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Vandalism on multiple articles now by Keith-264. Most prominent example: [[Second Battle of El Alamein]] |
Vandalism on multiple articles now by Keith-264. Most prominent example: [[Second Battle of El Alamein]] |
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== ''The Bugle'': Issue |
== ''The Bugle'': Issue 223, November 2024 == |
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| width="100%" valign="top" | <div style="text-align: center; color: darkslategray;">'''Your Military History Newsletter'''</div> |
| width="100%" valign="top" | <div style="text-align: center; color: darkslategray;">'''Your Military History Newsletter'''</div> |
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* Project news: ''[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/News/ |
* Project news: ''[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/News/November 2024/Project news|From the editors; awards and honours; contest results]]'' |
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* Articles: ''[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/News/ |
* Articles: ''[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/News/November 2024/Articles|Last month's new featured and A-class content]]'' |
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* Book review: ''[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/News/ |
* Book review: ''[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/News/November 2024/Book reviews|Hawkeye7 looks at battles of Operation Veritable in 1945]]'' |
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* Op-ed: ''[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/News/September 2023/Op-ed|Hawkeye7 on the Oppenheimer biopic]]'' |
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''The Bugle'' is published by the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history|Military history WikiProject]]. To receive it on your talk page, please [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Members|join the project]] or sign up [[User:The ed17/Sandbox3#Non-members who want delivery|here]].<br/>If you are a project member who does not want delivery, please remove your name from [[User:The ed17/Sandbox3|this page]]. Your editors, [[User:Ian Rose|Ian Rose]] ([[User talk:Ian Rose|talk]]) and [[User:Nick-D|Nick-D]] ([[User talk:Nick-D|talk]]) |
''The Bugle'' is published by the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history|Military history WikiProject]]. To receive it on your talk page, please [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Members|join the project]] or sign up [[User:The ed17/Sandbox3#Non-members who want delivery|here]].<br/>If you are a project member who does not want delivery, please remove your name from [[User:The ed17/Sandbox3|this page]]. Your editors, [[User:Ian Rose|Ian Rose]] ([[User talk:Ian Rose|talk]]) and [[User:Nick-D|Nick-D]] ([[User talk:Nick-D|talk]]) 12:12, 27 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== Patches vs vehicle signs == |
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G'day Direktor. Please just work through the 21st one with me rather than going around reverting my work, which is based on reliable sources. I would appreciate it if you would revert the other one. Thanks, [[User:Peacemaker67|Peacemaker67]] ([[User_talk:Peacemaker67|click to talk to me]]) 08:35, 17 September 2023 (UTC) |
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:Oh fine. But, [[User:Peacemaker67|Peacemaker]] me old mate - you're wrong about this one sorry to say: [http://www.spandaumilitariashop.com/ss-skanderbeg-pennant/]. Sure, attested as vehicle symbols your "negatives" may be, but they were not the divisional insignia (patches). <font face="Eras Bold ITC">-- [[User:Director|<span style="color:#353535">Director</span>]] <span style="color:#464646">([[User talk:Director|<span style="color:#464646">talk</span>]])</span></font> 08:41, 17 September 2023 (UTC) |
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:One more thing: I apologize for the tone of the comment on my initial revert to the black patch. I had no idea it was you, I thought it had to have been some SS-worshipping Albanian nationalist who'd changed the symbol such that it'd be a black double-headed eagle (the Albanian eagle) - as opposed to a white double-headed eagle (which happens to be the Serbian eagle lol). <font face="Eras Bold ITC">-- [[User:Director|<span style="color:#353535">Director</span>]] <span style="color:#464646">([[User talk:Director|<span style="color:#464646">talk</span>]])</span></font> 09:15, 17 September 2023 (UTC) |
