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One-sided intro

The intro mentions Armenian conflictuous acts, but nothing on the Azerbaijani side. It would be more neutral to describe the (purported) reasons for those Armenian acts, labelling disputed "facts" as such where needed. That would at least remove the current impression of repeated sudden unprovoked aggression from one side against a purely victim peaceful other side. 178.237.74.251 (talk) 10:49, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 September 2023

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change the misspelling of “betweeen” to “between” in the first paragraph 2601:19C:4380:52B0:48FF:8D02:6906:976A (talk) 22:59, 27 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Done ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 02:22, 28 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

whoops, that seems like my bad.

Sorry! Remsense (talk) 03:41, 28 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Disputed status of Nagorno-Karabakh

I want to raise a question on the status of the territory. Why is Nagorno-Karabakh still considered a disputed territory?

1. The UN recognizes it as a sovereign part of Azerbaijan
2. Armenia officially recognizes it as a sovereign part of Azerbaijan
3. The separatist government of the Republic of Artsakh dissolved itself by the official decree
4. There is no de-facto presence of the separatist government in the region and the central government of Azerbaijan controls the entire territory since the end of September 2023.

Isn't it the right time to adjust the wording of the article accordingly? KHE'O (talk) 20:56, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The government of the RoA has not technically dissolved itself yet, it declared that it would dissolve by Jan 1 2024. It's not known yet exactly how many Armenians are left in NK (last credible report stated 50-1,000 but that's probably different now). It may be time to update the status though, I agree. Sawyer-mcdonell (talk) 21:03, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Point of order but do we know that Armenia recognizes it as part of Azerbaijan? They have no formal relations, so absent an affirmative statement, we can't assume they recognize anything about Azerbaijan. --Golbez (talk) 21:24, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is also true. They've never formally recognized the Artsakh government, but de facto they have for a long time (given how much military aid they've provided, the blurring of lines between governments via politicians holding office in both governments, etc). I think we need to wait for more verified information before definitively changing the status to avoid WP:OR. Sawyer-mcdonell (talk) 21:28, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, not recognizing Artsakh over the area is not the same as recognizing Azerbaijan over the area. --Golbez (talk) 22:21, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable sources still describe it as disputed. TagaworShah (talk) 21:35, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable sources can be out of date, and we don't have to parrot them when that can be demonstrated. --Golbez (talk) 22:22, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, the prime minister of Armenia officially recognized Azerbaijan's sovereignty over 86,600 sq km of territory which includes Nagorno-Karabakh in the Prague summit in October 2022^[1] and the Brussels summit in May 2023^[2]. He even later at his speech at the Armenian parliament explicitly stated that the recognized territory of Azerbaijan includes Nagorno-Karabakh. ^[3]^[4]^[5]KHE'O (talk) 20:35, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Since it has been more than three weeks from the last comment in this discussion, should we request a close? KHE'O (talk) 16:19, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think Nagorno-Karabakh could be considered a disputed territory anymore. If it is disputed, then who disputes it? Armenia officially recognizes Karabakh as part of Azerbaijan, and NKR has been dissolved. And previously, no country in the world has ever recognized NK as being independent from Azerbaijan, and 4 UNSC resolutions refer to NK as Azerbaijan's region. So I support removing the word "disputed" from this and other articles. Grandmaster 11:10, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes and Armenia's recognition of Azerbaijani sovereignity is a major indicator. If there are further objections, we can ask for further opinion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject History or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history, but currently I don't think it's necessary. Brandmeister^talk 21:28, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 October 2023

