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m Archiving 1 discussion to Talk:Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky/Archive 5. (BOT)
 
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==Spelling His Name==
{{Article history
''ok, so how should we spell Tchaikovsky's name? I've seen a few different versions here. What is considered 'correct' transliteration? If/when we reach consensus, the content should be moved to a page with the agreed and the other pages redirect to it.''
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|action2=WPR
Pyotor would be the Russian word: for these purposes (an English encyclopedia), it should be Peter
|action2date=16:01, 7 July 2008
|action2link=Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Peer review/Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky
|action2result=reviewed
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:I don't want to get involved in the mire that is a transliteration discussion, but I should think that "Peter Ilyich Tchaikovsky" is the most usual spelling of his name at this time in the West. Maybe (maybe) the article should be moved, but I ain't doing it. --[[User:Camembert|Camembert]]
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:: My opinion. This is a general problem with the similar Russian names and surnames (for example Chebyshev, Joffe, Fock (or Fok) and such). I know that many times even Russians can't agree what is correct latin transliteration. They can use several different names even in their passports and it is just fine at customs. Another problem is that Russian write western names in their own "strange" transliteration and not in the original (so [[Isaac Newton|Newton]] would be somehow [[Newton|Nyutn]]). Therefore I use (until I am stopped to do this by the other wikipedians) in English Wikipedia original Russian names, so I would also include in this particular article his Russian original name as <font color=darkred> &#1055;&#1100;&#1086;&#1090;&#1088; &#1048;&#1083;&#1080;&#1095; &#1063;&#1072;&#1081;&#1082;&#1086;&#1074;&#1089;&#1082;&#1080;</font> (This probably won't be shown correctly all over - fixed later on). And also for instance we westeners usually use only one (or first) name (e.g. John F. Kennedy). Russians, as I know, they call themselves not by surnames but with their name and their ''otchestvo'' (''father's name'' - second name). Regarding Pyotr I do believe this is the right and the only way to traslate to latin Russian personal names. It is true that Peter is English name - but we can't translate "the meaning". It is okay untill we have a list of all posibilities and I am shure it would be very long. For instance how would be Tchaikovsky's daugter called in English then: Natasha Pyotrnovna Tchaikovsky or Natasha Peternovna Tchaikovsky? Best regard. -- [[User:XJamRastafire|XJamRastafire]] 09:22 Jul 28, 2002 (PDT)
|action4date=23:40, 29 March 2009
|action4link=Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky
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|topic=music
::: Yes, "Peternova" does look vaguely ridiculous. My feeling was that "Peter Ilyich" would be best because it is the most common spelling in English speaking countries (I admit I have no evidence to back this up, but I suspect it is true - a quick Google search appears to back this up). But on reflection, I think it's probably best to consult a number of large English language music dictionaries (such as Grove) and see how they tackle the problem - I suspect that they will have used the same spelling we have here at present ("Pyotr Ilyich"). In any event, it isn't a particularly pressing problem so long as one central article is maintained with redirects dealing with any stray links. I think placing the cyrillic on the page is a good idea, but I can't see it, and I think somebody who can should do it. Thanks --[[User:Camembert|Camembert]]
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|otd1date=2017-05-07|otd1oldid=779153355
::: I am glad that someone slightly agree with my 'NPOV'. And as I know for instance [[Donald Knuth|Donald Ervin Knuth]] has on the net such long list about the Russian names of which he would like to get through, probably once and for all. That is why this is not just my kind of fashion as someones here think. And BTW I adore Tchaikovsky's music even if some rumours are there out he was somehow [[gay]] and with strange [[sexual orientation]]. Music, I guess does not know any boundaries. Thank you, too. -- [[User:XJamRastafire|XJamRastafire]] 18:44 Jul 30, 2002 (PDT)
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{{User:ClueBot III/ArchiveThis
::::Cuz it's just so bizarre for gay men to be in the music and ballet business. [[user:Montrealais|montr&eacute;alais]]
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#[[/Archive 1|2002-September 2008]]
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== Relationship with Bob ==
Jeronimo moved this page to [[Pyotr Tchaikovsky]], which I think is wrong, so I've moved it back - however his name gets spelled, it is very rare indeed for people to refer to him as "Peter Tchaikovsky"; is it either "Peter Ilitch Tchaikovsky" or simply "Tchaikovsky" (Google confirms that ommitting the middle name is relatively uncommon). --[[User:Camembert|Camembert]]


