while I agree with them in desire, this isn't Skeptopedia or Atheiopedia but a general purpose encyclopedia and our job is to reflect dispassionately and with thorough but NPOV coverage the accepted positions, pro and con, of society as a whole or, to say it differently, our job is not to lead but to follow. That indicates that at this point in time we ought to give religion a break. — '''TM''' 16:18, 19 August 2015 (UTC) |
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::*Please see Richard27182's counter opinion in the Threaded discussion section. [[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 05:38, 20 August 2015 (UTC) |
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::::Oooooooo, I ''like'' ONUnicorn's suggestion, below (with or without the article name change, but better with it). Changing my !vote to support that position, first, then A. Regards, [[User:TransporterMan|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS; color:blue; font-variant:small-caps;">'''TransporterMan'''</span>]] ([[User talk:TransporterMan|<font face="Trebuchet MS" size="1">TALK</font>]]) 18:38, 20 August 2015 (UTC) |
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*'''B''' Much more neutral. We are not "attacking her self-description" or rejecting her claims, we are saying what she describes herself to be. By saying she "describes herself as a psychic" rather than she "is a psychic", we are avoiding stating opinions as facts. [[User:Meatsgains|Meatsgains]] ([[User talk:Meatsgains|talk]]) 02:13, 20 August 2015 (UTC) |
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*'''A''' - (summoned by bot) standard wording in articles such as this. - [[User:Cwobeel|<span style="color:#339966">Cwobeel</span>]] [[User_talk:Cwobeel|<span style="font-size:80%">(talk)</span>]] 03:21, 20 August 2015 (UTC) |
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*'''C''' - First, I would propose moving the article to '''Youree Dell Harris''', as it is fairly clear that Ms. Cleo is a role or character played by Ms. Harris. The way the article is currently written confuses Ms. Cleo and Ms. Harris. Just as we have separate articles for [[Stephen Colbert]] the man and [[Stephen Colbert (character)|the character played by Stephen Colbert]], we should separate Ms. Cleo and Youree Dell Harris. Once that is done, we can describe them thusly: "'''Ms. Cleo''' is a character played by Youree Dell Harris in advertisements for a [[psychic]] [[Premium-rate telephone number|pay-per-call service]] from 1997 to 2003." "'''Youree Dell Harris''' is an [[actress]] who is most famous for portraying Ms. Cleo in advertisements for a [[psychic]] [[Premium-rate telephone number|pay-per-call service]] from 1997 to 2003." ~ ''[[User:ONUnicorn|<span style="color:#0cc">ONUnicorn</span>]]''<sup>([[User talk:ONUnicorn|Talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/ONUnicorn|Contribs]])</sup><small>[[WP:P&S|problem solving]]</small> 16:09, 20 August 2015 (UTC) |
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:*A very good proposal. (But please note that her stage name is "''Miss'' Cleo," not "Ms. Cleo.") [[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 10:44, 21 August 2015 (UTC) |
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:*No need to move the article, as Harris is not notable aside from Miss Cleo, and virtually all of our comparable articles are at the [[WP:COMMONNAME]], the character/alias name (see: pro wrestlers, actors, rock stars, porn performers, etc.). It's quite rare for us to use the real name, usually only a) the real name is actually more common (e.g. [[David Johansson]] not [[Buster Poindexter]]; [[Richard Ramirez]] not "the Night Stalker"), b) the real person is very famous for multiple such roles/aliases (e.g. [[Sacha Baron Cohen]] for both [[Borat]] and [[Ali G]], notable enough for separate articles), or c) the in-universe name was lifted from a prior context and is independently notable apart the "borrowed" usage (e.g. [[Rudolf Wanderone]], whose nickname "Minnesota Fats" was taken from ''[[The Hustler (film)|The Hustler]]'' after [[The Hustler (novel)|the novel]] became a movie, and who was using many other aliases before that). <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 08:16, 11 September 2015 (UTC) |
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*'''C''' Per ONUicorn it seems like the article confuses Ms. Cleo and Ms. Harris. Setting it up similarly to the Colbert pages seems appropriate. Cheers [[User:Comatmebro|<font color="green"><b>Comatmebro</b></font>]] [[User talk:Comatmebro]] 23:34, 20 August 2015 (UTC) |
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*'''A''' - "Psychic" doesn't carry a connotation that someone actually has psychic powers to me - it's just the word you use for that kind of occupation. Similarly if you described Penn and Teller as "magicians," I wouldn't take you to mean that they literally have magic powers. Indeed the [[Magic (illusion)]] refers casually to "stage magic" and "platform magic." I doubt anyone reads this as talking about actual magical powers. [[User:Lord Mondegreen|Lord Mondegreen]] ([[User talk:Lord Mondegreen|talk]]) 02:05, 21 August 2015 (UTC) |
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*'''B for now''' I support B for now. I don't think there should be two separate articles; [[Miss Cleo]] should redirect to [[Youree Dell Harris]]. "Miss Cleo" is the best-known of several broadly similar characters (that might be better viewed as separate business ventures), and does not have a public presence that differs from Harris's. [[User:Roches|Roches]] ([[User talk:Roches|talk]]) 16:13, 24 August 2015 (UTC) |
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*'''Suggestion''': I'm not voting, just suggesting that version A could easily be corrected to be nuetral if you use the phrase "She is PURPORTS to be a______ and ____ Etc." We use the word "purport" becuase it states that she is making a cliam but a claim that can neither be proven nor disproven. I was long time active in WikiProject Paranormal and we found "purport" or "purported" to be the most nuetral word we could find that satisfied believers, skeptics and [[Pseudoskepticism|pseudoskeptics]], the three most active parties of editors on such article topics.[[User:Lisapollison|LiPollis]] ([[User talk:Lisapollison|talk]]) 00:43, 25 August 2015 (UTC) |
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*<s>'''A:'''</s> Wikipedia's article on psychics starts with the sentence "A psychic is a person '''who claims to use''' extrasensory perception (ESP) to identify information hidden from the normal senses." (emph. mine) Describing her as a psychic does not mean admitting ESP exists, no more than describing someone as a catholic priest means endorsing [[transubstantiation]]. [[User:Brustopher|Brustopher]] ([[User Talk:Brustopher|talk]]) 00:05, 27 August 2015 (UTC) <small>!Vote struck see below, leaning towards C by OHunicorn[[User:Brustopher|Brustopher]] ([[User Talk:Brustopher|talk]]) 21:48, 3 September 2015 (UTC)</small> |
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:::*Please see my remarks in the Threaded discussion labeled "'''''Richard27182's counter opinion to TransporterMan's statement:'''''", especially the three points starting with "''I believe that nearly everyone knows (or thinks they know) what a "psychic" is.''" [[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 08:47, 27 August 2015 (UTC) |
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::::*Being a Catholic priest is different to simply being a Christian. Catholic priests make the supernatural claim that they can turn bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. Calling someone a priest in wikipedia's voice does not mean endorsing transubstantiation. Similarly calling someone a psychic in Wikipedia's voice does not mean endorsing ESP. I'd disagree that calling someone a psychic means endorsing their claims to supernatural powers. Being a psychic is a job. Hence you hear the term "TV psychic" or "telephone psychic" used a lot, without any implication of real supernatural powers. Shaman should definitely be written in wikipedia's voice, as it's a priestly role. [[User:Brustopher|Brustopher]] ([[User Talk:Brustopher|talk]]) 09:30, 27 August 2015 (UTC) |
