Talk:Helicopter: Difference between revisions
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== Torque == |
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The article states "Most helicopters have a single main rotor, but torque created by its aerodynamic drag must be countered by an opposed torque." |
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This is factually incorrect. The torque is not created by aerodynamic drag, it's the result of an equal and opposite reaction force (Newton's Second Law). It happens in a vacuum. Spacecraft have reaction wheels for attitude control that work on this principle. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/146.90.76.143|146.90.76.143]] ([[User talk:146.90.76.143#top|talk]]) 17:29, 8 July 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:Sorry, I've thought about this some more. There are at least two main effects here. There is conservation of angular momentum purely in the rotation of the blades and the body of the helicopter plus there is the equal and opposite reaction to the continued "pushing" of the blades against the air. |
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:As the angular speed of the rotors changes (e.g. from rest to spinning) their angular momentum changes and the tail rotor has to exert an equal and opposite thrust to compensate. |
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:When the helicopter is in flight, as the article correctly states, there is aerodynamic drag on the blades (as with aeroplane wings) which the engine must push against. Since the blades rotate, this manifests as a torque, for which the tail rotor must compensate. [[Special:Contributions/87.115.6.239|87.115.6.239]] ([[User talk:87.115.6.239|talk]]) 09:57, 20 August 2023 (UTC) |
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== Experimental helicopter by Dr. Boothezaat in 1923 == |
== Experimental helicopter by Dr. Boothezaat in 1923 == |
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I'm reading through old Time Magazine issues. The March 1923 issue discusses Thomas Edison sending Dr. Boothezaat a congratulations for a test of a helicopter by remaining in the air for 2 min 45 sec at a height of 15 feet. Also see https://time.com/vault/issue/1923-03-03/page/23/. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Noloader|Noloader]] ([[User talk:Noloader#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Noloader|contribs]]) </span> |
I'm reading through old Time Magazine issues. The March 1923 issue discusses Thomas Edison sending Dr. Boothezaat a congratulations for a test of a helicopter by remaining in the air for 2 min 45 sec at a height of 15 feet. Also see https://time.com/vault/issue/1923-03-03/page/23/. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Noloader|Noloader]] ([[User talk:Noloader#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Noloader|contribs]]) </span> |
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== NASA Mars helicopter == |
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This paragraph needs updating to reflect the fact that the NASA Mars helicopter (Ingenuity) has successfully flown many missions on Mars. [[User:Pawprintoz|Pawprintoz]] ([[User talk:Pawprintoz|talk]]) 00:57, 9 January 2023 (UTC) |
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== The reasons for heli- and -copter == |
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The source is not available online and is in French. |
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And so I got curious: what ''are'' the reasons why the word isn't analysed helic- and -pter? |
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I'm assuming the source goes into some detail. Or, if you have another source discussing heli- and -copter? |
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[[User:CapnZapp|CapnZapp]] ([[User talk:CapnZapp|talk]]) 16:24, 18 September 2023 (UTC) |
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:Probably because that is how it's pronounced in English. We say "heli-copter", not "helic-opter", which is difficult for most native English speakers to say. [[User:BilCat|BilCat]] ([[User talk:BilCat|talk]]) 19:53, 18 September 2023 (UTC) |
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:: It appears you believe you have adequately answered the issue, but you did so by posting an unsourced speculation here on the talk page while removing context for the reader on the actual article page. If you are unsure what my issue is, feel free to ask. Otherwise I will assume you understand full well what made me start this talk section, [[User:BilCat]], and I invite you to actually fix it on the article page. Thanks [[User:CapnZapp|CapnZapp]] ([[User talk:CapnZapp|talk]]) 18:00, 19 September 2023 (UTC) |
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:::Look it up in an English dictionary, and see how the syllables are divided. But to be honest, your questions here are straying into [[WP:FORUM]] territory, and are really beyond the scope of a generalist encyclopedia. If you can find a reliable source that discusses why "helicopter" is not analyzed as "helic-opter", then you might be able to add it to the article, if it can be shown to relevant to the topic. [[User:BilCat|BilCat]] ([[User talk:BilCat|talk]]) 20:19, 19 September 2023 (UTC) |
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:::: You keep assuming I am asking for my sake. Please stop doing so. I am asking in order to highlight there is an opportunity to improve the page. Please stop explaining and answering to me here on talk - instead consider answering by improving our article. That's the end goal here. So please assume your fellow editors understand the purpose of this talk page rather than assuming they confuse it for WP:FORUM. Thanks [[User:CapnZapp|CapnZapp]] ([[User talk:CapnZapp|talk]]) 12:32, 20 September 2023 (UTC) |
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Our sentence is: |
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:''For various reasons,[specify] the word is often erroneously, from an etymological point of view, analysed by English speakers into heli- and copter,'' |
