User talk:John from Idegon/Archive 77

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Grand Blanc HS

Hi John

Just updated the Grand Blanc in the SVL thing with a solid reference; sorry I didn't do it sooner. On a related note, I imagine MHSAA hasn't been updated with the change due to the fact that Grand Blanc joins the SVL effective the 2018-19 school year, which hasn't occurred yet, so I imagine that MHSAA will likely update to reflect the change upon August or September of this year. Thanks for pointing this out! Finchwidget (talk) 03:27, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Hiya, Finchwidget. Thanks. MHSAA usually updates at the time the fall athletics season kicks off, generally by the first day football team practice is allowed. However, since they are the definitive source, we did need another one. That news source could be removed and the athletic section condensed a bit when MHSAA updates. Two things: I have no idea when it was changed, but football was listed as a coed sport (unsourced). Even if the team rostered a girl and even if she played, the sport is exclusively a boys sport in Michigan. Second, I had to fix your ref. You'd entered the template call as "cite=web", instead of "cite web", which of course broke the ref. But since you were citing a news story, I changed it to a "cite news" template, which allows the addition of a publication date and the author's name, both of which make it easier to relocate in case the url changes, which they sometimes do. That's one of the reasons we format references. If you have any insight on the football thing, I'd be interested. Thanks for your work on Michigan schools. There are a ton of small schools in Michigan that still need articles. If you're up for it, I'm glad to help. John from Idegon (talk) 05:52, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

That would be great! There've been a bunch of high schools (especially in the Metro Detroit area) that have been on my radar for a long time in regards to needing their own article, but I have no idea how to even start creating a new article, so if you could help out, that would be amazing! And I'm in the middle of updating all the Michigan high school sports conferences that have their own page on here, so I've been gathering a significant amount of knowledge on them. One website in particular I've found quite helpful and I often consult is called michigan-football.com. It's not operated by the MHSAA, but it's been cataloging the various sports conferences in Michigan, their changes in membership, and each individual high schools win-loss records since 1950. In addition, they're usually the first to show that a high school has swapped conferences or something. Its well-maintained, its very useful, and the owner even offers links to other websites of the same nature for other states, so Indiana high school football statistics, Wyoming high school football statistics, and a couple of others. It also has boys basketball statistics, but that is significantly less comprehensive. Anyway, in case you ever need to look into Michigan high school football again, I strongly recommend checking it out. Finchwidget (talk) 02:51, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Hey, Finchwidget! Glad to hear your enthusiasm. FYI, I lived in West Michigan most of my life (Kalamazoo area), but lived in Ann Arbor, Ypsilanti and Hamburg for a period too. I've only been out west for 14 years and grew up in the Gary, Indiana area. A caution...websites like that you named above are great sources for leads, but cannot be used for references. They are essentially one person's work, and offer no evidence of fact checking and do not possess the "reputation for accuracy" that WP:RS requires. Keep up the good work on the conference updates, keeping in mind there is no deadline, and MHSAA will update soon. If you haven't a reliable source, just hold off til they do, although there sure should be a newspaper story you can use. I'm tracking an abandoned draft on Stockbridge Jr/Sr high school, and I will look it up for you later. Since you've got a start there, that might be a good place to start. Otherwise, just follow the standard layout for a school article at the school article guidelines. Notability for a school article is not too high of a hurdle. As long as you have the school website, MHSAA, NCES and at least one newspaper story, your good. Not great, but not deletable. If you have any schools in mind, let me know. I can see no reason you cannot edit JHS, but if you continue to have problems, let me know. That article has been a personal hell hole for me. Socks, BLP violations, organized personal attacks and harassment....half the IP addresses at U of M and University of Idaho are blocked over it. lol, the joys of Wikipedia. John from Idegon (talk) 03:24, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Alright, sounds good! I was actually thinking about starting with Taylor High School, since it's a pretty big school and the only reason it hasn't gotten one already is because of how recently it was established (not sure if you heard, but the two high schools in the Taylor district, Truman and Kennedy, consolidated to make Taylor just this year, so its quite new). But yeah, if you find that Stockbridge Jr/Sr HS draft, feel free to let me know! Thanks for all your help! Finchwidget (talk) 23:15, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

