Talk:Religion in Israel: Difference between revisions
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{{dyktalk|12 October|2005|entry=... that '''[[Religion in Israel|religious identity in Israel]]''' for [[Jew]]s differs strikingly from that recognized in the [[Jewish diaspora]]?}} |
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{{dyktalk|12 October|2005|entry=... that '''[[Religion in Israel|religious identity in Israel]]''' for [[Jew]]s differs strikingly from that recognized in the [[Jewish diaspora]]?}} |
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How many subbotniki are living in Israel? Have they contact with Sabbat-Adventists? SimonMayer. |
How many subbotniki are living in Israel? Have they contact with Sabbat-Adventists? SimonMayer. |
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== Israel explicitly a religiously Jewish state? == |
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The assertion that Israeli is religiously a Jewish state, in addition to ethnically, is incorrect. Israel has no official religion. Rather, it defines itself as the national home of the Jewish people. Israel's criteria for Jewish identity for the purposes of immigration differs from Jewish law and has nothing to do with religious beliefs. See link below. |
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http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/talking/11_Democracy.html |
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Page not found🤔 [[User:Nlivataye|Nlivataye]] ([[User talk:Nlivataye|talk]]) 12:10, 4 October 2020 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 November 2024 == |
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== RfC: Pie chart == |
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{{closed rfc top|1=There is a narrow margin for converting the pie chart to the "Pew" version listed below. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 17:09, 21 May 2020 (UTC)}} |
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Proposal to remove the pie chart in the opening section of the article because it is confusing and does not properly reflect beliefs of secular and/or Atheist Jewish Israelis. (One can oppose by voting Keep): 11:01, 16 February 2020 (UTC) |
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*'''Remove''' [[User:IZAK|IZAK]] ([[User talk:IZAK|talk]]) 20:51, 10 February 2020 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''' as I argued above. It makes sense to set the stage by showing how many Jews, Arabs and others live in Israel, before going into detail about each of those groups. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 21:33, 10 February 2020 (UTC) |
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::Valid point, however "how many Jews live in Israel" does not in any way indicate if they are religious or not. And as we know about half of Israeli Jews are ''Chiloni'' (secular) with a good chunk being ''Sonei Das'' (haters of religion), a left-over from the days of religion-hating Bolshevism. The pie should therefore clarify numbers of '''Jews''' and not refer to their "religion" (since many don't have any really) or the non-existent "Judaism" of so many. [[User:IZAK|IZAK]] ([[User talk:IZAK|talk]]) 02:01, 11 February 2020 (UTC) |
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:::It doesn't matter if a person is religious or not. I mean, it may matter to {{u|IZAK}} or {{u|Debresser}}. But that would be [[WP:OR|original research]]. The question is whether a person has renounced their identity as a Jew. If a Jewish person has not said "I am not a Jew" then they are religious, albeit to a limited extent. We don't engage in original research at Wikipedia. At Wikipedia we don't deem Jews who light candles, attend synagogue, and [[Jewish prayer|daven]]—as being religious. And Jews who eat pork and drive on Shabbos—as being not religious. You are all involved in "drawing lines". {{u|Feminist}} writes {{tq|"As for those in between, we should either place them in a separate slice, combine them with Jewish atheists, combine them with religious Jews, or draw a line somewhere within the spectrum dividing who we consider to be religious or not."}} No, we should do nothing of the sort. Reliable sources either assert something or do not assert something. Do we have reliable sources telling us a percentage of Jews considered religious and a percentage of Jews considered nonreligious? Stating those percentages, with attribution to the specific source, may be acceptable. But this isn't "The Jewish Religion 101" as presented to you by a few Wikipedia editors. It would be impractical to get any meaningful information breaking down any Jewish population into those that are religious, those that are not religious, and those that are semi-religious, but I'm sure some reliable sources would attempt to do just that. With attribution we can present the findings of such sources. Such "information" is highly subjective and subject to being skewed by editorializing inherent in a given source's political leanings. Therefore we should treat such "information" skeptically and only with [[WP:ATT|attribution]]. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 03:42, 11 February 2020 (UTC) |
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::::{{ping|Bus stop}} It is not OR to state that ''secular (chiloni) Israelis are secular (chiloni)''. The numbers on the pie are too sweeping and you do not wait for someone to say "I am not a Jew" to deem them to be secular. If anything, saying "I am not a Jew" borders on [[Apostasy in Judaism]]. [[User:IZAK|IZAK]] ([[User talk:IZAK|talk]]) 19:25, 11 February 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::{{u|IZAK}}—many Jews are for instance not Shomer Shabbos but go to synagogue on Yom Kippur. Many Jews serve food that is not kosher at Bar Mitzvah celebrations. Many Jews are not particularly religious but have annual Passover meals including matzoh and [[Manischewitz]]. No source can be realistically expected to evaluate all factors to determine if these people are "religious" or not. I have my opinions and every other individual has their opinions about such things. I am considering such opinions tantamount to original research if we try to build such opinions into the article. As for the pie chart, it was not my primary concern in my participation in the [[Talk:Religion in Israel#Should nonreligious Israelis be marked as religious?|"Should nonreligious Israelis be marked as religious"]] section of this page. I am opposed to the subtle distinctions that would be called for in order to distinguish between religious and nonreligious Israelis—or any other population of Jews for that matter. But the pie chart I don't find particularly problematic. It merely estimates percentages of Jews, Arabs, and "other". I don't feel strongly one way or the other about the pie chart currently in the article, but ultimately I don't find it problematic. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 20:21, 11 February 2020 (UTC) |
