Talk:Hiking: Difference between revisions

Browse history interactively

← Previous edit

Content deleted Content added

VisualWikitext

Inline

Latest revision as of 16:54, 15 December 2024

Travel and Tourism Mid‑importance

	Society portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Travel and Tourism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of travel and tourism related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Travel and TourismWikipedia:WikiProject Travel and TourismTemplate:WikiProject Travel and TourismTourism
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Health and fitness Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Health and fitness, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of health and physical fitness related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Health and fitnessWikipedia:WikiProject Health and fitnessTemplate:WikiProject Health and fitnessHealth and fitness
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Backpacking (inactive)

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Backpacking, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.BackpackingWikipedia:WikiProject BackpackingTemplate:WikiProject BackpackingBackpacking

Archives

Index

Archive 1

This page has archives. Sections older than 365 days may be automatically archived by when more than 6 sections are present.

History Section

The history section starts with the false claim that Petrarca was the first person to go on a hike, then proceeds debunking that claim in the following paragraphs. However, if someone stops reading that section after the first paragraph, they will come away believing that Petrarca was indeed the first hiker. Wouldn't it be much better - for other reasons as well - to present the history in chronological order? unsigned by 2003:E3:7F19:A66:F86D:3BEB:8EAB:18AE

The article only suggests that Petrarch was an early hiker not the first.Rwood128 (talk) 16:54, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Books on walking

Would it be useful to add a section on walking books? The following are some suggestions:

William Wordsworth, A Guide through the District of the Lakes
.Bill Bryson: A Walk in the Woods – describing his attempt to walk the Appalachian Trail
John Hillaby, Journey to the Jade Sea (1964); Journey through Britain; Journey through Europe; Journey to the Gods (1991). Accounts of various long distance walks.
Patrick Leigh Fermor, A Time of Gifts (1977); Between the Woods and the Water (1986); The Broken Road (2013). A trilogy describing a walk across Europe.
John Muir: A thousand-mile walk to the Gulf.
Dervla Murphy: walking across the Andes, Ethiopia, etc.
Robert Louis Stephenson: Travels with a Donkey – 12-day, 200-kilometre (120 mi) solo hiking journey through the Cévennes mountains.

Examples in other languages than English? Rwood128 (talk) 21:02, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Orphaned references in Hiking

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Hiking's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "h1":

From Lycian Way: "'Az gittik, uz gittik' sözünün doğruluğunu bu yollarda anladık" [In these ways we understood the truth of the word 'we went little, we went long']. Hürriyet (in Turkish). 1 May 2006. Retrieved 15 May 2020.
From Fethiye: "Fethiye-Ölüdeniz-Kızılada-Fethiye". Hürriyet (in Turkish). Retrieved 16 January 2016.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 22:26, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Images

Hi Nick Moyes, I have restored the two images that you deleted, presumably because you thought that they were off topic. I understand, but I'm preparing now to start using trail crampons for safety, even though I actually walk within a city's boundaries, and then, when deep snow comes, I will sometimes use snowshoes. But I will still be hiking/walking. I will also see signs of skis on the trails that I use. The two winter images emphasises their similarity with hiking in other seasons. The snowshoe article begins: "A snowshoe is footwear for walking over snow". Rwood128 (talk) 15:06, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

See: "Winter Hikes in Nova Scotia" Rwood128 (talk) 15:27, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Rwood128. Thank you for giving your rationale for reverting my removal of two irrelevant images from the 'See also' section of this article. Rather than stomping in and simply reverting you (which only causes upset) I thought it best to explain that I believe you were wrong to reinstate them, and to explain my rationale for their removal (which was mentioned in my edit summary):

'See also' sections do not contain images.
Neither snow shoes nor ski touring are mentioned in the article. They are, of course related activities and so a wikilink within the 'See also' section is quite acceptable.
If you feel they are relevant to the article, you should include a section of text about them before including an image, though I respectfully suggest you would be better doing so at Backpacking (hiking), where both more specialised techniques are already briefly mentioned, then in this more general article about hiking.
Images used in articles need to add encyclopaedic content about the subject. Neither this image nor this image add value to the article, and serve only to confuse and misdirect, as they are not referred to anywhere on the page. Indeed, they are wikilinked in 'See also' at 'Related activities' and not even as 'Types of hiking' So this is WP:UNDUE, just as including an image of a llama would be inappropriate on the grounds of it being relevant to Llama hiking.
And most whacky of all: the image of a girl feeding a bird on her arm whilst happening to be wearing snow shows (that you can't properly see) is, well, plain daft.

So please reinstate my edit and appreciate that we all have experiences when hiking that might be related to the broad subject, but not directly it, but this is an encyclopaedia which should serve to inform and not confuse the reader. Neither your own personal experiences, or mine as an active hiker and alpinist are relevant. I often carry an ice axe and crampons when I'm hiking in winter, or on approach walks in the Alps. None of those images would be directly relevant here, nor are the two that I removed. Please revert your edit which reinstated them. Nick Moyes (talk) 16:19, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Nick Moyes. I will await any further comment, and will also think further about this. There is mention of winter hiking, under hazards, but this is peripheral. A section on winter hiking is needed that can includes, for example, reference to the use of crampons and an ice ax. Your choice of words such as "wacky" and "daft" is puzzling, but maybe there is a cultural difference as you don't have a real winter in England.