I assume you mean starting in the school year 2018-19? Cause the school district website doesn't show anything under that name. Is it a new school in a new location, or a rename of one of the existing schools? That would make a difference in how we handled it here. John from Idegon (talk) 23:49, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, it just opened for the 18-19 school year. Its similar to what happened to Royal Oak, Pontiac, Bloomfield Hills, and a bunch of other schools in the area: one of the two high schools in the district was shut down, and all of its students were sent to the other high school, which in turn was renamed. I guess its a rename of an existing school, but in all those examples I mentioned, the newly formed high school ended up getting its own article as opposed to adding on to the existing schools page, so what's your call here? Finchwidget (talk) 18:07, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Draft:Stockbridge Junior / Senior High School . The kid who started this was only interested in making an athletic fan site. The school recently (when?) changed from just a high school to a Jr/Sr high school. Probably gonna need a newspaper cite for that. John from Idegon (talk) 05:06, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Regarding sources

Thank you for the help. My entry was entirely paraphrased from reliable sources. I not only witnessed it, but I have studied the event I wrote about more than probably any other individual. I just couldn’t get the citations working correctly and decided to write the entry and then figure out how to integrate the links. It was taken down before I could read how to do citations. Either way, there needs to be a more user-friendly way for people to contribute content. Until that happens I will not continue contributing. Thanks again. Zetlaux (talk) 02:42, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Zetlaux, there is. I will leave you instructions on your talk page. Once you get the hang of it, it is a snap. John from Idegon (talk) 02:48, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Is it possible to cite email correspondence with experts? Some of my information comes from direct emails with National Weather Service. Zetlaux (talk) 02:55, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Additionally, NWS products that contained some of my information has been purged from their servers because over a year has gone by. They don’t keep the information online forever. Zetlaux (talk) 02:57, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

For your first question, no. All sources for an encyclopedia (not just this one) must be published, as encyclopedia's are by nature, tertiary. Using an email would be WP:OR. The wayback machine can be your friend for the other issue. Just search it on google. You can plug in a URL and it will tell you every copy it has on file for it. It should be able to give you an archived link. Lemme know if you find any, and I will help you format the reference for it. John from Idegon (talk) 03:06, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

I understand why my content was pulled. Thanks for explaining it. This has turned into a serious PITA for what its worth for me to publish it since there are no published non-tertiary souces with the info I need to include in the entry for people to have context. I’ll simply write my own article on it and publish it via another non-encyclopedic venue. Thanks for all your obviously very hard work. Zetlaux (talk) 03:21, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Zetlaux, you don't need tertiary sources, you need secondary sources. NWS would be that. Newspaper articles are sometimes, but even their first hand accounts are useful and likely would not be removed. What you cannot do is use unpublished sources, or combine what two sources say to reach a conclusion. I'm glad to help. The Teahouse is also a good resource if you are finding me hard to follow. Thanks for the work you are doing. I'm a bit of a weather buff and amateur meteorologist myself! John from Idegon (talk) 03:30, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Cool! I’m still a little baffled. Look.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironton,_Ohio

That is the page I attempted to add to. How is it possible that there are 11 “citation needed” markers in that same article and several vast paragraphs with no citation markers at all? Why wasn’t my entry labeled with citation needed? Zetlaux (talk) 03:36, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Because Wikipedia is a highly imperfect beast, and entirely operated by volunteers. A few years ago, it became apparent that we had to do a better job insuring accuracy, and also in providing information readers (especially schoolkids) could actually use. No educator would allow Wikipedia to be cited, and still don't. That's perfectly fair, not because we are inaccurate (in hard science topics, and medicine especially, our accuracy rate is comparable to Britannica's), but because we are dynamic. The version cited might not be the same when the citation is verified. We have a unique business model where labor is free, and because of that, we are putting the traditional encyclopedia's out of business. So over the past few years, we've made a stronger push to ensure proper citation and verification. Another thing that has happened is new changes are being patrolled. So a problem that has been in an article for years may stay undetected until someone wants to work hard on the article. A new error introduced, however, is going to be detected almost immediately. Witness the kerfuffle recently with an article on the Republican party saying for a short period that Republicans were Nazi's. Yes that happened. It was also caught and reverted in less than 10 minutes. Imperfections, but the best we've got. I'd hope you'd contribute, and frankly, you've had a bigger helping hand extended to you than many new editors get. But in the end, the choice is yours. I'm here to help if you'd like. John from Idegon (talk) 03:54, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for the detailed response. Ironically, I am an educator and I openly support Wikipedia as a starting place (though never for the final word on something) for research. I teach high school physical science. Most teachers do not allow students to use it because they are under the impression that anyone can change content unchecked, which is more laugable to me today than it was yesterday.  :) Zetlaux (talk) 04:04, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I was a college instructor for two whole semesters in my late twenties. Hotel marketing 304 at one of the more prestigious hotel and restaurant management schools in the country, as a sideline to my career in that field. Only problem was I found dating coeds much more satisfying than teaching them. So now decades later, I'm happily retired, and edit sociopolitical geography articles on Wikipedia. Mostly high schools, but a bunch of settlement articles too. I love this country, and believe for the most part, its a great place. My biggest thing here is banishing the promotional use of this great website,a never ending task anymore. If I can help, I'm about. This has been a refreshing conversation. If you doubt that, look up the page. Thanks for the good talk and the good feelings. Sometimes it feels like trying to smell the color 9 around here. John from Idegon (talk) 05:15, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Berkley, Michigan