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::::::{{ping|Bus stop}} You are only partially right, but you cannot deny that a vast group of Israelis vehemently oppose being labelled as "religious/dati/charedi/mesorati" in any way shape size or form. Israel's Jews are a large enough group in our times to break them down into component elements of religiosity or anti-religiosity or non-religiosity. Don't be nervous, nothing "bad" will come out of being objective. It is a dream and fallacy to call most of Israel's Jews "religious" when in fact anywhere from 250,000 to 1,000,000 of so-called called Israeli Jews are non-Halachic Jews mostly from the former Soviet Union and to call them "religious" is a joke and an insult to intelligence. [[User:IZAK|IZAK]] ([[User talk:IZAK|talk]]) 23:05, 11 February 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::::{{u|IZAK}}—the article already says [[Religion in Israel#Secular-traditional spectrum|"In 2007, a poll by the Israeli Democracy Institute found that 27% of Israeli Jews say that they keep the Sabbath, while 53% said they do not keep it at all"]]. I think that should be sufficient. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 01:03, 12 February 2020 (UTC) |
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*<s>'''Remove'''</s>; I think having this singular pie chart on top of this article would inevitably cause readers to make comparisons with other "Religion in [foo]" articles without appreciating the nuances of the term "religion" in its Israeli context. I can support having multiple charts if the information is verifiable. [[User talk:Feminist|feminist]] ([[User talk:Feminist#top|talk]]) 05:15, 11 February 2020 (UTC) |
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**'''Replace''' with the [[#Pew]] chart below, which resolves my concern. [[User talk:Feminist|feminist]] ([[User talk:Feminist#top|talk]]) 06:13, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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*'''Remove''' I think that Bus stop has already made an excellent argument about the pitfalls of OR in this specific situation. We have information about various different measurements of religious identity in the context of Israel, and this can be expressed in prose in the article. We do not, at least at this time, appear to have a reliable-source-approved way of condensing all of this information into a pie chart that we can place in infobox position. <sub>signed, </sub>[[User:Rosguill|'''''Rosguill''''']] <sup>[[User talk:Rosguill|''talk'']]</sup> 05:31, 11 February 2020 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep'''. I think the chart should be kept. It gives a rough approximation of identities by proportion. It is produced by the "Israel Central Bureau of Statistics" which sounds fairly official to me, but in all honesty I don't know what it is about. The pie chart is not involved in the breaking down of identities by level of religiosity. In this respect it is non-problematic. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 15:28, 11 February 2020 (UTC) |
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*I'm making this an RfC because participation has stagnated here. [[User talk:Feminist|feminist]] ([[User talk:Feminist#top|talk]]) 11:01, 16 February 2020 (UTC) |
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*'''Remove''' - clearly misleading to use an ethnicity pie chart as a lead image on religion page.--[[User:Staberinde|Staberinde]] ([[User talk:Staberinde|talk]]) 17:04, 18 February 2020 (UTC) |
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::Of course the pie-chart is not an {{tq|"ethnicity pie chart"}}, {{u|Staberinde}}. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 22:45, 18 February 2020 (UTC) |
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:::Well, it is not a religion pie chart either, as it just happens that "Arab" is not a religion. The third option left is this being just meaningless nonsense.--[[User:Staberinde|Staberinde]] ([[User talk:Staberinde|talk]]) 19:36, 19 February 2020 (UTC) |
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::::It is a chart showing identities. Those identities correlate to religions. Are those correlations exact? Probably not. That Arab is not a religion is not particularly problematic because included in Arabs are [[Religion in Israel|"Muslims, Christians and Druze]]. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 20:44, 19 February 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::There are Arab Christians, Arab Jews etc. Not all Arabs are muslims.--[[User:SharabSalam|SharʿabSalam▼]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 20:50, 19 February 2020 (UTC) |
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::::::As I said, the correlations are not exact. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 21:02, 19 February 2020 (UTC) |
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*<s><s>'''Remove'''</s> '''Replace''' with another one about religion. I will propose one. <s>unless it become only about religion</s>. I agree, <s>Its</s> the current one is misleading. Its mixing ethnicities with religion.</s>--[[User:SharabSalam|SharʿabSalam▼]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 20:33, 19 February 2020 (UTC) |
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::You say {{tq|"unless it become only about religion"}}. What does that mean? Can you clarify? What would a pie chart look like if it were {{tq|"only about religion"}}? [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 20:44, 19 February 2020 (UTC) |
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:::Is this really unclear?--[[User:SharabSalam|SharʿabSalam▼]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 20:50, 19 February 2020 (UTC) |
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::::SharabSalam—if it were {{tq|"only about religion"}}, what would it show? I'm sorry this is such a difficult question. Clearly we are not going to delve into the personal lives of people. All an article like this can do is break populations down into rough approximations of religious affiliations. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 21:02, 19 February 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::{{U|Bus stop}}, It's not a difficult question!. If it's about religion then it should say something like, 23% Islam — 30% Hinduism — 20% Judaism — 12% Baha'i faith etc.--[[User:SharabSalam|SharʿabSalam▼]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 21:56, 19 February 2020 (UTC) |
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*'''Replace''' with a chart that is actually about religion, not ethnicity. <span style="font-family: serif; letter-spacing: 0.1em">– [[User:Finnusertop|Finnusertop]]</span> ([[User talk:Finnusertop|talk]] ⋅ [[Special:Contributions/Finnusertop|contribs]]) 17:58, 20 February 2020 (UTC) |
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::Finnusertop—if you are saying the current chart is primarily about ethnicity, I disagree—it is about ethnicity, identity, and religion. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 20:29, 20 February 2020 (UTC) |
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:::It should be only about religion though.-[[User:SharabSalam|SharʿabSalam▼]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 00:24, 21 February 2020 (UTC) |
