Talk:Montgomery Academy (Alabama): Difference between revisions

Browse history interactively

← Previous edit

Content deleted Content added

VisualWikitext

Inline

Latest revision as of 10:52, 11 December 2024

Alabama

This article is part of WikiProject Alabama, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Alabama on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page to join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.AlabamaWikipedia:WikiProject AlabamaTemplate:WikiProject AlabamaAlabama

Schools Low‑importance

	Schools portal This article is related to WikiProject Schools, a collaborative effort to write quality articles about schools around the world. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page.SchoolsWikipedia:WikiProject SchoolsTemplate:WikiProject Schoolsschool
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Discrimination Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Discrimination, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Discrimination on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DiscriminationWikipedia:WikiProject DiscriminationTemplate:WikiProject DiscriminationDiscrimination
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.

The following Wikipedia contributor may be personally or professionally connected to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include conflict of interest, autobiography, and neutral point of view.

209.12.83.254 (talk · contribs) / Montgomery Academy Montgomery Academy

Archives

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
+{{WikiProject banner shell|class=C|1=
-{{Talk header}}
+{{WikiProject Alabama}}
-{{WikiProjectBanners|banner collapsed=no|1=
-{{WikiProject Alabama|class=Start}}
+{{WikiProject Schools|importance=Low|needs-infobox=no}}
-{{WikiProject Schools|class=Start|importance=|needs-infobox=no}}
+{{WikiProject Discrimination|importance=Low}}
-{{WikiProject Discrimination|class=Start|importance=Low}}
 }}
-{{Image requested|in=Montgomery County, Alabama|of=3240 Vaughn Road, Montgomery, AL 36106}}
 {{Connected contributor|209.12.83.254|Montgomery Academy}}
+{{Archives}}
-{{User:MiszaBot/config
-|minthreadsleft = 0
-|minthreadstoarchive = 1
-|algo = old(90d)
-|archive = Talk:Montgomery Academy/Archives/%(year)d/%(monthname)s
-}}
-{{Auto archiving notice|bot=MiszaBot I|age=90}}
-{{Archive box|search=yes|
-{{nowrap|'''2006''': {{Archives by months|2006}}}}
-{{nowrap|'''2007''': {{Archives by months|2007}}}}
-{{nowrap|'''2008''': {{Archives by months|2008}}}}
-{{nowrap|'''2009''': {{Archives by months|2009}}}}
-{{nowrap|'''2010''': {{Archives by months|2010}}}}
-{{nowrap|'''2011''': {{Archives by months|2011}}}}
-{{nowrap|'''2012''': {{Archives by months|2012}}}}
-{{nowrap|'''2013''': {{Archives by months|2013}}}}
-}}
-__TOC__
-==Yale Article Revisited==
-The text SouthernNights states is from the Yale article is actually from the Terjen text.   The Yale article states, citing Terjen in unrelated statements, "The true 'segregation academy' is a product of the post-''[[Green_v._County_School_Board_of_New_Kent_County|Green]]''era."  Well, that's anachronistic to MA's founding...  IOW: http://i.imgur.com/jKL1MHc.gif.  MA was founded pre-Green.  According to the Yale article, MA was guilty of being segregated because it was emulating an elite prep school which had prohibitive tuition charges.
-It arguably was founded within the [[Event_horizon|event horizon]] of desegregation.  There's really no denying that.  But, it was founded 5 years after Brown and 9 years before busing.
-The way Thornton frames it, the founders' motivation was to ensure their children's education continued and the Klan didn't harm them.  If we are going to say MA was founded with segregation on the minds of the founders, it would be a steep hill to climb.
-Call it theory if you want... Any way you chip at it, there has to be a litmus test.  Terjen's threshold is any school founded after Brown that is not diverse.  YLJ's threshold is a school that is the product of the [post-busing] era.  Other sources state a seg school is a school specifically founded to allow people to not participate in integrated education.
-Tell me what a seg school is, and we can get deeper into this.  The sources we have here... even the ones that cite one another... contradict themselves.  Is the crime "being white and associating with whites?"  If so, I know a lot of those people.  All of whom would emphatically reject the label "segregationist."
-Does that make sense? I'm not trying to be obtuse here.--[[User:Verdad|Verdad]] ([[User talk:Verdad|talk]]) 04:58, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
-:It makes perfect sense, although I don't see what SouthernNights has to do with the Yale article; did he refer to it?  However, you have to see that the YLJ article explicitly calls MA a seg academy.  Explicitly.  Without hedges.  Your theories on what Thornton means but doesn't say don't carry a lot of weight in the face of that.  I don't know how to define "seg academy" exhaustively, but clearly, on Wikipedia, any school that one or more reliable sources calls a seg academy can (a) be called a seg academy in Wikipedia's voice if there are no dissenting independent reliable sources or (b) have attributed views stating that it is a seg academy balanced by dissenting views stating that it is not a seg academy in proportion to their prevalence in the literature.  This is basic [[WP:NPOV]].  Furthermore, even if we accept your theory that Thornton says that MA was not founded to perpetuate segregation, even you admit that it was founded to allow people not to participate in integrated education although, you claim, this was not for racist reasons.&mdash; [[User:Alf.laylah.wa.laylah|alf laylah wa laylah]] ([[User_talk:Alf.laylah.wa.laylah|talk]]) 15:04, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