Hi John, I wanted to jump in on the source discussion and hopefully get some feedback from you as you seem to know what you're talking about. You recently critiqued and reverted an edit of mine to a city page, Berkley, Michigan, about a community festival, for the sources being too impartial and non-encyclopedic. This is fair. Before putting effort into another edit that'll be reverted I wanted to get some feedback on a proposed source. Would you consider this source to be reasonable and encyclopedic? Naturally I'll rewrite anything I write on the page to reflect that which is expressed in the source as what is on Wikipedia needs to be sourced, but before doing that I want to verify it won't be immediately reverted, as I'm sure you can understand that is frustrating for a new editor. Thanks for your help and feedback. It's critical, but I respect that and understand your desire to help keep Wikipedia a highly reliable resource.

Link for Proposed Source, Balger86 (talk) 17:58, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay, Balger86. That should be ok for simply the existence of the festival. Please keep in mind that Wikipedia is not a travel guide when you write your entry. This week has been a zoo. Hope things find you well in Metro Detroit. Things in Metro Boise are way too hot. John from Idegon (talk) 05:53, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

List of head teachers at Lady Eleanor Holles School

John, you have deleted this. I have queried it at Talk:Lady Eleanor Holles School. Could you please respond there? thanks, Rhanbury (talk) 07:25, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

I know very well what I did, thank you, and as any experienced editor I have the article and its talk page watch listed. There is no need to notify me on my talk page that you've started a discussion. I expected you would. You didn't notify me you edit warred it back into the article without consensus, and I reverted that. One more instance of that and I'll be asking for a topic ban for you. There is really no need for you to post on my talk page. Content discussion belongs on the article's talk. John from Idegon (talk) 08:45, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

St. Louis University High School

I have semi protected the page and warned the IP about civility. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:51, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

I've been trying to trim that puff piece for three years now. There are two private schools in middle America that could easily be brought to at least GA level, if only the kiddies and the alumni could be persuaded to leave the articles the hell alone. This is one; Montgomery Bell Academy is the other. John from Idegon (talk) 03:56, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Political biased

Political biased I suggest that you stop interfering in perfectly fine articles just because of my political beliefs as seen on my page I hope you don’t continue you rampage on my articles because it is getting ridiculous. Colored (talk) 22:10, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

You've now made unfounded and unsupported accusations of political bias against at least two editors, myself and Reddogsix. If you do it again, it will be the last time, and I cannot promise you that you may have already done it for the last time. Dude, I have no associations with the Dallas area whatsoever. I did visit Texas a few times in the 60s (Hemisfair was a great experience). I have no dicernable political agenda on Wikipedia, where, except for reverting vandalism, I've never edited a political article. You're miles off base, and it will not be tolerated. Got it?