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::::I agree with {{u|SharabSalam}}. Only a chart that is exclusively about religion is lead-worthy. Other aspects such as ethnicity and identity and their relation to religion should be covered, of course, but not by the topmost chart in the lead that is supposed to give an at-a-glance picture about the distribution of different religions in Israel. <span style="font-family: serif; letter-spacing: 0.1em">– [[User:Finnusertop|Finnusertop]]</span> ([[User talk:Finnusertop|talk]] ⋅ [[Special:Contributions/Finnusertop|contribs]]) 18:42, 21 February 2020 (UTC) |
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*<s>'''Remove''' per the arguments above. I can't find an official source that gives us the amount of Jews, Muslims and Druze. Israeli caucus gives the percentage of national/ethnic groups not religious groups.--[[User:SharabSalam|SharʿabSalam▼]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 01:37, 21 February 2020 (UTC)</s> |
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* '''Replace''' with [[#Pew|this chart]]. I think we need a chart, we have a chart in almost all of "Religion in 'countery'" articles. We don't go with speculation, we go with what reliable sources say.--[[User:SharabSalam|SharʿabSalam▼]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 19:01, 21 February 2020 (UTC) |
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::{{u|SharabSalam}}—you say {{tq|"we have a chart in almost all of "Religion in 'countery'" articles"}}. In fact no other "Religion in country" article singles out one of several religions to break down that religious group for percentage religious and percentage not religious. It can be done at this, the [[Religion in Israel]] article, but only in the proper section, the [[Religion in Israel#Judaism|Judaism]] section, and only while properly enumerating the religious groups pertaining to Judaism according to reliable sources—Hiloni, Masorti, Dati, and Haredi. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 05:35, 25 February 2020 (UTC) |
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:::{{U|Bus stop}}, how about [[Religion in Australia]]? Just a random example. Only Christians are divided.--[[User:SharabSalam|SharʿabSalam▼]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 05:41, 25 February 2020 (UTC) |
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::::How do you figure that the [[Religion in Australia]] article distinguishes between religious and nonreligious Christians, {{u|SharabSalam}}? [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 06:07, 25 February 2020 (UTC) |
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* '''Replace''' with either of the 2016 Pew charts. In an article about religion in Israel, the chart should actually show religious affiliation, rather than ethnic affiliation. Lumping [[Secular Jews]] in with [[Judaism]] clearly minimizes the former group, falsely giving the impression that there are more people practicing Judaism than in reality. I agree with the arguments made by [[User:SharabSalam|SharabSalam]], [[User:feminist|feminist]], and [[User:Finnusertop|Finnusertop]]. The current situation which minimizes a huge proportion of Israelis is unacceptable. [[User:BirdValiant|BirdValiant]] ([[User talk:BirdValiant|talk]]) 19:47, 3 March 2020 (UTC) |
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=== A chart that is about religion === |
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{{Archive top|The source says "Arabs" not "Muslims", so this chart is not about religion.--[[User:SharabSalam|SharʿabSalam▼]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 01:33, 21 February 2020 (UTC)}} |
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{{Pie chart |
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|thumb = right |
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|caption = Religion in Israel in 2019<ref name="population_stat2019">{{cite report|url=https://www.cbs.gov.il/he/mediarelease/DocLib/2019/134/11_19_134b.pdf|title=Israel's Independence Day 2019|date=6 May 2019|publisher=Israel Central Bureau of Statistics|access-date=7 May 2019}}</ref> |
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|label1 = [[Judaism]] |
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|value1 = 74.2 |
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|color1 = DarkBlue |
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|label2 = [[Islam in Israel|Islam]] |
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|value2 = 17.8 |
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|color2 = Green |
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|label3 = [[Christianity]] |
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|value3 = 2.0 |
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|color3 = gray |
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|label4 = [[Druzism]] |
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|value4 = 1.6 |
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|color4 = red |
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|label5 = Others (including [[Samaritanism]], [[Baha'iism]], and [[irreligious]] people) |
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|value5 = 4.4 |
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|color5 = Yellow |
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}} |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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I looked into what the article is saying the source is saying and here is what I found. Who support this pie chart?--[[User:SharabSalam|SharʿabSalam▼]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 22:22, 19 February 2020 (UTC) |
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* {{U|Staberinde}} I think this addresses your concerns?-[[User:SharabSalam|SharʿabSalam▼]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 22:26, 19 February 2020 (UTC) |
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*:This brings us back to square one, where individuals who are nationally classified as Jews but who profess atheism are lumped in with the Jewish population that does consider themselves to practice the religion. <sub>signed, </sub>[[User:Rosguill|'''''Rosguill''''']] <sup>[[User talk:Rosguill|''talk'']]</sup> 00:35, 21 February 2020 (UTC) |
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*::When the official caucus source says the number of people who identify as Jews we say what the source is saying. However, I cant verify what the source is saying because it isnt in English and I got the numbers from what this article says the source is saying. |
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*::This reminds me when some editors wanted to remove the religion parameter because they say people identify as Christians but they most likely dont believe in God, they are cultural Christians.[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Australia/Archive_20#RfC_dated_23_June_2019_-_Should_religion_be_removed_from_the_infobox?] |
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*::I wouldnt go with [[WP:CRYSTAL|speculations]], I would go with what the official caucus source is saying.-[[User:SharabSalam|SharʿabSalam▼]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 00:56, 21 February 2020 (UTC) |