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:::::::*Hello {{U|Brustopher}}.<br> You seem to be responding more to the first part of the posting I referred to; the really relevant part is the three points I made about the wiki-link to the ''Psychic'' article and the ''Psychic'' article itself. But to respond to your posting, I would say that there is a big difference between a Catholic priest and a "psychic." What defines someone as a Catholic priest is having undergone certain training (the seminary) and going through the official ordination ceremony. Anyone who meets those criteria is by definition a Catholic priest. But with "psychics" there are no formal criteria for definition other than supposedly possessing certain mystical powers. The main problem here is ''definition''; different people will define "psychic" differently. The beauty of option (B.) is the the fact that it avoids the definition problem altogether. Whether you believe in "psychic" powers or not, and however you define a "psychic"; no one can possibly disagree with the statement that ''she describes herself as a psychic''.<br> I will be happy to continue our discussion if you wish, but please note that I keep odd hours and may not be able to reply for as much as 24 hours (or maybe a bit more). Also if we continue this discussion, I think we should do so under the ''Threaded discussion'' section rather than the ''Survey'' section. Best regards.<br>[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 12:14, 27 August 2015 (UTC) |
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*'''C''' I think the article needs split to separate the two. Miss Cleo was a character. If we start off with that fact then we can say that she was psychic [in-universe]. If we don't end up spitting the article than definitely '''B''' as only the character ever claimed to be psychic. [[User:Jerodlycett|Jerod Lycett]] ([[User talk:Jerodlycett|talk]]) 01:52, 3 September 2015 (UTC) |
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*'''A''' - To say that she "describes herself as a psychic" implies that Wikipedia believes that there ''are'' real psychics but that Miss Cleo is a fake psychic. Which is to say that all the other psychics are not faking and actually do have supernatural powers. I would also consider ONUnicorn's '''C''' because Miss Cleo is not Youree Dell Harris' real name and I'm not sure if, under her real name, she ever made any claims to supernatural powers. [[User:Louieoddie|Louieoddie]] ([[User talk:Louieoddie|talk]]) 06:40, 8 September 2015 (UTC) |
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*'''B''' - neutral wording. [[User:Comatmebro|<font color="green"><b>Comatmebro</b></font>]] [[User talk:Comatmebro]] 18:21, 9 September 2015 (UTC) |
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*'''B''' - see [[User:SMcCandlish|SMcCandlish]]'s reasoning below. "Miss Cleo claims to be a psychic" is factually true. Less so "Miss Cleo '''is''' a psychic". — <strong><span style="font-family: 'Georgia'; text-shadow: 0px 0px 10px #000000">[[User:Asgardiator|<span style="color:#ffffff">Asgardiator</span>]] [[User talk:Asgardiator|<sup><em><span style="color:#000000">Iä! Iä!</span></em></sup>]]</span></strong> 07:23, 11 September 2015 (UTC) |
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===Threaded discussion=== |
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(long comments and discussion go here) |
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* Not only do I agree completely with {{U|Omnedon}}'s statement, but I will admit that Omnedon's statement makes the point even better than my own statement!<p>Concerning {{U|DESiegel}}'s point about a site-wide RFC, that may be a good idea; however since the ''Miss Cleo'' RFC has already been filed and is already drawing responses, I feel it should be seen through to completion. (Maybe the final result could give some indication of whether or not a site-wide RFC on the general subject should be undertaken.)<br>[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 07:55, 16 August 2015 (UTC)</p> |
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*:Agreed. This does need to a be a site-wide matter, but we can get a sense of how to approach this from a one-article RfC; that's how such things usually get started anyway. Cf. [[Penn & Teller]], etc.: There is no pretense at such articles that they have {{em|real}} supernatural powers. We have a problem in that both [[psychic]] and [[magic]]/[[magician]] go to pages that clearly indicate that the terms as being used at those articles refer not to real supernatural powers that have been verified, but the former seems to imply that the claims {{em|might}} be real while the latter makes no such pretense, and is very clear that the "magic" is a clever illusion. Ergo, a case cannot be made that "Penn & Teller are [[magicians]]" [which the article doesn't say; it uses "illusionists"] is equivalent to "Miss Cleo is a [[psychic]]". A large number of readers believe that psychic powers actually are real, and will thus interpret this is as a statement in WP's own voice that Miss Cleo's power are real, while no one except a 5-year-old really believes Penn & Teller have magical powers. Statements in WP articles have to stand on their own and be interpreted on their own, not by what readers may infer if they go to another article and read the claims and sources in that other article. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 18:48, 17 August 2015 (UTC) |
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* Version "A" is not "standard wording" (even [[WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS|if some other pages]] make similar claims, wrongly in WP's own voice), and violates several policies.<p>To elaborate on my [[#Survey]] comment: Let's make this really clear. I'm a card-carrying [[Discordianism|Discordian]] Pope and a [[Universal Life Church]] Minister [actually], and I hereby also declare myself an ultra-intelligent deity from another planet who will confer xeno-blessings upon you for a fee via my website [not really]. If you write an article about me, I don't expect it will begin with "... is a reverend pope, and a supergenius spacegod", even if some publication repeated my claims. To spell this out, if a notable Discordian group or the ULC chose to honor me in their materials as an especially noteworthy figure, that would be different. But a claim to be a religious figure in any religion in which there are no barriers to entry and no criteria for establishing any such claim, such that the religion and its institutions are not in fact conferring any honor or notability, is not encyclopedic material, it's just noise. And claims of supernatural powers (as opposed to performance of [[stage magic]]) are just noise. (And we have no sources indicating any such real-life claims anyway, only statements made as part of an acting job for a 900-number racket).</p><p>Side point on the "religious" claims (not actually made by the real person): The two [[voodoo]]-related spiritual traditions, [[Kumina]] and [[Obeah]], of Jamaica (where the "Miss Cleo" character was supposedly from, but with which the actual woman is not associated [http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/evidence/miss-cleos-valley-girl]) don't appear to be shamanic; no sources at either article say so, though one has been questionably categorized in [[:Category:Shamanism of the Americas]], on the basis of some self-published Angelfire page. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 18:55, 17 August 2015 (UTC)</p> |
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<br> |
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'''Richard27182's counter opinion to TransporterMan's statement:''' I have great respect for TransporterMan and the contributions he's made to Wikipedia. But I must disagree with him on this particular issue. Specifically I would like to comment on two elements of his statement.<br> |
