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m Archiving 1 discussion to Talk:Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky/Archive 5. (BOT)
 
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''ok, so how should we spell Tchaikovsky's name? I've seen a few different versions here. What is considered 'correct' transliteration? If/when we reach consensus, the content should be moved to a page with the agreed and the other pages redirect to it.''
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|action2=WPR
Pyotor would be the Russian word: for these purposes (an English encyclopedia), it should be Peter
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:I don't want to get involved in the mire that is a transliteration discussion, but I should think that "Peter Ilyich Tchaikovsky" is the most usual spelling of his name at this time in the West. Maybe (maybe) the article should be moved, but I ain't doing it. --[[User:Camembert|Camembert]]
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:: My opinion. This is a general problem with the similar Russian names and surnames (for example Chebyshev, Joffe, Fock (or Fok) and such). I know that many times even Russians can't agree what is correct latin transliteration. They can use several different names even in their passports and it is just fine at customs. Another problem is that Russian write western names in their own "strange" transliteration and not in the original (so [[Isaac Newton|Newton]] would be somehow [[Newton|Nyutn]]). Therefore I use (until I am stopped to do this by the other wikipedians) in English Wikipedia original Russian names, so I would also include in this particular article his Russian original name as <font color=darkred> &#1055;&#1100;&#1086;&#1090;&#1088; &#1048;&#1083;&#1080;&#1095; &#1063;&#1072;&#1081;&#1082;&#1086;&#1074;&#1089;&#1082;&#1080;</font> (This probably won't be shown correctly all over - fixed later on). And also for instance we westeners usually use only one (or first) name (e.g. John F. Kennedy). Russians, as I know, they call themselves not by surnames but with their name and their ''otchestvo'' (''father's name'' - second name). Regarding Pyotr I do believe this is the right and the only way to traslate to latin Russian personal names. It is true that Peter is English name - but we can't translate "the meaning". It is okay untill we have a list of all posibilities and I am shure it would be very long. For instance how would be Tchaikovsky's daugter called in English then: Natasha Pyotrnovna Tchaikovsky or Natasha Peternovna Tchaikovsky? Best regard. -- [[User:XJamRastafire|XJamRastafire]] 09:22 Jul 28, 2002 (PDT)
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|topic=music
::: Yes, "Peternova" does look vaguely ridiculous. My feeling was that "Peter Ilyich" would be best because it is the most common spelling in English speaking countries (I admit I have no evidence to back this up, but I suspect it is true - a quick Google search appears to back this up). But on reflection, I think it's probably best to consult a number of large English language music dictionaries (such as Grove) and see how they tackle the problem - I suspect that they will have used the same spelling we have here at present ("Pyotr Ilyich"). In any event, it isn't a particularly pressing problem so long as one central article is maintained with redirects dealing with any stray links. I think placing the cyrillic on the page is a good idea, but I can't see it, and I think somebody who can should do it. Thanks --[[User:Camembert|Camembert]]
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::: I am glad that someone slightly agree with my 'NPOV'. And as I know for instance [[Donald Knuth|Donald Ervin Knuth]] has on the net such long list about the Russian names of which he would like to get through, probably once and for all. That is why this is not just my kind of fashion as someones here think. And BTW I adore Tchaikovsky's music even if some rumours are there out he was somehow [[gay]] and with strange [[sexual orientation]]. Music, I guess does not know any boundaries. Thank you, too. -- [[User:XJamRastafire|XJamRastafire]] 18:44 Jul 30, 2002 (PDT)
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::::Cuz it's just so bizarre for gay men to be in the music and ballet business. [[user:Montrealais|montr&eacute;alais]]
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== Relationship with Bob ==
Also, let it be known that Tchaikovsky did not write a ''ballet'' called ''The Nutcracker Suite''. He wrote a ballet called ''The Nutcracker'' and then extracted some pieces from it to make the concert work ''The Nutcracker Suite'' (ie a suite of peices taken from the ballet ''The Nutcracker''). A lot of people get confused about this, so I'm clarifying it before anybody changes it back again. --[[User:Camembert|Camembert]]