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which makes the following explicit and implicit claims: |
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# the word is analysed by English speakers into heli- and -copter |
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# presumably instead of helik- and -pter |
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# that this is done for "various" reasons |
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# and finally that this is etymologically erroneous |
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Now then, does anyone have access to our source (Cottez 1980) that can contribute? Our only other source, Free Dictionary, is of questionable quality and does not go into sufficient detail. Otherwise the entire sentence becomes dodgy. We should not make the third claim without going into any details of what those reasons are, it makes the entire sentence very vague. [[User:CapnZapp|CapnZapp]] ([[User talk:CapnZapp|talk]]) 12:34, 20 September 2023 (UTC) |
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:Next time, lead with that. [[User:BilCat|BilCat]] ([[User talk:BilCat|talk]]) 17:11, 20 September 2023 (UTC) |
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:: No, the problem here isn't what I led with. The problem here was your preconceived notions. The fix here is easy: change your ways and assume basic competence, please. [[User:CapnZapp|CapnZapp]] ([[User talk:CapnZapp|talk]]) 19:37, 20 September 2023 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 18 November 2023 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Helicopter|answered=yes}} |
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[[User:Dima Dov|Dima Dov]] ([[User talk:Dima Dov|talk]]) 17:58, 18 November 2023 (UTC) Igor Ivanovich Sikorsky ukrainian-born engineer, not russian-born. |
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: [[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done for now:''' please establish a [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] for this alteration '''[[Wikipedia:Edit requests|before]]''' using the {{Tlx|Edit semi-protected}} template.<!-- Template:ESp --> If I understand correctly, when he was born, Kiev was part of Russia. [[User:RudolfRed|RudolfRed]] ([[User talk:RudolfRed|talk]]) 20:02, 18 November 2023 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 5 February 2024 == |
== Semi-protected edit request on 5 February 2024 == |
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{{Edit semi-protected|Helicopter|answered=yes}} |
{{Edit semi-protected|Helicopter|answered=yes}} |
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The following phrase, whilst partially correct, is misleading: |
The following phrase, whilst partially correct, is misleading: |
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"[[File:Igor Sikorsky 300.jpg|thumb|left|Sikorsky's V-300, 1937]] |
"[[File:Igor Sikorsky 300.jpg|thumb|left|Sikorsky's V-300, 1937]] |
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Most helicopters have a single main rotor, but torque created by its [[aerodynamic drag]] must be countered by an opposed torque" |
Most helicopters have a single main rotor, but torque created by its [[aerodynamic drag]] must be countered by an opposed torque" |
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[Suggested Correction]: Aerodynamic drag affects the entire aircraft. Specifically, the aerodynamic drag experienced by the rotor blades is transmitted to the airframe by an equal and opposite 'reaction torque' via the rotor drive shaft and hence the engine mounts. Unlike an automobile engine, in which the. car body cannot rotate in response to this torque, a helicopter is free to rotate around the rotor drive shaft axis. A tail rotor, 'anti-torque rotor', is therefore necessary to establish a balancing (anti-)torque to prevent the airframe from spinning around the rotor axis. |
[Suggested Correction]: Aerodynamic drag affects the entire aircraft. Specifically, the aerodynamic drag experienced by the rotor blades is transmitted to the airframe by an equal and opposite 'reaction torque' via the rotor drive shaft and hence the engine mounts. Unlike an automobile engine, in which the. car body cannot rotate in response to this torque, a helicopter is free to rotate around the rotor drive shaft axis. A tail rotor, 'anti-torque rotor', is therefore necessary to establish a balancing (anti-)torque to prevent the airframe from spinning around the rotor axis. |
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:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' please provide [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable sources]] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> [[User:Lightoil|Lightoil]] ([[User talk:Lightoil|talk]]) 15:28, 12 June 2024 (UTC) |
:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' please provide [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable sources]] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> [[User:Lightoil|Lightoil]] ([[User talk:Lightoil|talk]]) 15:28, 12 June 2024 (UTC) |
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== New section on transmission design == |
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== Love hellycopter == |
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I noticed that the article does not contain any information on transmission design, which is an important topic for helicopters, so I drafted the following. Since helicopter designs vary so widely, I used words like "usually", "often", and "typically" so it would be clear that not all helicopters share a single design. Please reply with any comments or suggestions. (Note that there is already a subsection within "Saftey" section that discusses transmission safety, see [[Helicopter#Transmission]], but it does not discuss transmission design). [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 15:14, 8 December 2024 (UTC) |
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===Proposed new subsection "Transmission"=== |