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*I believe that comparing calling someone a "Christian" and calling someone a "psychic" is not valid. When someone calls himself a "Christian," he is simply professing that he holds a certain set of beliefs; nothing more. That's something I'm willing to take at face value. '''But''' when someone calls himself a "psychic," he's claiming a lot more than simply professing a set of beliefs; he's claiming to actually possess a set of magical, mystical, supernatural, (and scientifically unproven) powers. ''That'' I'm ''not'' willing to take at face value. Suppose we were doing an article about a particular "faith healer." Would we write "Brother So-and-so is a Christian evangelist who has actually cured hundreds of terminally ill patients with divine healing"? Of course not! We'd probably write something like "Brother So-and-so is a Christian evangelist who claims to be able to heal through divine intervention." Why should we treat articles about "psychics" any differently? |
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*I also disagree that option (A.) is justified (in whole or in part) by the fact that the word "psychic" in the ''Miss Cleo'' article is wiki-linked to the ''Psychic'' Wikipedia article, and for several reasons. |
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:::*I believe that nearly everyone knows (or thinks they know) what a "psychic" is. Hardly anybody is going to bother following that link to the ''Psychic'' article to see how Wikipedia defines a "psychic." They're just going to read "........Miss Cleo is an American psychic........" and draw the conclusion that Wikipedia believes in psychics. |
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:::*As we all know, one Wikipedia article may never be used as a reference in another Wikipedia article because that would be circular proof or circular reasoning, which is invalid. I believe that by the same token, using the contents of one Wikipedia article to justify the contents of another Wikipedia article is just as circular and just as invalid. |
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:::*I believe the Wikipedia ''Psychic'' article itself is flawed. The entire paragraph that defines what a "psychic" is contains not one single solitary reference. I suppose it's possible the author(s) may have consulted some reputable source when forming their definition; but ''if'' they did, they didn't bother to cite it. For all we know, they might have just made up the definition themselves. |
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For reasons including those stated above, I cannot agree with TransporterMan's argument in favor of option (A.).<br>[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 05:30, 20 August 2015 (UTC) |
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:Re your first bullet point, you say "he's claiming to actually possess a set of magical, mystical, supernatural, (and scientifically unproven) powers" but that's just the point: ''By definition'' none of those things are ''scientific'' claims and our guidelines, which I cited above, say "Notable perspectives which are primarily non-scientific in nature but which contain claims concerning scientific phenomena should not be treated exclusively as scientific theory and handled on that basis." What psychics claim is primarily non-scientific in nature. I rather suspect that you're mentally skipping over the "magical, mystical, supernatural, (and scientifically unproven)" part of your statement and focusing on "claiming to actually possess ... powers" but the claim of "powers" is only the claim to be able to ''do'' something, without making scientific claims for ''how'' they do it, and is no different than Roman Catholic priests claiming the power by virtue of their ordination as a priest, for example, to turn bread and wine into the actual body and blood of Jesus (while still possessing the physical appearance and characteristics of bread and wine). As for your hypothetical Christian evangelist, I would hope that we would identify him as a (linked) [[faith healer]] — not "self-described faith healer" — without going on to the description which you give above. Finally, if the [[psychic]] article is flawed, then it needs to be corrected, but I would note that the [[Psychic#Criticism and research|Criticism and research]] section is well-written and documented. As for the reliance on linking, I would only point out that the Wikipedia Manual of Style [[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Links|says]] that the only links in an article should be "High-value links that are ''worth pursuing''" (emphasis added). Best regards, [[User:TransporterMan|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS; color:blue; font-variant:small-caps;">'''TransporterMan'''</span>]] ([[User talk:TransporterMan|<font face="Trebuchet MS" size="1">TALK</font>]]) 14:16, 20 August 2015 (UTC) |
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::In reply to {{U|TransporterMan}}:<br> I must admit that I'm having some difficulty understanding the first part of your latest posting. It's not your fault; I'm not saying it's poorly written. I'm simply saying I'll need to read it several more times to fully grasp the point(s) it's making. So for now let me comment on the rest of it. |
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::*If I may I'd like to borrow your example of the priest supposedly turning bread and wine into the actual body and blood of Christ. Would we write an article about the ''Roman Catholic Priesthood'' and say that one of the functions of a Catholic priest is to turn bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ, and then to clarify things, have a wiki-link to the ''Transubstantiation'' article which says: "Transubstantiation ........ is, ''according to the teaching of the Catholic Church'' [emphasis added], the change by which the bread and the wine used in the sacrament of the Eucharist become, not merely as a sign or a figure, but also in actual reality the body and blood of Christ."? It seems so complicated and unnecessary. Why not just say it all in the ''priesthood'' article? "According to Roman Catholic teachings and beliefs, one of the functions of a Catholic priest is to turn bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ." Period. I don't understand the rationale behind stating something incomplete or even potentially misleading in the main article and then relying on something in a wiki-linked article to clarify or complete the point. The same thing with the "faith healer" example. Why refer to him as a "faith healer" (which implies that healing by faith is occurring) and then clarify things by wiki-linking to the ''Faith healing'' article, where the reader will finally get to see the word "''claimed''"? |
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::*Concerning the ''Psychic'' article, I believe it is flawed by lacking essential references. But in this particular case it's much more complicated than just needing a reference or two. I'll agree that there are a few sources that define the word "psychic" loosely to include not just people who actually have "psychic powers" (if such a thing existed), but also people who simply ''claim'' to have those powers. But plenty of sources (a majority I believe) define it specifically as someone actually ''having'' the alleged powers. (An example is the definition according to [http://www.learnersdictionary.com/definition/psychic Encyclopaedia Britannica / Merriam-Webster].) So if you want to be totally complete, I guess you'd have to include both definitions, each with at least one reference, and perhaps an explanation of which is more commonly accepted. (I would ''not'' want that job!) In any case we could completely avoid the definition problem altogether in the ''Miss Cleo'' article simply by using option (B.). |
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::*On your last point about reliance on linking, you point out that the Wikipedia Manual of Style says that the only links in an article should be "High-value links that are ''worth pursuing''" (emphasis added). If I'm getting your point, you're saying that when the reader sees the link, he should realize that the link is important and should be followed. I'll agree that would (or should) be true of Wikipedia editors. But what about the 99.99% of Wikipedia readers who are not editors? I doubt that ''they'' have read the Wikipedia Manual of Style. How are ''they'' supposed to know that, in order to get the true meaning of the article, they must follow the link? |
