Talk:Ruckus Network/Mediation

Mediation

Hello. Nroseszu requested mediation for this article. First, I'd like to remind everyone that the results of this case are non-binding, and that I am in no way operating in an official capacity for Wikipedia. Nor am I an administrator. I'm just another ordinary user, like you :)

Now, on to the matter at hand. I have reviewed the article, its edit history, and the discussions on Talk:Ruckus Network and User_talk:Plasticbadge.

Reminders

Before we proceed, I'd like to issue some reminders.

• Plasticbadge, please remain civil and refrain from making personal attacks. Comments such as "Irregardless" isn't a real word moron. will not help resolve this issue.
• Both editors should assume good faith. Plasticbadge, please be advised that, while being an employee of a corporation may make a user's contributions suspicious in your mind, no one user "owns" a Wikipedia article. Telling other users to "keep [their] nose out of the criticism section and the wording of the article" is generally frowned upon.
• Nroseszu, accusation of libel, as you leveled in the mediation page, is a serious matter indeed. If Ruckus Network truly feels libelous material is present on the page, please visit WP:LIBEL.
• Nroseszu, please do not delete items from your user talk page. Feel free to archive it if you feel it is getting too crowded.

Update: deleting items from talk pages is accepted as OK by some users. Gzkn 06:34, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

• Both editors are strongly encouraged to follow the three revert rule, as violations of this rule may result in administrative action in the form of blocks. Discussion on talk pages is always preferable to blanket reverts and edit wars.
• To both editors: please sign all of your posts with four tildes (~~~~).

Questions

• There are a plethora of anonymous IP edits in the history page. Nroseszu, were you 216.143.51.66?

No, that was a college intern who took it upon himself to edit the Article page without my knowledge. I stepped in with my user account once I was informed he was trying to "update the Wiki page" -- I was attempting to provide accurate information as a knowledgeable Ruckus employee; however, as you can see, this was perceived as "corporate whitewashing" -- even though I was merely attempting to clarify points that were not accurate (our business model, user base, etc) and those points that were not properly cited/supported. -Nroseszu

Compromise

Because there are just too many reverts/edits to deal with individually, I feel we should just start at the beginning of the article and work our way through to the end in order to come up with a suitable compromise version for all parties involved. The article needs an overhaul anyway, as it does not conform to WP:LAYOUT and WP:Manual of Style (thus the {{wikify}} tag that I added). Also, please familiarize yourselves with WP:CITE before we move forward. Articles must be verfiable. Finally, take a look at some of the featured articles for inspiration.

First, is the name of the company Ruckus or Ruckus Network? If it's Ruckus, I propose we move the article to "Ruckus (online music service)" or something similar for clarity's sake. Thoughts?

The official name is Ruckus Network. The current location/name is fine. -Nroseszu 10:22, 9 November 2006 (EST)

OK, now onto the article itself. Since Ruckus is a company, take a look at the article on Microsoft for some inspiration, although obviously, this article won't be as long. Note how many inline citations there are. I propose an overhaul of the structure of this article, as so:

• Lead
• History
• Products and services
• Criticism and controversy - This would include the Facebook incident
• See also
• References and footnotes
• External links

This will allow us to convert those lists to prose. Thoughts? Gzkn 07:04, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks so much for your help. This format would be wonderful. My main issue was that the Ruckus Article is not in line with Articles of other simliar companies. Whenever I attempted to format anything that was informative or factual about the company, I was quickly slapped with the phrase "adspeak."

From my perspective, anything that was posted that was not negative or critical of Ruckus' possible shortcomings was flagged as dubious marketing or adspeak. Simple statements and external links to relevant newspaper articles were removed by the same definition. This troubled me seeing as other company Wikipedia articles are clearly outlined with History, Products and Services, etc. -- whereas Ruckus was merely a brief blurb, Features and Restrictions (one line features, the rest restrictions), Criticism, and the Brody Ruckus incident. Seems pretty biased towards a negative Ruckus user's framework if you ask me. (PlasticBadge has admitted that he was a former user of the service)

Please be aware that throughout this entire process I have tried my best for active communication and collaboration. I am not doing this as a "work project" and am not part of some "evil corporate" agenda as PlasticBadge, has noted on several occassions. It just becomes very frustrating when it's a two person battle, so-to-speak, in which one user's knowledge of Wikipeda clearly gives them the advantage of the final edit -- regardless of what the truth may be.

