Talk:Grade inflation

Recommendation to either remove or expand sections on specific schools

The blurbs on specific schools generally appear pretty cherrypicked. It would seem that the article should have some prescribed basis for deciding which schools to include.

Century High School, Vancouver

Surprised not to see the scandal in BC and Ontario of private schools targeting ESL students. Quite a few articles on this, particularly looking at Century High School in Vancouver where most students failed the provincial exam but got As in their coursework. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.180.218.83 (talk) 23:12, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Causes

In reference to the incident at the University of Alabama, this section is very biased. This draws a generalization about the state of the entire UA education system based on a few classes. The average GPA in each major is similar to the national average, which in no way can mean there is "extreme grade inflation" here. In addition, this section has no sources and references an incident that happened 8 years ago. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.67.110.3 (talk) 04:54, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

what causes it? simple -- students give better course evaluations to professors when professors hand out better grades. give a C or D on the midterm, and you will get punished come evaluation time. and of course the professors care, since their own advancement and salary are influenced by the teaching evaluations. Wolfman 22:09, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Not true. The cause of "grade inflation" is the subsidizing of higher ed via student loans, Pell Grants and price fixing among the colleges. Because they don't have to compete on the basis of true price/value relationships, the schools compete on the basis of inflated grades. 216.153.214.94 22:45, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well, Rex. How many courses have you taught? I've been a professor for over a decade, at 3 different major universities. I've spent dozens of hours in faculty meetings about this. I personally know I give higher grades because of it, and almost all of my colleagues admit it too. Your economic logic about competition is utterly incoherent, by the way. First, there is relatively little that administrations can do about grading policies except for moral suasion. No one tells me what grades I can hand out. Second, schools are still in competition with each other, even if overall demand goes up as a consequence of subsidies. To the extent that administrators can set overall grading policy, they have an incentive to allow high grades. Why? Because that's precisely what draws good students. After all, what determines "value" to a student? The likelihood of a good GPA, and thus a good job or entrance to med school is very high on the "value" list. Stanford hands out 40% A's. That's not because of Pell grants. Now I'm sure there are some professors who are immune to these pressures, but I personally don't know any. Wolfman 23:36, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hmmm... since you just admitted you give unwarranted higher grades for CYA reasons, you just admitted that you have no moral backbone. Surely your example is proof postive of the corruption of higher education. Principly, corruption occurs when there is lack of competition. Thank you for proving my point. 216.153.214.94 03:17, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The only thing immoral would be not teaching well and not caring if students learn. Though ultimately I get judged primarily by my research output, the single thing in my career I am most proud of and most enjoy is working individually with students. I personally think grades are utterly ridiculous. It shouldn't be about the grade on a piece of paper, it should be about learning -- and the two are very imperfectly correlated. I could go on at great length about how corrupt the system is, but I don't think the people involved are. Neither the students who worry more about grades than about learning, nor the professors who nudge grades up slightly to keep students happy. The irony of being lectured on morals of all thing by a hardcore Pharisee rightwinger is mind-boggling. Or was Jesus a Republican? Wolfman 06:44, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Wolfman; there is a Chinese proverb which says "If you sit by the river long enough, you see the bodies of your enemies float by". Likewise, by me waiting long enough, you have revealed yourself to be the biased, anti-Christian bigot that you are. Nice going. 216.153.214.94 06:48, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

BTW: What do you teach your students? How to make bigoted comments? 216.153.214.94 06:50, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Wolfman, I would like to say that I am an undergrad myself and I would like to say that given the quality of your opinions and the obvious accompanying intellect, I would be happy to have you as a professor anyday. --kizzle 03:51, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)

Kizzle says "Teach me Wolfman. Indoctrinate me in the mysterious ways of liberal-bias". 216.153.214.94 06:45, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

its all the fault of the librals!!!