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*:::I can read Hebrew: that source says 74.2% Jews, 20.9% Arabs, 4.8% other. The inclusion of the categories "Jew" and "Arab" side by side suggests that this is a national/ethnic survey, not a religious one. |
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*::: |
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*:::We also have have other reliable sources establishing that a non-trivial portion of Israelis are {{tq|convinced atheists}}. There isn't enough information in that source alone to create a new chart (especially since the source doesn't really attempt to answer the question of where to draw the line between "secular, but still Jewish religiously" and "not identifying as part of the Jewish religion"), but there is enough information to establish that we shouldn't be listing the religiously Jewish population as being the size of the entire ethnically Jewish population <sub>signed, </sub>[[User:Rosguill|'''''Rosguill''''']] <sup>[[User talk:Rosguill|''talk'']]</sup> 01:15, 21 February 2020 (UTC) |
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*:::: Since the source actually says "Arab", I am archiving this. I based my numbers from what this article says.--[[User:SharabSalam|SharʿabSalam▼]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 01:33, 21 February 2020 (UTC) |
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{{Archive bottom}} |
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==== Chart based on CIA World Factbook ==== |
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{{Pie chart |
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|thumb = right |
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|caption = Religion in Israel (2020)<ref>{{Cite web |title=Israel |work=The CIA World Factbook |publisher=CIA |date=7 February 2020 |access-date=21 February 2020 |url= https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/is.html }}</ref> |
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|label1 = [[Judaism]] |
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|value1 = 74.3 |
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|color1 = DarkBlue |
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|label2 = [[Islam in Israel|Islam]] |
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|value2 = 17.8 |
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|color2 = Green |
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|label3 = [[Christianity]] |
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|value3 = 1.9 |
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|color3 = gray |
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|label4 = [[Druzism]] |
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|value4 = 1.6 |
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|color4 = red |
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|label5 = Others |
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|value5 = 4.4 |
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|color5 = Yellow |
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}} |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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{{re|SharabSalam|Rosguill}} |
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How about something like this? It doesn't have to be based on an official census. It has to be based on reliable sources. We don't do speculation; reliable sources do what they are supposed to: reliable estimates. This source is reliable and explicitly about religion. <span style="font-family: serif; letter-spacing: 0.1em">– [[User:Finnusertop|Finnusertop]]</span> ([[User talk:Finnusertop|talk]] ⋅ [[Special:Contributions/Finnusertop|contribs]]) 18:52, 21 February 2020 (UTC) |
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:{{U|Finnusertop}}, I support this one.--[[User:SharabSalam|SharʿabSalam▼]] ([[User talk:SharabSalam|talk]]) 19:01, 21 February 2020 (UTC) |
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:{{u|Finnusertop}}, I don't think this resolves the issue originally raised by feminist, namely that we have RS asserting that some percentage of the ethnically-Jewish population is not religiously Jewish. The statistic reported here for the Jewish population is identical to the ethnic percentage. <sub>signed, </sub>[[User:Rosguill|'''''Rosguill''''']] <sup>[[User talk:Rosguill|''talk'']]</sup> 20:07, 21 February 2020 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose'''. Per Rosguill. [[User talk:Feminist|feminist]] ([[User talk:Feminist#top|talk]]) 06:11, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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===Pew=== |
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{{Pie chart |
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|thumb = right |
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|caption = Religion in Israel (2016)<ref>{{Cite web |title=Israel's Religiously Divided Society |work=Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project |date=8 March 2016 |access-date=23 February 2020 |url= https://www.pewforum.org/2016/03/08/israels-religiously-divided-society/ }}</ref> |
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|label1 = [[Judaism]] ([[Conservative Judaism|Masorti]], [[Dati]] and [[Haredi]]) |
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|value1 = 41 |
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|color1 = DarkBlue |
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|label2 = [[Hiloni|Secular Jews]] |
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|value2 = 40 |
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|color2 = LightBlue |
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|label3 = [[Islam in Israel|Islam]] |
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|value3 = 14 |
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|color3 = Green |
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|label4 = [[Christianity]] |
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|value4 = 2 |
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|color4 = gray |
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|label5 = [[Druzism]] |
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|value5 = 2 |
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|color5 = red |
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|label6 = Others and no religion |
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|value6 = 1 |
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|color6 = Yellow |
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}} |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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{{re|SharabSalam|Rosguill}} what about this? <span style="font-family: serif; letter-spacing: 0.1em">– [[User:Finnusertop|Finnusertop]]</span> ([[User talk:Finnusertop|talk]] ⋅ [[Special:Contributions/Finnusertop|contribs]]) 15:38, 23 February 2020 (UTC) |