As I said above, I have no problem with the format as set forth above -- in fact, I would greatly welcome it. It provides a fair and balanced compromise to the situation. I would only ask that you, Gzkn, help us through this entire process.

Finally, I do apologize for my lack of proper Wiki protocal -- but I'm a fast learner :) -Nroseszu 10:17, 9 November 2006 (EST)

I'd start off by saying that I stopped using the service but I harbor no ill will toward it. My use of the service led me to this article, but to my knowledge there are few other regular editors of this article. I'm sorry if that gives the impression that I am trying to "take ownership" of the piece. In fact, I have largely limited my actions to protective actions acainst what I felt were suspicious changes in wording that favored the company. In some cases IP users would delete the criticism section en masse. Needless to say I found such actions odd, so when Nroseszu finally admitted to being a company employee, alarm bells went off. He posted that he was staying overtime at the office to work on the Wiki with a graphic designer who was creating content just for the article. Instead of meaningful changes, though, (such as building a comprehensive history section), he resorted to petty changes to the wording of the criticism section and superfluous links. I understand that he is new to Wikipedia, but I had no choice to follow him into a revert war as he kept editing the article without discussing major changes in the talkpage beforehand. let's make this civil and discuss any changes on here before making them, shall we? - Plasticbadge 16:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I will ingore the attacks on my character as a corporate henchman. I'll just make this clear one last time -- there is no overtime in my profession -- I do not clock in and out at the office. I'm not a suit trying to use Wikipedia as a marketing or Advertising tool. I stayed late because I was trying to come to a resolution of truth on the article page. I was not satisfied with your attitude of benevolent ownership of the page and I intended to right the information that was inaccurate and false. (And the use of a graphic designer is not implication of evil-corporate changes -- If anything, it adds validity to the article and ensures the logo being used is correct.) Also, "superfluous links" -- this would imply you are using your own opinion as a benevolent single user as to what is allowed. The external links I posted were from reputable student newspapers about the Ruckus service. There is absolutely no reason not to include these as they are a direct user response to the company and it's services. It seems pretty ironic that you would remove these "superfluous links" given that you have contended that the Criticism section is based/cited from a student newspaper at Syracuse. As the Mediator has pointed out, no one user "owns" a Wikipedia article. As I have stated on numerous occasions, I am here to work within the rules, regulations and established precendents of the Wikipedia community. I am only asking for fair and just editorial changes that are in line with comparable company Wiki pages. With this being said, shall I go ahead and create the company History and Product and Services sections? I will need outside help to "Wikify" the article -- I'm reading up on this, but am probably not the best canidate to attempt this. -Nroseszu 12:20, 9 November 2006 (EST)

The link in the criticism section was a cited source, whereas the articles you posted were fluff cheer leading pieces that added little to the article. "Ruckus is coming to our school this is how it works" is not a compelling reason for a link. Links should tell a story not available in the body article and should provide meaningful further reading.

Again, I never claimed to "own" the article, but as the only active regular editor of this article I do take some pride in preventing vandalism from the corporate world. Before you make any changes, I ask that you post proposals here and we can discuss what does and does not fit in with the Wikipedia style. Please try to be as objective as possible, as I will certainly try to be. - Plasticbadge 17:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I will post my proposed changes here when they are complete and we can continue from there. I would ask that you attempt to disassociate your perceived "vandalism" with any forms of "dissenting information." - Nroseszu 14:33, 9 November 2006 (EST)

How can you not understand my uneasiness with having corporate involvement in in article that has such a history of vandalism? What other name would you use to describe the deletion of the criticism section? - Plasticbadge 21:21, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree; I would describe the deletion of entire content sections as "vandalism" -- as it has been used in reference to Wikipedia. However, I take issue when you state that you are "preventing vandalism from the corporate world." Let's not point fingers unless you are ready to support your claims against my company with valid evidence. I'm not to blame if you have dealt with this with other companies such as cDigix -- learn to differentiate. You are dealing with two separate companies/entities on two separate instances. - Nroseszu 16:53, 9 November 2006 (EST)

There have been some IP user edits I would describe as vandalism in the history of this article. I don;t know for sure that it was someone at your company, but in my experience that is the only logical answer. Acting rationally, only a Ruckus employee would want to see the criticism section deleted or heavily toned down. There is a chance I'm wrong, but it goes against rational choice theory and my well tuned gut instincts. I'll reserve judgment, but I still smell a rat. - Plasticbadge 22:00, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Your quotes: "I don't know for sure" -- "The is a chance I'm wrong" -- "my well tuned gut instincts." Hmm, seemingly ironic given that Wikipedia is based of citations, factual information and proper notation. Last time I checked, personal opinion, circumstantial evidence and "gut instincts" aren't recognized as legitimate Wiki justification. You're only digging yourself a bigger hole my friend. Please just chill with all your anti-me, anti-corporate, anti-Ruckus sentiments and focus on the COLLABORATIVE work. - Nroseszu 17:08, 9 November 2006 (EST)