Rex, what do you do that makes you so high and mighty, a janitor? --kizzle 07:17, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)

Ha, Ha, Ha. Economic elitism bigotry - another funny one! 216.153.214.94 15:14, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

you would know all about economic elitism bigotry, you're a republican :) --kizzle 20:10, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)

It seems to me that the schools who complain about grade inflation are very selective (Harvard and Stanford are two mentioned in the article). This is pure speculation, but has any thought been given to the idea that these schools accept very few people who would get C's or lower in their classes? People who get into Ivy League schools, Stanford, MIT, etc. are at the tops of their classes in high school, do well on standardized tests, and are involved in all sorts of extracurricular activities. It seems to me, given all that work to get in, students at these schools have already shown that they are capable of excelling at these institutions and if they aren't, many of them are so used to getting A's (and maybe the occasional B), that they would drop classes they aren't going to do well in. --Hazey Jane 08:11, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Therein lies the question do we want to:

• Grade someone on the basis of his comparison to the other students at his school and make the tacit assumption that anyone reading his GPA will know to weigh it with the knowledge of which school that grade came from?

or

• Grade someone on the basis of his comparison to all other students in the country, in which case, it would be absurd not to expect the students of Ivy League schools to have higher GPAs.

What is a grade supposed to mean?

Additionally, I personally know a professor at my school who was fired (he was not tenured) because his students gave him poor evaluations, primarily stating that he was too hard. 66.240.10.170 22:40, 5 February 2006 (UTC)loodog

Maybe its just me, but psychologically, I was more motivated to compete harder when I enrolled in a private school than when I enrolled in a state school. Also, the culture of the student body was more focused on academics at the private school, and I was more likely to find other students helpful in study groups.

It was before my time, but I would bet anything that if I had a student deferment I would have worked a lot harder in school to make sure I kept it.

I found that private school placed less or no grade on attendance, homework or class participation and relied completely on quizzes or tests. Whereas public school grades tended to count these things.

I see affirmative action is conspicuously missing from the discussion...hee hee, so is a discussion about the possibility that students just keep getting smarter every year. Maybe big bird and free lunches has raised grades over the years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.249.246.183 (talk) 15:50, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, grade inflation having happened during the Vietnam war era has led to one cause being attributed to professors keeping deferments from the draft active for their students. There are other later causes mentioned and this one is somewhat suspected as being a just-so rationale since it didn't affect many folks. (See Colorado study) But it seems a common mention - see Insider mention of that from NYTimes History of Grade Inflation which cites Stuart Rojstaczer and Christopher Healy here, or K12 on Causes of Grade Inflation, or First things. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 16:43, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Grade inflation in other countries

I think that this article is too US-centric. Grade inflation occurs in other countries as well, especially in poorer ones, where a large part of the population wants to emigrate. Another cause of grade inflation may be "political correctnes" - teachers assign higher grades to representatives of minorities in fear of otherwise being labeled as intolerant.

Good point. It needs to be changed into terms that are more general. BTW, the short piece about grade problems is very interesting. Maybe some more could be written? My personal experience is that a wrong translation of grades is a big issue. Apupunchau 13:53, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Concerning Europe grade inflation does also exist. (I can only speak for Switzerland, Germany, France and (partially) Spain.) However, here the situation is more complicated, as (inflated or not) grades are only partially important for an academic career. With many professors and at many institutes, having a left/green attitude is more decisive. But before bashing this - surely unfair - practice, one should also be aware that in the private sector there's the opposite. Often, if you only might be leftist or green your qualification is valueless.

These are rather sad facts, which are imo absolutely not just exceptions. I've worked for years, both in academia and in the industry, and have seen that this is almost common practice. I always tried not to act like this, but in both cases the resistance is very strong.