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::*Concerning the new (C.) option proposed by ONUnicorn, I believe that that would be just as good as the (B.) option; but (B.) remains my first choice simply because it would be ''soooooo'' much easier to implement. |
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::I'll devote some more time reviewing the first section of your posting and try harder to understand the points that are being made. I can comment on that in my next posting.<br>[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 07:11, 21 August 2015 (UTC) |
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:::At this point, I think I like ONUnicorn's idea so much that I'd just as soon not spend much more time defending my position about A, though I continue to stand by it. Best regards, [[User:TransporterMan|<span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS; color:blue; font-variant:small-caps;">'''TransporterMan'''</span>]] ([[User talk:TransporterMan|<font face="Trebuchet MS" size="1">TALK</font>]]) 13:27, 21 August 2015 (UTC) |
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:Richard27182's indent preferences confound me, so I don't know how many would be proper to use in a reply, but regardless I want to point out that I entirely agree with him on this. —[[User:KarasuGamma|烏Γ]] ''<sup>([[User talk:KarasuGamma|kaw]])</sup>, 08:33, 22 August 2015 (UTC)'' |
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::Hi {{U|KarasuGamma}}. I'll be the first to admit that my indent preferences are often a bit unconventional and sometimes even inconsistent. It's something I need to work on.<br> But in any case I very much appreciate your support not only of my opinions in this case but also of my reasoning. Thank you.<br>[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 09:08, 23 August 2015 (UTC) |
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==== About the available options ==== |
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'''To all editors involved in this discussion:''' I would like to suggest that options (B.) and (C.) need not be considered mutually exclusive. Even if the ''Miss Cleo'' article eventually gets split into two articles (one about the real person and another about the "psychic" character she portrayed), that could require some time and collaboration among editors. We might consider applying option (B.) right away (ie, at the time of the formal closing of the RFC), with the understanding that option (C.) would be implemented as soon as practical.<br>[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 09:12, 23 August 2015 (UTC) |
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:{{Ping|Richard27182}}Sorry for my incredibly delayed response. You make a convincing point about the differences between priests and psychics. However, being a shaman is a priestly role even if it doesn't have the same strict definition as being a Catholic priest. Yet I'd be against saying she "is a shaman and claims to be a psychic" because she seems to be far more notable as a psychic than as a shaman. What would you suggest? Thanks. [[User:Brustopher|Brustopher]] ([[User Talk:Brustopher|talk]]) 22:39, 1 September 2015 (UTC) |
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:::Hi {{U|Brustopher}}.<br> Please don't worry about the delayed response; I am often late getting back to people myself. The important thing is there's still about a couple weeks till the RfC closes, so you replied with plenty of time left for discussion.<br> Concerning the shaman thing, I would say that if there is some kind of tangible training, or credentials, or ceremony that ''by definition'' make one a shaman, ''and'' if there is evidence that Miss Cleo meets that definition, then I'd be willing to directly call her a shaman. But to the best of my knowledge, there is nothing ''tangible'' that makes someone a shaman; it seems to simply be something one declares oneself to be, just like with "psychic."<br> But more importantly, the more research I do and the more I learn about "Miss Cleo," the more I'm convinced that what we're dealing with here is an actress (Youree Dell Harris), portraying a ''fictional character'' named "Miss Cleo" in a series of infomercials for a psychic phone service. "Miss Cleo" is supposed to be Jamaican; Dell Harris is not (she's from Los Angeles). Dell Harris does not have a Jamaican accent. And she has portrayed other roles as well.<br> I'm starting to think that this RfC is not so much about how a Wikipedia article should refer to an actual person who claims to be a "psychic" or "shaman," but rather if "Miss Cleo" even ''is'' an actual person claiming to be a psychic and shaman, or if she is actually just a fictional character portrayed by an actress. I started out feeling that option (B.) was the only way to go; and, while (B.) remains my official choice for this RfC, I'm thinking more and more that, in the long run, perhaps option (C.) may be the way to go. I would be very interested in hearing your views on all this.<br>[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 07:31, 2 September 2015 (UTC) |
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::::{{U|Richard27182}}Your points are very convincing. I'll strike my !vote for A. But if any evidence emerges in the sources of her having gone through a training process to become a shaman I'd be willing to reconsider the wording. As for her openly being an actress the sources are conflicting. One refers to Cleo being a character "portrayed by Youree Dell Harris."[http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news02/cleo_settle.html] Another mentions that "Florida authorities have challenged Perris to prove that she really is a Jamaican shaman," which implies that she was not claiming to be an actress. All in all very confusing and conflicting [[User:Brustopher|Brustopher]] ([[User Talk:Brustopher|talk]]) 21:46, 3 September 2015 (UTC) |
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:::::Hi {{U|Brustopher}}. I think it ''extremely'' unlikely that any evidence will emerge that would indicate her being anything other than an actress, and definitely ''not'' a true "psychic" (if such a thing existed in the first place) or shaman. The key, of course, is reliable sources. If we were to have two articles about this person (one on the character "Miss Cleo," and another on the real life person Youree Dell Harris), we would obviously need to find reliable sources to back up the information (particularly on the article about the real life person). And I'm not sure if Wikipedia-grade references on her exist. Even though having two articles may well be the best solution, I'm not sure if sufficiently good sources exist to make such an article feasible. Another potential problem would be that the RfC may end up calling for the article to be split (option (C.)), but then the actual implementation may not get done. (An uninvolved editor formally closing the RfC can implement minor changes in wording, but we could not expect him to do something amounting to a complete reworking of the article.) That's the main reason I'd like to see option (B.) at least be a ''part'' of the final result; perhaps a combination of (B.) and (C.). That way if option (C.) is called for but not implemented, at least option (B.) would eliminate the (IMO) non-neutral POV of directly calling her a "psychic." It could be a fourth option, option (B.C.); the uninvolved editor closing the RfC would change the wording in the current article as specified in option (B.), but with the directive that the article be split according to option (C.). It would be up to one or more editors to take on the task and complete it. What is your opinion on all this?<br>[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 06:38, 4 September 2015 (UTC) |
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{{outdent}}Until something reasonable can be drafted for such a split if it happens, what about possibly moving the whole thing to an article on Harris? This would entail leaving most of the Miss Cleo information as a large section amounting to evidence for Harris' personal notability, while also allowing for more accurate biographical information and sections for some of her other characters. —[[User:KarasuGamma|烏Γ]] ''<sup>([[User talk:KarasuGamma|kaw]])</sup>, 20:49, 4 September 2015 (UTC)'' |