Hello all. Sorry I've been away (sleeping). It seems we operate on different timezones so I will not be able to respond as swiftly to your comments as you may wish. If you want, I can ask for another mediator to help out while I'm asleep (then it'd be a 24 hour operation! =]). Anyway on to the above discussion. You all made some good points. I agree with Plasticbadge's request that we discuss any proposals here. I see you two have already done so below in the Proposed Changes section. Thank you both for taking the initiative and working towards a compromise. Once again, however, I would like to ask Plasticbadge to assume good faith, whatever your history with other companies. Gzkn 00:48, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Proposed Changes

For the History section:

Ruckus Network, based in Herndon, Virginia, is backed by venture capitalists Battery Ventures and Shelter Capital Partners. With its official launch in September of 2004 at Northern Illinois University, Ruckus became the first online music service focused exclusively on the colleges market. In January of 2006, Ruckus moved away from its subscription business model in favor of one that was ad-subsidized. This change eliminated the previous monthly fee required for site access and granted users cost-free entry to use the service. As of November, 2006, Ruckus has officially partnered with 80 colleges and universities and five state-wide network systems, which support an additional 200+ higher education institutions.

I have no problems with that, except for the direct links to external sites of the venture capitalists in the body. That is unusual in Wikipedia articles. The preferred method if footnotes, or links to Wikipedia articles on the subjects. - Plasticbadge 22:34, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Cool. Wasn't sure how to link to these -- thanks, I'll use footnotes.

Like Plasticbadge said, footnotes or Harvard citation style (see WP:CITE) are now preferable to external links. I see you have already incorporated footnotes into the actual page. Good! However, I was wondering if you could perhaps take a look at Wikipedia:Template_messages/Sources_of_articles/Generic_citations. These templates allow for easy formatting of citations/footnotes to maintain consistency throughout the article. In particular, since most of our sources will probably be from the web, both of you should take a particular look at cite web. I took the liberty of converting one of the citations in "Brody Ruckus" incident section to cite web format, so take a look at that. Also, another friendly reminder to sign all your posts. :) Gzkn 00:55, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Took another look at the History section, and the current references you're using are just outside links. We'll need to provide citations that back up your sentences. For example, in the first sentence, we should not be linking to the websites of Battery Ventures and Shelter Capital. Instead, find a source that verifies the claim that Ruckus is backed by those two venture capitalists. Linking to a press release is probably fine here, if you can't find a neutral source, as we're not making any outrageous claims. With the second sentence, however, we'll need an outside source, as claims to being the "first" anything are often contentious. The next two sentences also need citations. However, if one source is able to cover both of the statements, it is fine just to put the citation at the end of the second sentence, so it isn't as unsightly. Finally, the last sentence also needs a citation. Also, how about "over 200" instead of "200+" if you don't know the exact number? Gzkn 01:12, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Done, done and done. I think I might need some help in cleaning up the proper citing protocal. Little help? - Nrsoeszu 01:08, 10 November 2006 (EST)

Hmmm. I'm not seeing citations for two of the sentences I mentioned (I marked both of them with "citation needed"). Those still need sources. As far as formatting, we can deal with converting the citations to the proper format at a later time. I think it's more important we develop a consensus version of the article first. Plasticbadge, Nrsoeszu, what section should we tackle next? Gzkn 06:58, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I usually prefer to get a History section fully fleshed out and cited before moving on, but I'd be open to suggestion. - Plasticbadge 15:59, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

OK. Let's do that then. Plasticbadge, was there anything else you wanted to see included in the history section (besides those cites)? Gzkn 03:31, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not as familiar with the history of the company as Nrsoeszu, but I think something on the context of the company creation might be helpful. The success and fall of free peer to peer services followed by the RIAA reaction was key to the creation of this and like services, and I think might add quite a lot to the article. - Plasticbadge 20:31, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm looking for those citations and I'll work on something for the creation of Ruckus. As for the success and fall of free peer to peer services, you're more than welcome to write something up. Btw, I removed the Playforsure mentioning given that Microsoft has not officially said they will no longer support it. That is merely market speculation to the best of my knowledge unless you've read something elsewhere? - Nrsoeszu 021:23, 11 November 2006 (EST)

