Talk:Melanie Phillips: Difference between revisions
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== Residence == |
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== Irish independence as a ‘domestic issue’ == |
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What source says she resides in Israel? [[Special:Contributions/2.98.176.93|2.98.176.93]] ([[User talk:2.98.176.93|talk]]) 22:10, 17 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:She stated on the BBC Politics Today (27th Nov 2024) that she lives most of the time in Israel. [[Special:Contributions/91.125.92.237|91.125.92.237]] ([[User talk:91.125.92.237|talk]]) 07:42, 28 November 2024 (UTC) |
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It is wrong to have her views on Irish independence listed as a ‘domestic issue’. Irish independence and national sovereignty is no more a British ‘domestic issue’ than US, Italian, or Japanese sovereignty. [[Special:Contributions/2A02:C7E:3338:BC00:9892:562:49BD:C9E6|2A02:C7E:3338:BC00:9892:562:49BD:C9E6]] ([[User talk:2A02:C7E:3338:BC00:9892:562:49BD:C9E6|talk]]) 14:09, 26 September 2022 (UTC) |
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::I meant Daily Politics [[Special:Contributions/91.125.92.237|91.125.92.237]] ([[User talk:91.125.92.237|talk]]) 07:43, 28 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== Breivik connection == |
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== far-right political views == |
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What's the reason this notable subject isn't acknowledged here? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/press/the-rightwing-columnists-in-killer-s-manifesto-2325918.html [[User:Rafe87|Rafe87]] ([[User talk:Rafe87|talk]]) 17:05, 1 January 2025 (UTC) |
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It is wrong to define Phillips as "far-right". [[Special:Contributions/2A06:C701:4512:5A00:E4A0:F1B2:5E20:B9B3|2A06:C701:4512:5A00:E4A0:F1B2:5E20:B9B3]] ([[User talk:2A06:C701:4512:5A00:E4A0:F1B2:5E20:B9B3|talk]]) 16:55, 19 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:You're talking about far-right in the lead sentence? It was done on [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Melanie_Phillips&diff=prev&oldid=1213990343 16 March 2024] when 31.205.97.209 changed "journalist, author, and" to "far-right". Later [[User:Alexanderkowal|Alexanderkowal]] reverted some of31.205.97.209's changes but left this one. Then [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Melanie_Phillips&diff=prev&oldid=1214216539 17 March 2024] 86.30.221.122 changed "far-right" to "right-wing", but [[User:Lemonaka|Lemonaka]] [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Melanie_Phillips&diff=next&oldid=1214216539 3 minutes later] reverted with an edit summary claiming that 86.30.221.122 was doing "Disruptive editing". Then [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Melanie_Phillips&diff=prev&oldid=1214553600 today] [[User:Athousandcuts2005|Athousandcuts2005]] got rid of "far-right". I support. I'd favour restoring "journalist, author" too. [[User:Peter Gulutzan|Peter Gulutzan]] ([[User talk:Peter Gulutzan|talk]]) 17:36, 19 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::@[[User:Peter Gulutzan|Peter Gulutzan]] you’d make a great historian! [[User:Alexanderkowal|Alexanderkowal]] ([[User talk:Alexanderkowal|talk]]) 18:25, 19 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::{{ping|Peter Gulutzan|2A06:C701:4512:5A00:E4A0:F1B2:5E20:B9B3|Athousandcuts2005}} my edit didn't say she was far right, it said she identified with some far right views which is evidenced by her support for [[Eurabia]] conspiracy theory, which says in the lead it is ''a far right conspiracy theory'', and [[ultraconservatism]], which says it ''usually refers to conservatives of the far right''. This is not up for debate. I'm sorry but my edit was correct. For the record, Dear lots of numbers and 1000 cuts, if you like her and agree with her on some things, that doesn't make you far right, but if you agree with some of the far right ideas she espouses it does. [[User:Alexanderkowal|Alexanderkowal]] ([[User talk:Alexanderkowal|talk]]) 18:32, 19 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::I'm inclined to remove the "right" or "far-right" description if there is no reliable sources or further discussion. [[user:Lemonaka|<span style="color:blue; text-shadow:jet 0 0.2em 0.2em; font-family:Segoe Print; font-size: 