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The [[transmission (mechanical device)|transmission]] is a mechanical system that transmits power from the engine(s) to the rotors. The transmission is a system of [[gears]], [[Bearing (mechanical)|bearing]]s, [[clutch]]es and [[Drive shaft|shaft]]s that performs several functions (1) Translates the alignment of the [[drive shaft]] to match the alignment of the rotor shafts; (2) Reduces the RPM of the drive shaft to the lower RPMs of the rotors; and (3) Enables the engine to engage or disengage from the rotors. For helicopters with tail rotors, the transmission [[drivetrain]] forks into two paths: one leading to the main rotor, and one leading to the tail rotor.<ref name="HRFch4">''Helicopter Flying Handbook'', FAA, 2024, Chaper 4 "Helicopter Components, Sections, and Systems" https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/helicopter_flying_handbook</ref>{{rp|4-10 to 4-13}}<ref>''Helicopter Instructor's Handbook'', FAA, 2014, ISBN 9781629141442, 1629141445</ref><ref>Bailey, Norman (2014) 'Helicopter Pilot's Manual'' Crowood, ISBN 9781847979230, 1847979238</ref> |
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The drive shafts of helicopter engines are typically not aligned with the rotor shafts, so the transmission must translate the alignment of the drive shaft to match the shafts of the rotors. Many engine drive shafts are aligned horizontally, yet the main rotor shaft ("mast") is usually vertical, and the tail rotor shaft is often perpendicular to the engine's drive shaft. The transmission contains a series of gears, usually [[bevel gear]]s, that translate the alignment of the drive shaft to the alignment of the rotor shafts.<ref name="HRFch4"/>{{rp|4-12}}<ref>''Bevel Gear Fundamentals and Applications'', Jan Klingelnberg, 2015, Springer Berlin Heidelberg, ISBN 9783662438930, 3662438933</ref> |
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The transmission also reduces the RPMs of the engine to the lower RPMs required by the rotors. The output drive shaft of the engine, before any gearing is applied, is typically between 3,000 and 50,000 RPM ([[Gas turbine|turbine engine]]s typically have higher RPM than [[piston engine]]s). The main rotor typically rotates between 300 to 600 RPM. The tail rotor, if present, usually rotates between 1,000 to 5,000 RPM. (The RPMs of a given model of helicopter are usually fixed {{em-dash}} the RPM ranges listed above represent a variety of helicopter models).<ref name=newman>{{cite book|first1=John|last1=Seddon|first2=Simon|last2=Newman|title=Basic Helicopter Aerodynamics|page=216|publisher=John Wiley and Sons|date=2011|isbn=978-1-119-99410-7}}</ref> The transmission contains a series of [[reduction gear]]s to reduce the engine RPM to the rotor RPMs. Several types of reduction gears may be used, including bevel gears, [[planetary gear]]s, [[helical gear]]s, and [[spur gear]]s. Most transmissions contain several reduction gears: the engine itself may contain reduction gears (often spur gears) between the engine's internal shaft and the output drive shaft; the main rotor may have a reduction gear at its base (typically a planetary gear); and there may be reduction gears at the tail rotor, and on the shaft leading to the tail rotor.<ref name="HRFch4"/>{{rp|4-11}} |
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The transmission often includes a [[clutch]], which permits the rotors to engage or disengage from the engine. A clutch is required so the engine can start up and gain speed before taking the load of the rotors. The clutch is also required in the case of engine failure: in that situation, the rotors must disengage from the engine so that the rotors can continue spinning and perform [[autorotation]]. Helicopter clutches are usually [[freewheel]] clutches relying on centrifugal forces ([[sprag clutch]]s are commonly used), but [[belt drive]] clutches are also used.<ref name="HRFch4"/>{{rp|4-12 to 4-13}} [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 15:14, 8 December 2024 (UTC) |
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: This seems very relevant and not an issue to me. You need to pipe a more specific link for transmission in the first sentence, since [[transmission|that]] is a disambiguation page and not that useful of a link. Regards [[User:Fnlayson|-Fnlayson]] ([[User talk:Fnlayson|talk]]) 03:52, 9 December 2024 (UTC) |
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I love hellycopters and I know they are fast [[Special:Contributions/138.217.184.226|138.217.184.226]] ([[User talk:138.217.184.226|talk]]) 04:49, 6 August 2024 (UTC) |
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::Thanks for the feedback, I made that change. [[User:Noleander|Noleander]] ([[User talk:Noleander|talk]]) 05:05, 9 December 2024 (UTC) |
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Experimental helicopter by Dr. Boothezaat in 1923
[edit]I'm reading through old Time Magazine issues. The March 1923 issue discusses Thomas Edison sending Dr. Boothezaat a congratulations for a test of a helicopter by remaining in the air for 2 min 45 sec at a height of 15 feet. Also see https://time.com/vault/issue/1923-03-03/page/23/. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Noloader (talk • contribs)
Semi-protected edit request on 5 February 2024
[edit]I want to edit something because it doesn’t seem right and giving wrong information about helicopters. You should have also all the answer to helicopters
}} 86.49.255.40 (talk) 12:32, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 12 June 2024
[edit]This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The following phrase, whilst partially correct, is misleading:
"
Most helicopters have a single main rotor, but torque created by its aerodynamic drag must be countered by an opposed torque"
[Suggested Correction]: Aerodynamic drag affects the entire aircraft. Specifically, the aerodynamic drag experienced by the rotor blades is transmitted to the airframe by an equal and opposite 'reaction torque' via the rotor drive shaft and hence the engine mounts. Unlike an automobile engine, in which the. car body cannot rotate in response to this torque, a helicopter is free to rotate around the rotor drive shaft axis. A tail rotor, 'anti-torque rotor', is therefore necessary to establish a balancing (anti-)torque to prevent the airframe from spinning around the rotor axis.