Concerning academia, I noticed that grades per se almost reflect nothing. You need to make other efforts in order to have an idea about a person's skills and competence. Unfortunately, I don't know of any systematic study or reference on this issue. (Btw, see also my comment on "publication inflation" below, or whatever one could call this.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.77.76.31 (talk) 21:35, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

In the UK, stories of grade inflation is often reported in a number of news media. Sometimes, it seems that the questions are becoming easier. In other cases, it appears to be related to a shift from "absolute marking" to "relative marking". I.e.: Under relative (I think) they start off saying that 15% of the students WILL get an A (if grades range from A-E, with A as highest), and then set the grade bands so that approx. 15% of exam scripts will be graded an A. The result is that if you are in a "bad" year (lots of low marks), then it will be easier to get an A. This tends to make it harder to compare grades across years, as you would need to know what the average performance was in that year. The opposite can occurs - there was actually a controversy where exams were marked DOWN because examiners were under pressure to reduce the number of A grades given out. An absolute system would not do this, you either score enough to

make the grade or you don't. --204.4.131.140 (talk) 14:11, 19 November 2007 (UTC) Found some external links [1] and [2]--204.4.131.140 (talk) 14:18, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

In the Netherlands, there are two types of tests in "highschool" (our school system doe not have a complete analogy of a highschool, but it's close enough). The first type of test is graded by the school of the student and one teacher from another school. The second type of test is the "centraal schriftelijk examen", which is a national test, prepared by a national government institution. The final grade will be the average of the grades from both kinds of test. Since the individual schools have no influence on the national test, and every student must do this test in each of his final examination subjects, grade inflation is very visible. If in a particular school, grade inflation would be significant, students will be caught by surprise in the national test, and probably fail it. In practice, the national exams tend to be slightly easier then the school exams, because no school wants his students to be insufficiently prepared. That would certainly raise big complaints. The bottom line is that to counter grade inflation, you need independent criteria. This is feasible, but not easy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.80.203.194 (talk) 15:47, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

a different perspective

I find it hard to understand why anyone thinks that grades can be or should be 'objective.' More than anything else, 'objective' grading rewards those who learn quickly, not those who learn well. How many of us have had the experience of not fully understanding a difficult article on the first (or third, or fifth) reading? Often, that 'eureka' feeling of having fully understood something comes in the shower, on the bus, or two years after a given lecture. On the other hand, I'm sure everyone can identify with the experience of cramming for an exam, then promptly forgetting everything immediately after handing in the exam booklet. It has always seemed to me that giving high grades based on participation and personal progress is probably a more accurate reflection of actual learning -- plus, it encourages students to come to class and hand in assignments, which generally makes them more prepared for the final exam. In any event, grading is a rather vicious activity, and is definitely the one thing that spoils the joy of teaching. Personally, I would rather have my students not worry about their grades, so they can focus on the actual material and the classroom discussion. I find this has excellent results in terms of what students know -- and this is verified by seeing the same students in my advanced courses; they are invariably well-versed in the material. Finally, why should stress be part of the academic environment? It has always seemed to me to be utterly opposed to *learning* of any sort.

In any system designed to compare people, objectivity is the goal, albeit not always fully attainable. Create any test and there will be inequities in attained scores. Some people worked harder and learned more than others who got better scores. Additionally, true to the nature of college students, removal of the grading system would demotivate students rather than encourage them to try harder.

international experience

as a high school student, i can say it's harder for us here at an ib-based international school in brazil to get A's and B's in comparison to your traditional high school in the US... way harder. We had folks here going for 6-month exchanges at american schools and getting all A's and being offered admission to Yale.. and being mediocre students grade-wise when they came back.

All this is very interesting but for an encyclopedia article there need to be sources to show general trends, not just anecdotal evidence. One could probably find many conflicting anecdotes based on this subject but this would, in itself, prove very little without knowing what general trends exist. I also agree with the point made in another section of this page that the article is too concerned with grade inflation in the United States and its academic institutions and a broader overview of the situation across the world is needed. Perhaps, one could have different sub-sections in the article on the situation in different countries. This might be a terrible idea though - any thoughts? Hydraton31 19:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

UC Berkeley GPA

According to the UC Berkeley Office of Student Research, the average GPA at UCB is actually 3.245 as of Spring 2006, up from 3.077 in Spring 1996. Doesn't sound particularly "harsh" to me.