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Turn the sub-section "Azerbaijani offensive (2023)" which has "History" as the section inside it into a sub-sub-section of "History" and a sub-section of "Blockade (2022–present)" Equalwidth (talk) 07:11, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 01:44, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Now I have EC rights so I can make the change I wanted to make. Equal width (C) 07:49, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 {{Skip to talk}}
-{{Talk header|search=yes|archive_age=1|archive_units=month|archive_bot=Lowercase sigmabot III}}
+{{Talk header|search=yes}}
-{{Vital article|level=4|topic=Geography|class=B}}
 {{Controversial}}
 {{Calm}}
 {{Old peer review|archive=1}}
-{{WikiProject banner shell|1=
+{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|vital=yes|1=
-{{WikiProject Armenia |class=B |importance=High}}
+{{WikiProject Armenia|importance=High}}
-{{WikiProject Artsakh|class=B|importance=top}}
+{{WikiProject Artsakh|importance=top}}
-{{WikiProject Azerbaijan|class=B|importance=top}}
+{{WikiProject Azerbaijan|importance=top}}
-{{WikiProject Caucasia|class=B|importance=mid}}
+{{WikiProject Caucasia|importance=mid}}
-{{WikiProject Limited recognition|class=B|b1=yes|b2=yes|b3=yes|b4=yes|b5=yes|importance=mid}}
+{{WikiProject Limited recognition|importance=mid}}
-{{WikiProject Geography|class=b|importance=high}}
+{{WikiProject Geography|importance=high}}
 }}
 {{Consensus|<big>'''WARNING: ACTIVE ARBITRATION REMEDIES'''</big><p> The article [[Nagorno-Karabakh]] is currently subject to active arbitration remedies, as laid out during '''[[WP:ARBAA2|a 2007 Arbitration case]]'''. Per a 2012 complaint at [[WP:AE]] about apparent sock editing, [[Nagorno-Karabakh]] is under a '''[[WP:1RR|single reversion]] restriction'''. This is a modified 1RR restriction to limit the power of newly-created accounts to prevail in disputes, while still leaving the article open to editing:
@@ Line 29: / Line 28: @@
 }}
-== John Senacherib ==
+== One-sided intro ==
+The intro mentions Armenian conflictuous acts, but nothing on the Azerbaijani side.  It would be more neutral to describe the (purported) reasons for those Armenian acts, labelling disputed "facts" as such where needed.  That would at least remove the current impression of repeated sudden unprovoked aggression from one side against a purely victim peaceful other side. [[Special:Contributions/178.237.74.251|178.237.74.251]] ([[User talk:178.237.74.251|talk]]) 10:49, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
-Isn't this Senekerim-Hovhannes Artsruni, who has his own page?  If so, please do repair the link. [[Special:Contributions/2001:1C04:4706:EC00:E0BA:D74D:F7D8:D563|2001:1C04:4706:EC00:E0BA:D74D:F7D8:D563]] ([[User talk:2001:1C04:4706:EC00:E0BA:D74D:F7D8:D563|talk]]) 22:39, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
+== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 September 2023 ==
+{{Edit extended-protected|Nagorno-Karabakh|answered=yes}}
-== the lede should mention ethnicity ==
+Change the misspelling of “betweeen” to “between” in the first paragraph [[Special:Contributions/2601:19C:4380:52B0:48FF:8D02:6906:976A|2601:19C:4380:52B0:48FF:8D02:6906:976A]] ([[User talk:2601:19C:4380:52B0:48FF:8D02:6906:976A|talk]]) 22:59, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
+:{{done}}<!-- Template:EEp --> [[User:ARandomName123|ARandomName123]] ([[User talk:ARandomName123|talk]])<sup><span style="color:Green"><small>Ping me!</small></span></sup>  02:22, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
+:whoops, that seems like my bad. {{sorry}} [[User:Remsense|Remsense]] ([[User talk:Remsense|talk]]) 03:41, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
+== Disputed status of Nagorno-Karabakh ==
-The lede says nothing about "ethnic Armenians live here along with some ethnic Azeris", the reader is left wondering "why is Armenia involved with the Artsakhians?" [[Special:Contributions/2603:8001:D300:A631:0:0:0:1D29|2603:8001:D300:A631:0:0:0:1D29]] ([[User talk:2603:8001:D300:A631:0:0:0:1D29|talk]]) 05:35, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
+I want to raise a question on the status of the territory. Why is Nagorno-Karabakh still considered a disputed territory?
-:Yeah, you're right; it says that Armenia and Azerbaijan have been negotiating over it but doesn't explain why Armenia cares. Could definitely be improved. --[[User:Golbez|Golbez]] ([[User talk:Golbez|talk]]) 16:55, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
+. The UN recognizes it as a sovereign part of Azerbaijan<br>
-== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 September 2022 ==
+. Armenia officially recognizes it as a sovereign part of Azerbaijan<br>
+. The separatist government of the Republic of Artsakh dissolved itself by the official decree<br>
+. There is no de-facto presence of the separatist government in the region and the central government of Azerbaijan controls the entire territory since the end of September 2023.