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:I would be for moving the article to a better name. I think we need to shelve the lead wording discussion until we decide what to do with the article. Harris is obviously not a psychic, she's an actor. The character would (in universe) be a psychic though. We don't say that Gandalf claims to be a wizard, he '''is''' a wizard. Same with Harry Potter. We either need to split out the character (who very well may be notable on her own) or we need to move the page to Harris. [[User:Jerodlycett|Jerod Lycett]] ([[User talk:Jerodlycett|talk]]) 04:46, 5 September 2015 (UTC) |
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:: I would not mind shelving the lead wording discussion ''temporarily'' until we decide what to do with the article (in terms of whether to split it and what name(s) should appear in the article title(s)). But I do believe that it's important whether or not the article(s) directly say that someone actually ''is'' a psychic or has psychic powers. I'd be much more comfortable (or at least less ''un''comfortable) if the article referred to a ''fictional character'' as being a "psychic" rather than referring to a ''real person'' as such.<br> I would definitely support splitting the article (as previously discussed) or changing the article to an article about Youree Dell Harris (with an appropriate redirect from "Miss Cleo"). But there are some very important logistical things to consider. The RfC is scheduled to auto-close in well under two weeks. I had assumed that we would discuss it until then and then ask that an uninvolved editor do a formal closure and make the necessary adjustments (if any) to the article. If the uninvolved editor closes the RfC in favor of splitting, is he supposed to do all that work himself? I think that would be asking a lot of someone who was uninvolved to begin with. And what if he makes mistakes or even misinterprets what we had in mind. We'd be more or less stuck with it. An alternative would be for us to prepare a complete article (or articles) in a sandbox. Then if the uninvolved editor closes the RfC in favor of that option, all he'd have to do would be to replace the current version with the new version. ''But it would take time (probably more than two weeks) for us to come up with the new version(s).'' I'm not at all opposed to taking this path, but if we're going to rewrite or even just restructure the article (the sandbox version(s)), I would want to extend the RfC's auto-close date. (And being a relative newcomer, I don't even know how to do that; someone else would have to do it.)<br> I know I've written a lot here, but this RfC has evolved into something much more complicated than what it started out to be. I'd like to hear how others feel about all this.<br>[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 07:01, 5 September 2015 (UTC)<br> |
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::Sorry. I should have pinged those involved. {{ping|Brustopher}} {{ping|KarasuGamma}} {{ping|Jerod Lycett}}<br>[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 07:14, 5 September 2015 (UTC) |
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:::You managed to edit that ping in right while I was reading your response. The instructions given at [[Template:Rfc]] provide an indirect option to trick the auto-close bot into thinking the RfC started later than it actually did, by including a false timestamp between the template and the first comment under it. As for the plan for the article, I do agree that a sandbox rewrite would be a good place to start, though I don't have any experience either in substantial rewrites of articles or with anything about Harris. I'd be more in favor of moving than of splitting, since I think there might not be enough notability to have an article for Miss Cleo independent of one for Harris, but again, I haven't personally done any research into her - I only arrived here from the [[WP:FRS|feedback request service]], and didn't think I'd get any more involved than my initial vote. (And for what it's worth, I might as well say now that I think the eventual description of Miss Cleo should still be careful about its language, possibly using a construct like "she is portrayed as a psychic" to emphasize that she's fictional, but that can be saved for when that discussion becomes relevant again.) —[[User:KarasuGamma|烏Γ]] ''<sup>([[User talk:KarasuGamma|kaw]])</sup>, 07:32, 5 September 2015 (UTC)'' |
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:::::Hi {{U|KarasuGamma}}.<br> With the way this RfC is becoming more and mote complex, I think it would be a good idea to extend it. I think the best time to do that would be when there is about a week left for it to run, and extend it for another month. I read the instructions about changing the first date stamp and I should be able to handle it with no problem.<br> Concerning the issue of whether or not Wikipedia should directly refer to someone as a psychic, I would say that you and I are not just on the same page but the same paragraph (I'd go so far as to say the same sentence.) I believe it should always be worded such that it's clear that Wikipedia is simply reporting that So-and-so describes himself as, or claims to be, or calls himself a psychic; I believe that to do otherwise would be interpreted ''at least by some readers'' as Wikipedia declaring them to actually have psychic powers. But there are many editors who would disagree with us on that.<br> Concerning the splitting vs. moving issue, I would tend to agree with you about there not being enough notability to have an article for each. I think there's just about enough notability for one or the other; but I think that whichever one the article is about, there should be an article named for the other that redirects to the full article. Moving (which I believe amounts to renaming) would require a few changes here and there, but would probably be much easier than having two articles.<br> Something important to keep in mind here is the fact that the move/split option (what's been called "option (C.)) is only one of three options. There's no guarantee that there will be consensus on it or that the uninvolved closing editor will determine it to be the RfC's result. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't still pursue it, including preparing a sandbox version.<br> I know I've written a lot here, but as I've written before, this RfC has evolved into something ''much'' more complex than what it started out as. Anyway what do you think about all this?<br>[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 07:10, 6 September 2015 (UTC) |
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::::::You seem a bit confused as to what a closing editor would do. They don't necessarily have to do any of the work. They're basically saying what the result of the discussion was, including if no consensus was reached. I think it's fairly obvious what the results are at this point, either we need to rename or split the article, or we need to reword it to indicate that she only played a psychic/shaman. I mean look at the survey, and discussion, the majority are in favor of rewording (option B). I think that's actually itself been resolved, and now we're discussing '''how''' to do it. Our options are, leave the page as is, and just reword it, rename the page and put Miss Cleo as her most well-known character, or split the page. I came to the RfC as a neutral party on the subject. I actually could have closed it when I came as a SNOW. I didn't because the discussion of how to resolve it needs to be completed. [[User:Jerodlycett|Jerod Lycett]] ([[User talk:Jerodlycett|talk]]) 08:17, 6 September 2015 (UTC) |