-::SouthernNights refers to the article, yes...  He "quotes it" for us.  Here's the problem...  He's not quoting the article. The article doesn't mention a single school by name.  The article does say, "a true segregation academy is a product of the post-Green" era.  That quote follows a section about pre-desegregation elite prep schools as "segregated private schools," distinguishable from seg academies.  Do we consider desegregation Brown or Green?  The author of the Yale article seems to think it's 1968...--[[User:Verdad|Verdad]] ([[User talk:Verdad|talk]]) 20:13, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
-::Also, I claim Thornton states MA was founded to avoid school closure and clan violence, not integration- and that MA asserts it always had open admissions. --[[User:Verdad|Verdad]] ([[User talk:Verdad|talk]]) 00:19, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
-:::I'm totally confused.  Which Yale article are you talking about that "doesn't mention a single school by name" and that {{u|SouthernNights}} quotes?  Surely not the one cited here from the Yale Law Journal, which mentions MA by name, as quoted by me, when it is explicitly calling MA a segregation academy.  You said that Thornton implies that the klan threatened to do violence to anyone who practiced integration and that therefore MA was segregated to avoid violence by avoiding integration.  Like this: "Integrated school implies violence.  MA wants no violence.  Therefore MA wants segregated school."  That's part of your argument.&mdash; [[User:Alf.laylah.wa.laylah|alf laylah wa laylah]] ([[User_talk:Alf.laylah.wa.laylah|talk]]) 01:03, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
-::::The june 1973 article "Segregation Academies and State Action."   I'm looking at it right here.  Nothing about a single school.  The citations mention several schools.  The citation we are talking about- the one I'm calling the "SouthernNight quote" (though {{u|Alabamaboy}} probably was the one that referenced it.  Then SouthernNights "blanked" Alabamaboy and made everything so damned convoluted.) ...that quote is from the Terjen text.--[[User:Verdad|Verdad]] ([[User talk:Verdad|talk]]) 01:40, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
-::::2nd part of your question...  "Avoid violence by avoiding integration?"  No.  Avoid violence by limiting to children of white parentage.  That can be accomplished several ways other than having a racially exclusive policy.   Why are we even getting into this question?  Is someone who aids a criminal at gunpoint a collaborator to the crime?  I thought this would be an obvious point to make.--[[User:Verdad|Verdad]] ([[User talk:Verdad|talk]]) 01:53, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
-:::::You're looking at "Segregation Academies and State Action" and you don't see that it explicitly and without quotes (scare or otherwise) calls MA a seg academy?  Is that what you're asserting?  If so, it's time for you to read [[WP:CIR]]. As for who referenced it first, why does it matter?  I referenced it recently and supported it with a quote, not a summary, that makes it clear that the article explicitly calls MA a seg academy.  The paragraph beginning "2nd part" makes absolutely no sense to me.&mdash; [[User:Alf.laylah.wa.laylah|alf laylah wa laylah]] ([[User_talk:Alf.laylah.wa.laylah|talk]]) 03:46, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
-{{od}}
-Nope.  I'm looking at it right here.  And it does not say what you are saying it says.
-It includes information in the footnotes that Katherine Terjen did a report in 1971 for the SRC, which made it into the congressional record as part of the Mondale Hearings- which are fascinating.  It also cites ''Gilmore v City of Montgomery''- which is essentially the information as ''Allen v Wright'' for our purposes.
-In the body of the text, the authors make no mention of any school.  What's even more interesting is that they assert schools outside of the public school system were "segregated" prior to 1968 but that "true 'segregation academi[es]'"  did not exist until after ''Green v Kent County''.  Are you reading the same article as I am (pp 1436-1461)?--[[User:Verdad|Verdad]] ([[User talk:Verdad|talk]]) 09:26, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
-:First, it doesn't matter whether a source speaks in the body of the text or in a footnote.  That's a distinction that you just made up.  Second, I'm not a mind reader.  What do they say that makes you think that {{xt|they assert schools outside of the public school system were "segregated" prior to 1968 but that "true 'segregation academi[es]'"  did not exist until after ''Green v Kent County''.}}?  I see one or two sentences in the article which, given your past history, you might have twisted into that statement, but, certainly, give a quote from the article that supports that statement.  Also, remember, according to you sentences which use "scare quotes" around the phrase "segregation academy" have less force than those that don't.  Finally, it explicitly says that MA is a seg academy.  Why do you keep ignoring that fact?&mdash; [[User:Alf.laylah.wa.laylah|alf laylah wa laylah]] ([[User_talk:Alf.laylah.wa.laylah|talk]]) 15:18, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
-::If a footnote just quotes another document, we call that a citation, right?--[[User:Verdad|Verdad]] ([[User talk:Verdad|talk]]) 23:59, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
-:::So you won't answer?&mdash; [[User:Alf.laylah.wa.laylah|alf laylah wa laylah]] ([[User_talk:Alf.laylah.wa.laylah|talk]]) 02:59, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
-::::When a footnote simply quotes another document, we call that a citation. [[User:Verdad|Verdad]] ([[User talk:Verdad|talk]]) 11:40, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
-:::::If you have something concrete to say about the content of this particular Wikipedia article I wish you'd say it.&mdash; [[User:Alf.laylah.wa.laylah|alf laylah wa laylah]] ([[User_talk:Alf.laylah.wa.laylah|talk]]) 13:37, 23 May 2014 (UTC)