The disputed images in fact illustrate the "see also" section, especially "related topics". Your comment about the snowshoe image being "plain daft" is over the top. There is a caption and my ancient eyes can see the snow shoes. Rwood128 (talk) 18:43, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As I said above, it is quite inappropriate to add any images to the 'See also' section, and I have to respond to you over the image of a girl feeding a bird whilst standing, wearing snow shows to illustrate 'hiking'. It is, indeed, quite daft to include such a wacky image. Can you not see how irrelevant that is to the article? (Maybe it's a cultural thing.) But I am pleased you have now seen sense and removed it. I have moved the images out from the 'See also' section into the section you've sensibly created on 'winter hiking' - I'm very happy to see that section included, and would very much welcome seeing it being expanded, as well as appropriate images added to support the text content. Please just ensure you follow WP:MOS when expanding content. You are quite right about English winters; that's why hikers in England who want to become competent alpine mountaineers often head a few hundred miles north to improve their winter skills by ice climbing in Scotland - a place where many of the world's toughest climbers have come from. Cheers, Nick Moyes (talk) 02:27, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Rwood128 and have restored the photograph of the snowshoer in the See also section. Snowshoeing is a form of hiking, and the picture illustrates snowshoeing, per MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE. Further, there is nothing is MOS:SEEALSO that forbids images in the section. If you'd like to come up with a better snowshoeing image, I'm open for substitution, but I think it illustrates a form of winter hiking, and I support keeping the photograph in. If you'd like to discuss further, let's stick to using Wikipedia guidelines, and avoid perjorative terms such as "daft". — hike395 (talk) 06:16, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks hike395, however, I had changed the snowshoeing image, so that we now have two for snowshoeing, and you deleted the one for Cross-country skiing. I'm presuming that was an error and will restore that image. Rwood128 (talk) 12:28, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There's no problem having these images in the article, providing they are relevant to an appropriate section, which they now seem to be - and I appreciate the efforts of all those working to improve the structure and content of this article, which is now showing a marked improvement. But there simply is no justification for any image being placed in a See also section, just as there would not be in 'References' either. Perhaps consider a WP:GALLERY if extra images are ever really necessary, but please consider mobile users who only see one section and their accompanying images at any one time. Meanwhile, I have repositioned the remaining image from 'See also' into the winter hiking section of the article, per MOS:IMAGELOCATION, and have expanded that section a little. On a desktop, they still currently appear to project down into the 'See also' sub-section, but they are nevertheless in the right place now. Nick Moyes (talk) 15:50, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Rwood128: I meant to restore the snowshoer with bird photo, but if you prefer the snowshoers in Bryce Canyon, it's clear that the consensus is not restore the bird photo. — hike395 (talk) 14:38, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hike395, I was happy with the earlier more homely image but thought that the new image might be more acceptable to Nick Moyes. In the end I think the article has benefitted from the debate. Rwood128 (talk) 15:59, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think it has indeed benefited from the attention (and yes, I like the alternative snowshoeing image a lot better) - thanks both. As an aside, you might also have spotted that I've now uploaded and inserted a citation and image of alpaca trekking to llama hiking because I thought we were unfairly excluding alpacas from the page, and also because the choice of main image there was a bit off-topic (aka daft). Warning: Anyone shoving an alpaca into this article will be instantly blocked. (Only kidding!). Cheers, Nick Moyes (talk) 16:11, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hiking with children

Schi11, the new Hiking#Hiking with children addition reads too much like a manual. See Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a manual, guidebook, textbook, or scientific journal. Please revise (you risk having it deleted). I'll try and help. Rwood128 (talk) 13:27, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestion: Maybe the cited sources in German can be paraphrased and quoted? Rwood128 (talk) 13:48, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And in English [1], and [2], etc. Rwood128 (talk) 14:22, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with these comments - we aren't here to give advice about how to do something. I'm going to give it a quick once-over. GirthSummit _(blether) 16:29, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nick Moyes, re your recent edit, I don't know whether it is as glaringly obvious to all parent that: "it is possible to engage in hiking with young children", as you think, though the wording might be improved. In my experience successful hiking with a young child requires lots of planning and flexibility. Rwood128 (talk) 20:32, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Rwood128. I don't think our role is to spell out things that are not glaringly obvious; it is, of course, to cover a topic encyclopaedically, and we need to avoid making statements that might themselves mislead. My edit was purely intended to remove poor wording that to me would sound awkward to, or confuse, a reader. I'm OK with expanding this section a little more in order to explain the very different issues involved with hiking with babies, with toddlers and with older children. I suggest this book might be a suitable source to base any expansion upon, or it could go in 'Further reading'. It certainly covers the key areas and, like you, I also have experience of taking a baby, and then a 4 year old, and then a teenage child up major mountain trails. Yes, I agree: they all involve careful planning. There are two definitions that seem essential to appreciate here in any editing: that of what 'hiking' is, and what a 'child' is. I do feel that some of this article's editors seem determined to expand it into areas that stray well beyond what general hiking is, and into into realms best covered by other articles. (I would, for example, suggest that the inclusion of the photo of Striding Edge is a perfect example of that. If anyone's been on it, they'll know why I say that. It's an easy scrambling route, less a hiking trail, so doesn't really belong here). Nick Moyes (talk) 00:37, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Nick, I certainly agree about the need not to stray too far into related areas. With regard to the photo of Striding Edge, I believe that I added that, and for me it represents more or less the boundary of what I see as hiking. This also includes hiking in snow, paths protected with chains, etc, in the Alps, and, here in Newfoundland. walking with trail crampons in winter on easy paths locally, Rwood128 (talk) 12:48, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Rwood128 OK fair enough. On further reflection I might accept that Striding Edge is at the very upper limit of relevance to 'Hiking' - with some limited scrambling involved - and the caption does make that clear. But other classic UK routes like Crib Goch on Snowdon or Aonach Eagach Ridge in Glencoe definitely fall into the scrambling category and so wouldn't be appropriate here. But I still wonder whether an image of another route better known for mainstream hiking, rather than pushing the limits would be better. Perhaps the Miner's Track or the Pyg track on Snowdon might fit the bill more? (Somewhere I've a photo of my 4 year old doing it all by herself, and carrying her own rucksack too; I might upload it if it looks potentially useful!) Nick Moyes (talk) 15:59, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The point of the Striding Edge image was to demonstrate a hiking "boundary", rather than a typical hike. The Aonach Eagach ridge was done by a friend of mine, years ago, who was no mountaineer, and I suppose some might see it as representing the "very upper limit" between hiking and rock climbing. I did the Snowdon Horseshoe as a student on a hiking weekend. We stayed mostly below the crest, with little scrambling, and I was guided through the only really exposed scramble (that I remember) by a mountaineering type dangling over an abyss! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rwood128 (talk • contribs) 18:35, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hazard

