Talk:Boot camp (correctional): Difference between revisions

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Comment

A couple of points. Althought they share some features, isn't there a difference between 'tough love' wilderness camps for teenagers who are sent there by parents, and penal institutions to which offenders are sent by the state?

Also you claim the boot camp regime is about" promotion of fear, degradation, humiliation, discipline, respect for authority, absolute strictness, drill, physical conditioning and severe punishment in order to break the will of a person and to make him or her totally submissive" Doesn't such a sweeping statment (which may well be true) need backing up with examples?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Cute 1 4 u (talk • contribs)

oops!

i just did a booboo, i'm sorry. somebody please revert this article to the last version. i had no intention changing it to the very first version i wrote last year. i only wanted to look it up and add my name, which i hadn't done, because i wasn't enlisted. sorry, sorry.Sundar1 20:09, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So done. For future reference, you can self-revert by viewing the article history, then clicking the "last" link in the line of your edit, and finally the "undo" link on the top of the right-hand column of the edit diff page. –Henning Makholm 23:17, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to move the page. The reason for the parenthetical on this article does not seem to be references to the software, but references to recruit training. Dekimasu よ! 09:50, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Boot camp (correctional) → Boot camp — The software is located at "Boot Camp", but this page is located at "Boot camp (correctional)". I feel most people looking up this term are looking for the "correctional" page. Also all of the other topics borrow the phrase from the correctional version. I have also requested a move of the current "Boot camp" page to "Boot camp (disambiguation)". —Henry W. Schmitt 18:56, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

Oppose leave the dab where it is, or move the military training camp to boot camp, becauee Boot camp originally refers to military recruit training. AND the correction usage comes from it, not the other way around. Plus Apple's software is not from the correctional usage. 132.205.44.5 22:08, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Personally, I agree the average when searching boot camp is searching for the Recruit training, so I would say have Boot camp redirect to the Recruit training as well as having Boot Camp redirect there. --Thε Rαnδom Eδιτor (tαlk) 23:34, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - Oh thanks for the link. I think that the current boot camp and Recruit training should be merged and boot camp should direct to Recruit training. I agree with the above comment.-Henry W. Schmitt 02:10, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. What words "originally" meant is not directly relevant for article naming if the current predominant usage has come to be something different. However, I see no evidence that this has happened to "boot camp". In default of reliable statistics implying the opposite, I do not believe that the correctional meaning has become so dominant that it should displace the disambiguation page. –Henning Makholm 00:05, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - I think that all of the other instances of the phrase "boot camp" borrowed the phrase for their own use. For example the software "Boot Camp" is a pun on "Boot camp", with boot instead meaning boot as in dual booting, a computing phrase. --Henry W. Schmitt 02:16, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Are you seriously claiming that "boot camp" came first for correctional programs, and only later was borrowed to stand for military recruit training? –Henning Makholm 23:15, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No. I think the correctional one borrowed the phrase as well. I am for redirecting boot camp to recruit training. -Henry W. Schmitt 05:07, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support - Boot camp is boot camp and anything else is a disambiguation. Reginmund 00:12, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment the proposal is to move shock incarceration boot camp to boot camp, but boot camp is recruit training, as mentioned in the opening paragraph in the boot camp (correctional) article... so boot camp is boot camp?? 132.205.44.5 22:05, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - Yes it is boot camp. Anything else gets its name from boot camp. Reginmund 23:16, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    - Except that the correctional version gets its name from something else, and we're discussing the move of the correctional version. 132.205.44.5 22:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Recruit training is the primary meaning. — AjaxSmack 02:27, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Most people looking up BOOT CAMP are looking for the _military_ usage IMHO. 132.205.44.5 22:11, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the misplaced move template on Boot camp. --Voidvector 20:39, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Alternate Proposal move boot camp (correctional) to shock incarceration, as it removes the parenthetical disambiguation, and is disambiguous. 132.205.44.5 22:06, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This proposal might have merits. However, are "shock incarceration" programs modeled after military recruit training? –Henning Makholm 23:02, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Seems more encyclopedic sounding but is there citable support of the term being widely used as the primary term for boot camp prisons? All of the cited sources use "boot camp". — AjaxSmack 02:27, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
New idea: Redirect "boot camp" to "recruit training" and have disambiguation link on that page for the correctional. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Henry W. Schmitt (talk • contribs) 05:24, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

It's not really a "boot camp," because a "boot camp" ends with a graduation that makes you a member of the military, is voluntary, and run by people who actually know what they're doing, as opposed to these so-called "correctional boot camps," which seem to be run by people who have seen "Full Metal Jacket" too many times but never actually served. Don't the claims of sexual abuse and the number of dead teenagers deserve something more than passing reference? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.144.20.179 (talk) 21:44, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely. That's why the neutrality of this article is disputed. Remember to sign your posts. --Pwnage8 (talk) 23:28, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Deaths

"According to a report in the New York Times there have been 30 known deaths of youths in US boot camps since 1980."