I have absolutely no clue why you are falsely accusing me of bias, but you stated specifically why you were accusing Reddogsix. It was over his completely proper and needed nomination of William D. Tate, an article you recreated against policy after it was deleted at AfD. I saw that article prior to its deletion. It was barely parsable, not to mention coming nowhere near showing notability. That, coupled with the numerous speedy deleted, deleted and prodded articles shown on your talk page, and your ridiculous accusations (going all the way back to your ludicrous suggestion that somehow Materialscientist's username was somehow improper) caused me (and apparently RD6 too) to review your edit history, where, lo and behold, we both discovered copyright violations. I'm not going to decieve you here, Colored. I'm firmly convinced you don't belong here, and it hasn't got a damn thing to do with you being a Republican. You're incompetent. WP:CIR. If an administrator doesn't see this and toss the banhammer, I'll take you to a noticeboard and request it. John from Idegon (talk) 00:35, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Request for review

Could you review a article i wrote, Bridges Preparatory School, to ensure neutrality, as i do have a conflict of interest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nolan Perry (talk • contribs) 22:41, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

James S. Rickards High School Page

Hey John from Idegon,

I just began editing Wikipedia today, and while I know that I am relatively inexperienced with the expectations of the site, I'm confused as to why you removed the club list that I edited from the Rickards high school page. The original list of clubs had been up for years, and when I added a few recently created clubs at my school, you took all the clubs down because I didn't reference a source. When I did add a link to a source for each club, you took all of them down again, saying that no one cares about the clubs Rickards offers. I then looked at the Wikipedia schools portal, which listed some good school pages as examples, and they all included lists of clubs and other extra curricular activities. What makes the Rickards page different? Also why did you remove the club list but not the athletics list (which did not cite any sources)?

Emma Hanley (talk) 23:41, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Hi, Emma Hanley. Thank you for stopping by. A new editor who stops to ask questions is a delight to me. Many people have misconceptions about what Wikipedia is and how it works. Likely, and very understandably, that probably includes you. Many if not most cling to those misconceptions like gold and don't last long. The smart ones ask. You're on the right track. Thanks.

I'll leave you some information on your talk page to allow you to delve into it further, but let me briefly explain what Wikipedia is. Wikipedia is an 19 year old online, user-editable general encyclopedia. Encyclopedias are by nature tertiary. That means that what you find here should be derrived from and cited to reliable secondary sources. That also means what you just know cannot be used at all, and for the most part, what the subject of an article says about themselves is not usable either. The core guidence for how Wikipedia should work can be found by learning the Five pillars.

Notice I mentioned above that Wikipedia is 19 years old, and that I also used the word "should" several times? Up until a few years ago (about 2012), even Wikipedians didn't take Wikipedia all that seriously. But over the past few years, it has become obvious that due to the fact that we have no labor costs and overall provide a pretty good product, we are going to put traditional paper encyclopedias out of business. So, emphasis on proper sourcing has greatly increased. We have a responsibility to adequately replace those paper encyclopedias. Since no student anywhere is allowed to cite Wikipedia (not due to accuracy issues, but because we are dynamic. What an article says when you cite it might not be what it says when the paper is graded), we must provide sources that can be cited.

Now, why did I remove the uncited clubs section, and not the uncited athletics section? I know for a 100% certainty that I can find reliable secondary sources for the athletic section. Sports in US high schools is a topic of general interest, and is frequently written about. It is also regulated by a state level sanctioning body (FHSAA in Florida), and they have information that can be cited. Clubs are not of general interest and are seldom written about. A listing of clubs is of little interest outside the school community. Note I did not remove the entire list because you failed to cite your changes. As an editor, you have a watchlist. I have mine set to automatically add any article I edit. At some point, I've edited the article in question. So when you changed the article, your change appeared on my watchlist. When I looked at it, I noticed the entire list was unsourced, so I removed it. Again, the thing where Wikipedia wasn't focused as strongly on article quality as it is now.

If you are looking to work further on this school's article, I'd suggest you look for things that are differentiating enough that non local sources have written about it. If there are competitive academic teams, for example, you should be able to find some sort of secondary source for them, if only the body that sanctions their competition. Please take a look at the school article guidelines. You'll find some guidence there on how school articles should be composed and laid out. Thanks again. John from Idegon (talk) 03:08, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Apology

I am sorry for my unprecedented bigotry against you my araritic behavior must stop And I completely understand we’re you are coming from. I had no right to do what I did please take this sensor apology and I promise on my faith that I will never respond like this again Colored (talk) 02:01, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Cut tragedy struck paragraph - US