As of the release of the Zune, playsforsure is no longer actively supported by Microsoft. Check out the Wikipedia entry on playsforsure. - Plasticbadge 05:25, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't see it? Little help? - Nrsoeszu 01:12, 13 November 2006 (EST)

It looks like it has changed a bit since I was there last. Sorry for any confusion, Wikipedia is a living document. With the release of the Zune player, Microsoft is discontinuing their playsforsure store and will no longer be developing new pfs codes. From this point on, all Microsoft support for plays for sure is nominal. They will let their plays for sure affiliates use the name, but the Zune gives them no impetus to continue development. It is basically dying software. - Plasticbadge 05:22, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

We'll need a citation for this though. Gzkn 05:37, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Two examples -

http://www.medialoper.com/hot-topics/music/is-zune-a-playsforsure-killer/ http://seattlepi.com/business/285407_software18.html -Plasticbadge 13:06, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Great! Thanks! Gzkn 13:08, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

This article (http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full_story.php?content_id=146275) isn't directly related, but it does confirm that the Microsoft playsforsure music store is closing this week. I'm sorry I couldn't find a more relevant article in the hurry I'm in, but this at least verifies that fact. I wouldn't expect Redmond to make an official statement saying they will abandon playsforsure, but it seems clear that they have left their playsforsure allies out to dry for the good of the Zune. - Plasticbadge 13:43, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Again, none of these sources confirm that Microsoft will no longer support playforsure. They are merely speculation by industry types and only confirm that Zune won't do playforsure. To be honest, I really don't care all that much -- but in good faith for abiding by Wiki practices, I would ask that you find a source from the mouth of Microsoft confirming they will "no longer support playforsure" instead of posting facts that are only market hearsay and assumptions. I mention this in small part because from what I've been told from reputable industry sources, Micrsoft will indeed still "support" playforsure technically and with upgrade support. Find me an article that clearly confirms otherwise and I'll drop the argument. Until then, either change the "no longer actively supported" to something along the lines of "speculation amongst market insiders" or remove it entirely. - Nrsoeszu 12:54, 13 November 2006 (EST)

For the Product and Services section:
I'll try to get something concrete up here later today. - Nroseszu 13:01, 13 November 2006 (EST)

For the Criticism and Controversy section:
Plastic, why don't you head this up since you seem to be so keen on it, haha, KIDDING. No, but really, why don't you Wikify the current content -- combining the list of criticism and Brody sources into one section as suggested by Gzkn in the preferred article format. - Nroseszu 13:01, 13 November 2006 (EST)

You must be mistaken - the Zune is absolutely not compatible with playsforsure. Pfs carries its own DRM, which is distinct and incompatible with Zune and Zune marketplace. Microsoft says they won't abandon playsforsure, but if you think they won't focus nearly all of their energies on Zune, you will be in for quite a shock when you try to get your Zune to play playsforsure media (Ruckus or otherwise). This is hardly speculation, the Zune is being stocked in stores across America as I type this. Playsforsure is no longer the Microsoft flagship, and only the most gullible could believe the program will survive the Zune era. As for combining the Brdoy Ruckus section and the criticisms, I'm still not sure such a move would be ideal. It would bloat the criticisms section, and removes the Brody incident from the rest of the company's history. Aside from criticism of marketing techniques, the incident is significant in its own right as a high watermark of public awareness within the facebook community. Maybe a briefer synopsis is in order for the criticism section, while the main body is preserved elsewhere in the article. - Plasticbadge 18:30, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

"[The sources] are merely speculation by industry types and only confirm that Zune won't do playforsure." Plastic, I'm agreeing with you about Zune. It doesn't work with PlayforSure -- I never said it did. You said it yourself: "Microsoft says they won't abandon playsforsure" -- Correct - I'm talking about Microsoft and PlayforSure. Until Microsoft states otherwise, the reference on the Ruckus article page about the DRM no longer being supported is unfounded and 100% speculation (Even if this speculation is rationale and widely propagated through the online media -- it is still not factual information). My "gullibility" isn't in question for this article (I assure you I am very grounded in the realm of reality) -- I am only contending that the page reflect FACTUAL information -- and not speculation. Do I think Microsoft will abandon Playforsure? Maybe. However, in the current time, there has been nothing released or published that would confirm that fact and thus the line should be removed. - Nroseszu 13:48, 13 November 2006 (EST)