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{{pinging|Feminist}} <span style="font-family: serif; letter-spacing: 0.1em">– [[User:Finnusertop|Finnusertop]]</span> ([[User talk:Finnusertop|talk]] ⋅ [[Special:Contributions/Finnusertop|contribs]]) 15:47, 23 February 2020 (UTC) |
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:{{u|Finnusertop}}, I think that graph addresses my main concern. My only remaining concern would be to check if there is disagreement between RS as to the breakdown of these demographic groups. <sub>signed, </sub>[[User:Rosguill|'''''Rosguill''''']] <sup>[[User talk:Rosguill|''talk'']]</sup> 17:33, 23 February 2020 (UTC) |
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::Why is this graph only distinguishing between religious Jews and non-religious Jews? Shouldn't it also be distinguishing between religious Muslims and non-religious Muslims? Shouldn't it also be distinguishing between religious Christians and non-religious Christians? Shouldn't it also be distinguishing between religious Druze and non-religious Druze? [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 19:25, 23 February 2020 (UTC) |
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:::{{re|Bus stop}} because that's how the source distinguishes them, and we should follow distinctions made in reliable sources. In the Israeli context, Secular Judaism (Hiloni) is a major religious category. "Non-religious Muslim/Christian/Druze" is not; that's why it wasn't polled. <span style="font-family: serif; letter-spacing: 0.1em">– [[User:Finnusertop|Finnusertop]]</span> ([[User talk:Finnusertop|talk]] ⋅ [[Special:Contributions/Finnusertop|contribs]]) 20:04, 23 February 2020 (UTC) |
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::::If you don't have sufficient information for the special sort of graph that you would like to make then don't attempt to make that special sort of graph. The graph should not be subjecting Jews to special scrutiny. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 20:48, 23 February 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::Huh? It's the source that makes this distinction for Jews and not others, not me. They are the experts who know what distinctions are most relevant. <span style="font-family: serif; letter-spacing: 0.1em">– [[User:Finnusertop|Finnusertop]]</span> ([[User talk:Finnusertop|talk]] ⋅ [[Special:Contributions/Finnusertop|contribs]]) 21:47, 23 February 2020 (UTC) |
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::::::The distinction might be relevant but it would not only be relevant for Jews, would it? [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 22:42, 23 February 2020 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' with the caveat that the chart should say (2014–2015) instead of (2016) because the source says the results were conducted during that period. Thanks for taking the time to locate this. It resolves my concern with considering all ethnic Jews as religious. I'm not seeing much concern with not further subdividing Muslims and Christians (such as by making Sunni/Shia or Protestant/Catholic distinctions). Firstly that would be [[WP:SYNTH]]; secondly neither Christians nor Muslims can be considered ethnic groups. [[User talk:Feminist|feminist]] ([[User talk:Feminist#top|talk]]) 06:11, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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::{{u|Feminist}}—you say {{tq|"neither Christians nor Muslims can be considered ethnic groups"}}. Why would Jews be an ethnic group but not Christians and Muslims? [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 17:28, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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:::I don't even have to respond to your question. [[User talk:Feminist|feminist]] ([[User talk:Feminist#top|talk]]) 17:31, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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::::You are mentioning Sunni and Shia, and Protestant and Catholic. Does this have anything to do with the subject we are discussing, {{u|Feminist}}? I think it is completely off-topic. You are concerned that some Jews are more religious and some Jews are less religious. Correct me if I am wrong about that. Sunni are neither more religious nor less religious than Shia, and Protestants are neither more religious nor less religious than Catholics. There are more religious people and less religious people among Muslims, Christians, and Jews. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 17:55, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::Alright, I'll bite. Jews and Arabs are the two predominant ethnic groups in Israel. Both Jews and Arabs are subject to the same level of scrutiny in the pie chart. Jews are divided into those who follow Judaism and secular Jews; Arabs are divided into those who follow Christianity and those who follow Islam. [[User talk:Feminist|feminist]] ([[User talk:Feminist#top|talk]]) 18:20, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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::::::{{u|Feminist}}—you are arguing to divide the total Jewish population into those who are more religious and those who are less religious. But we find more religious and less religious people among any grouping of a religious nature—be it Christians, Muslims, or Jews. Furthermore [[Arabs]] can be Muslim, Christian, Druze, or Baháʼí. Jews can only be Jews. Jews cannot be Christian and Jews cannot be Muslim. The religion of the [[Jews]] is Judaism. It is practiced to varying degrees among Jews. This is not dissimilar from the varying levels of religiosity found among Muslims and Christians. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 18:48, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::::{{tq|Jews can only be Jews}}––except that they can also be atheists, as identified by the ''Haaretz'' piece above, and other RS like the Pew survey indicate that it's pertinent to identify religious divisions within the Jewish population of Israel. As a side note, I'd be curious as to how individuals like [[Mordechai Vanunu]] are classified in Israeli censuses; here we have an Israeli Jew who converted to Christianity, but who at least in the eyes of the Mossad is still a Jew. <sub>signed, </sub>[[User:Rosguill|'''''Rosguill''''']] <sup>[[User talk:Rosguill|''talk'']]</sup> 19:27, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::::In the Pew study, everyone, including Jews, had the option to choose "other / no religion". Very few did. The Secular Jews category stands out very prominently in its place for those Jews who identity as less-than-religious. <span style="font-family: serif; letter-spacing: 0.1em">– [[User:Finnusertop|Finnusertop]]</span> ([[User talk:Finnusertop|talk]] ⋅ [[Special:Contributions/Finnusertop|contribs]]) 20:17, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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::::::::{{u|Finnusertop}}—is it your intention that the graph that you are suggesting be placed near the top of this article? And another question—do you have sources for the levels of religiosity among Muslims and Christians and Druze in Israel? I assume not, because you have not presented any. There is nothing wrong with the source. But it has to be used properly. You have not followed [https://www.pewforum.org/2016/03/08/israels-religiously-divided-society/ the source]. The source breaks down Jews into 4 segments of the "pie"—Hiloni, Masorti, Dati, and Haredi. You have not done that. And you have no sources for comparable information pertaining to Muslims and Christians and Druze. The chart that you are suggesting makes no sense for placement near the top of this article. This article is not titled "Spirituality of Jews in Israel" or some such name. It is "Religion in Israel". A properly constructed chart—including segments for Hiloni, Masorti, Dati, and Haredi—could conceivably be placed in the [[Religion in Israel#Judaism]] section. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 04:30, 25 February 2020 (UTC) |
