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== "Extensions and theming" section ==
== The split with the GNU project needs a date ==


The extensions api and the new theming api should be mentioned. [[User:Wiktorpyk|Wiktorpyk]] ([[User talk:Wiktorpyk|talk]]) 12:26, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
{{ping|Lionirdeadman}} And here we are. {{Diff|GNOME|1044950469|1044769860|Your last revert|diffonly=yes}} argues that it is only a detail that the split with the GNU project has been formalized in 2021 – since the relationship between GNOME and GNU was allegedly cold already – and because of that Wikipedia should not document the year when the split formally happened. My arguments against your positions are the following:

# The split has still been formalized in 2021
# We are dealing with two parties here, and while it might have been in the GNOME Foundation's mind already ten years ago (or event twenty years ago for what matters) that they did not want to be part of the GNU project anymore, we cannot say the same about the GNU project, which as far as I know has always considered GNOME as a GNU project until 2021 – and they are not to blame, GNU started the GNOME project and nobody told them anything before this year
# The GNOME ''Foundation'' and the GNOME ''community'' are two different things. And while the former might have distanced itself from the GNU project already long ago, a large part of the community had absolutely no idea and has learned about it only recently; and by reading what GNOME stated on their various websites even newcomers would just consider GNOME as a GNU project until 2021
# I am one of those who was convinced that GNOME was a GNU project – because that's what they have always written – until I saw that the Executive Director of the GNOME Foundation signed (wrote?) [https://rms-open-letter.github.io/ a very weird letter against Stallman] – where the latter is accused of horrible things which are insinuated but not reported, so I still don't know what Stallman is guilty of – and started to tweet things against the GNU project out of the blue ([https://mobile.twitter.com/gnome/status/1382361929981825024 #1], [https://twitter.com/nmcgovern/status/1382360647464316931 #2])
# If this had been a divorce between two persons, would Wikipedia mention the date when the first fights started to appear or the date when the divorce was formalized?

We need to bring back the year. --[[Special:Contributions/89.242.98.153|89.242.98.153]] ([[User talk:89.242.98.153|talk]]) 03:21, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