The wording of this section suggests that Tchiakovsky’s letters penned after Bob’s suicide were revealing. Tchaikovsky in fact died nearly 20 years before the suicide of Bob. [[Special:Contributions/2604:3D09:1887:B000:4141:EB9:FAF1:6BBF|2604:3D09:1887:B000:4141:EB9:FAF1:6BBF]] ([[User talk:2604:3D09:1887:B000:4141:EB9:FAF1:6BBF|talk]]) 17:41, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
:While we're at it, he didn't write a Symphony No. 6 in B minor called the "pathetic symphony" either. According to the Oxford Dictionary of Music, "patetichesky" in Russian means "passionate".[[User:Ortolan88|Ortolan88]]


:Yes, that is confusing. [[Special:Contributions/73.141.78.51|73.141.78.51]] ([[User talk:73.141.78.51|talk]]) 17:35, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
----

Jeronimo moved this page to [[Pyotr Tchaikovsky]], which I think is wrong, so I've moved it back - however his name gets spelled, it is very rare indeed for people to refer to him as "Peter Tchaikovsky"; is it either "Peter Ilitch Tchaikovsky" or simply "Tchaikovsky" (Google confirms that ommitting the middle name is relatively uncommon). --[[User:Camembert|Camembert]]
::I've swapped the order of the last two clauses in that sentence, which I believe removes the anachronistic implication. [[User:Matt Gies|Matt Gies]] ([[User talk:Matt Gies|talk]]) 19:13, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

== [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Portr%C3%A4t_des_Komponisten_Pjotr_I._Tschaikowski_(1840-1893).jpg 1893 Portrait] ==

Should we use it? It was made the same year (albeit before) he died and I think it is the only painting of him made in his lifetime. [[User:Wikieditor662|Wikieditor662]] ([[User talk:Wikieditor662|talk]]) 06:25, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

:What makes it better than the current high-quality photograph? '''<span style="font-family:Lucida;">[[User:Aza24|<span style="color:darkred">Aza24</span>]][[User talk:Aza24|<span style="color:#848484"> (talk)</span>]]</span>''' 15:58, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
::I didn't say it has to be in the lead (although perhaps that is an option), I just pointed out the option to add it to the article - perhaps at around the time soon before he died [[User:Wikieditor662|Wikieditor662]] ([[User talk:Wikieditor662|talk]]) 03:40, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
:::It is a nice painting, and rather frequently reproduced. This article is rather-below FA standard and will need heavy revision at some point. For instance, I just trimmed some excessive images and there's still no place for the painting. We should keep this on the back burner, pending article expansion. '''<span style="font-family:Lucida;">[[User:Aza24|<span style="color:darkred">Aza24</span>]][[User talk:Aza24|<span style="color:#848484"> (talk)</span>]]</span>''' 21:44, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

== Number of portraits ==

The number of photographs was overdoing it. But I do regret the loss of some of them. Maybe being a simple soul I like to think about people as having recongisable faces. And for that reason I regret the loss of some close associates: Chakovskiy's wife, the very importanat Nadyezhda von Meck, whose husband had made a fortune from the railway line that took Ukrainian wheat to RUssia, etc.

Could we have some of these pictures back please?
[[User:Foiled circuitous wanderer|Foiled circuitous wanderer]] ([[User talk:Foiled circuitous wanderer|talk]]) 15:13, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

:Not sure what you mean, Tchaikovsky's wife is still there (personal life section), as is Nadyezhda von Meck (opera composer section). '''<span style="font-family:Lucida;">[[User:Aza24|<span style="color:darkred">Aza24</span>]][[User talk:Aza24|<span style="color:#848484"> (talk)</span>]]</span>''' 23:02, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

== Category:Historical figures with ambiguous or disputed sexuality ==

There are various competing theories and interpretations of Tchaikovsky's sexual orientation, and I was wondering if it would be appropriate to add the [[:Category:Historical figures with ambiguous or disputed sexuality]] to connect his article with other similar discussions. I don't see this as expressing an opinion one way or another, it is simply recognizing that these historical interpretations exist. [[User:Rylee Amelia|Rylee Amelia]] ([[User talk:Rylee Amelia|talk]]) 02:41, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