Hike395 why change the image, in view of the discussion on the Talk page, especially as you suggest that this image is of a more obviously hazardous hiking route – which I don't in fact see. Anyhow aren't there too many photos of the North American landscape already? Can you clarify? Rwood128 (talk) 21:32, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I interpreted Nick Moyes's comment to say that Striding Edge was a marginal hike. I was trying to find a picture of an arete hike that is less hazardous than Striding Edge. Clouds Rest is a perfectly standard hike on an arete, no scrambling or handholds. It actually isn't that hazardous, unless you do something actively unsafe. You can get a sense of that hiking that spot from the video here. There's a 1000m dropoff to the right of the arete, but it's difficult to take a picture that shows both the knife-edge and the 1000m drop-off.

I'm not insisting that the photograph stay in the article, if you think that we need to restore geographical balance. I can try to find a non-North-American version of a safe-ish arete hike. — hike395 (talk) 23:55, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I found a photo on flickr of a ridge hike in the Ötztal Alps. I've never been to that spot, but the satellite and topo maps show it's an arete. Not sure how dangerous it is, but the hiker shown doesn't seem to be scrambling. — hike395 (talk) 00:10, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

fyi -- a fun photograph that shows the 1000-m dropoff at Clouds Rest, but not the knife-edge is here. — hike395 (talk) 00:16, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) I'd just come back by suggesting that exposure is a very obvious hazard, and it might perhaps be more useful (=encyclopaedic) to highlight a less obvious hazard, and on a less extreme hiking route than on a sharp arete. Maybe something like use of a water filter to avoid risks from contaminated water, or perhaps sunstroke avoidance, or dehydration, carrying too much equipment, being insufficiently prepared, benightment, hypothermia, or navigation/map-reading failure, having toddlers in tow (!), accidents/injury, loss of daylight, bear spray?, the so-called 'bad step/mauvais pas' or swollen river crossings which normal hikers can encounter wherein their lack of experience in scrambling/rock techniques mean they can suddenly become wildly out of their depth etc. (suddenly remembering a woman crying in sheer panic at the start of the Crib Goch ridge which I and my daughter skipped across without a problem!) BTW, whilst I'm here, did anyone tell the youths hiking in Israel that they should have carried rainproof gear? Our article's 'Equipment' section currently says they need to. It's important to appreciate that people hiking in arid climates encounter quite different hazards and needs than those of us in cold, temperate climes. Nick Moyes (talk) 00:43, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We could show this photo of Crib Goch. It's a Featured Picture (which I prefer to show in articles), and also shows hikers on the arete. Alternatively, per Nick, we could show the risk due to animals with this photo of a bear trying to steal hikers' gear. I rather like that one. — hike395 (talk) 15:01, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nice picture, but really not OK for this article at all, as that route is not a hiking route - it's an exposed scramble, impossible to get on from the Pen-y-Pass end without a short but challenging scrambling move of c.10m, then a considerable amount of exposed scrambling elsewhere along it. Please don't be tempted to include any pics of that route on this page as it's too off-topic (I'd rather have the bear!). Quite a few people come to grief thinking the Crib Goch ridge is just an exposed walk/hike; I remember soloing a winter route on Snowdon's Trinity face back in Feb 1986, descending via the icy Crib Goch ridge, only to learn that the day previously the president of the Alpine Club (UK) had fallen to his death whilst making the same traverse. But getting back on topic: I've spent the afternoon poring over maps and images to locate the Austrian ridge route added by Hike395 in diff. I've updated the image description on Commons and can confirm it's the Rotkogel (2894m) - see also [3] and, apart from steel cables for protection in one short section, there's no obvious scrambling on that route, so I'm quite OK with it's use here. Nick Moyes (talk) 16:50, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Great choice hike395. No cables in UK! It is great to get agreement here. Rwood128 (talk) 19:15, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 26 August 2019 and 11 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Hanna wietsma.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 23:27, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-{{Vital article|level=4|class=B|topic=Life}}
+{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|vital=yes|1=
-{{WikiProject banner shell|1=
+{{WikiProject Travel and Tourism|importance=mid}}
-{{WikiProject Travel and Tourism|class=B|importance=mid}}
+{{WikiProject Health and fitness |importance=Mid}}
-{{WikiProject Health and fitness |class=B |importance=Mid}}
+{{WikiProject Backpacking|importance=Top}}
-{{WikiProject Backpacking|class=B|importance=Top}}
 }}
-{{dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment | course = Wikipedia:Wiki_Ed/University_of_Arizona/Linguistics_in_the_Digital_Age_(Fall_2019) | assignments = [[User:Hanna wietsma|Hanna wietsma]] | start_date = 2019-08-26 | end_date = 2019-12-11 }}
 {{Archives|search=yes}}
@@ Line 18: / Line 17: @@
 }}
-== Boots or runners? ==
+== History Section ==
+The history section starts with the false claim that Petrarca was the first person to go on a hike, then proceeds debunking that claim in the following paragraphs.
+However, if someone stops reading that section after the first paragraph, they will come away believing that Petrarca was indeed the first hiker.