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::::::::Hello {{U|Jerodlycett}}.<br> Sorry if what I wrote mislead you. I know that the job of the closing editor is just to determine the result of the discussion in the RfC (including the possibility of no consensus). But at least in some cases, the closing editor will implement the change called for (assuming it's just changing a few words in the article or something like that). At least that's what happened in the last RfC I participated in.<br> I must admit I'm a little confused when you write that the majority are in favor of option (B.) and now we're discussing '''how''' to do it. Option (B.) describes a very specific wording to be used. If we choose option (B.) there is nothing to discuss in terms of wording; the wording is already specified. Where there ''is'' a need for discussion concerns option ''(C.)'', how to rename or split the article.<br> If I'm missing the point here then please correct me. But my understanding is that option (B.) means simply changing the article to read that she "describes herself as a psychic and shaman." While option (C.) calls for renaming or splitting the article, and ''that'' option would require discussion and figuring out specifically how to implement it.<br>[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 11:13, 6 September 2015 (UTC) |
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{{outdent}}The issue is that you started it as a poll. It should have been a discussion of '''if''' the change in wording was needed. In discussion of the poll it was pointed out that splitting or renaming the article is a better solution. You added it as an option C. It wasn't a third option actually, it was a separate proposal. [[Iff]] the page isn't renamed or split we'll go with B, which was [[WP:SNOW]]ED. Next time consider [[WP:POLL]]ING only after a long discussion. We have had one actually just now. It would be best to start a new section on this page, point out the discussion that occurred here, and poll on the three options of splitting the page, renaming the page, and keeping the page the same, but following the snow to option B. [[User:Jerodlycett|Jerod Lycett]] ([[User talk:Jerodlycett|talk]]) 11:43, 6 September 2015 (UTC) |
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::Hello {{U|Jerodlycett}}.<br> Actually I modeled this RfC after the previous RfC in which I participated (which was opened and more or less managed by Robert McClenon (see [[Talk:Wanderer of the Wasteland (1945 film)#RFC: Sentence About Earlier Version|Wanderer RfC]])). In this RfC (as in that one) there was an "extra" option simply defined as "Other (please specify)". At some point during the discussion, ONUnicorn proposed the splitting/renaming idea, and that became known as option (C.)<br> I agree with you 100% that, if we do not use option (C.) then option (B.) is the best choice. I am about to post a suggestion in which I describe what I feel would be the simplest way to implement options (C.) and (B.). If enough editors agree with it, we could either declare consensus, or request formal closure by an uninvolved editor when the RfC auto-closes around Sept. 15th. Please let me know what you think. (Also please hold your response for at least 5-10 minutes to give me time to post my suggestion). (Also, I'm about to go out for the day and may not be able to reply right away, but I definitely will reply.) Thank you.<br>[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 21:54, 6 September 2015 (UTC) |
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:::This discussion about discussion is not helpful. It shouldn't matter whether it started as a poll or a discussion; in pretty much all cases, an RfC evolves to have both. Also, I do recommend that Richard figure out a system for adding comments that better fits with what's generally used; indenting with NBSPs is not clean or easy to follow, and it makes replying inconvenient. I'm going to split this discussion into subsections based on your arbitrary space-creating and bolding. —[[User:KarasuGamma|烏Γ]] ''<sup>([[User talk:KarasuGamma|kaw]])</sup>, 01:34, 7 September 2015 (UTC)'' |
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::::Hi {{U|KarasuGamma}}. |
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:::: I agree that discussion about discussion is not helpful. We should all be discussing the best way to improve the article, not discussing how we should be discussing it. I'll also agree that indenting with all those <nowiki> 's</nowiki> makes the wiki code more difficult to follow; but I ''do'' like to indent my paragraphs. Is there an easier way to do an indent than using a bunch of <nowiki> 's</nowiki>? |
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:::: Thank you for adding the subsections. It not only makes things clearer and easier to follow, but it will also make adding new postings much easier (especially for people like me who use a mobile device and have to touchscreen scroll down from the last (sub)section title). You've made editing this RfC a lot easier for me and I'm sure a lot of others. |
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:::: (Please see my other posting (below).)<br>[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 07:51, 7 September 2015 (UTC) |
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:::::I don't want to sound rude with this, but after a quick bit of research it became rather obvious that sticking to the standard indentation scheme described at [[WP:TALK#Layout]] is a Wikipedia guideline. I'm not sure there is another option. —[[User:KarasuGamma|烏Γ]] ''<sup>([[User talk:KarasuGamma|kaw]])</sup>, 18:10, 7 September 2015 (UTC)'' |
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==== Implementation of the end result ==== |
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'''Pinging all editors involved so far:'''<br> |
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{{ping|DESiegel}} {{ping|Omnedon}} {{ping|KarasuGamma}} {{ping|SMcCandlish}} {{ping|Johnuniq}} {{ping|TransporterMan}} {{ping|Meatsgains}} {{ping|Cwobeel}} {{ping|ONUnicorn}} {{ping|Comatmebro}} {{ping|Lord Mondegreen}} {{ping|Roches}} {{ping|Lisapollison}} {{ping|Brustopher}} {{ping|Jerodlycett}} (I believe I've included everyone).<br> We've spent a long time discussing what (if any) changes should be made to the ''Miss Cleo'' article. There seems to be an overall pseudo-consensus for either option (B.) or option (C.) or a combination. I think the most simple and effective way to implement ''both'' options would be to do the following: |
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*Create an article for Youree Dell Harris which redirects to the ''Miss Cleo'' article, and ....... |
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*Change the first paragraph of the ''Miss Cleo'' article to read: |
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**'''Miss Cleo''', who describes herself as a [[psychic]] and [[shaman]], achieved fame as a spokeswoman for a psychic [[Premium-rate telephone number|pay-per-call service]] from 1997 to 2003. Miss Cleo is actually portrayed by actress Youree Dell Harris. |
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The rest of the article goes on to discuss Youree Dell Harris; which is just as well because there's not much more to say about the character "Miss Cleo."<br> I really don't think we're going to come up with anything simpler that addresses both concerns.<br>[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 21:56, 6 September 2015 (UTC) |
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<br>ADDENDUM: I forgot to mention her birthday. That could be included in the first sentence of the second paragraph.<br>[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 22:06, 6 September 2015 (UTC) |
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:At that point, wouldn't Harris be a more appropriate title for the article, since Miss Cleo would only be one part of it, and {{tq|The rest of the article goes on to discuss Youree Dell Harris}}? That would be in line with what I suggested above about moving it to Harris, since she's likely more notable than her character. The lead would then read something like "'''Youree Dell Harris''' is an American actress who gained fame for portraying the character of '''Miss Cleo''', a fictional [[psychic]] and [[shaman]], as a spokeswoman for a psychic [[Premium-rate telephone number|pay-per-call service]] from 1997 to 2003." The article would have sections on Harris' biography, Miss Cleo, and her other characters. Such a move would allow for cleanup by way of removing the long string of "aliases" from the lead and mentioning them in the latter section. —[[User:KarasuGamma|烏Γ]] ''<sup>([[User talk:KarasuGamma|kaw]])</sup>, 01:34, 7 September 2015 (UTC)'' |