The wording of this section suggests that Tchiakovsky’s letters penned after Bob’s suicide were revealing. Tchaikovsky in fact died nearly 20 years before the suicide of Bob. [[Special:Contributions/2604:3D09:1887:B000:4141:EB9:FAF1:6BBF|2604:3D09:1887:B000:4141:EB9:FAF1:6BBF]] ([[User talk:2604:3D09:1887:B000:4141:EB9:FAF1:6BBF|talk]]) 17:41, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
===Russian Alphabet===
The Cyrillic letters show accents over the 'myagkii znak' in Ilyich, and over the -k- in Tchaikovsky. These are wrong. You can't accent consonants in Russian. They belong over the second -i- in Ilyich and the -o- in Tchaikovsky. [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] 05:51, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
----
==Nutcracker==
Also, let it be known that Tchaikovsky did not write a ''ballet'' called ''The Nutcracker Suite''. He wrote a ballet called ''The Nutcracker'' and then extracted some pieces from it to make the concert work ''The Nutcracker Suite'' (ie a suite of peices taken from the ballet ''The Nutcracker''). A lot of people get confused about this, so I'm clarifying it before anybody changes it back again. --[[User:Camembert|Camembert]]


:Yes, that is confusing. [[Special:Contributions/73.141.78.51|73.141.78.51]] ([[User talk:73.141.78.51|talk]]) 17:35, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
:While we're at it, he didn't write a Symphony No. 6 in B minor called the "pathetic symphony" either. According to the Oxford Dictionary of Music, "patetichesky" in Russian means "passionate".[[User:Ortolan88|Ortolan88]]


::I've swapped the order of the last two clauses in that sentence, which I believe removes the anachronistic implication. [[User:Matt Gies|Matt Gies]] ([[User talk:Matt Gies|talk]]) 19:13, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
==Suicide==
Is it really "generaly accepted that his death was by suicide"? Dutch Wikipedia for instance says the exact opposite: death due to cholera with rumours that this was intentional poisoning.


== [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Portr%C3%A4t_des_Komponisten_Pjotr_I._Tschaikowski_(1840-1893).jpg 1893 Portrait] ==
: This has been the cause of a great deal of debate, and to date there is no definitive answer. One theory is that a secret court sentenced him to suicide or face being exposed as a homosexual, for his sexual involvement with the son of a member of the aristocracy. Another is it was suicide for other reasons. Another is that it was plain foolhardiness in drinking unboiled water during a cholera epidemic, to prove he was not susceptible to it. We may never know. [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] 05:51, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)


Should we use it? It was made the same year (albeit before) he died and I think it is the only painting of him made in his lifetime. [[User:Wikieditor662|Wikieditor662]] ([[User talk:Wikieditor662|talk]]) 06:25, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
:According to Robert Greenburg (source cited in article), there is no longer a question of what happened. His lecture refers to evidence released by the Russian government. ''<>< [[User:Tim Chambers|tbc]] 05:32, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)''


:What makes it better than the current high-quality photograph? '''<span style="font-family:Lucida;">[[User:Aza24|<span style="color:darkred">Aza24</span>]][[User talk:Aza24|<span style="color:#848484"> (talk)</span>]]</span>''' 15:58, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
==Piano==
::I didn't say it has to be in the lead (although perhaps that is an option), I just pointed out the option to add it to the article - perhaps at around the time soon before he died [[User:Wikieditor662|Wikieditor662]] ([[User talk:Wikieditor662|talk]]) 03:40, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
This may not be necessary, but just to clarify: an anon editor keeps changing the age at which he began studying piano from five to six. This is incorrect. He began lessons in 1845, at the age of five, and even more amazing, he wrote a song to his mother (according to a letter from his father) in September 1844, at the age of FOUR. The anon editor's last change did verify that the intent was vandalism all along. [[User:Antandrus|Antandrus]] 17:48, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
:::It is a nice painting, and rather frequently reproduced. This article is rather-below FA standard and will need heavy revision at some point. For instance, I just trimmed some excessive images and there's still no place for the painting. We should keep this on the back burner, pending article expansion. '''<span style="font-family:Lucida;">[[User:Aza24|<span style="color:darkred">Aza24</span>]][[User talk:Aza24|<span style="color:#848484"> (talk)</span>]]</span>''' 21:44, 25 August 2024 (UTC)