-I was interested in the latest edit 28/7/20 re the use of trail runners. I still use light weight boots for backpacking holidays (I'm very old!). I also find poles of great value in the Alps. However, I retired my Salomon hiking shoes after I lost faith in their grip on steep rock – but also because of the smell. I use walking shoes made of leather when not backpacking, which breathe (cooler than synthetic material), and have exceptionally good traction and are also more stable than the Salomon hikers. They are actually not specialized walking gear but rugged "city" walking shoes. I waterproof them with mink oil – I found that my Salomon hikers took forever to dry and were porous (no Goretex, which I see as of little potential value). I checked what my local long distance trail has to say: "Trail-rated hiking boots or shoes are a must on the rugged [[East Coast Trail]]. Sneakers, running shoes, sandals or flip-flops are not adequate protection for your ankles and soles of your feet". Trail runners appear not to be recommended for this trail.
+Wouldn't it be much better - for other reasons as well - to present the history in chronological order?
+unsigned by  [[2003:E3:7F19:A66:F86D:3BEB:8EAB:18AE]]
-Walking across Wales, I once tested hiking sandals (my evening wear) on a canal path but gave up after 20 minutes! A leading writer on mountain walking had recommended using them in the Alps, but presumably he had superior muscles to mine. [[User:Rwood128|Rwood128]] ([[User talk:Rwood128|talk]]) 12:50, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
+:The article only suggests that Petrarch was an early hiker not the first.[[User:Rwood128|Rwood128]] ([[User talk:Rwood128|talk]]) 16:54, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
-:See [https://www.cicerone.co.uk/top-tips-for-european-trek-packing Jonathan Williams and Lesley Williams "Top tips for European trek packing" [[Cicerone Press]], 4 June 2015]
-== Hazards section edit ==
-'''Suggested Edits:'''
-'''Remove:''' "The crossing of glaciers is potentially hazardous because of the potential for crevasses. These giant cracks in the ice are not always visible as snow can be blown and freeze over the top to make a snowbridge. To cross a glacier the use of a rope, crampons and ice axes are usually required".<br>
-* ''Reason:'' The activity described above is called "glacier travel", and is within the realm of "mountaineering" or "mountain climbing", NOT "hiking". Hiking and mountaineering are two very different activities. Mountaineering requires highly specialized tools, knowledge, and training which are well beyond the scope of hiking. It also requires a team of individuals with specialized roles within the team, whereas hiking does not. See ''Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills'' <ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountaineering:_The_Freedom_of_the_Hills</ref>
-*
-'''Remove:''' photo with the description "Hikers in Norway's Galdhøpigg are roped together for protection against falls into crevasses".<br>
-* ''Reason:'' The photo does not depict hiking; it depicts glacier travel.
-'''Move:''' "Deep, fast-flowing rivers pose another danger" to the end of the previous paragraph and delete "that can be mitigated with ropes".<br>
-* ''Reason:'' Navigating rivers is a hazard of hiking; however, hikers do not use ropes to aid in river crossings unless ropes were placed as a permanent installation, similar to a bridge.
-[[User:SparkleTaco|SparkleTaco]] ([[User talk:SparkleTaco|talk]]) 20:33, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
-:Numerous established trails cross mountain features including glaciers. You seem to be applying personal analysis to the article content in violation of [[WP:SYNTH]]. The image in question shows people hiking in the snow; being connected by ropes does not preclude their being engaged in hiking. The "The crossing of glaciers" paragraph, though is currently unsourced though, and for that reason I don't take any exception to removing that paragraph. [[User:VQuakr|VQuakr]] ([[User talk:VQuakr|talk]]) 20:42, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
-:::Alpine trails in the Alps (and elsewhere) may cross glaciers. Also some winter hiking involve, ice axes, crampons, and even ropes. Re river crossings: Isn't the carrying of a rope recommended when a potentially dangerous river crossing is on a hiking route? I've also witnessed children being roped-up on a Swiss pass hiking route where ladders were involved. Ropes, ladders, and other aids are found on more difficult (grade 3) trails. Also some hikes may involve [[scrambling]] which is, I suppose, easy mountainering. A source for the hiking across a glacier will be easy to find. [[User:Rwood128|Rwood128]] ([[User talk:Rwood128|talk]]) 21:39, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
-<br> Thank you, [[User:VQuakr|VQuakr]] and [[User:Rwood128|Rwood128]]. I do not believe my edits are in violation of [[WP:SYNTH]] since I originally cited a reliable, published source that is directly related to the topic of the article, and directly supports my position. See [[Mountaineering:_The_Freedom_of_the_Hills|''Mountaineering: The Freedom of the Hills'']] as cited above. I apply personal analysis only insomuch as I was a mountaineering guide and instructor for over 15 years and am currently a glaciologist. I also worked for the National Parks Service as a [https://www.nps.gov/features/colm/virtualtour/section/hard/activity/find-your-calling/climbing-ranger.html climbing ranger] on Mt. Rainier, have summited high mountains on each continent, including Antarctica, have led expeditions all over the world, including Denali, Everest, and trekked to the North Pole from mainland Canada on skis. I am also a life-long hiker and backpacker.<br> There are serious safety concerns associated with glacier travel, and referring to it as hiking, is misleading and dangerous for any hiker who does not understand the difference. <br> My issue isn't necessarily about crossing glaciers, it's about crossing crevassed glaciers. Doing so requires special protection, including ropes, and in-depth knowledge well in advance of walking along an established trail (aka hiking)<ref>https://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/glacier-and-roped-travel-for-mountaineering.html</ref><ref>https://www.wta.org/go-outside/trail-smarts/how-to/how-to-cross-a-glacier</ref><ref>https://www.mountaineers.org/books/books/glacier-travel-crevasse-rescue-2nd-ed</ref><ref>https://www.realbuzz.com/articles-interests/walking/article/hiking-vs-mountaineering/</ref><ref>https://outdoorinquirer.com/hiking-vs-trekking-vs-mountaineering/</ref><ref>https://www.wetrekkers.com/article-details/difference-between-hiking-trekking-and-mountaineering</ref>. You state "numerous established trails cross mountain features including glaciers". I agree; however, these are mountaineering routes not hiking trails. The rare hiking trail that actually does cross a glacier, are heavily traveled and do not cross anywhere near crevasses, for instance those on [https://www.wta.org/go-hiking/hikes/mount-st.