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::::::::: I agree with Bus stop here. I oppose a chart that shows only Hiloni separate from the other three. The source divides Jews into Hiloni, Masorti, Dati and Haredi, and so should we. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 09:24, 25 February 2020 (UTC) |
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{{Pie chart |
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|thumb = right |
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|caption = Religion in Israel (2016)<ref>{{Cite web |title=Israel's Religiously Divided Society |work=Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project |date=8 March 2016 |access-date=23 February 2020 |url= https://www.pewforum.org/2016/03/08/israels-religiously-divided-society/ }}</ref> |
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|label1 = [[Haredi Judaism]] |
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|value1 = 8 |
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|color1 = MidnightBlue |
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|label2 = Dati [[Judaism]] |
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|value2 = 10 |
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|color2 = RoyalBlue |
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|label3 = [[Masorti Judaism]] |
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|value3 = 23 |
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|color3 = DeepSkyBlue |
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|label4 = [[Hiloni|Secular Jews]] |
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|value4 = 40 |
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|color4 = LightBlue |
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|label5 = [[Islam in Israel|Islam]] |
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|value5 = 14 |
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|color5 = Green |
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|label6 = [[Christianity in Israel|Christianity]] |
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|value6 = 2 |
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|color6 = gray |
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|label7 = [[Druzism]] |
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|value7 = 2 |
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|color7 = red |
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|label8 = Others and no religion |
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|value8 = 1 |
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|color8 = Yellow |
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}} |
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{{outdent|9}} |
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OK, how's this then? [[User talk:Feminist|feminist]] ([[User talk:Feminist#top|talk]]) 10:47, 25 February 2020 (UTC) |
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{{edit extended-protected|Religion in Israel|answered=yes}} |
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:You made a few deviations from [https://www.pewforum.org/2016/03/08/israels-religiously-divided-society/ the source material] that I find unacceptable, {{u|Feminist}}. The source does not say "Haredi Judaism". It says "Haredi". The source does not say "Dati Judaism". It says "Dati". The source does not say "Masorti Judaism". It says "Masorti". The source does not say "Secular Jews". It says "Hiloni". With those adjustments I think this pie-chart can go into the [[Religion in Israel#Judaism|Judaism]] section of this article. [[User:Bus stop|Bus stop]] ([[User talk:Bus stop|talk]]) 11:18, 25 February 2020 (UTC) |
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Add the missing citation after "since the 400 scholars who originally benefited from the exemption, had grown to 50,000": |
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::Stop. You have made your point clear enough, and your endless [[WP:BLUDGEON]]ing is testing my patience. I should have realized earlier that you will not support anything at the top of the article that attempts to split out secular Jews from those who are religious. Also, it's clear that this discussion is concerned with a replacement for the pie chart at the top of the article, not to a potential pie chart in a subsection. I'm sorry if I have hurt your feelings. |
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:: |
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::For the record: I support Finnusertop's chart based on the Pew source over the one I proposed, which I support as a second choice. Both Finnusertop and Rosguill have pointed out that secular Jews stand out particularly compared to other categories for Jews, and is most relevant in an article about religion and religions in a country. [[User talk:Feminist|feminist]] ([[User talk:Feminist#top|talk]]) 13:42, 25 February 2020 (UTC) |
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::: No reason to get personal. Bus stop made a very to the point point. Just change to "Haredi", "Dati", "Masorti" and "Hiloni", and that's all. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 14:21, 25 February 2020 (UTC) |
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::::I'm OK with such a change, but not with placing this under Judaism while leaving the current chart (or any chart that does not separate out secular Jews) intact in the lead section. The Pew source does say "Secular" for Hiloni, and I'd imagine "secular" is a much more common term than "hiloni" among English-language readers. [[User talk:Feminist|feminist]] ([[User talk:Feminist#top|talk]]) 15:17, 25 February 2020 (UTC) |
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::::: I think that we should use "Hiloni", since all the other terms are also in Hebrew. |
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::::: This chart should be in the lead section. After all, it has Christians and Arabs, so how could it fit in the Judaism section? [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 15:58, 25 February 2020 (UTC) |
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::::::I will support an arrangement that reads "[[Hiloni]] (Secular Jews)", but a counter-argument to such usage is [[WP:UE]]. [[User talk:Feminist|feminist]] ([[User talk:Feminist#top|talk]]) 17:12, 25 February 2020 (UTC) |