I can't believe this is the last sentence in the article, and the only mention of the possibility/phenomenon. 30 people have died in this sort of institution. I'm not trying to advance an agenda here, but allow me to suggest that just maybe in the interest of impartiality we might want to have a little more discussion than this? —INTRIGUEBLUE (talk|contribs) 06:28, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

POV

After examining this article, I see that it is biased towards boot camps. For instance, the recent trends section reads like an advertisement, and it doesn't cover the perspective of the kids who get sent to these facilities and how they feel about it, thereby giving undue weight to the issue. It also completely omits any mention of the physical force that was used on Martin Lee Anderson, again showing the bias. The criticism section is tagged for OR and unverified claims, so as to discredit what is written there (because the other sections also contain those things), and like the guy above me said, it's not presenting all sides of the issue fairly. --Pwnage8 (talk) 11:41, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

8th amendment?

Why is the treatment at boot camps not considered "cruel and unusual punishment"? Because it's cruel but not unusual? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.162.48.147 (talk) 11:59, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

please give a source

In one recent case, a boot camp in Florida (Victory Forge Military Academy) has come under intense scrutiny since its methods bordered on physical abuse. Their defense was that the parents had signed a contract stating it was okay to shackle and beat up their kids. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Echosmoke (talk • contribs) 01:45, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

According to the database monitoring possible institutionalized child abuse even racial comments and shackles did go. Southeastern Military Academy as they call themselves did go by the so-called guidelines. Here is the source from the local newspaper: Military academy findings at odds (By Ana X. Ceron, The Palm Beach Post, June 13, 2008)
OscarPetterson (talk) 19:46, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

the trouble with this article

The trouble with this article is that it does not adequately distinguish between military boot camps and juvenile boot camps for troubled teens. The confrontational style juvenile boot camp has a bad name and probably deservedly so. Military boarding schools on the other hand might not have the same stigma attached because of the traditional use of the confrontation model in a military boot camp. Juvenile Bootcamps for Troubled Teens go by many names. Wilderness or juvenile boot camps describe only one aspect of a type of parent choice program known by different names. Adventure therapy is the generic term which describes some of the activities of Wilderness therapy, Adventure education, some forms of Outdoor education or even some aspects of therapeutic boarding schools. Boot camp (correctional) has come to be associated with the failures of the confrontation model used in the juvenile boot camp type of intervention while adventure therapy is less controversial.I ♥ ♪♫ (talk) 00:13, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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China (sources!)