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::I'm with the raven, I say move to '''Youree Dell Harris''' if we're going to discuss more than just '''Miss Cleo'''. [[User:Jerodlycett|Jerod Lycett]] ([[User talk:Jerodlycett|talk]]) 04:28, 7 September 2015 (UTC) |
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:::<small>*Crow. Ravens always steal all the glory from the rest of us [[corvid]]s. —[[User:KarasuGamma|烏Γ]] ''<sup>([[User talk:KarasuGamma|kaw]])</sup>, 06:05, 7 September 2015 (UTC)''</small> |
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::::<small>I love all corvids, we just have more ravens around here. [[User:Jerodlycett|Jerod Lycett]] ([[User talk:Jerodlycett|talk]]) 07:59, 7 September 2015 (UTC)</small> |
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::::{{ping|KarasuGamma}} {{ping|Jerodlycett }} |
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:::: I'll agree that "Youree Dell Harris" would be a more appropriate title for the article since Miss Cleo would only be a part of it. Also I like the way the "psychic" would then be identified as a ''fictional character''; it sounds a lot better than referring to a ''real person'' as a psychic. My only concern would be that probably ''a lot'' more people have heard of Miss Cleo than Youree Dell Harris, and they might have trouble locating the article. Could we also have an article titled "Miss Cleo" that would just redirect to the Youree Dell Harris article? |
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::::[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 07:55, 7 September 2015 (UTC) |
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:::::Of course we'd leave Miss Cleo as a redirect. [[User:Jerodlycett|Jerod Lycett]] ([[User talk:Jerodlycett|talk]]) 07:59, 7 September 2015 (UTC) |
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:::::That's the whole point of redirects. The implementation, as it is currently, is that [[Youree Dell Harris]] already redirects to Miss Cleo, so to do it this way would require a [[WP:RMT|technical move request]] to swap the two around, but that's not any sort of challenge. At this point, I'm not even sure we'd need to extend the RfC if there aren't any other objections to this outcome; [[WP:NORUSH|there is no deadline]] for doing the resultant rewrite work. —[[User:KarasuGamma|烏Γ]] ''<sup>([[User talk:KarasuGamma|kaw]])</sup>, 17:56, 7 September 2015 (UTC)'' |
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:::::: That sounds like a good plan to me - I appreciate the ping. Cheers [[User:Comatmebro|<font color="green"><b>Comatmebro</b></font>]] [[User talk:Comatmebro]] 19:10, 7 September 2015 (UTC) |
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::::::: {{ping|Jerodlycett}} {{ping|KarasuGamma}} {{ping|Comatmebro}} |
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:::::::Just a few remarks, observations, and questions. |
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:::::::*As I've indicated, I am in favor of the current plan as discussed, ''as long as the person referred to as a "psychic" is clearly identified as fictional.'' |
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:::::::*''Just as a temporary stopgap measure'', would anyone have any strong objections to temporarily implementing option (B.) after the RfC is over and before the actual reworking of the articles begins? I only ask this so that, ''just in case we never get around to doing the reworking'', at least one of the issues will have been dealt with. Assuming the reworking of the articles ''does'' take place, the language of option (B.) would no longer be needed. |
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:::::::*Do we currently have sufficient consensus to proceed with the proposed reworking of the articles? |
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:::::::*Is it our intention to establish consensus, close the RfC ourselves, and implement the article reworking? Or are we planning on having an uninvolved editor do a formal closure? (Either way is OK with me.) |
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:::::::[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 09:14, 8 September 2015 (UTC) |
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::::::::This wasn't controversial, I say we can close ourselves. After closure the articles should be moved, and the lead rewritten to something like '''Youree Dell Harriss''' is an actor who gained fame for playing psychic '''Miss Cleo'''... [[User:Jerodlycett|Jerod Lycett]] ([[User talk:Jerodlycett|talk]]) 09:20, 8 September 2015 (UTC) |
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:::::::::{{ping|Jerodlycett}} |
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:::::::::Closing it ourselves is fine with me. |
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:::::::::In the unlikely event that the proposed reworking of the articles gets put off (say a month goes by with nothing being done), would you be willing to have me implement option (B.)? |
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:::::::::Also what about consensus? (About seventeen editors have participated in this RfC.) Is there enough overall agreement to say we've achieved consensus? |
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:::::::::[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 09:36, 8 September 2015 (UTC) |
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:::::::::{{ping|Jerodlycett}} {{ping|KarasuGamma}} {{ping|Comatmebro}} |
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:::::::::Our discussion seems to have ground to a halt; just when it seemed we had (at least a mini-) consensus. I'm still OK with doing what we talked about doing. Are the rest of you? And if so, what's the next step? |
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:::::::::[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 06:19, 9 September 2015 (UTC) |
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::::::::::If no one else is saying anything and everyone's agreeing, that's consensus. [[User:Jerodlycett|Jerod Lycett]] ([[User talk:Jerodlycett|talk]]) 11:14, 9 September 2015 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::Hi {{U|Jerodlycett}}<br>I know that the four of us (you, me, KarasuGamma, and Comatmebro) have more or less reached a consensus (assuming you're OK with my contingency plan of using option (B.) if for some reason the restructuring of the articles never gets done). But what about the other thirteen editors who participated, many of whom selected option (B.)? Can the four of us declare consensus when a majority of the participants have chosen something different?<br>[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 20:53, 9 September 2015 (UTC) |
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{{outdent}}{{reply to|Richard27182}}Yes. Consensus isn't a vote, it's a discussion. They didn't participate in it though, and from what I can see most of them chose B before a third option was presented, so it wouldn't be really valid. It'd all be made moot by moving the article though. If you're so worried about closing it, ask someone else to do it, [[WP:AN/RFC]] is where you'd go. [[User:Jerodlycett|Jerod Lycett]] ([[User talk:Jerodlycett|talk]]) 23:30, 9 September 2015 (UTC) |
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:Hi {{U|Jerodlycett}}. If I post a message on [[WP:AN/RFC]] asking for someone to close the RfC, doesn't that result in an uninvolved editor determining consensus ''himself'' and making any appropriate changes based on that determination? Also if I do do that, would it be advisable to wait until after the RfC auto-closes (for new comments) on or about September 14? You've been an editor longer than I have, so I'll just trust your judgement.<br>[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 08:26, 10 September 2015 (UTC) |
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'''To all editors:''' Please note that this RfC's 30 day auto close date is rapidly approaching at which point the RfC will be automatically closed to further postings. If anyone has any additional comments, suggestions, or opinions to post, now is the time to do it. Thank you to everyone who participated.<br>[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 07:10, 13 September 2015 (UTC) |