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::::::: Just like all three other terms are not explained, likewise "Hiloni" shouldn't be explained. The Wikipedia article is at [[Hiloni]] and in the chart it will be linked, so per standing policy we don't need to explain the term any further. Am I detecting vibes of a POV-reason here? [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 17:30, 25 February 2020 (UTC) |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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:To clarify the source: The survey asked people, "What is your current religion, if any?". The subcategories of Haredi, Dati, Masorti, and Hiloni are from those who answered "Judaism". --[[User:Yair rand|Yair rand]] ([[User talk:Yair rand|talk]]) 19:36, 6 April 2020 (UTC) |
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{{closed rfc bottom}} |
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===Post-close=== |
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:{{ping|Rosguill}}, {{ping|Finnusertop}}. Though the discussion is closed, I noticed the rather weird linking of "[[Masortim|Masorti]]" to [[Conservative Judaism]], and was drawn here, though I do mostly refrain from editing on this wikipedia. Several comments are necessary: ''[[Hiloni]]m'' are a rather strange group by Western standards. See [[Irreligion in Israel]]. They include everyone who isn't thoroughly observant, and the demographic borderline with the "Masortim" is very porous. A considerable number, some 25%, are fanatically religiouss. Roughly 20% (9% of all Jewish Israelis) are indeed atheists, out of 40% who don't believe in God. There are also Hilonim who identify specifically with Reform and Conservative Judaism. A large group (estimated at 10% of all Jews in Charles Liebman, ''Judaism and Jewishness in the Jewish State'', p. 16; that is, about a quarter of the Hilonim) wholly eschews Jewish identity, and regards itself as Israeli and not Jewish. Anyway, to quote Yaacov Yadgar (''Israel's Jewish Identity Crisis: State and Politics in the Middle East'', p. 71), "Hiloni" is a ''problematic, both linguistically and practically, translation of "secular".'' Other scholars made the same point. Likewise, the comments above claiming they are "nationally" but not "religiously" Jewish, are quite ill-founded. Religion is strongly embedded in Israeli national identity, as Yadgar's book heavily dwells upon. Anyway, I'd recommend rendering ''Hiloni'' as such, and not as "secular"; and also, either all the four different Jewish sub-groups should be represented on the pie chart, as in the PEW chart, or have only one for all togehter. Separating the Hilonim from the rest is problematic. [[User:AddMore-III|AddMore-III]] ([[User talk:AddMore-III|talk]]) 21:44, 6 August 2020 (UTC) |
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::Given that the Pew source consistently breaks down the categories as Hiloni, Masorti, Dati and Haredi I think that splitting out the categories that way ourselves would be appropriate. <sub>signed, </sub>[[User:Rosguill|'''''Rosguill''''']] <sup>[[User talk:Rosguill|''talk'']]</sup> 01:19, 7 August 2020 (UTC) |
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::{{re|AddMore-III}} I agree with {{u|Rosguill}}, the link should go to Hiloni, because that's what the source says. However, it was my mistake to make it a piped link in the proposal that reads "Secular Jews", because that can be understood in the wider sense (and we have a separate article for that topic: [[Jewish secularism]]). It should say "Hiloni" or "Hiloni (Secular Jews)". Many pointed this out in the discussion, but it was closed with the option that says "Secular Jews". This should be fixed now. <span style="font-family: serif; letter-spacing: 0.1em">– [[User:Finnusertop|Finnusertop]]</span> ([[User talk:Finnusertop|talk]] ⋅ [[Special:Contributions/Finnusertop|contribs]]) 06:55, 7 August 2020 (UTC) |
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:::BTW, "secular Jews" is a vague term that may apply to anything, [[Jewish secularism]] is in a bad shape today, and the ''Hiloni'' are a tribe unto themselves. [[User:AddMore-III|AddMore-III]] ([[User talk:AddMore-III|talk]]) 09:38, 7 August 2020 (UTC) |
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{{cite web |title=A Framework for Ultra-Orthodox Conscription |url=https://en.idi.org.il/publications/5193 |publisher=The Israel Democracy Institute |date=2013}} [[User:Zlmark|Zlmark]] ([[User talk:Zlmark|talk]]) 09:07, 7 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== The article "religion in Israel" in misleading == |
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:{{done}} [[User:Thebiguglyalien|<span style="color:#324717">The</span><span style="color:#45631f">big</span><span style="color:#547826">ugly</span><span style="color:#68942f">alien</span>]] ([[User talk:Thebiguglyalien|<span style="color:sienna">talk</span>]]) 19:32, 30 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 December 2024 == |
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As someone who lives in Israel, the article present misinformation stating 1% is non-religious. I think, after watching other talks, that the authors of the article are confused between Jewish as ethnicity and Jewish as a religion. If someone says he is a jew that does not necessarily mean he is religious for the same reason someone says he is a Chinese does not necessarily mean he is religious. The word jew is ambiguous, I was in a school where being non-religious was the default and everyone would say they are Jewish because of their parent's ethnicity, not their beliefs. |
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{{edit extended-protected|Religion in Israel|answered=no}} |
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I believe it is supposed to be ~20% non-religious and ~9% atheists live in Israel (this from some statistics I saw but you can research it further). I can confirm there is a lot of non-religious people in Israel from my experience and is probably higher than 20% now, but 1% is just impossible and presenting misinformation. |
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Data for 2021 has been published and updated, and is publicly available at https://www.cbs.gov.il/he/publications/doclib/2022/2.shnatonpopulation/st02_02.pdf |
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Please update the statistics [[User:Randomp4rson|Randomp4rson]] ([[User talk:Randomp4rson|talk]]) 12:47, 27 December 2024 (UTC) |
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Thank you, |
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an atheist Jew who lives in Israel. <!-- Template:Unsigned -->{{small|1=<span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Itay Levi|Itay Levi]] ([[User talk:Itay Levi#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Itay Levi|contribs]]) 14:07, 17 November 2020 (UTC)</span>}} <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:If you have reliable sources [[WP:RS]] to support your claim, go ahead and edit the article.[[User:Serv181920|Serv181920]] ([[User talk:Serv181920|talk]]) 16:31, 17 November 2020 (UTC) |