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::They are two different things, old fruit. The uniform patches were worn by troops of that "nation" within an SS division, ie in the 5th SS "Wiking" division, Finnish troops wore the Finnish patch (a lion rampant), the Dutch wore the Dutch patch (a Dutch tricolour shield). But the unit symbol was the one other units recognised them by, and it was stencilled on their vehicles and guns etc and used as a sign on the road to where the division was deployed, ie the Wiking division symbol, the ''Sonnenrad''. Members of the Wiking division did not wear the ''Sonnenrad'' on a sleeve shield or anywhere on their uniform actually. Unit symbols have to be simple and easily cut out and stencilled. It is the same today. The paint goes inside the cut out eagle, not around it, although sometimes they would paint a darker square or circle on which the lighter unit symbol was stencilled. While there were "rules" the Waffen-SS used whatever paint was available, usually something that would stand out to an extent on camouflage or green/grey vehicle paint, white, cream, pale yellow, whatever. See File:SS Viking motorbike.jpg and File:Bundesarchiv Bild 101III-Altstadt-055-37, Russland, Panzer III, Waffen-SS-Division "Wiking".jpg for examples from the Wiking division. In any case, you can say it implies what you like, but as far as WP is concerned that is OR, and you do not have a reliable source for it. However, Keegan depicts the unit symbol exactly as it is in 21st Waffen Division of the SS vehicle symbol.svg. [[User:Peacemaker67|Peacemaker67]] ([[User_talk:Peacemaker67|click to talk to me]]) 09:56, 17 September 2023 (UTC) |
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:::Here's the thing: they wore both. At least the Skanderbegs and similar "international" SS units did. On the collar or right sleeve you had the divisional patch (with very few exceptions white symbol on black) - and on the left some sort of national arms. This was the case with the Bosniak Handschar and Kama divisions (who carried the Croatian checkerboard), and the Skanderbegs with their Albanian black-on-red double-headed eagle. Sometimes they had both, sometimes they didn't, but either way those are two different patches both of which would ideally be worn [https:/upwiki/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Celler_Garnison_Museum_Celle_Niedersachsen_29_Germany_German_WW2_uniforms_Africa_Middle_East%2C_13th_SS_Handschar_Division%2C_fez%2C_Wehrmacht_Afrikkorps_etc._Photo_www.euro-t-guide.com_2009_Free_use_No_known_copyright_restrictions.jpg][https://i.pinimg.com/564x/93/36/10/933610e7bfc177a14ec7d85eb0470f2a.jpg]. From the actual preserved militaria of the division, it's patch/symbol is obvious. Also have a look at the cover of a published book specifically dedicated to the history of the 21st [https://i.pinimg.com/564x/93/36/10/933610e7bfc177a14ec7d85eb0470f2a.jpg]. I'll grant you it's not Keegan, but neither does it contradict him because, from what I can gather - he only describes their ''vehicle symbol.'' Whereas, yes, the SS Divisions actually ''did,'' as a rule, have "logos". Their divisional insignia. Far from OR, I'd say this WP:BLUE. You can literally just look it up with a quick search. I figured this actual pennant of the Skanderbeg division would resolve the issue [http://www.spandaumilitariashop.com/ss-skanderbeg-pennant/]. <font face="Eras Bold ITC">-- [[User:Director|<span style="color:#353535">Director</span>]] <span style="color:#464646">([[User talk:Director|<span style="color:#464646">talk</span>]])</span></font> 10:23, 17 September 2023 (UTC) |
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::::It's not BLUE, and Spandau Militaria isn't a reliable source. [[User:Peacemaker67|Peacemaker67]] ([[User_talk:Peacemaker67|click to talk to me]]) 10:39, 17 September 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::Now you're just wikilawyering. There is such a thing as common sense: the SS divisions had actual specific insignia as seperate from their vehicle symbols - and they're not a mystery. Looking at the matter more carefully I find these collar tabs (depicting Skanderbeg's fabulous helmet plumage) also appear [https://www.germanmilitaria.com/WaffenSS/photos/S008084A.jpg]. One way or another I don't see why we should use the vehicle symbol. The divisional insignia was certainly either a white eagle on black or the Skanderbeg's helmet - white-on-black. Just like virtually all SS Divisions. <font face="Eras Bold ITC">-- [[User:Director|<span style="color:#353535">Director</span>]] <span style="color:#464646">([[User talk:Director|<span style="color:#464646">talk</span>]])</span></font> 10:45, 17 September 2023 (UTC) |
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