-helens-worm-flows-route Mount St. Hellens] and [https://www.wta.org/go-hiking/hikes/mount-adams-south-climb Mt. Adams]. And since glaciers are constantly moving and shifting, routes must be reestablished numerous times each year, making hiking across a crevassed glacier, not just deadly, but also impractical. Could you please reference any hiking trails you believe cross crevassed glaciers?<br> The image does not show hiking; the people in the photo are roped up and traveling on a glacier, which is firmly within the realm of mountaineering, not hiking (see references). It's not just a question of semantics; as stated above, mountaineering requires specialized tools, training, skills, and knowledge beyond the scope of hiking, and includes a team of people who each have different roles within the team--your life literally depends on your teammates and that can't be said of hiking. Roping up is required to safely cross a crevassed glacier and roping up is a defining feature of mountaineering. Can you please provide supporting citations for your comment "being connected by ropes does not preclude their being engaged in hiking"? <br> Please take the time to review the citations above before commenting further, and at minimum, please cite reliable source material in support of you position, otherwise you are guilty of [[WP:SYNTH]] yourself. Thank you. [[User:SparkleTaco|SparkleTaco]] ([[User talk:SparkleTaco|talk]]) 01:34, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
-:[[Glacier hiking]] contains multiple sources that use the term "glacier hike" or "glacier hiking", so this isn't a term invented by Wikipedia. [[User:VQuakr|VQuakr]] ([[User talk:VQuakr|talk]]) 02:13, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
-::Yes; which is why [[Glacier hiking]] was proposed for deletion until you blocked it. The sources cited therein do not refer to or define "glacier hiking" specifically, so the term "glacier hiking" ''was'' invented by Wikipedia. There is, in fact, not one citation in that article validating or supporting the term "glacier hiking". If you follow the citations on that page to their source, you will find no support for the term "glacier hiking". And again, you're missing the point; walking across a glacier isn't by definition mountaineering; traveling across crevasses or roping up in a climbing team is. There is no mention on [[Glacier hiking]] of crossing crevasses or roped-travel, so I believe your reference to the page is irrelevant. Can you provide any original source that equates crossing crevasses or roped-travel with hiking? [[User:SparkleTaco|SparkleTaco]] ([[User talk:SparkleTaco|talk]]) 02:55, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
-:::"A sourced article refutes my opinion so it should be deleted" is a strange take. Straw man. [[WP:SATISFY]]. [[User:VQuakr|VQuakr]] ([[User talk:VQuakr|talk]]) 02:57, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
-::::[[User:SparkleTaco|SparkleTaco]] I have attempted to address the issues raised by you.
-::::With regard to [[Glacier hiking]], perhaps, this can be best addressed by clarifying that it is a highly technical form of hiking with affinities to mountaineering – the term itself is an established one, as a Google search revealed to me. [[User:Rwood128|Rwood128]] ([[User talk:Rwood128|talk]]) 15:22, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
-:::::Another example of a more extreme type of hiking is [[via ferrata]], where [[Via ferrata#Grading| easy and moderate routes]] can be described as hiking but many routes are a easy type of mountaineering. Perhaps the article needs to have a section on more hazardous forms of hiking? [[User:Rwood128|Rwood128]] ([[User talk:Rwood128|talk]]) 14:06, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
-{{reflist talk}}
 == Books on walking ==
 Would it be useful to add a section on walking books? The following are some suggestions:
 * [[William Wordsworth]], ''[[A Guide through the District of the Lakes]]''
 *.[[Bill Bryson]]: ''[[A Walk in the Woods (book)|A Walk in the Woods]]'' – describing his attempt to walk the [[Appalachian Trail]]
@@ Line 70: / Line 33: @@
 * [[Dervla Murphy]]: walking across the Andes, Ethiopia, etc.
 * [[Robert Louis Stephenson]]: ''[[Travels with a Donkey]]'' – 12-day, 200-kilometre (120 mi) solo hiking journey through the [[Cévennes]] mountains.
+Examples in other languages than English? [[User:Rwood128|Rwood128]] ([[User talk:Rwood128|talk]]) 21:02, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
-Examples in other languages than English?
-[[User:Rwood128|Rwood128]] ([[User talk:Rwood128|talk]]) 21:02, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 == Orphaned references in [[:Hiking]] ==
 I check pages listed in [[:Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting]] to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for [[User:AnomieBOT/docs/OrphanReferenceFixer|orphaned references]] in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of [[:Hiking]]'s orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for ''this'' article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
@@ Line 86: / Line 46: @@
 == Images ==
 Hi [[User:Nick Moyes|Nick Moyes]], I have restored the two images that you deleted, presumably because you thought that they were off topic. I understand, but I'm preparing now to start using [[Scandinavian crampon|trail crampons]] for safety, even though I actually walk within a city's boundaries, and then, when deep snow comes, I will sometimes use [[snowshoes]]. But I will still be hiking/walking. I will also see signs of skis on the trails that I use. The two winter images emphasises their similarity with hiking in other seasons. The snowshoe article begins: "A snowshoe is footwear for walking over snow". [[User:Rwood128|Rwood128]] ([[User talk:Rwood128|talk]]) 15:06, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