Suggest the text is amended accordingly. 86.26.142.91 (talk) 10:49, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Lightoil (talk) 15:28, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
New section on transmission design
[edit]I noticed that the article does not contain any information on transmission design, which is an important topic for helicopters, so I drafted the following. Since helicopter designs vary so widely, I used words like "usually", "often", and "typically" so it would be clear that not all helicopters share a single design. Please reply with any comments or suggestions. (Note that there is already a subsection within "Saftey" section that discusses transmission safety, see Helicopter#Transmission, but it does not discuss transmission design). Noleander (talk) 15:14, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
Proposed new subsection "Transmission"
[edit]The transmission is a mechanical system that transmits power from the engine(s) to the rotors. The transmission is a system of gears, bearings, clutches and shafts that performs several functions (1) Translates the alignment of the drive shaft to match the alignment of the rotor shafts; (2) Reduces the RPM of the drive shaft to the lower RPMs of the rotors; and (3) Enables the engine to engage or disengage from the rotors. For helicopters with tail rotors, the transmission drivetrain forks into two paths: one leading to the main rotor, and one leading to the tail rotor.[1]: 4-10 to 4-13 [2][3]
The drive shafts of helicopter engines are typically not aligned with the rotor shafts, so the transmission must translate the alignment of the drive shaft to match the shafts of the rotors. Many engine drive shafts are aligned horizontally, yet the main rotor shaft ("mast") is usually vertical, and the tail rotor shaft is often perpendicular to the engine's drive shaft. The transmission contains a series of gears, usually bevel gears, that translate the alignment of the drive shaft to the alignment of the rotor shafts.[1]: 4–12 [4]
The transmission also reduces the RPMs of the engine to the lower RPMs required by the rotors. The output drive shaft of the engine, before any gearing is applied, is typically between 3,000 and 50,000 RPM (turbine engines typically have higher RPM than piston engines). The main rotor typically rotates between 300 to 600 RPM. The tail rotor, if present, usually rotates between 1,000 to 5,000 RPM. (The RPMs of a given model of helicopter are usually fixed — the RPM ranges listed above represent a variety of helicopter models).[5] The transmission contains a series of reduction gears to reduce the engine RPM to the rotor RPMs. Several types of reduction gears may be used, including bevel gears, planetary gears, helical gears, and spur gears. Most transmissions contain several reduction gears: the engine itself may contain reduction gears (often spur gears) between the engine's internal shaft and the output drive shaft; the main rotor may have a reduction gear at its base (typically a planetary gear); and there may be reduction gears at the tail rotor, and on the shaft leading to the tail rotor.[1]: 4–11
The transmission often includes a clutch, which permits the rotors to engage or disengage from the engine. A clutch is required so the engine can start up and gain speed before taking the load of the rotors. The clutch is also required in the case of engine failure: in that situation, the rotors must disengage from the engine so that the rotors can continue spinning and perform autorotation. Helicopter clutches are usually freewheel clutches relying on centrifugal forces (sprag clutchs are commonly used), but belt drive clutches are also used.[1]: 4-12 to 4-13 Noleander (talk) 15:14, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- This seems very relevant and not an issue to me. You need to pipe a more specific link for transmission in the first sentence, since that is a disambiguation page and not that useful of a link. Regards -Fnlayson (talk) 03:52, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the feedback, I made that change. Noleander (talk) 05:05, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
- ^ a b c d Helicopter Flying Handbook, FAA, 2024, Chaper 4 "Helicopter Components, Sections, and Systems" https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/helicopter_flying_handbook
- ^ Helicopter Instructor's Handbook, FAA, 2014, ISBN 9781629141442, 1629141445
- ^ Bailey, Norman (2014) 'Helicopter Pilot's Manual Crowood, ISBN 9781847979230, 1847979238
- ^ Bevel Gear Fundamentals and Applications, Jan Klingelnberg, 2015, Springer Berlin Heidelberg, ISBN 9783662438930, 3662438933
- ^ Seddon, John; Newman, Simon (2011). Basic Helicopter Aerodynamics. John Wiley and Sons. p. 216. ISBN 978-1-119-99410-7.
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