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=== Reflist === |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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{{archive bottom}} |
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== Miss Cleo's occupation == |
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'''(Please note that this section is ''not'' part of the RfC.)'''<br> |
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There is currently an active RfC about whether we should say that Miss Cleo "is" a psychic or "describes herself as a psychic." To list her occupation as "Psychic, shaman" at this point in time tremendously complicates things. If you wish to make this change, I only ask that you please hold off until the RfC is fully concluded (by around the middle of September). At that time it will be clear whether or not listing her occupation as such is consistent with what the rest of the article will say. I appreciate your cooperation in this matter.<br>[[User:Richard27182|Richard27182]] ([[User talk:Richard27182|talk]]) 08:39, 30 August 2015 (UTC) |
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:There is some discussion on whether to split it into two pages too. If the page '''is''' split, only Miss Cleo and not the actress would be a psychic. [[User:Jerodlycett|Jerod Lycett]] ([[User talk:Jerodlycett|talk]]) 01:55, 3 September 2015 (UTC) |
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:A topic can only be split to a separate article if it satisfies [[WP:N]], and I doubt there is sufficient material for two articles about notable topics. Far too much time is being spent on this minor issue—no one '''''is''''' a psychic because such things do not exist. Therefore, some alternative wording is necessary because the principle at [[WP:Real world]] applies—[[Peter Capaldi]] is an ''actor'', not a ''time lord''. [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 01:59, 7 September 2015 (UTC) |
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Latest revision as of 07:51, 2 December 2024
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Source for the character "Miss Cleo"
[edit]At present the article has "The Psychic Readers Network is said to have coined the title 'Miss Cleo'" and cites "Phone psychics' scam follows script". Erie Times-News. December 1, 2001. p. 2. I checked the web sites goerie.com and timespublishingcompany.com for "Phone psychics' scam follows script" or "Miss Cleo" but neither of them has this article on line.
The puzzle is this seattlepi.com article which says "Back then, she was known as Ree Perris and had written a play called 'For Women Only.' In it, Perris played a Jamaican woman named Cleo." If that's accurate then Youree Harris created the character and the Psychic Readers Network adopted it.
For now, I decided to not update the article as I'd want to see better sourcing for who developed the character. At one time the Psychic Readers Network seems to have owned the rights to it.
FWIW, the same seattlepi.com article says she was also known as Ree Perris, Youree Cleomili, Youree Dell Harris, Youree Perris, Rae Dell Harris, Cleomili Perris Youree, Cleomili Harris, and finally, well known as Miss Cleo. --Marc Kupper|talk 20:13, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
Requested move 4 December 2022
[edit]- The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
No consensus to move. After much-extended time for discussion, there is no consensus for a move at this time, and no reason to believe that a consensus will form if discussion is extended further. BD2412 T 23:53, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
Miss Cleo → Youree Dell Harris – Proposing rename because the article is about actress/media personality Youree Dell Harris, and "Miss Cleo" is essentially a character she frequently played. I don't think it would fall under WP:COMMONNAME and WP:PSEUDONYM because Miss Cleo wasn't a stage name she could freely use, it was a character created and owned by Psychic Readers Network who Harris was hired to play, and her other credits like voice over have been under her real name. In recent high quality entertainment sources like EW, it refers to the portrayer as Youree Dell Harris and Miss Cleo as a character. For another precedent for a performer primarily known for one character, Cassandra Peterson's article is not named Elvira. --Shivertimbers433 (talk) 23:06, 4 December 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 16:40, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
- Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 14:43, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose. Miss Cleo is what's notable; Youree Harris is only notable because of Miss Cleo. If we want to make a separate article for Youree Harris the person, that's fine, but I suspect it may fail WP:N. I'd rewrite the article from this point of view, something like "Miss Cleo was a spokeswoman for psychic pay-per-call service Psychic Readers Network, portrayed by Youree Dell Harris in a series of television commercials that aired from 1997 to 2003." 162 etc. (talk) 17:53, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
- Support per Cassandra Peterson, Larry Vincent. Those are actors who portrayed a character, but their articles are biographies of the actor, like this is a biography of Harris. For a character, we can see how articles like Flo (Progressive) have no biographical detail of the actor. I don't think there's enough content to justify separate pages for Harris and Miss Cleo, but I could be mistaken. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:45, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- Support per Muboshgu. Shwcz (talk) 15:54, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
- Support per nom, Muboshgu, and my 2015 comments at Talk:Miss_Cleo/Archive_2#RFC:_How_to_describe_Miss_Cleo_in_her_article. ~ ONUnicorn(Talk|Contribs)problem solving 17:39, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose. We should keep this at Miss Cleo because it is the well established WP:COMMONNAME - Google search indicates 19,600,000 results for "Miss Cleo" compared to 39,900 results for "Youree Dell Harris" (most of which say stuff like Miss Cleo ... real name was Youree Dell Harris, Miss Cleo ... Born Youree Dell Harris, etc). And per WP:STAGENAME: "The name used most often to refer to a person in reliable sources is generally the one that should be used as the article title, even if it is not the person's "real" name". There is nobody else who played Miss Cleo, and Harris is widely known by that name - her obituaries are essentially for Miss Cleo. Harris is notable for being Miss Cleo, and that is what most readers will be looking for, as is made clear by PageView Analysis: [1] - Youree Dell Harris was created in July 2006, and has attracted 534 views since then; Miss Cleo, which was created only two years earlier than Youree Dell Harris, has attracted 1,608,633 page views. Miss Cleo attracts an average of 591 views a day, which is more than Youree Dell Harris has attracted in 16 years. Per policy, guideline, usage, principle of least astonishment, and plain common sense, this article should remain at Miss Cleo. SilkTork (talk) 18:28, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
- Support per others above and consistency with articles such as Flo (character). This is about the actress, not the character. We have it at Phil McGraw not Dr. Phil, we have Mehmet Oz not Dr. Oz, etc. cookie monster 755 02:16, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- Support per nom. VideōEtCorrigō (talk) 02:31, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose - the persona is the notable topic here. -- Netoholic @ 07:09, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose per above. And call me now! Rreagan007 (talk) 20:45, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose per above as well. We know Miss Cleo. We were never introduced to Youree, and most people don't even know that is her birth name. GuinanTheListener (talk) 16:40, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose. Youree Dell Harris is only notable because of "Miss Cleo", the "persona" in Psychic Readers Network infomercials .... 0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 02:03, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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