 :See: [https://caen-keepexploring.canada.travel/things-to-do/best-winter-hikes-nova-scotia "Winter Hikes in Nova Scotia"] [[User:Rwood128|Rwood128]] ([[User talk:Rwood128|talk]]) 15:27, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
 ::Hi, {{u|Rwood128}}. Thank you for giving your rationale for reverting [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Hiking&diff=prev&oldid=989695214&diffmode=source my removal] of two irrelevant images from the 'See also' section of this article. Rather than stomping in and simply reverting you (which only causes upset) I thought it best to explain that '''I believe you were wrong to reinstate them''', and to explain my rationale for their removal (which was mentioned in my edit summary):
 ::*'See also' sections do not contain images.
@@ Line 97: / Line 57: @@
 ::*And most whacky of all: the image of a girl feeding a bird on her arm whilst happening to be wearing snow shows (that you can't properly see) is, well, plain daft.
 ::So please reinstate my edit and appreciate that we all have experiences when hiking that might be related to the broad subject, but not directly it, but this is an encyclopaedia which should serve to inform and not confuse the reader. Neither your own personal experiences, or mine as an active hiker and alpinist are relevant. I often carry an ice axe and crampons when I'm hiking in winter, or on approach walks in the Alps. None of those images would be directly relevant here, nor are the two that I removed. Please revert your edit which reinstated them. [[User:Nick Moyes|Nick Moyes]] ([[User talk:Nick Moyes|talk]]) 16:19, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
 :::Thanks [[User:Nick Moyes|Nick Moyes]]. I will await any further comment, and will also think further about this. There is mention of winter hiking, under hazards, but this is peripheral. A section on winter hiking is needed that can includes, for example, reference to the use of crampons and an ice ax. Your choice of words such as "wacky" and "daft" is puzzling, but maybe there is a cultural difference as you don't have a real winter in England.
 :::The disputed images in fact illustrate the "see also" section, especially "related topics". Your comment about the snowshoe image being "plain daft" is over the top. There is a caption and my ancient eyes can see the snow shoes. [[User:Rwood128|Rwood128]] ([[User talk:Rwood128|talk]]) 18:43, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
 ::::As I said above, it is quite inappropriate to add ''any'' images to the 'See also' section, and I have to respond to you over the image of a girl feeding a bird whilst standing, wearing snow shows to illustrate 'hiking'. It is, indeed, quite daft to include such a wacky image. Can you not see how irrelevant that is to the article? (Maybe it's a cultural thing.) But I am pleased you have now seen sense and removed it. I have moved the images out from the 'See also' section into the section you've sensibly created on 'winter hiking' - I'm very happy to see that section included, and would very much welcome seeing  it being expanded, as well as appropriate images added to support the text content. Please just ensure you follow [[WP:MOS]] when expanding content. You are quite right about English winters; that's why hikers in England who want to become competent alpine mountaineers often head a few hundred miles north to improve their winter skills by ice climbing in Scotland - a place where many of the world's toughest climbers have come from. Cheers, [[User:Nick Moyes|Nick Moyes]] ([[User talk:Nick Moyes|talk]]) 02:27, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
@@ Line 104: / Line 66: @@
 :Thanks [[User:Hike395|hike395]], however, I had changed the snowshoeing image, so that we now have two for snowshoeing, and you deleted the one for [[Cross-country skiing]]. I'm presuming that was an error and will restore that image. [[User:Rwood128|Rwood128]] ([[User talk:Rwood128|talk]]) 12:28, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 ::There's no problem having these images in the article, providing they are relevant to an appropriate section, which they now seem to be - and I appreciate the efforts of all those working to improve the structure and content of this article, which is now showing a marked improvement. But there simply is no justification for any image being placed in a ''See also'' section, just as there would not be in 'References' either. Perhaps consider a [[WP:GALLERY]] if extra images are ever really necessary, but please consider mobile users who only see one section and their accompanying images at any one time. Meanwhile, I have repositioned the remaining image from 'See also' into the winter hiking section of the article, per [[MOS:IMAGELOCATION]], and have expanded that section a little. On a desktop, they still currently appear to project down into the 'See also' sub-section, but they are nevertheless in the right place now.  [[User:Nick Moyes|Nick Moyes]] ([[User talk:Nick Moyes|talk]]) 15:50, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 :::{{ping|Rwood128}} I meant to restore the snowshoer with bird photo, but if you prefer the snowshoers in Bryce Canyon, it's clear that the consensus is not restore the bird photo. — [[User:Hike395|hike395]] ([[User talk:Hike395|talk]]) 14:38, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 [[User:Hike395|Hike395]], I was happy with the earlier more homely image but thought that the new image might be more acceptable to [[User:Nick Moyes|Nick Moyes]]. In the end I think the article has benefitted from the debate. [[User:Rwood128|Rwood128]] ([[User talk:Rwood128|talk]]) 15:59, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 ::I think it has indeed benefited from the attention (and yes, I like the alternative snowshoeing image a ''lot'' better) - thanks both. As an aside, you might also have spotted that I've now uploaded and inserted a citation and image of alpaca trekking to [[llama hiking]] because I thought we were unfairly excluding alpacas from the page, and also because the choice of main image there was a bit off-topic (aka daft). Warning: Anyone shoving an alpaca into this article will be instantly blocked. (Only kidding!). Cheers,  [[User:Nick Moyes|Nick Moyes]] ([[User talk:Nick Moyes|talk]]) 16:11, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 == Hiking with children ==