+Isn't it the right time to adjust the wording of the article accordingly? [[User:Kheo17|KHE&#39;O]] ([[User talk:Kheo17|talk]]) 20:56, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
-{{edit extended-protected|Nagorno-Karabakh|answered=yes}}
-Hereby I want to ask a permission to do a small edit, which I like to add one citation for the history section, specifically regarding the decision to exclude as many as Azerbaijani settlement from NKAO to ensure its Armenian majority.
+:The government of the RoA has not technically dissolved itself yet, it declared that it would dissolve by Jan 1 2024. It's not known yet exactly how many Armenians are left in NK (last credible report stated 50-1,000 but that's probably different now). It may be time to update the status though, I agree. [[User:Sawyer-mcdonell|Sawyer-mcdonell]] ([[User talk:Sawyer-mcdonell|talk]]) 21:03, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
-If the permission is given, I will change this {{citation-needed}} to {{cite book |last=Potier |first=Tim |author-link= |date=2001 |title=Conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh, Abkhazia and South Ossetia, A Legal Appraisal |url= |location=The Hague, Netherlands |publisher=Kluwer Law International |page=5 |isbn=9041114777}}
+:Point of order but do we know that Armenia recognizes it as part of Azerbaijan? They have no formal relations, so absent an affirmative statement, we can't assume they recognize anything about Azerbaijan. --[[User:Golbez|Golbez]] ([[User talk:Golbez|talk]]) 21:24, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
-[[User:Mfikriansori|Mfikriansori]] ([[User talk:Mfikriansori|talk]]) 18:49, 19 September 2022 (UTC) [[User:Mfikriansori|Mfikriansori]] ([[User talk:Mfikriansori|talk]]) 18:49, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
+::This is also true. They've never formally recognized the Artsakh government, but ''de facto'' they have for a long time (given how much military aid they've provided, the blurring of lines between governments via politicians holding office in both governments, etc). I think we need to wait for more ''verified'' information before definitively changing the status to avoid [[WP:OR]]. [[User:Sawyer-mcdonell|Sawyer-mcdonell]] ([[User talk:Sawyer-mcdonell|talk]]) 21:28, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
-:{{done}} <small>I am [[WP:AGF|assuming good faith]] that the source says what Mfikriansori says it does.</small> &#8211;<span style="font-family:CG Times, times">[[User:MJL|<span style="color:black">MJL</span>]]&thinsp;[[User talk:MJL|‐'''Talk'''‐]]<sup>[[User:MJL/P|☖]]</sup></span> 18:54, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
+:::Yeah, not recognizing Artsakh over the area is not the same as recognizing Azerbaijan over the area. --[[User:Golbez|Golbez]] ([[User talk:Golbez|talk]]) 22:21, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
+:Reliable sources still describe it as disputed. [[User:TagaworShah|<b><span style="color: darkred;">Tagawor</span></b><b><span style="color:#B2910A;">Shah</span></b>]] [[User talk:TagaworShah|(talk)]] 21:35, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
+::Reliable sources can be out of date, and we don't have to parrot them when that can be demonstrated. --[[User:Golbez|Golbez]] ([[User talk:Golbez|talk]]) 22:22, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
+:::: In fact, the prime minister of Armenia officially recognized Azerbaijan's sovereignty over 86,600 sq km of territory which includes Nagorno-Karabakh in the Prague summit in October 2022<ref>[https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2022/10/07/statement-following-quadrilateral-meeting-between-president-aliyev-prime-minister-pashinyan-president-macron-and-president-michel-6-october-2022/]</ref> and the Brussels summit in May 2023<ref>[https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023/05/14/press-remarks-by-president-charles-michel-following-the-trilateral-meeting-with-president-aliyev-of-azerbaijan-and-prime-minister-pashinyan-of-armenia/]</ref>. He even later at his speech at the Armenian parliament explicitly stated that the recognized territory of Azerbaijan includes Nagorno-Karabakh. <ref>[https://www.intellinews.com/pashinyan-recognises-nagorno-karabakh-as-part-of-azerbaijan-279412/]</ref><ref>[https://mirrorspectator.com/2023/05/22/pashinyan-confirms-readiness-to-accept-azeri-control-of-karabakh-enclave-leadership-reacts-furiously/]</ref><ref>[https://armenpress.am/eng/news/1111461.html#:~:text=Pashinyan%20noted%20that%20all%20administrations,km2%20territorial%20integrity%20of%20Armenia]</ref>[[User:Kheo17|KHE&#39;O]] ([[User talk:Kheo17|talk]]) 20:35, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