The part regarding China uses unreliable sources such as reddit posts (source 13). There are many repetitions used, so many that the section is barely understandable. The text is not neutral at all. Edit: It reads like a creative writing exercise based on real life, not like a text on an encyclopedia. Strigops-habroptila (talk) 21:02, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Free258, please discuss here. - Amigao (talk) 19:04, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, the content I added are of neutral point of view, with numerous reference sources for verification, many of which I have cited. For posts on Reddit, if you think this source is unreliable, you can change or delete it. If you think any part is repetitive, you can modify it based on this, but there is no need to delete the entire article, because there are many reliable sources that can prove the facts of this part. Thank you! Free258 (talk) 02:25, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You might want to review WP:NPOV thoroughly before making additional edits. - Amigao (talk) 17:13, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
+{{WikiProject banner shell|class=C|
+{{WikiProject Correction and Detention Facilities|importance=mid}}
+}}
+==Comment==
 A couple of points. Althought they share  some features, isn't there a difference between 'tough love' wilderness camps for teenagers who are sent there by parents, and penal institutions to which offenders are sent by the state?
 Also you claim the boot camp regime is about" promotion of fear, degradation, humiliation, discipline, respect for authority, absolute strictness, drill, physical conditioning and severe punishment in order to break the will of a person and to make him or her totally submissive"
-Doesn't such a sweeping statment (which may well be true) need backing up with examples?{{unsigned|Cute 1 4 u}}
+Doesn't such a sweeping statment (which may well be true) need backing up with examples?<small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Cute 1 4 u|Cute 1 4 u]] ([[User talk:Cute 1 4 u|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Cute 1 4 u|contribs]]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
 ==oops!==
@@ Line 10: / Line 14: @@
 ==Requested move==
 <div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:polltop -->
-:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of the {{{type|proposal}}}. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</font> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. ''
+:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of the {{{type|proposal}}}. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. ''
-{{{result|The result of the {{{type|proposal}}} was}}} '''no consensus''' to move the page. The reason for the parenthetical on this article does not seem to be references to the software, but references to [[recruit training]]. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]]<font color="darkgreen"><small>[[User talk:Dekimasu|よ!]]</small></font> 09:50, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
+{{{result|The result of the {{{type|proposal}}} was}}} '''no consensus''' to move the page. The reason for the parenthetical on this article does not seem to be references to the software, but references to [[recruit training]]. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]][[User talk:Dekimasu|<span style="color:darkgreen; font-size:smaller;">よ!</span>]] 09:50, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 <hr/>
 [[Boot camp (correctional)]] → [[Boot camp]] — The software is located at "Boot Camp", but this page is located at "Boot camp (correctional)". I feel most people looking up this term are looking for the "correctional" page. Also all of the other topics borrow the phrase from the correctional version. I have also requested a move of the current "Boot camp" page to "Boot camp (disambiguation)". —[[User:Henry W. Schmitt|Henry W. Schmitt]] 18:56, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
@@ Line 20: / Line 24: @@
 *'''Oppose''' leave the dab where it is, or move the military training camp to boot camp, becauee ''Boot camp originally refers to military recruit training''. AND the correction usage comes from it, not the other way around. Plus Apple's software is not from the correctional usage. [[User:132.205.44.5|132.205.44.5]] 22:08, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
-*'''Oppose''' - Personally, I agree the average when searching boot camp is searching for the [[Recruit training]], so I would say have [[Boot camp]] redirect to the [[Recruit training]] as well as having [[Boot Camp]] redirect there. --<font face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:The Random Editor|<font color="Black">Thε Rαnδom Eδιτor</font>]] ([[User talk:The Random Editor|<font color="black">tαlk</font>]])</font> 23:34, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
+*'''Oppose''' - Personally, I agree the average when searching boot camp is searching for the [[Recruit training]], so I would say have [[Boot camp]] redirect to the [[Recruit training]] as well as having [[Boot Camp]] redirect there. --<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">[[User:The Random Editor|<span style="color:Black;">Thε Rαnδom Eδιτor</span>]] ([[User talk:The Random Editor|<span style="color:black;">tαlk</span>]])</span> 23:34, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
 **'''Comment''' - Oh thanks for the link. I think that the current boot camp and Recruit training should be merged and boot camp should direct to Recruit training. I agree with the above comment.-[[User:Henry W. Schmitt|Henry W. Schmitt]] 02:10, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 *'''Oppose'''. What words "originally" meant is not directly relevant for article naming if the ''current'' predominant usage has come to be something different. However, I see no evidence that this has happened to "boot camp". In default of reliable statistics implying the opposite, I do not believe that the correctional meaning has become so dominant that it should displace the disambiguation page. –[[User:Henning Makholm|Henning Makholm]] 00:05, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
@@ Line 30: / Line 34: @@
 ***Yes it is boot camp. Anything else gets its name from boot camp. [[User:Reginmund|Reginmund]] 23:16, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 ****Except that the correctional version gets its name from something else, and we're discussing the move of the correctional version. [[User:132.205.44.5|132.205.44.5]] 22:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
-*'''Oppose'''.  [[Recruit training]] is the primary meaning. — <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">[[User talk:AjaxSmack|<font style="color:#fef;background:navy;">''' AjaxSmack '''</font>]]</span> 02:27, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
+*'''Oppose'''.  [[Recruit training]] is the primary meaning. — <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">[[User talk:AjaxSmack|<span style="color:#fef; background:navy;">''' AjaxSmack '''</span>]]</span> 02:27, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 ===Discussion===
@@ Line 43: / Line 47: @@
 :: This proposal might have merits. However, are "shock incarceration" programs modeled after military recruit training? –[[User:Henning Makholm|Henning Makholm]] 23:02, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