 [[User talk:Schi11|Schi11]], the new [[Hiking#Hiking with children]] addition reads too much like a manual. See [[Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a manual, guidebook, textbook, or scientific journal]]. Please revise (you risk having it deleted). I'll try and help. [[User:Rwood128|Rwood128]] ([[User talk:Rwood128|talk]]) 13:27, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
 :Suggestion: Maybe the cited sources in German can be paraphrased and quoted? [[User:Rwood128|Rwood128]] ([[User talk:Rwood128|talk]]) 13:48, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
 :: And in English [https://americanhiking.org/resources/hiking-with-kids/], and [https://www.popsci.com/story/diy/hiking-kids-guide/], etc. [[User:Rwood128|Rwood128]] ([[User talk:Rwood128|talk]]) 14:22, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
 :I agree with these comments - we aren't here to give advice about how to do something. I'm going to give it a quick once-over. [[User:Girth Summit|<span style="font-family:Impact;color:#006400;">Girth</span><span style="font-family:Impact;color:#4B0082;">Summit</span>]][[User talk:Girth Summit|<sub style="font-family:Segoe print;color:blue;"> (blether)</sub>]] 16:29, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
 :::[[User:Nick Moyes|Nick Moyes]], re your recent edit, I don't know whether it is as glaringly obvious to all parent that: "it is possible to engage in hiking with young children", as you think, though the wording might be improved. In my experience successful hiking with a young child requires lots of planning and flexibility. [[User:Rwood128|Rwood128]] ([[User talk:Rwood128|talk]]) 20:32, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
 ::::Thanks, {{u|Rwood128}}. I don't think our role is to spell out things that are not glaringly obvious; it is, of course, to cover a topic encyclopaedically, and we need to avoid making statements that might themselves mislead. [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Hiking&type=revision&diff=996860205&oldid=996773605&diffmode=source My edit] was purely intended to remove poor wording that to me would sound awkward  to, or confuse, a reader. I'm OK with expanding this section a little more in order to explain the very different issues involved with hiking with babies, with toddlers and with older children. I suggest [https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Babes_in_the_Woods/ygiBt_uAWKcC this book] might be a suitable source to base any expansion upon, or it could go in 'Further reading'. It certainly covers the key areas and, like you, I also have experience of taking a baby, and then a 4 year old, and then a teenage child up major mountain trails. Yes, I agree: they all involve careful planning. There are two definitions that seem essential to appreciate here in any editing: that of what 'hiking' is, and what a 'child' is. I do feel that some of this article's editors seem determined to expand it into areas that stray well beyond what general hiking is, and into into realms best covered by other articles. (I would, for example, suggest that the inclusion of the photo of Striding Edge is a perfect example of that. If anyone's been on it, they'll know why I say that. It's an easy [[scrambling]] route, less a hiking trail, so doesn't really belong here).  [[User:Nick Moyes|Nick Moyes]] ([[User talk:Nick Moyes|talk]]) 00:37, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
 :::::Thanks [[User:Nick Moyes|Nick]], I certainly agree about the need not to stray too far into related areas. With regard to the photo of [[Striding Edge]], I believe that I added that, and for me it represents more or less the boundary of what I see as hiking. This also includes hiking in snow, paths protected with chains, etc, in the Alps, and, here in [[Newfoundland]]. walking with trail crampons in winter on easy paths locally, [[User:Rwood128|Rwood128]] ([[User talk:Rwood128|talk]]) 12:48, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
 ::::::{{u|Rwood128}} OK fair enough. On further reflection I might accept that Striding Edge is at the ''very'' upper limit of relevance to 'Hiking' - with some limited scrambling involved - and the caption does make that clear. But  other classic UK routes like Crib Goch on Snowdon  or Aonach Eagach Ridge in Glencoe definitely fall into the scrambling category and so wouldn't be appropriate here. But I still wonder whether an image of another route better known for mainstream hiking, rather than pushing the limits would be better. Perhaps the Miner's Track or the Pyg track on Snowdon might fit the bill more? (Somewhere I've a photo of my 4 year old doing it all by herself, and carrying her own rucksack too; I might upload it if it looks potentially useful!) [[User:Nick Moyes|Nick Moyes]] ([[User talk:Nick Moyes|talk]]) 15:59, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
-The point of the [[Striding Edge]] image was to demonstrate a hiking "boundary", rather than a typical hike. The [[Aonach Eagach]] ridge was done by a friend of mine, years ago, who was no mountaineer, and I suppose some might see it as representing the "very upper limit" between hiking and rock climbing. I did the [[Snowdon]] Horseshoe as a student on a hiking weekend. We stayed mostly below the crest, with little scrambling, and I was guided through the only really exposed scramble (that I remember) by a mountaineering type dangling over an abyss!
+The point of the [[Striding Edge]] image was to demonstrate a hiking "boundary", rather than a typical hike. The [[Aonach Eagach]] ridge was done by a friend of mine, years ago, who was no mountaineer, and I suppose some might see it as representing the "very upper limit" between hiking and rock climbing. I did the [[Snowdon]] Horseshoe as a student on a hiking weekend. We stayed mostly below the crest, with little scrambling, and I was guided through the only really exposed scramble (that I remember) by a mountaineering type dangling over an abyss! <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Rwood128|Rwood128]] ([[User talk:Rwood128#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rwood128|contribs]]) 18:35, 29 December 2020 (UTC)</small>
+== Hazard ==