I updated the article to include similar information from the UCB website. --orlady 23:00, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, that's the overall GPA, not the technical GPA. The link is broken so it's not clear if they used a different metric (technical GPA) in 1996 or if they calculated overall GPA in 1996. This means it's not apparent if the science or engineering departments are deviating from the 17% rule. Different departments have their own grading policies so to apply the engineering grading guidelines to all departments is erroneous. This is a weak case of grade inflation at best. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.6.235.206 (talk) 19:20, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia says you should do this.

"Furthermore, those who use grades in determining life outcomes for a student must act as if grade inflation has not occurred, taking the grades at their old, pre-inflated values - otherwise they could simply adjust and grade inflation would not be a serious issue. This could happen either due to neglect, or due to constraints of the grading system itself. For example, if the grading system stipulates an absolute maximum grade, then the problem of picking out the 'cream of the crop', discussed below, naturally comes into play."

Is Wikipedia telling people what to do or is it making an assumption about the practices of people "determining life outcomes"? Either way, I'm not sure it's appropriate. Alex Dodge 06:20, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

And... Publication inflation

Another similar phenomena in current academia is "publication inflation" which seems to be very actual. Any resources, links, references on this topic available? What about an article on this issue? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.77.100.207 (talk) 20:46, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Grade inflation in the Netherlands

Hmm, Grade inflation, or especially diploma inflation, also exist in the Netherlands, where the learning institutions (like universities) get money from the government for each student that enter and also finish his/her education. In a lot of countries in Europe these learning institutions are not financed privately but by the government. So for every student that pass the finish will yield them a profit. Demophon (talk) 04:09, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Also in Sweden

Here the problem is to a large part caused by an ideologically driven wish to put as many people as possible through tertiary education. This has two effects: Firstly, more and more students (necessarily with less and less brains) are entering the system. Secondly, the criteria has to be lowered in order that as many of these as possible receive passing grades. The result is a spiral of grade inflation respectively courses with less and less content and thinking. 188.100.204.101 (talk) 21:33, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Intelligence Citations Bibliography for Articles Related to IQ Testing

I see the Flynn effect has been mentioned in the article text. I have posted a bibliography of Intelligence Citations for the use of all Wikipedians who have occasion to edit articles on human intelligence and related issues. I happen to have circulating access to a huge academic research library at a university with an active research program in those issues (and to another library that is one of the ten largest public library systems in the United States) and have been researching these issues since 1989. You are welcome to use these citations for your own research and to suggest new sources to me by comments on that page. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 16:44, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Arguments by whom?

I don't see a source cited for this argument:

"The US system still allows for students to thrive by offering courses with honors options as well as awarding valedictorians. Many companies in the US also look at GPA while selecting candidates."

I don't know that this statement is entirely accurate. First off, this article is not exclusively about U.S. Education. But granted that this is largely a U.S. problem, I'll ignore that. It's also not directed exclusively to either college or high school classes. While students can enter Honors programs at colleges, this does not affect G.P.A. Honors classes only exist in grades 9-12 in most public (I can't speak for private) education systems. What about 1-8? And, in most cases where "companies in the US" or colleges, or any other party who has any business looking at your G.P.A., a non-weighted G.P.A. is specifically requested; taking honors--especially Advanced Placement, Dual Credit, International Baccalaureate--courses, which are theoretically more challenging than their standard (and lower education) counterparts, would seem to be a problem in itself regarding G.P.A. On the contrary, many college recruiting programmes specify when applying that they do not look at G.P.A. alone, but rather at the courses a student attempted. Many U.S. public schools no longer name valedictorians, because it makes other students feel "inferior." In the WV education system where I graduated, class ranking is a result of both grades and the number of courses taken. Even assuming every class has an honors section, which does not happen, an honors students who makes decent (i.e. B-average) grades, but took a dual enrollment course which took up two class periods (which does happen) could be "ranked" lower than a regular-level student who learned significantly less while drawing pictures in History instead of memorizing laws, but aced the low-level coursework, failed a semester of a math class and was asked to make up the full year instead (which would eliminate the failing grade but keep the passing grade), and did not have any multi-period classes. The top-ranking student, normally the valedictorian, is not always the most qualified. Institutions, especially educational institutions, have seen this trend (which could be part of grade inflation) and most companies/colleges/universities worth applying to will not look exclusively at Grade-point average.