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::Itay Levi, the Pie chart you referred claims that 1% are '''Unclasiffied''' (What you call חסר דת). As to being Jewish, it is indeed ambiguous, one might say nearing meaninglessness, outside Israel; within your state, it is a matter not of self-definition but of official registration as a member of the Jewish ''[[Millet (Ottoman Empire)|millet]]''. [[User:AddMore-III|AddMore-III]] ([[User talk:AddMore-III|talk]]) 11:26, 21 November 2020 (UTC) |
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:::The problem is that it is under "religion in Israel" and does not represent the religion in Israel. My point is that it misleads people who enter the page and they do not know that it represents the ethnic Jewish group. If the data there is going to be mention, it should be in a non-central location and there need to be a clarification to the unrealistic match between the Jewish ethnic group % and the Jewish religious group % which does not give the correct picture of the religion in Israel. [[User:Itay Levi|Itay Levi]] ([[User talk:Itay Levi|talk]]) 19:25, 21 November 2020 (UTC) |
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::::The fact that your state does not allow you not to profess a religion (you'll have to petition a court to be registered as "unclassified") is not our fault. In Israel, being Jewish, legally, is not "being a member of an ethnic group" [https://www.hofesh.org.il/articles/hiloni_dati/no_secular_jews.html but being member of a rabbinate-controlled ''millet'']. Even subjectively, hardly anyone states "none" when asked what is their religion, and what they usually reply is that they are ''hiloni'', whatever that means. If you're troubled by that, you need to change reality, not wikipedia articles which reflect reality. [[User:AddMore-III|AddMore-III]] ([[User talk:AddMore-III|talk]]) 10:40, 22 November 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::1. ''"The fact that your state does not allow you not to profess a religion (you'll have to petition a court to be registered as "unclassified") is not our fault."'' but it is your fault saying that 99% of the population in Israel are religious. If China would say that its population is 99% religious without letting people be with no religion, that does not mean that 99% of its population is religious. 2.''"Even subjectively, hardly anyone states "none" when asked what is their religion"'' How do you know that? 3. ''"wikipedia articles which reflect reality"'', 1% people with no religion is not reality considering how much would consider themself as atheists here, let alone with no religion. This is far from reality and this unrealistic results should be in a non-central location and with an explanation if it should even be included as it has nothing to do with the religion in Israel but rather the controlled and distorted attribution of the state. [[User:Itay Levi|Itay Levi]] ([[User talk:Itay Levi|talk]]) 12:51, 22 November 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::In the references of the pie chart it says: "one-in-five do not believe in God". I refuse to believe that you really think that 20% do not believe in God but 99% of them are part of monotheistic religion which monotheistic by definition is: "relating to or characterized by the belief that there is only one God.". [[User:Itay Levi|Itay Levi]] ([[User talk:Itay Levi|talk]]) 13:15, 22 November 2020 (UTC) |
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::::::::According to the most recent in-depth survey, 33% of Anglicans do not believe in God (most of them are agnostic, the rest are doubters or atheists). But they answered "Anglican", not "none", when asked what's their religion, and are therefore classified as such. When the PEW respondents replied to the question "what is your '''religion'''?", they almost all answered "(something) Jew." The PEW researchers who made the chart we put here are more knowledgeable than you are about the sociology of religion in Israel than yourself. [[User:AddMore-III|AddMore-III]] ([[User talk:AddMore-III|talk]]) 18:58, 22 November 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::::Okay, I understand what you are saying. In the references of the pie chart, it also says: "while secular Jews tend to say it is mainly a matter of ancestry and/or culture.". So, in my opinion, it should be noted in the data to avoid misleading people who will see that it says "Judaism" and might not know that it is not only the actual monotheistic religion which is what it is defined by everywhere. Defining someone as religious based on ancestry and/or culture is not obvious and definitely not an accepted definition to religion, the main reason it is not obvious is that you can be anti-religious yet still be considered religious based on this unaccepted criteria, especially ancestry as in here religion is not even a choice. [[User:Itay Levi|Itay Levi]] ([[User talk:Itay Levi|talk]]) 08:16, 23 November 2020 (UTC) |
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Latest revision as of 15:16, 27 December 2024
 | A fact from Religion in Israel appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 12 October 2005. The text of the entry was as follows:
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This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
The Gospel
[edit]The article mentions that there has been friction between Christian groups and the government. Is this refering to the ban on preaching the Gospel, since this is a rumour that is widespread. Is this true?
I belive this to be true, but the only webpages I could find were pages of the "we fight against Jewish supremacism" sort. Although these pages are sometimes correct, I think most Wikipedians discount them as beeing anti-semitic. Personally I find it difficult to find correct information about Jews and Israel.
sverre
Subbotniki from USSR
[edit]How many subbotniki are living in Israel? Have they contact with Sabbat-Adventists? SimonMayer.
Need help
[edit]can sum1 tell me all the religions in Israel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.160.214.15 (talk) 14:11, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
Vandalism
[edit]Who added that bit about HELP ME THIS IS BORING! LOL HI PATRICK! HE WAS BORN ON THE DAY OF HALLOWEEN! SCARY I KNOW HE EVEN LOOKS LIKE A WEIRD PUMPKIN FACE LOL! HES A COOL GUYS BESIDES THAT AND HES FUN TO HANG OUT WITH! What on earth is that? Prox
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 November 2024
[edit] | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Add the missing citation after "since the 400 scholars who originally benefited from the exemption, had grown to 50,000":
"A Framework for Ultra-Orthodox Conscription". The Israel Democracy Institute. 2013. Zlmark (talk) 09:07, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 December 2024
[edit] | It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at Religion in Israel. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)
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Data for 2021 has been published and updated, and is publicly available at https://www.cbs.gov.il/he/publications/doclib/2022/2.shnatonpopulation/st02_02.pdf
Please update the statistics Randomp4rson (talk) 12:47, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
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