13px">-Lemonaka</span>]] 00:15, 20 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::@[[User:Lemonaka|Lemonaka]] are the three sources given not sufficient? [[User:Alexanderkowal|Alexanderkowal]] ([[User talk:Alexanderkowal|talk]]) 00:32, 20 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::@[[User:Lemonaka|Lemonaka]] I mean I’m open to discussion, however the points I made above are concrete and the sentence is well cited so I don’t see how meaningful discussion can follow. I realise I’ve been too heavy handed and egotistical in my previous comment, I do owe an apology to {{ping| 2A06:C701:4512:5A00:E4A0:F1B2:5E20:B9B3|Athousandcuts2005| Peter Gulutzan}} regarding how I have treated them. I just get frustrated at the sheer amount of corporate/PR editing there is on Wikipedia, however it was wrong to direct this at other users who showed no indication of this. If anyone has anything to add I’d be more than willing to hear it. [[User:Alexanderkowal|Alexanderkowal]] ([[User talk:Alexanderkowal|talk]]) 00:41, 20 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Reference one is a book she wrote, discussing about far-right and phobia among them, how could that used to say the author is far-right?<br>The origin news of reference two is https://www.ft.com/content/1c825298-d8f7-11e0-aff1-00144feabdc0, while I cannot read it since I'm not a subscriber.<br>The reference three said they are a follower of "dhimmitude" thesis, I'm not sure is it right-wing or far-right.<br>I'm inclined to ring-wing, or remove far-right. The definition of far-right is usually vague, and may cause some further disruptions. [[user:Lemonaka|<span style="color:blue; text-shadow:jet 0 0.2em 0.2em; font-family:Segoe Print; font-size: 13px">-Lemonaka</span>]] 05:35, 20 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::@[[User:Lemonaka|Lemonaka]] in this article she is described as a proponent of the Eurabia conspiracy theory and as an ultraconservative, both of which are described as far-right in their leads. The term dhimmitude ‘’plays a key role in the Islamophobic conspiracy theory of Eurabia’’, again a far right conspiracy theory stated in its lead. Whilst not explicitly stated as far right in the Guardian and Opendemocracy articles, the whole premise of the article is far right ideology. Why would they label every mention with “this is far right” upon first mention? |
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:::::The first is bogus, I thought it stated something it didn’t due to the small extract I could see in Google scholar. |
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:::::I haven’t referenced the FT at all? The other two are free to read and are reliable sources? It links to an FT article as a reference for Phillips as a proponent of Eurabia. |
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:::::I’ve added a third. |
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:::::Remember, the sentence is that she associates with far right ideology. It is enough to be mentioned in an article about far right ideology as an example. Your personal opinion that the term far right is often vague is not relevant, nor is my opinion about corporate bots. [[User:Alexanderkowal|Alexanderkowal]] ([[User talk:Alexanderkowal|talk]]) 07:47, 20 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::I disagree. The Wikipedia "definitions" of far-right don't matter, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_dictionary Wikipedia is not a dictionary], [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/the%20far%20right Oxford dictionary] and [https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/far-left-right Cambridge dictionary] don't say anyone who purportedly mentioned Eurabia is far right. The ft source (by Simon Kuper) (I could access it) says {{tq|"Breivik’s 1,518-page manifesto cites Eurabia authors such as Bruce Bawer, Bat Ye’or and Melanie Phillips. ... Phillips was too wacky. She blamed Islam’s conquest of Britain on British transsexuals, intellectuals, gays who adopt children, Antonio Gramsci, Phillips’s former employer The Guardian, etcetera."}} Your first source says {{tq|... the mainstream conservative writing of Oriana Fallaci, Niall Ferguson and Melanie Phillips ..