+[[User:Hike395|Hike395]] why change the image, in view of the discussion on the Talk page, especially as you suggest that this image is of a more obviously hazardous hiking route – which I don't in fact see. Anyhow aren't there too many photos of the North American landscape already? Can you clarify? [[User:Rwood128|Rwood128]] ([[User talk:Rwood128|talk]]) 21:32, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
+:I interpreted {{U|Nick Moyes}}'s comment to say that Striding Edge was a marginal hike. I was trying to find a picture of an arete hike that is ''less'' hazardous than Striding Edge. Clouds Rest is a perfectly standard hike on an arete, no scrambling or handholds. It actually isn't that hazardous, unless you do something actively unsafe. You can get a sense of that hiking that spot from the video [[:File:Summit of Clouds Rest.webm|here]]. There's a 1000m dropoff to the right of the arete, but it's difficult to take a picture that shows both the knife-edge and the 1000m drop-off.
+:I'm not insisting that the photograph stay in the article, if you think that we need to restore geographical balance. I can try to find a non-North-American version of a safe-ish arete hike. — [[User:Hike395|hike395]] ([[User talk:Hike395|talk]]) 23:55, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
+::I found a photo on flickr of a ridge hike in the [[Ötztal Alps]]. I've never been to that spot, but the satellite and topo maps show it's an arete. Not sure how dangerous it is, but the hiker shown doesn't seem to be scrambling. — [[User:Hike395|hike395]] ([[User talk:Hike395|talk]]) 00:10, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
+::fyi -- a fun photograph that shows the 1000-m dropoff at Clouds Rest, but not the knife-edge is [[:File:Yosemite Valley From Clouds Rest.jpeg|here]]. — [[User:Hike395|hike395]] ([[User talk:Hike395|talk]]) 00:16, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
+:::{{ec}} I'd just come back by suggesting that exposure is a very obvious hazard, and it might perhaps be more useful (=encyclopaedic) to highlight a less obvious hazard, and on a less extreme hiking route than on a sharp arete. Maybe something like use of a water filter to avoid risks from contaminated water, or perhaps sunstroke avoidance, or dehydration, carrying too much equipment, being insufficiently prepared, benightment, hypothermia, or navigation/map-reading failure, having toddlers in tow (!), accidents/injury, loss of daylight, [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bear_spray_demonstration_(32984037023).jpg bear spray?], the so-called 'bad step/mauvais pas' or swollen river crossings which normal hikers can encounter wherein their lack of experience in scrambling/rock techniques mean they can suddenly become wildly out of their depth etc. (suddenly remembering a woman crying in sheer panic at the start of the Crib Goch ridge which I and my daughter skipped across without a problem!)  BTW, whilst I'm here, did anyone tell the youths hiking in Israel that they should have carried rainproof gear? Our article's 'Equipment' section currently says they need to.  It's important to appreciate that people hiking in arid climates encounter quite different hazards and needs than those of us in cold, temperate climes. [[User:Nick Moyes|Nick Moyes]] ([[User talk:Nick Moyes|talk]]) 00:43, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
+:::We could show [[:File:Crib Goch, Snowdonia, Wales - August 2007.jpg|this photo of Crib Goch]]. It's a Featured Picture (which I prefer to show in articles), and also shows hikers on the arete. Alternatively, per Nick, we could show the risk due to animals with [[:File:Black Bear on cables.jpg|this photo]] of a bear trying to steal hikers' gear. I rather like that one. — [[User:Hike395|hike395]] ([[User talk:Hike395|talk]]) 15:01, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
+::::Nice picture, but really not OK for this article at all, as that route is not a hiking route - it's an exposed scramble, impossible to get on from the Pen-y-Pass end without a short but challenging scrambling move of c.10m, then a considerable amount of exposed scrambling elsewhere along it. Please don't be tempted to include any pics of that route on this page as it's too off-topic (I'd rather have the bear!). Quite a few people come to grief thinking the Crib Goch ridge is just an exposed walk/hike; I remember soloing a winter route on Snowdon's Trinity face back in Feb 1986, descending via the icy Crib Goch ridge, only to learn that the day previously the president of the [[Alpine Club (UK)]] had fallen to his death whilst making the same traverse. But getting back on topic: I've spent the afternoon poring over maps and images to locate the Austrian ridge route added by {{u|Hike395}} in [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Hiking&type=revision&diff=997095280&oldid=997040318&diffmode=sourcethis diff]. I've updated the image description on Commons and can confirm it's the [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brunnenkogelhaus Rotkogel (2894m)] - see also [https://www.bergwelten.com/map/2d/t/enwiki/w/15490#13.9/46.94473/11.05537] and, apart from steel cables for protection in one short section, there's no obvious scrambling on that route, so I'm quite OK with it's use here. [[User:Nick Moyes|Nick Moyes]] ([[User talk:Nick Moyes|talk]]) 16:50, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
+Great choice [[User:Hike395|hike395]]. No cables in UK! It is great to get agreement here. [[User:Rwood128|Rwood128]] ([[User talk:Rwood128|talk]]) 19:15, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
+==Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment==
+[[File:Sciences humaines.svg|40px]] This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between <span class="mw-formatted-date" title="2019-08-26">26 August 2019</span> and <span class="mw-formatted-date" title="2019-12-11">11 December 2019</span>. Further details are available [[Wikipedia:Wiki_Ed/University_of_Arizona/Linguistics_in_the_Digital_Age_(Fall_2019)|on the course page]]. Student editor(s): [[User:Hanna wietsma|Hanna wietsma]].
+{{small|Above undated message substituted from [[Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment]] by [[User:PrimeBOT|PrimeBOT]] ([[User talk:PrimeBOT|talk]]) 23:27, 16 January 2022 (UTC)}}