-*''Seems'' more encyclopedic sounding but is there citable support of the term being widely used as the primary term for boot camp prisons?  All of the cited sources use "boot camp". — <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">[[User talk:AjaxSmack|<font style="color:#fef;background:navy;">''' AjaxSmack '''</font>]]</span> 02:27, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
+*''Seems'' more encyclopedic sounding but is there citable support of the term being widely used as the primary term for boot camp prisons?  All of the cited sources use "boot camp". — <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">[[User talk:AjaxSmack|<span style="color:#fef; background:navy;">''' AjaxSmack '''</span>]]</span> 02:27, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * New idea: Redirect "boot camp" to "recruit training" and have disambiguation link on that page for the correctional.  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Henry W. Schmitt|Henry W. Schmitt]] ([[User talk:Henry W. Schmitt|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Henry W. Schmitt|contribs]]) 05:24, 15 September 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
-:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the {{{type|proposal}}}.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div><!-- Template:pollbottom -->
+:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the {{{type|proposal}}}.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:pollbottom -->
 It's not really a "boot camp," because a "boot camp" ends with a graduation that makes you a member of the military, is voluntary, and run by people who actually know what they're doing, as opposed to these so-called "correctional boot camps," which seem to be run by people who have seen "Full Metal Jacket" too many times but never actually served.  Don't the claims of sexual abuse and the number of dead teenagers deserve something more than passing reference?  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/207.144.20.179|207.144.20.179]] ([[User talk:207.144.20.179|talk]]) 21:44, 20 June 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
+:Absolutely. That's why the neutrality of this article is disputed. Remember to sign your posts. --[[User:Pwnage8|Pwnage8]] ([[User talk:Pwnage8|talk]]) 23:28, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 == Deaths ==
@@ Line 57: / Line 62: @@
 After examining this article, I see that it is biased towards boot camps.  For instance, the [[Boot camp (correctional)#Recent trends|recent trends]] section reads like an advertisement, and it doesn't cover the perspective of the kids who get sent to these facilities and how they feel about it, thereby giving [[Wikipedia:undue weight|undue weight]] to the issue.  It also completely omits any mention of the physical force that was used on [[Martin Lee Anderson]], again showing the bias.  The criticism section is tagged for OR and unverified claims, so as to discredit what is written there (because the other sections also contain those things), and like the guy above me said, it's not presenting all sides of the issue fairly. --[[User:Pwnage8|Pwnage8]] ([[User talk:Pwnage8|talk]]) 11:41, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
+== 8th amendment? ==
+Why is the treatment at boot camps not considered "cruel and unusual punishment"? Because it's cruel but not unusual?  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/87.162.48.147|87.162.48.147]] ([[User talk:87.162.48.147|talk]]) 11:59, 19 February 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
+==please give a source==
+In one recent case, a boot camp in Florida ([[Victory Forge Military Academy]]) has come under intense scrutiny since its methods bordered on physical abuse. Their defense was that the parents had signed a contract stating it was okay to shackle and beat up their kids.  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Echosmoke|Echosmoke]] ([[User talk:Echosmoke|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Echosmoke|contribs]]) 01:45, 23 February 2010 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
+:According to the database monitoring possible institutionalized child abuse even racial comments and shackles did go. [http://www.secretprisonsforteens.dk/fornitswiki/index.php/Southeastern_Military_Academy Southeastern Military Academy] as they call themselves did go by the so-called guidelines. Here is the source from the local newspaper: [http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/tcoast/epaper/2008/06/13/0613victory.html Military academy findings at odds] (By Ana X. Ceron, The Palm Beach Post, June 13, 2008)<br>[[User:OscarPetterson|OscarPetterson]] ([[User talk:OscarPetterson|talk]]) 19:46, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
+==the trouble with this article==
+The trouble with this article is that it does not adequately distinguish between military boot camps and juvenile boot camps for troubled teens. The confrontational style juvenile boot camp has a bad name and probably deservedly so. Military boarding schools on the other hand might not have the same stigma attached because of the traditional use of the confrontation model in a military boot camp. Juvenile Bootcamps for Troubled Teens go by many names. Wilderness or juvenile boot camps describe only one aspect of a type of parent choice program known by different names. [[Adventure therapy]] is the generic term which describes some of the activities of [[Wilderness therapy]], [[Adventure education]],  some forms of [[Outdoor education]] or even some aspects of  [[therapeutic boarding schools]]. Boot camp (correctional) has come to be associated with the failures of the confrontation model used in the juvenile boot camp type of intervention while adventure therapy is less controversial.[[User:Cdw1952|I ♥ ♪♫]] ([[User talk:Cdw1952|talk]]) 00:13, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
+== External links modified ==
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+*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120218215825/http://www.collegebound.net/content/article/boarding-school-spotlight-west-ridge-academy/8574/ to http://www.collegebound.net/content/article/boarding-school-spotlight-west-ridge-academy/8574/
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+== China  (sources!)  ==
+The part regarding China uses unreliable sources such as reddit posts (source 13). There are many repetitions used, so many that the section is barely understandable. The text is not neutral at all. Edit: It reads like a creative writing exercise based on real life, not like a text on an encyclopedia. [[User:Strigops-habroptila|Strigops-habroptila]] ([[User talk:Strigops-habroptila|talk]]) 21:02, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
+:{{u|Free258}}, please discuss here. - [[User:Amigao|Amigao]] ([[User talk:Amigao|talk]]) 19:04, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
+:<s>Hello, the content I added are of neutral point of view, with numerous reference sources for verification, many of which I have cited. For posts on Reddit, if you think this source is unreliable, you can change or delete it. If you think any part is repetitive, you can modify it based on this, but there is no need to delete the entire article, because there are many reliable sources that can prove the facts of this part. Thank you! [[User:Free258|Free258]] ([[User talk:Free258|talk]])</s> 02:25, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
+::You might want to review [[WP:NPOV]] thoroughly before making additional edits. - [[User:Amigao|Amigao]] ([[User talk:Amigao|talk]]) 17:13, 14 December 2024 (UTC)