Hello, I cut the tragedy struck paragraph on the page University School because, despite the tragedy of suicide, this matter cannot be connected to the school. The author of the cited op-ed, Barry Shlachter, writes of an incident at the school, in which a boy Steve Andrews had his hair cut by upper classmen. Shlachter writes: "I don't know how much, or how little, the incident affected him, or if the nonpunishment of the graduating seniors added to what he might have felt. We never discussed it. But I sensed that a spark inside him died." In fact, it was only after Andrews left US, "attended Shaker Heights High School, then briefly went to college out West before dropping out...received his draft notice, and the day or so before he was to report to the Army, he took a pistol from his home and put an end to his young life." Despite having cited this information, it cannot be tied directly to the school. I attended US and was looking for something on their Wikipedia page, happened upon this, and decided to read further (as Wikipedia causes many people to do). Upon reading the article I realized that it cannot be directly connected to the school. In fact, Schlacter says this himself writing: "There is no way of knowing if the bullying contributed to Steve's downward spiral and suicide. While I cannot prove a connection, my heart links them." The tragedy purported by this article never struck the school as was claimed by User:UniversitySchool08. Thank you Aeroplanepics0112 (talk) 17:30, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Speedy deletion declined: Matthew Huffman

Hello John from Idegon. I am just letting you know that I declined the speedy deletion of Matthew Huffman, a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: directing notable films indicates significance. Thank you. SoWhy 07:39, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

freeland, pa edit

Hey John, thank you for the explanation. I'm new to Wikipedia so apologies for my ignorance. I will create separate notable person page and resubmit. Thank you and cheers. --jochexum — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jochexum (talk • lcontribs) 02:34, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

I'd strongly suggest you not waste your time on that yet, Jochexum. Not every subject qualifies to have an article. For people, there are several dozen separate notability guidelines. Your guy would need to meet at least one of them. There are no special notability guidelines that apply to business executives, so he'd have to meet WP:ANYBIO. To do that you'll need to show (and properly add to your article as inline citations), that the guy you are writing about has been written about in:

1. multiple (depends on the quality and depth of the sources, but usually three or more)
2. reliable (blue words are links),
3. WP:SECONDARY sources,
4. academically independent (not affiliated with him, any of his companies, any employer, friends or family, and not based on press releases from any of the above or primarily consisting of his words ((that's to say, no interviews with him, altho journalistic or academic analysis of same are acceptable))) of the subject.

That is a monumental task for an editor so new a bot is signing their messages for them. That's not an insult, we were all new once. I had over 1,000 edits before I wrote my first article. So please familiarize yourself with notability by reading the links, surf articles and find places where you can make factual corrections and add references, read WP:My first article , and ask questions! Most Wikipedians are happy to help. John from Idegon (talk) 03:28, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

FYI

This. It's an informal advice piece rather than a uw. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:23, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Words fail me

Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Request narrowing of ban. And on a different note, I hope you're on the road to recovery. Meters (talk) 00:04, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Thoughts about these two schools

Hi John, hope things are well. Still sorting out unsupported parameters, but came across this article: McCluer South-Berkeley High School. I've already removed unsupported parameters from it and added a stub tag. But the article mentions that it replaced "Berkeley High School in Berkeley, which had closed in December 2003 due to expansion of the Lambert-St. Louis International Airport." After checking the book reference supplied, it says that the students were transferred to the new McCluer South-Berkeley High School. After looking at this news article, it says "Berkeley High School was apart of the Ferguson-Florissant School District. Berkeley High School closed it's doors in 2004 due to expansion of Lambert-St. Louis Airport in January 2004. Berkeley High School relocated to Ferguson, Missouri and is now called McCluer South-Berkeley High School." Do you think it would be best to merge Berkeley High School into McCluer South-Berkeley High School? Both of the articles are stubs and I think they are pretty much the same schools. Please let me know, thank you Steven (Editor) (talk) 17:30, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Backed up pretty bad today. I'll get back to you soon. John from Idegon (talk) 00:42, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Hi John, not heard from you for a while, hope all is well. I know you're busy and not sure if you may have forgotten about this, but if you could at these two schools when you can and let me know, would really appreciate your help, thank you Steven (Editor) (talk) 16:48, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Sorry....still not up to snuff, health wise, busy season at work....yada, yada, yada.....I'm just lame and I apologize. I'll look later today. John from Idegon (talk) 17:16, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