:I just want to clarify that I don't think that Wikipedia shouldn't document the year that it was brought to the public but rather that this date alone would bring misinterpretations. My argument is more so centered around the fact that GNOME was *never* part of the GNU Project as they have never used GNU infrastructure, made their own governance structure, never were under GNU governance and never gave copyright to the FSF as all other GNU Projects have to do to my knowledge.
:# The "split" was simply made more clear because the FSF has refused to remove GNOME from their list of software.
:# GNU did not start the GNOME Project. Frederico Mena and Miguel De Icaza started the GNOME Project, neither of which are part of GNU and have never been as far as I know. De Icaza even founded Ximian/Helix Code in 1999 for GNOME development before GNOME Foundation was founded in 2000. Notice that neither of these were ever made with intent to be part of GNU. Furthermore, a look at the announcement from [https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gtk-list/1997-August/msg00123.html 1997] shows no mention of being part of GNU Project.
:# I think that for the purposes of the GNOME page, trying to show community opinions is not the right way, it would become quite difficult to parse if we started doing that therefore official positions from GNOME Project should be taken instead. While I agree that websites from GNOME did not reflect the reality of the situation, I believe that these are errors over time.
:# GNOME Foundation has had issues with GNU Project for a much longer time, I'm not going to talk about the Open Letter as it is not relevant.
:# I think a problem with trying to give a date is that this is ambiguous in meaning (considering that they did not use GNU infra, governance or do copyright assignment) and a lot of discussions have been done mostly outside of the public view which makes it hard to cite.
:
:I will bring up these things to people who know better than myself as to try to clarify this. Note that this is written with my personal knowledge of the situation so I may have done mistakes. [[User:Lionirdeadman|- Lionirdeadman]] ([[User talk:Lionirdeadman|talk]]) 16:22, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
::{{ping|Lionirdeadman}}
::* {{tq|My argument is more so centered around the fact that GNOME was *never* part of the GNU Project as they have never used GNU infrastructure, made their own governance structure, never were under GNU governance never gave copyright to the FSF as all other GNU Projects have to do to my knowledge.}} That is not a good argument. Most GNU projects belong simply spiritually to GNU, and both developers and the core of GNU hackers are happy with it; these present themselves still as GNU projects (see [[GIMP]], [[Denemo]], etc.) – GNOME used to be one of them. And even the most involved projects have their independence (see [[GCC]], [[GNUnet]], [[GNU Guix]]). That is exactly one of the differences with the GNOME Foundation; while the latter is a foundation the former is an informal federation of hackers. There is a formal foundation also behind the GNU project, but it is not called "The GNU Foundation", as in GNOME, it is called "Free Software Foundation". And the reason is very simple: its goal is not the GNU project but free software (and lately mostly free hardware, like mobile phones). There is of course some sort of "GNU infrastructure" too, but talking about "the GNU infrastructure" is way more vague than talking about the GNOME infrastructure. Also many GNU projects don't ask for the giveaway of the copyright, but apply a shared copyright (see GNUnet).
::* {{tq|The "split" was simply made more clear because the FSF has refused to remove GNOME from their list of software.}} Asking to remove GNOME from the list of GNU software (while GNOME was still presenting itself as a GNU project) ''was already a formal split''. So the split pre-dates a bit the tweets I quoted, and happened in that very moment in which GNOME asked to be removed from the GNU projects – if I am not wrong we are still talking about 2021.
::* {{tq|GNU did not start the GNOME Project. Frederico Mena and Miguel De Icaza started the GNOME Project}} That is exactly how GNU projects begin. Someone writes a program (for themselves, a friend, the spouse, or whatever), and then, ''when it is already mature'', [https://www.gnu.org/help/evaluation.html applies] to be listed among the GNU packages. Often GNU refuses to accept software. Other times they accept it. Who applied on behalf of GNOME, that I have no idea. What I know is that it was GNOME more than GNU the one who cared the most to be considered as a GNU project, at least for many of the early years.
::* {{tq|I think that for the purposes of the GNOME page, trying to show community opinions is not the right way.}} We don't have to show community opinions, but only formal facts.
::* {{tq|GNOME Foundation has had issues with GNU Project for a much longer time}} They didn't divorce for a long time either. A formal act is still a formal act. Without the last events it was perfectly possible to imagine – like two years ago – that these issues would be solved over time and the two parties would find again a comomn goal. Now that is definitely harder to imagine. So something did happen in 2021.
::* {{tq|I think a problem with trying to give a date is that this is ambiguous in meaning and a lot of discussions have been done mostly outside of the public view which makes it hard to cite.}} I have no doubts, every breakup needs its time of reflection. But being a private discussion is not just an insignificant detail, it is one of the decisive points here. The public (and GNU, and GNOME itself) still referred to GNOME as a GNU project until things have become formal very recently.
::* {{tq|(considering that they did not use GNU infra, governance or do copyright assignment)}} See my previous answers.
:: --[[User:Grufo|Grufo]] ([[User talk:Grufo|talk]]) 17:38, 18 September 2021 (UTC) - a.k.a. the previous IP address
:: EDIT: I forgot to answer this...
:: {{tq|Furthermore, a look at the announcement from [https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gtk-list/1997-August/msg00123.html 1997] shows no mention of being part of GNU Project.}} Quoting from that email:
::# "The GNOME Desktop project (GNU Network Object Model Environment)"
::# "As most GNU software, GNOME application code will be released under the GNU GPL. GNOME specific libraries will be released under the terms of the GNU LGPL."
:: Furthermore, this is from the old "AboutGnome":
:: {{quote|When the GNU project was ready for a desktop, it launched two parallel projects : one of them was called Harmony, a project to develop a free software replacement for the proprietary parts of KDE and the other was GNOME, a project headed by Miguel de Icaza and Federico Mena to develop a free software desktop for the GNU operating system.|https://wiki.gnome.org/GnomeWeb/WgoAbout/History#Alternate_Version%3A_Copied_from_AboutGnome}}
:: --[[User:Grufo|Grufo]] ([[User talk:Grufo|talk]]) 19:04, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
:::As there are no news about this topic I am going to restore the date. --[[User:Grufo|Grufo]] ([[User talk:Grufo|talk]]) 19:29, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
::::It's hard to pinpoint a precise date for the Gnu\Gnome 'break up' because there wasn't a proper 'public statement' or anything official. And, [https://twitter.com/nmcgovern/status/1382361196607766528 according to Gnome's executive director], they've been asking GNU to remove Gnome's name from their website since 2019. So this 'break up' was something that happened slowly and under the hood. - <code>[[User:Daveout|'''Daveout''']]</code><small>[[User talk:Daveout|<span style="color:#333b40">(talk)</span>]]</small> 02:44, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
:::::{{Ping|Daveout}} {{tq|there wasn't a proper 'public statement' or anything official}} So we have to assume that they are still part of the GNU project? I don't understand, either you are in or you are out. In 2019 GNOME was in, according to both what the GNU project stated and ''the GNOME project itself stated''. After 2019 it is not very clear to me what happened, but apparently a lot of fights. But even imagining it as the most peaceful breakup in the world, 1) GNOME asks GNU to remove itself from the list of GNU projects 2) GNU examines the situation 3) Both parties officialize the split. #1, #2 and #3 took their time, and this time ended in 2021. So I do not understand why it is a problem to just report the facts. We need to fix this and be precise. --[[User:Grufo|Grufo]] ([[User talk:Grufo|talk]]) 02:15, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
::::::{{re|Grufo}} While it's probably not a good idea to simply say that gnome stopped being part of gnu in 2021, we could alternatively say that Gnome's [[Executive director|ED]] publicly twitted, in 2021, that Gnome wasn't part of Gnu (may look like the same thing but it isn't); and we could also say that gnome's name was subsequently removed from the list of gnu packages in 2021. Those are probably the most accurate things we can say considering the limited sources we have. - <code>[[User:Daveout|'''Daveout''']]</code><small>[[User talk:Daveout|<span style="color:#333b40">(talk)</span>]]</small> 03:03, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
::::::: That might be the way to go. --[[User:Grufo|Grufo]] ([[User talk:Grufo|talk]]) 03:45, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