== Biography ==
== Number of portraits ==


The number of photographs was overdoing it. But I do regret the loss of some of them. Maybe being a simple soul I like to think about people as having recongisable faces. And for that reason I regret the loss of some close associates: Chakovskiy's wife, the very importanat Nadyezhda von Meck, whose husband had made a fortune from the railway line that took Ukrainian wheat to RUssia, etc.
Some links in the section might better be removed - see [[Wikipedia:Make only links relevant to the context]]? [[User:Schissel|Schissel]] : [[User_talk:Schissel|''bowl listen'']] 21:41, July 20, 2005 (UTC)


Could we have some of these pictures back please?
== Greenberg ==
[[User:Foiled circuitous wanderer|Foiled circuitous wanderer]] ([[User talk:Foiled circuitous wanderer|talk]]) 15:13, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
I [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Pyotr_Ilyich_Tchaikovsky&oldid=15323816 made some edits] based on Robert Greenberg's "Great Masters: Tchaikovsky -- His Life and Music." Those edits were removed without comment. I haven't tracked down who did it yet (comments would make that easier), but I am curious to know why my edits were blown away. Is Greenberg an unreliable source? ''<>< [[User:Tim Chambers|tbc]] 14:05, 21 July 2005 (UTC)''


:Not sure what you mean, Tchaikovsky's wife is still there (personal life section), as is Nadyezhda von Meck (opera composer section). '''<span style="font-family:Lucida;">[[User:Aza24|<span style="color:darkred">Aza24</span>]][[User talk:Aza24|<span style="color:#848484"> (talk)</span>]]</span>''' 23:02, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
:It evidently was here [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Pyotr_Ilyich_Tchaikovsky&diff=17768791&oldid=15921216]. (Tempted to leave a rant here about people who make big changes and mark them as a "minor edit.") I remember your addition; I edited it myself to give both sides of the story, and indicate the source (Orlova) as well as that it is controversial, with a lot of musicologists vigorously opposing it (the writeup in the recent [[New Grove]] is pretty good). Go ahead and put back the details if you want. IMO Greenberg is a good and reliable source; I've gone to numerous lectures of his in SF in the last few years; though he tends to emphasize one side of contentious issues he's very thorough in his research. [[User:Antandrus|Antandrus ]] [[User_talk:Antandrus|(talk)]] 15:54, 21 July 2005 (UTC)


== Category:Historical figures with ambiguous or disputed sexuality ==
== His favourite painting ==
Please see a question I've posted at [[Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities]] regarding the identity of the author of Tchaikovsky's favourite painting ''Melancholy''. Please reply only there, not here. [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] 03:09, 30 October 2005 (UTC)


There are various competing theories and interpretations of Tchaikovsky's sexual orientation, and I was wondering if it would be appropriate to add the [[:Category:Historical figures with ambiguous or disputed sexuality]] to connect his article with other similar discussions. I don't see this as expressing an opinion one way or another, it is simply recognizing that these historical interpretations exist. [[User:Rylee Amelia|Rylee Amelia]] ([[User talk:Rylee Amelia|talk]]) 02:41, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
== Family connection with Rimsky-Korsakov ==


:According to this cited passage in the article: "Biographers have generally agreed that Tchaikovsky was homosexual". There appears to be no dispute about this (I've never heard of one), despite his failed marriage to a woman. [[Simon Morrison]]'s recent biography is unequivocal about Tchaikovsky's homosexuality. He reaffirmed this [https://musicwebinternational.com/2024/07/an-interview-with-author-simon-morrison/ in an interview a few months ago]. Morrison also said that Tchaikovsky's wife knew in advance that he was gay. The only thing Morrison disputed was that the Soviets suppressed knowledge of Tchaikovsky's homosexuality. (If anything, he said that homophobia about Tchaikovsky is "mostly non-Russian".) —[[User:CurryTime7-24|CurryTime7-24]] ([[User talk:CurryTime7-24|talk]]) 02:59, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
[[User:Mllefifi|Mllefifi]] removed the following, on the basis that Rimsky was married only once, and not to a Davidova:
*''He had some interesting family connections to Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov. Rimsky married in turn two of Tchaikovsky's nieces, the sisters Vera and Natalia Davydova. Tchaikovsky's brother Nikolai adopted his great-nephew Georges-Léon Blumenfeld, who was also Rimsky-Korsakov's nephew by marriage (his mother was Vera's and Natalia's sister Tatyana).''