It's all good, no rush, when you can, I greatly appreciate your help. I'm thinking of prodding Hayes Mission School - a school in Liberia. It's completely unsourced except one; an NCES reference to a school in America called St Augustine Preparatory School, but used in this article to reference enrollment, teachers and ratio - strange. There's also a US number in the infobox and two pictures in the article of the founders and VP and director of operations - both uploaded by a user called "Hayesmission" - seems to be a COI editor who has also made a series of edits to the article in 2010 and 2009 when the user created the article - the user has not made any other edits to this article or Wikipedia since. The website given doesn't work, and I've tried searching this school on Google and can't really find anything, except a business listing on Go Africa Online. Should I PROD this? Steven (Editor) (talk) 17:59, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

I'd just redirect it to the community it is in, apply {{r from school}} and be done with it. John from Idegon (talk) 19:25, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Done, thank you. Please ping when you've had a chance to look at the two article, really appreciate your help Steven (Editor) (talk) 15:43, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Douglas Gonzales at Catholic High

Hello: I've been trying to add District Attorney Douglas Gonzales to the notable alumni section of Catholic High School's Wikipedia page. I linked as reference a document which names him as an alumnus of the class of 1955, and even linked to Judge Gonzales' own Wikipedia page. What more or clearer documentation do you need? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.187.168.162 (talk) 05:39, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

An alumni association would not qualify as a reliable source under our policies, and it is questionable as to whether that is even a published source. What is needed is a reliable (see link just previous) SECONDARY source vetting his attendance at the institution. Keep in mind that the encyclopedia article about this school is not for this school, and that all edits to it must conform to Wikipedia policy. Per WP:ALUMNI, an entry on a notable alumni list must be notable (he is) and must have reliable sources connecting him to the institution. That is what is needed here. If you can find a newspaper, magazine, book, academic journal, or TV or radio news source that mentions his attendance at the school, my objection evaporates. Perhaps the court has a biography of him that mentions his education? John from Idegon (talk) 05:49, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Emmet County, Michigan

If you didn't already see my reply on the talk page, it essentially says no worries, I understand, and that I ended up splitting the Corporations section to the page on Emmet County, where Petoskey is located. I found more locations in the county rather than the county seat. Does what I've found seem legitimate enough to count as a section without being removed/reverted? It explains how some of the county's top employers have helped boost the economy of the region (although that isn't explicitly stated in the cited sources, it can be implied given that some of these companies employ over 200 people, and one comes close to 1,000).

Redditaddict69 (talk) 01:02, 12 July 2018 (UTC)Redditaddict69

It must be my day for catching new editors working on Michigan subjects. I feel greatly blessed and highly favored to have gotten two guys both wanting to do this right! I agree the county article is the best place. But one thing we never do as editors here is apply our analysis to the sources we are using. That's what you do in a term paper. Encyclopedias are tertiary. That means two things for us as editors. First, we do not write about the subject of the article; rather, we write about what has been written about the subject in reliable sources. Further, we simply report on what the sources say by paraphrasing them; we never add our analysis nor do we combine what two sources report to deduce a conclusion. WP:OR and WP:SYNTH cover this in more detail. On point for this conversation, you are on the right track, but just going about it a bit wrong. The content you're going for is valuable; we just gotta help you present it in an encyclopedic manner.

Problems:

• Synth/OR, covered above.
• References - they are the most important thing, not an afterthought. Any problems with writing or wiki-markup can be fixed; without sources, there is nothing to work from. I hope you are using the older source editing interface rather than Visual Editor. I'll leave you some instructions on how to properly do a citation on your talk. If they do not work out or you have problems I'll try to help you, but til them, at least copy and paste the entire URL for your references. Most are not.
• There are guidelines for broad classes of articles such as cities. Counties do not actually have one, but the one for cities adapts well to counties. Point here is, your section title should probably be "Economy".