}} and I stopped there because if we were taking this we'd have to accept it as support for "mainstream conservative" as well. Your second source (Sam Fowles on opendemocracy.net) says {{tq|Melanie Phillips’s work promoting the ‘Eurabia’ conspiracy theory (a predecessor to the great replacement) was cited in Anders Breivik’s manifesto. Phillips certainly can’t be accused of antisemitism. Instead, she blames a host of other far-right targets: homosexuals, Guardian readers, intellectuals and trans people.}} -- but others including Muslims can be wary of some of those groups too. Your third source is indeed only saying {{tq|The mainstream British writer Melanie Phillips has become an advocate of the “dhimmitude” thesis ...}}. (Hmm, that word "mainstream" again.) You need a consensus and you don't have one, you added not enough that directly supports your claim. However, since there has been so much back-and-forth changing of this part in the last few days, I'm reluctant to jump into an edit war immediately. [[User:Peter Gulutzan|Peter Gulutzan]] ([[User talk:Peter Gulutzan|talk]]) 14:03, 20 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::@[[User:Peter Gulutzan|Peter Gulutzan]] do you expect Cambridge dictionary to list every far right ideology/conspiracy theory? Are you seriously saying Eurabia isn't a far right conspiracy theory? Pure gaslighting. Again for the record, it does not say she is far right, it says she associates with far right ideas. I've included citations of her association with far right ideas, which includes her as an example of dissemination of far right ideas. In the lead of [[Eurabia conspiracy theory]] it says it is far right and provides two conclusive citations. If you want, I can include a citation which calls Eurabia far right and we can all continue on with our days. Also, I haven't cited FT, I don't know why you're talking about that, it is included in the Open Democracy article as a reference/firther information, not a source/main article. As for mainstream, that doesn't imply anything. Far right doesn't have to be fringe, that is your perception of it. See [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/19/has-far-right-become-mainstream-uk] and [https://www.politico.eu/article/euroskeptics-far-right-became-mainstream/]. [[User:Alexanderkowal|Alexanderkowal]] ([[User talk:Alexanderkowal|talk]]) 16:01, 20 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::Cambridge says [https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/gaslighting gaslighting] is "the action of tricking or controlling someone by making them believe things that are not true, especially by suggesting that they may be mentally ill: ..." I'm not sure what part of that you're accusing me of. A source using an argument that she says something and some group says that thing is like a "nudge nudge, know what I mean" skit from Monty Python, which is where it belongs. If the author who says far-right doesn't go beyond the nudging, and if Wikipedians come to the conclusion that hasn't been directly stated, then I worry about [[WP:SYNTH]] and about the WP:V uses of the word "directly" e.g. as in "Sources must support the material clearly and directly ...". As for the mention of FT, Lemonaka brought it up and you responded mentioning it so I'm baffled that you don't know why I talked about it too to say what's in it. Now, folks who might be watching this page have seen what the IP and I and Lemonaka and you think. Let's see whether anybody else steps in to support or oppose your edits. [[User:Peter Gulutzan|Peter Gulutzan]] ([[User talk:Peter Gulutzan|talk]]) 17:27, 20 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::@[[User:Peter Gulutzan|Peter Gulutzan]] This is so clear cut I can't believe it's a discussion. The sentence "''she came to identify with ideas more associated with right-wing politics and the far-right''" is supported by articles about far right ideology that uses her as an example. To be clear I am not calling her far-right. |
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:::::::::The references stated she is a proponent of the [[Eurabia conspiracy theory]] which is a far right conspiracy theory, as stated in [[Eurabia|that articles lead]] supported by two comprehensive citations. This is indisputable regardless of what you think of my first point. This point alone is enough and is what you should focus on rather than picking apart the weaker point above. I have added further citations that, if you want the sentence removed you have to debunk all citations/be left with a couple flimsy ones. |