I obtained that information from [[John Warrack]]'s book "Tchaikovsky" (Hamish Hamilton, London, 1973; ISBN 024102403). However, on closer inspection, I discover that although the text has many references to R-K, it says nothing about him being related by marriage to Tchikovsky. The info is contained in the Davidov family tree shown inside the back cover. It seems that Vera and Natalia Davidov did both marry '''a''' Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov, but not '''the''' Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov. The composer R-K did indeed marry only once, to a woman named Purgold. I must take Mr Warrack to task for allowing this false impression to be so easily gained by not disambiguating the Rimskie-Korsakovy. Ah well, there goes another bit of "history". Thanks. [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] 20:10, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

== Broken links ==

Is there a reason for there being links to files which don't exist in this article? I've removed the link to a file which was intentionally deleted, but there doesn't seen to be any reason for having the other ones here. Unless anyone objects, I'll come back and delete the other broken links later. [[User:Caillan|Caillan]] 03:19, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
*It's been nearly 24 hours now. They've been removed. [[User:Caillan|Caillan]] 01:02, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

== Pederasty ==
On 13 Sep. Hugh7 made changes ([http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Pyotr_Ilyich_Tchaikovsky&diff=23154043&oldid=23046225 diff]) with no explanation. I see no reason not to be specific. Tchaikovsky wasn't "gay" as the [[Political correctness|PC]] police would have the term used -- Greenberg makes clear that the composer's passions were reserved exclusively for adolescent boys. If anyone wants to explain why this fact shouldn't be in the article (Hugh7?), I'm listening. ''<>< [[User:Tim Chambers|tbc]] 04:08, 28 November 2005 (UTC)''

Latest revision as of 06:58, 6 December 2024

Featured articlePyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on October 17, 2009.
On this day... Article milestones
DateProcessResult
September 3, 2007Peer reviewReviewed
July 7, 2008WikiProject peer reviewReviewed
March 18, 2009Good article nomineeListed
March 29, 2009Featured article candidatePromoted
On this day... Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on May 7, 2017, and May 7, 2020.
Current status: Featured article


Relationship with Bob

[edit]

The wording of this section suggests that Tchiakovsky’s letters penned after Bob’s suicide were revealing. Tchaikovsky in fact died nearly 20 years before the suicide of Bob. 2604:3D09:1887:B000:4141:EB9:FAF1:6BBF (talk) 17:41, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that is confusing. 73.141.78.51 (talk) 17:35, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've swapped the order of the last two clauses in that sentence, which I believe removes the anachronistic implication. Matt Gies (talk) 19:13, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1893 Portrait

[edit]

Should we use it? It was made the same year (albeit before) he died and I think it is the only painting of him made in his lifetime. Wikieditor662 (talk) 06:25, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What makes it better than the current high-quality photograph? Aza24 (talk) 15:58, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't say it has to be in the lead (although perhaps that is an option), I just pointed out the option to add it to the article - perhaps at around the time soon before he died Wikieditor662 (talk) 03:40, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is a nice painting, and rather frequently reproduced. This article is rather-below FA standard and will need heavy revision at some point. For instance, I just trimmed some excessive images and there's still no place for the painting. We should keep this on the back burner, pending article expansion. Aza24 (talk) 21:44, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Number of portraits

[edit]

The number of photographs was overdoing it. But I do regret the loss of some of them. Maybe being a simple soul I like to think about people as having recongisable faces. And for that reason I regret the loss of some close associates: Chakovskiy's wife, the very importanat Nadyezhda von Meck, whose husband had made a fortune from the railway line that took Ukrainian wheat to RUssia, etc.

Could we have some of these pictures back please? Foiled circuitous wanderer (talk) 15:13, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure what you mean, Tchaikovsky's wife is still there (personal life section), as is Nadyezhda von Meck (opera composer section). Aza24 (talk) 23:02, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Historical figures with ambiguous or disputed sexuality

[edit]

There are various competing theories and interpretations of Tchaikovsky's sexual orientation, and I was wondering if it would be appropriate to add the Category:Historical figures with ambiguous or disputed sexuality to connect his article with other similar discussions. I don't see this as expressing an opinion one way or another, it is simply recognizing that these historical interpretations exist. Rylee Amelia (talk) 02:41, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

According to this cited passage in the article: "Biographers have generally agreed that Tchaikovsky was homosexual". There appears to be no dispute about this (I've never heard of one), despite his failed marriage to a woman. Simon Morrison's recent biography is unequivocal about Tchaikovsky's homosexuality. He reaffirmed this in an interview a few months ago. Morrison also said that Tchaikovsky's wife knew in advance that he was gay. The only thing Morrison disputed was that the Soviets suppressed knowledge of Tchaikovsky's homosexuality. (If anything, he said that homophobia about Tchaikovsky is "mostly non-Russian".) —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 02:59, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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