+:::: Since it has been more than three weeks from the last comment in this discussion, should we request a close? [[User:Kheo17|KHE&#39;O]] ([[User talk:Kheo17|talk]]) 16:19, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
+::::: I don't think Nagorno-Karabakh could be considered a disputed territory anymore. If it is disputed, then who disputes it? Armenia officially recognizes Karabakh as part of Azerbaijan, and NKR has been dissolved. And previously, no country in the world has ever recognized NK as being independent from Azerbaijan, and 4 UNSC resolutions refer to NK as Azerbaijan's region. So I support removing the word "disputed" from this and other articles. [[User:Grandmaster|<span style="font-family:Arial;color:#464646">'''''Grand'''''</span>]][[User talk:Grandmaster|<span style="font-family:Arial;color:#808080">'''''master'''''</span>]] 11:10, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
-== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 August 2023 ==
+::::::Yes and Armenia's recognition of Azerbaijani sovereignity is a major indicator. If there are further objections, we can ask for further opinion at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject History]] or [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history]], but currently I don't think it's necessary. [[User:Brandmeister|Brandmeister]]<sup>[[User talk:Brandmeister|talk]]</sup>   21:28, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
-{{edit extended-protected|Nagorno-Karabakh|}}
-Please change the end of the "History" section to ''add'' the following section, taken from the extended-confirmed-protected Republic of Artsakh article:
+{{reflist-talk}}
-=== 2022–2023 blockade ===
-{{Main articles|Blockade of the Republic of Artsakh (2022–present)}}
+== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 October 2023 ==
-In December 2022, Azerbaijanis claiming to be environmental activists blocked the [[Lachin corridor]], the sole road connecting Nagorno-Karabakh to Armenia through Azerbaijani territory.<ref name="BBC2">{{Cite news |title=Азербайджанские "активисты" блокируют дорогу из Карабаха в Армению. Одновременно в Карабахе пропал газ |language=ru |trans-title=Azerbaijani "activists" are blocking the road from Karabakh to Armenia. At the same time, gas disappeared in Karabakh |work=BBC News Русская Служба |url=https://www.bbc.com/russian/news-63975080}}</ref> On 23 April 2023, Azerbaijan installed a [[border checkpoint]] on the part of the corridor bordering Armenia.<ref name=":129">{{Cite web |last=Loe |first=Catherine |date=2023-04-27 |title=Azerbaijan sets up checkpoints on the Lachin corridor |url=https://www.eiu.com/n/azerbaijan-sets-up-checkpoints-on-the-lachin-corridor/ |access-date=2023-05-03 |website=Economist Intelligence Unit |language=en-GB |quote=The move [installation of a checkpoint] has increased the blockade of Nagorny Karabakh...A checkpoint on the border would give Azerbaijan the ability to stop any cars travelling between Armenia and Nagorny Karabakh.}}</ref> Limited traffic was conducted by [[Peacekeeping operations in Nagorno-Karabakh|Russian peacekeepers]] and the [[International Committee of the Red Cross]] thereafter to transport patients in need of medical care and provide humanitarian supplies.<ref name="BlackoutsRationing">{{cite news |last=Shahverdyan |first=Lilit |date=12 January 2023 |title=Blackouts and food rationing as Karabakh blockade enters second month |language=en |work=Eurasianet |url=https://eurasianet.org/blackouts-and-food-rationing-as-karabakh-blockade-enters-second-month |access-date=17 January 2023 |quote=But the supplies are meager compared to the pre-blockade delivery of 12,000 tons of goods monthly, and barely meet the needs of the local population, which Armenian sources estimate at around 120,000.