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:::::::::Is the point of contention with the first point that you don't believe she has been included in these articles as an example of the subject? If so, can you propose another reason why she is included. [[User:Alexanderkowal|Alexanderkowal]] ([[User talk:Alexanderkowal|talk]]) 17:46, 20 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::@[[User:Peter Gulutzan|Peter Gulutzan]] Also, we don't know what Lemonaka and IP think of my main point, we don't even know what you think about my main point because you won't address it. [[User:Alexanderkowal|Alexanderkowal]] ([[User talk:Alexanderkowal|talk]]) 18:37, 20 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::[[User:Lemonaka|Lemonaka]]: Alexanderkowal says "we don't know what Lemonaka and IP think of my main point". Can you respond? [[User:Peter Gulutzan|Peter Gulutzan]] ([[User talk:Peter Gulutzan|talk]]) 20:23, 21 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::@[[User:Peter Gulutzan|Peter Gulutzan]] can you please address my main point if you can find the time, or I will assume you disagree with the sentiment but that you can't find fault with it. [[User:Alexanderkowal|Alexanderkowal]] ([[User talk:Alexanderkowal|talk]]) 20:30, 21 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Lemonaka and the IP haven't responded. Does anyone watching this have an opinion supporting or opposing far-right in the lead and/or Alexanderkowal's insertions? [[User:Peter Gulutzan|Peter Gulutzan]] ([[User talk:Peter Gulutzan|talk]]) 15:23, 26 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::@[[User:Peter Gulutzan|Peter Gulutzan]] I think the only way you could refute this is if you found multiple reliable sources that label [[Eurabia conspiracy theory]] as right-wing (or anywhere else on the spectrum) that numbered greater than the ones I could find that say it’s far-right [[User:Alexanderkowal|Alexanderkowal]] ([[User talk:Alexanderkowal|talk]]) 15:45, 26 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::: I'm with Alexander on this one. If you support Eurabia, you're expressing a far-right (and crazy conspiracy) view. Her other views might be merely odious rather than specifically far-right, but Eurabia (and its backers) is. [[User:Andy Dingley|Andy Dingley]] ([[User talk:Andy Dingley|talk]]) 19:01, 26 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::Wait.... Anyway, is there any source for this idea is far-right? We don't need a source for MP herself, but sources for Eurabia theory as far-right. [[user:Lemonaka|<span style="color:blue; text-shadow:jet 0 0.2em 0.2em; font-family:Segoe Print; font-size: 13px">-Lemonaka</span>]] 12:38, 28 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::@[[User:Lemonaka|Lemonaka]] yeah, if you look at the [[Eurabia conspiracy theory]] page, there’s multiple citations for describing it as far right. If you want I can add a credible one to this page? [[User:Alexanderkowal|Alexanderkowal]] ([[User talk:Alexanderkowal|talk]]) 13:26, 28 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::Actually you should have a source for Melanie Phillips herself, i.e. proof that she uses the word, as well as proof that only far-right people use it as this is their defining characteristic. [[User:Peter Gulutzan|Peter Gulutzan]] ([[User talk:Peter Gulutzan|talk]]) 14:53, 28 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::@[[User:Peter Gulutzan|Peter Gulutzan]] The sentence is that she associates with far-right ideas. Secondary reliable sources are sufficient. See [[WP:No original research#Primary, secondary and tertiary sources]] [[User:Alexanderkowal|Alexanderkowal]]. Primary sources are generally not permitted because they induce OR ([[User talk:Alexanderkowal|talk]]) 15:13, 28 March 2024 (UTC) |
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Residence
[edit]What source says she resides in Israel? 2.98.176.93 (talk) 22:10, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- She stated on the BBC Politics Today (27th Nov 2024) that she lives most of the time in Israel. 91.125.92.237 (talk) 07:42, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
- I meant Daily Politics 91.125.92.237 (talk) 07:43, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
Breivik connection
[edit]What's the reason this notable subject isn't acknowledged here? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/press/the-rightwing-columnists-in-killer-s-manifesto-2325918.html Rafe87 (talk) 17:05, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
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