{{Ping|Daveout}} GNOME stated in various parts of their documentation until few weeks ago "GNOME is free software and part of the GNU Project". Now they removed it, and we are all happy with whatever they want to do. I have the impression however that your edits go in the direction of erasing ''the memory'' of these kind of statements. They did not erase "mentions of any link to GNU", as you wrote, they erased the condition of ''belonging'' to the GNU project. That "motto" (or however you want to call it) has been ubiquitous in GNOME's code for years. May I ask you why you insist changing my edits in this direction? The impression I get is that the sentence "GNOME is part of the GNU Project" must appear as "never pronounced" according to you. --[[User:Grufo|Grufo]] ([[User talk:Grufo|talk]]) 18:46, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

:{{Ping|Grufo}} You're having the wrong impression, that's all. I'm only interested in being as accurate as possible. Gnome was part of Gnu and it no longer is. That's it. I never once tried to imply that Gnome was never part of Gnu. In reality, I've been protecting that fact from those who tried to erase it. (see [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1017287492?diffmode=source here] and [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1017906239?diffmode=source here] for example). I also looked for and added sources that stated that Gnome was once part of Gnu ([https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1017831623?diffmode=source here] Those sources weren't there before I adeed them). The text you're trying to add simply fails [[WP:OR]]. (And by the way, unlike other ppl, I wasn't "happy" with Gnome's decision to join an angry mob in order to demonize and harass Stallman based mostly on bad faith mischaracterizations. But my personal opinions aren't relevant here.) See ya. - <code>[[User:Daveout|'''Daveout''']]</code><small>[[User talk:Daveout|<span style="color:#333b40">(talk)</span>]]</small> 20:03, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

::{{Re|Daveout}} Yeah, that story is really sad – and that letter is horrifying, it looks like a sort of vendetta clearly written with the explicit intention of hurting a person in his core beliefs. But anyway, the very fact that some people in the GNOME Foundation asked for the resignation of Stallman as the head of the GNU project per se implies the involvement in the GNU project until recently – otherwise it would be as if the UK, after proclaiming the Brexit, started to make requests about who should be the president of the EU parliament. And I believe that we should just document the truth. [[User:Grufo|Grufo]] ([[User talk:Grufo|talk]]) 21:04, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

::: Actually, a lot of people who were never associated with GNU or the FSF asked for Stallman's head in that letter. - <code>[[User:Daveout|'''Daveout''']]</code><small>[[User talk:Daveout|<span style="color:#333b40">(talk)</span>]]</small> 21:12, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
:::: I have no doubts about that too (as I wouldn't be surprised if the UK made requests about the president of the EU parliament). But besides Stallman, who can defend himself (well, kinda…), the most horrifying thing of that letter is this sentence “We urge those in a position to do so to [...] refuse to contribute to projects related to the FSF” – which basically means “Do not contribute to GNU packages” – which gratuitously throws a mountain of sh*t onto the shoulders of all GNU developers, who did nothing else than writing amazing software in their free time. I better stop here, or I will end up uninstalling GNOME. [[User:Grufo|Grufo]] ([[User talk:Grufo|talk]]) 22:11, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 12:26, 23 December 2024

Former good articleGNOME was one of the Engineering and technology good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
May 3, 2006Good article nomineeListed
November 14, 2006Peer reviewReviewed
November 27, 2008Good article reassessmentDelisted
December 1, 2010Peer reviewReviewed
Current status: Delisted good article

"Extensions and theming" section

[edit]

The extensions api and the new theming api should be mentioned. Wiktorpyk (talk) 12:26, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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