:According to this cited passage in the article: "Biographers have generally agreed that Tchaikovsky was homosexual". There appears to be no dispute about this (I've never heard of one), despite his failed marriage to a woman. [[Simon Morrison]]'s recent biography is unequivocal about Tchaikovsky's homosexuality. He reaffirmed this [https://musicwebinternational.com/2024/07/an-interview-with-author-simon-morrison/ in an interview a few months ago]. Morrison also said that Tchaikovsky's wife knew in advance that he was gay. The only thing Morrison disputed was that the Soviets suppressed knowledge of Tchaikovsky's homosexuality. (If anything, he said that homophobia about Tchaikovsky is "mostly non-Russian".) —[[User:CurryTime7-24|CurryTime7-24]] ([[User talk:CurryTime7-24|talk]]) 02:59, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 06:58, 6 December 2024

Featured articlePyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on October 17, 2009.
On this day... Article milestones
DateProcessResult
September 3, 2007Peer reviewReviewed
July 7, 2008WikiProject peer reviewReviewed
March 18, 2009Good article nomineeListed
March 29, 2009Featured article candidatePromoted
On this day... Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on May 7, 2017, and May 7, 2020.
Current status: Featured article


Relationship with Bob

[edit]

The wording of this section suggests that Tchiakovsky’s letters penned after Bob’s suicide were revealing. Tchaikovsky in fact died nearly 20 years before the suicide of Bob. 2604:3D09:1887:B000:4141:EB9:FAF1:6BBF (talk) 17:41, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that is confusing. 73.141.78.51 (talk) 17:35, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've swapped the order of the last two clauses in that sentence, which I believe removes the anachronistic implication. Matt Gies (talk) 19:13, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1893 Portrait

[edit]

Should we use it? It was made the same year (albeit before) he died and I think it is the only painting of him made in his lifetime. Wikieditor662 (talk) 06:25, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What makes it better than the current high-quality photograph? Aza24 (talk) 15:58, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't say it has to be in the lead (although perhaps that is an option), I just pointed out the option to add it to the article - perhaps at around the time soon before he died Wikieditor662 (talk) 03:40, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is a nice painting, and rather frequently reproduced. This article is rather-below FA standard and will need heavy revision at some point. For instance, I just trimmed some excessive images and there's still no place for the painting. We should keep this on the back burner, pending article expansion. Aza24 (talk) 21:44, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Number of portraits

[edit]

The number of photographs was overdoing it. But I do regret the loss of some of them. Maybe being a simple soul I like to think about people as having recongisable faces. And for that reason I regret the loss of some close associates: Chakovskiy's wife, the very importanat Nadyezhda von Meck, whose husband had made a fortune from the railway line that took Ukrainian wheat to RUssia, etc.

Could we have some of these pictures back please? Foiled circuitous wanderer (talk) 15:13, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure what you mean, Tchaikovsky's wife is still there (personal life section), as is Nadyezhda von Meck (opera composer section). Aza24 (talk) 23:02, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Historical figures with ambiguous or disputed sexuality

[edit]

There are various competing theories and interpretations of Tchaikovsky's sexual orientation, and I was wondering if it would be appropriate to add the Category:Historical figures with ambiguous or disputed sexuality to connect his article with other similar discussions. I don't see this as expressing an opinion one way or another, it is simply recognizing that these historical interpretations exist. Rylee Amelia (talk) 02:41, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

According to this cited passage in the article: "Biographers have generally agreed that Tchaikovsky was homosexual". There appears to be no dispute about this (I've never heard of one), despite his failed marriage to a woman. Simon Morrison's recent biography is unequivocal about Tchaikovsky's homosexuality. He reaffirmed this in an interview a few months ago. Morrison also said that Tchaikovsky's wife knew in advance that he was gay. The only thing Morrison disputed was that the Soviets suppressed knowledge of Tchaikovsky's homosexuality. (If anything, he said that homophobia about Tchaikovsky is "mostly non-Russian".) —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 02:59, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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