}}</ref><ref name=":22">{{cite news |date=17 January 2023 |title=Nagorno-Karabakh reports gas cut for second time since start of blockade |work=OC Media |url=https://oc-media.org/nagorno-karabakh-reports-gas-cut-for-second-time-since-start-of-blockade/ |access-date=18 January 2023}}</ref> However, after a shootout near the checkpoint on 15 June 2023, Azerbaijan blocked all traffic in the corridor, including the passage of food, fuel, and medicine from the Red Cross and the Russian peacekeepers.<ref name=":175">{{Cite web |date=2023-06-20 |title=Nagorno-Karabakh again faces shortages as Azerbaijan closes Lachin Corridor |url=https://oc-media.org/nagorno-karabakh-again-faces-shortages-as-azerbaijan-closes-lachin-corridor/ |access-date=2023-07-14 |website=OC Media |language=en-US}}</ref><ref name=":176">{{Cite web |title=Food shortages and fear as peacekeepers refused entry to Nagorno-Karabakh |url=https://oc-media.org/features/food-shortages-and-fear-as-peacekeepers-refused-entry-to-nagorno-karabakh/ |access-date=2023-07-14 |website=OC Media |language=en-US}}</ref><ref name=":178">{{Cite web |date=2023-07-31 |title=Karabakh blockade reaches critical point as food supplies run low |url=https://www.intellinews.com/karabakh-blockade-reaches-critical-point-as-food-supplies-run-low-286173/ |access-date=2023-08-01 |website=www.intellinews.com |language=en}}</ref> The blockade has led to what has been described as a "[[humanitarian crisis]]" for the population in Nagorno-Karabakh.<ref name=":62">{{Cite web |last=Gavin |first=Gabriel |date=Dec 19, 2022 |title=Supplies begin to run low as Nagorno-Karabakh blockade continues |url=https://eurasianet.org/supplies-begin-to-run-low-as-nagorno-karabakh-blockade-continues |access-date=2022-12-22 |website=eurasianet.org |language=en}}</ref><ref name=":310">{{Cite web |last=Kitachayev |first=Bashir |date=16 December 2022 |title=Azerbaijani roadblock cuts tens of thousands off from food, fuel and medicine |url=https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/nagorno-karabakh-azerbaijan-armenia-roadblock/ |access-date=21 December 2022 |website=[[openDemocracy]]}}</ref><ref name=":97">{{Cite web |date=2023-05-22 |title=New Troubles in Nagorno-Karabakh: Understanding the Lachin Corridor Crisis |url=https://www.crisisgroup.org/europe-central-asia/caucasus/nagorno-karabakh-conflict/new-troubles-nagorno-karabakh-understanding-lachin-corridor-crisis |access-date=2023-05-23 |website=www.crisisgroup.org |language=en |quote=While travellers were already few due to the blockade, the ICRC reports that its ability to get people across has been curtailed [since the installation of the checkpoint], leaving only the Russian peacekeepers to facilitate trips to Armenia for medical care.}}</ref><ref name=":134">{{Cite web |date=2023-05-31 |title=June Alerts and May Trends 2023 |url=https://www.crisisgroup.org/crisiswatch/june-alerts-and-may-trends-2023 |access-date=2023-06-19 |website=www.crisisgroup.org |language=en |quote=Checkpoint on Lachin corridor faced fierce opposition amid humanitarian crisis....Azerbaijani military consolidated [the] blockade, however, leading to even fewer crossings and reduced transportation of goods.}}</ref> Starting on August 21, Azerbaijan relaxed the blockade, permitting several dozen residents of Nagorno-Karabakh to cross the checkpoint.<ref>{{Cite web |date=22 August 2023 |title=Signs of possible easing of Karabakh blockade |url=https://eurasianet.org/signs-of-possible-easing-of-karabakh-blockade |access-date=29 August 2023 |website=[[Eurasianet]]}}</ref> [[User:JM2023|JM2023]] ([[User talk:JM2023|talk]]) 16:33, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
+{{edit extended-protected|Nagorno-Karabakh|answered=yes}}
+Turn the sub-section "Azerbaijani offensive (2023)" which has "History" as the section inside it into a sub-sub-section of "History" and a sub-section of "Blockade (2022–present)" [[User:Equalwidth|Equalwidth]] ([[User talk:Equalwidth|talk]]) 07:11, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
+: [[File:Red question icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a [[WP:EDITXY|"change X to Y" format]] and provide a [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable source]] if appropriate.<!-- Template:EP --> [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|<sub style="color:#800000">it has begun...</sub>]] 01:44, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
+::Now I have EC rights so I can make the change I wanted to make. [[User:Equalwidth|Equal]][[User talk:Equalwidth|width]] ([[Special:Contributions/Equalwidth|C]]) 07:49, 3 December 2023 (UTC)