College valedictorians are another story entirely, but this is placed under a section of the article referring to many countries at all levels.

Emolution (talk) 06:39, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

While students can enter Honors programs at colleges, this does not affect G.P.A. Students in Florida high schools are given 4.0+ grades for advanced courses. This results in graduation GPAs commonly above 4.0.When I was in high school in the 1960s, no matter how advanced or difficult a course was, it only earned a maximum of 4.0 (which no one made, BTW).Also, you had to have a minimum 96% test score to get an A. One six-weeks I made a 95 in History, and that was a 3.0, for determining Honor Roll recognition. On another point, I cannot remember ever being asked to give an evaluation of a professor while in college.When did this start? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.71.242.42 (talk) 13:57, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Grade deflation

Since there is not a separate article for Grade deflation, should one be created, or the information included in this article and the name changed (after all, they are two extrema of the same phenomenon)?

For example, in Finnish elite universities it is not rare for over 50% of the students fail some _compulsory_ courses. This may or may not be related to the otherwise different education style of Finland, but I think it might be interesting for some people, given that there seems to be some world-wide interest in the education of Finland due to the surprising success in PISA. Of course, in case no other grade deflation information comes in, the above could be included in the Education in Finland article, do you agree?

Parabole (talk) 13:39, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Britain section - dubious

The section on A-level and GCSE exams is bordering on propaganda. Certain editors have made great use of pieces, including comment pieces, from the Daily Telegraph and the Daily Mail in order to make it appear as though the question of 'grade inflation' is undisputed. I have made some minor edits but I feel the section is in need of a complete rewrite. I would do this but fear I would be scalded for doing so. Hasbn (talk) 14:09, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Have: Introduced a few stats, from the appropriate Gov sites and/or via copies on Press / Academic sites, summarised the latest Ofqual statement, also removed / hacked around some of the existing un-referenced / and previously marked dubious text, more hacking required. Anyone fancy finding a reliable counter source that either: details how the current batch of English 16 year olds have been genetically re-engineered to be 650% smarter than their 1950's educated Grandparents, or explaining how teachers and / or examiners were historically clueless and have deprived previous generations of the grades they deserve :o) --83.104.51.74 (talk) 16:20, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Look past the Global North

As part of the class Global Youth Studies, I am discovering the incredible variation in education throughout the world. Specifically, that there are large achievement gaps between the Global North and the Developing World. This article seems to be speaking from a very westernized perspective. It would interesting to try to incorporate finding about grade inflation in additional countries. In particular, nations such as South Africa may provide an interesting comparison because they traditionally have westernized education systems. It may also be beneficial to add information about the grade inflation in other countries within the Global North but that don't speak English - for example China's education system - as there might be a variation there as well. Plumbla (talk) 22:04, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Merger proposal

Moved from Talk:Credential inflation#Proposed merger with Academic inflation

This discussion was moved from Talk:Credential inflation#Proposed merger with Academic inflation. The proposal now is

Merge Academic inflation, Credential inflation, Credentialism and Credential creep into Grade inflation.

Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:07, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Copied discussion:

• Proposal: It appears the the two articles are on the same topic, so I propose that Academic inflation be merged to Credential inflation. LK (talk) 04:02, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

• Agree - I further propose that Credentialism and Credential creep should be merged here. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 22:09, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

• Agree - I reviewed "The Credentialed Society" by Collins and "The Diploma Disease by Dore." In my opinion, "credential inflation" would work best as the headword because it is more neutral, with "academic inflation" merged into the term. Additionally, "credentialism" could be listed as a unique aspect of credential inflation. Kenton Bell (talk) 14:58, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

• Disgree - I further propose that Credentialism and Credential creep should not be merged here. They are actually not the same thing - though they are related. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TonyBrowne174 (talk • contribs) 14:56, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

• Disagree - should not be merged. Academic inflation strictly deals with how academic inflation affects employment, where credential inflation deaths with all forms of credentials from an employment perspective, however they should be linked via a link. Dgbug3 04:45, 16 May 2015 (edit) (undo) (thank)

Continued discussion. Please be clear on each of the four articles which one you would to merge, and which one not! Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:07, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

• Agree for Academic inflation, Credential inflation, Credentialism and Credential creep. "Credentialism" may be somewhat distinct or specific, but all those terms are so closely related that it may be clearer to merge them all. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:24, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Ah, and the title should be "Credentialism and degree inflation". Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:04, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Bold move & merge

I've been WP:BOLD, merged all the articles, and moved it to a new title. Now there's some cleaning-up to be done. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:02, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Too bold

Hm, that was a little bit too bold... could someone please delete Grade inflation, so this page can be moved back, including the merged info, and the talkpage and history retained at the correct page? There-after I shall split this article into "Grade inflation" proper, and "Credentialism and grade inflation", containing a section on "grade inflation." Thanks! And apologies for the extra work. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:32, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

@Joshua Jonathan:  Done by moving it back over the redirect, no need for deletion. --Nick⁠—⁠^Contact/_Contribs 06:20, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

@NickW557: thanks! I was a little bit too enthusiastic; but alas, one learns from being bold. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:41, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Credentialism and grade inflation

I've moved the merged info to Credentialism and grade inflation. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:49, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Bias, POV?

The article gives a strong impression of trying to prove that grade inflation is a fact. I'm not trying either to dispute or confirm that this is so, but calling for higher standards of writing, reporting rather than trying to prove a case. In particular, "grade inflation" seems to be used largely synonymously with "grade increases"—only half of the issue. One work cited as a study on grade inflation at Waterloo, saying that it defined grade inflation as "an increase in grades in one or more academic departments over time" missed the important fact that this was a presentation by a PhD-holder (rather than a peer-reviewed paper or equivalent), and that it said "no consensus on how Grade Inflation is defined ... I will define GI as an increase in grades in one or more academic departments over time". Another "study" is someone's Wordpress blog. I haven't removed any of this (I have quoted more accurately), but to be a credible article it must not try so strongly to prove a case. Pol098 (talk) 23:06, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

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External links modified

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External links modified

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Grade Point Average

"Louis Goldman, professor at Wichita State University, states that an increase of .404 points was reported from a survey in 134 colleges from 1965 to 1973. A second study in 180 colleges, showed a .432 GPA increase from 1960 to 1974, both indicating grade inflation."

I'm not American. I don't know what the GPA is, or how it's calibrated. What is ".404 points"? How many points are there altogether? Could we at least have a link to an explanation please? Hundovir (talk) 12:20, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

News article from NBC Bay Area

I wanted to bring this news article to the attention of anyone who likes to edit this wikipedia article.

It's about a high school student with very severe learning disabilities. Even though he doesn't understand the material, they gave him A's and B's in most of his classes.

The news article explains the very tragic results of this policy.

I'm also including a link to their news video of the same article, from their official YouTube channel.

This is a very, very sad news article, and I honestly think that it might be difficult for me to write an objective summary of it. But I was hoping that someone else here might want to give it a try.

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/san-jose-special-ed-student-diploma-debate/3724783/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-EdOojLprs

The Last Hungry Cat (talk) 23:38, 7 December 2024 (UTC)