Re: criticism and Brody -- let's work with what you said above. Show me what you had in mind and we'll go from there. - Nroseszu 13:50, 13 November 2006 (EST)

In the article, the operative word in "active support" is "active". Of course Microsoft will nominally support playsforsure for the time being, but it shouldn't take an official announcement to see that Zune is now very much the Microsoft media flagship, and will undoubtedly be the locus of coming MS innovations. If you would like, I'd be open to reworking the phrase "no longer actively supported by Microsoft", but I feel it succinctly sums up the state of playsforsure. - Plasticbadge 20:58, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm just following the rules set forth by you. I'm not loking for an "official announcement" -- however it does need some sort of release from Microsoft. Bloggers and industry reflectors are not the ones supporting PlayForSure. It would be nice if others could weigh in on this, but it seems our Mediator only pops in from time to time -- can we get more than one mediator? In the meantime, please remove that sentence, given that in it's current connotation it is uncited and false. If you would like to discuss rewording it, please do so on these discussion pages after you have removed the line given that we cannot come to an agreement on it currently. Regardless of what you "feel" the current state of playforsure might be -- Wikipedia isn't speculative. I'm fairly certain that unless a fact is substantiated, it has no place being used as it is now. If I wanted, I could write 100s of "facts" around the tech Wiki articles regarding speculation and assumptions, but alas, they aren't factual and would be removed. If you want to include this reference, I'd say to remove it from its current location -- instead making reference to one of your sources listed above as an External Link. I'm cool with that. - Nroseszu 16:30, 13 November 2006 (EST)

Duly noted. I made a change in wording that should be more palatable, even if the precision comes at a cost in word count. PlaysForSure may not be dead yet, but its future is undeniably up in the air. You cannot argue with that - it is all over the media. Such uncertainty is never good for consumer confidence, and is a liability to the product. - Plasticbadge 00:41, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

That change works for me, thanks. Sorry for my lack of Wiki time -- I was away on business and will be away this weekend as well. Plastic, could you please work on the wikifying the criticism section? Thanks. - Nroseszu 10:57, 16 November 2006 (EST)

College is a full time job sometimes, and unfirtunatly this week has been one of those times. I'll be back to usual soon. - Plasticbadge 16:50, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello. Like I said above, we're operating on different time zones, so my responses will not be swift. I will put in a request for another mediator as suggested. As far as the source about playsforsure, there is actually no need for an "official release" from Microsoft. It just has to be a reputable source (i.e. blogs are not OK). I'd say that Seattle Post Intelliger article that PlasticBadge pasted above is just fine. And PlasticBadge has reworded that bit about it being "no longer actively supported by Microsoft" so that it's no longer misleading. Nroseszu, you'll need a citation for that statement you added about Ruckus having been founded by the two MIT students. Look forward to seeing your Products and Services section. PlasticBadge, I was thinking though that the Brody Ruckus thing would have it's own subhead like so:

==Criticism==

blah blah blah blahblah blahblah blahblah blahblah blahblah blahblah blahblah blahblah blahblah blahblah blahblah blah

===Brody Ruckus Incident===

blah blah blah blahblah blahblah blahblah blahblah blahblah blahblah blahblah blahblah blahblah blahblah blahblah blah

This would still put Brody Ruckus incident in the Table of Contents. But if you feel combining the Brody Ruckus incident with the criticisms isn't a good idea, that's fine too. Gzkn 01:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Is a second mediator really necessary? I mean, there are only two active contributors to this piece at the present, and changes and suggestions are coming at a relatively manageable pace. Unless there is a dramatic increase in daily contribution output, I remain comfortable with our team in its current form. - Plasticbadge 02:30, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment - Hi. I've agreed to check in on the discussion from time to time. I'm located in Connecticut so I'll be able to respond to questions and concerns during the week (I'm heading out on Friday for a funeral so I'll only be around till about noon). For the most part, I'll just watch what's going on and let Gzkn do the primary mediating. If either of you want a comment on something (or if the debate gets too heated) I'll offer my two cents. →Bobby← 16:41, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Still active?

Is this mediation still active or can I close it? --Ideogram 20:36, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I would say close it. I've been keeping tabs on the thing for a while now and it seems the whole editing issue is cold. - Plasticbadge 01:20, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Closing. You can leave a note on my talk page if it needs to be reopened. --Ideogram 01:21, 23 January 2007 (UTC)