Again, thanks for asking, Redditaddict69. And thanks for leaving me a link to the county's article. No thanks for making me homesick tho. Why don't you work on it some and we can talk later? John from Idegon (talk) 01:37, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

--- Aside from completing correct source citing (and I just copy+paste link, visual editor can be annoying), I've fixed just about everything for the county article. I followed the city template/guidelines, read over OR and Synth, and fixed one or two citations. Should be good enough to look over now. Redditaddict69 (talk) 02:25, 12 July 2018 (UTC)Redditaddict69

You're next. See below. When it rains it pours. Another Michigan reference! John from Idegon (talk) 02:33, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Dakota HS

Hi! Me again. So, I saw all the edits you made to the Dakota High School page, and while I really am grateful for you having taken time out to proofread my first article, I do have one question: why is MHSAA a bad source for enrollment figures? Also, on a semi-related note: in the search bar, "Dakota High School (Michigan)" still doesn't show up in the search bar, under all the categories its in, there's still Dakota High School in italics in addition to the new page, which redirects to the Chippewa Valley Schools page, and in the Macomb County high schools navbox, its link shows up in pale red text instead of the normal blue, so is there a way to fix these things or do they start to go to normal after time? Finchwidget (talk) 02:05, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) -_____$#4$(#$"'!!!!! Gah. I lost most of what I wrote. Apologies for the negative stuff below, but it's gotta be dealt with. I'll answer your questions and be all nice and positive after I fetch the link needed for the below. Shit.

That should answer your questions, and if you have more, please ask. However, there is unfortunately a big problem with the article. As it stands right now, believe it or not, it is a copyright violation. Everything on Wikipedia is copyrighted by the contributors that added the material, but is released for any form of reuse, private or public, commercial or free, even including modification, under a CC BY-SA 3.0 License. There is only one requirement: attribution. That's accomplished simply by linking the article or file you are reusing. Here's where the problem comes in. When you cut and pasted the content from the school district article, you broke the link to the page history containing the individual attributions. You should have noted in the edit summaries for both the cut and the paste, where the content came from and where it was going. Also, there are templates that must be placed on both articles' talk pages. My phone is being cranky, so I'll add a link to the page with the instructions next. Pretty sure you can just shine on the edit summary on Dakota, but I don't think there have been any further edits on the district article, so I'd make a null edit (add a space somewhere) and put the recommended edit summary there. Link to follow. FYI, I'd have screwed that up too, but I learned about it somewhere and have done it maybe twice in 7 years, spinning notable alumni lists off to a "List of alumni from xxx High School" article. No worries, Finchwidget. If life were all sunshine and roses, we'd never know when we got it good. John from Idegon (talk) 03:34, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

The instructions for content forking, which is what you did by cut and pasting from the district article are at WP:CWW. I'll re-answer your questions above and if you haven't got the legal schmeigel bullshit done I'll take a crack at it, or go find a tweeker that actually enjoys that stuff. Gah. John from Idegon (talk) 03:42, 12 July 2018 (UTC) (I'm not pissed at you, just at technology and bullshit in general. I need to go for a walk)

Oy

Finchwidget, through no fault in any way of yours, this has turned into a Class A, fully blown, nuclear cluster flying on a rolling doughnut thru a minefield of clusters dating back to the winter of 2007.

So...as you correctly identified, the italic title in the categories is was a redirect to the school district. What you probably didn't know was that until February 2007, it was an article on the school you created an article about today. At that time, for unknown reasons, someone decided that the content belonged in the school district article and moved it, not leaving behind the templates mentioned above. So, I nominated that article redirect for deletion to make way to move your article to that title, as it currently is the only school in the country by that name. Well, it turns out, that's not quite the case (or is it?). If you look at the next section below, apparently we have an article titled Dakota High School (Illinois). Only problem is, that is no longer a high school and that is no longer its name. So, bottom line for you is, assuming Eastmain created the redirect, the italic entry should be gone from the categories.

The template will have to be fixed manually, and I'll gladly do that. When it is correct, the school name should appear in bold black on the instance of the template transcluded to the article. There are also at least one "List of" articles that will need to be updated.

Assuming you are talking about Wikipedia search, the "Go" button takes you to the article. I'm guessing you are right about the predictive text being a bot task, and if that's the case it should be done soon. If you are talking about Google, I have no idea when their worm will find it, but it was reviewed and the "NOINDEX" attribute removed before I ever looked at it.

I'll answer your question about enrollment sources in a few. John from Idegon (talk) 06:10, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

The template is fine, and I don't see that it was edited recently, so an old version must have been loading when you were viewing the page. The reason templates are used (partially anyway) is so they do not have to reload every time you call the webpage. The article itself is actually a template too. If it still looks weird, clear the cache on your browser. It isn't coded exactly right, so Dakota appears in blue when you view the template on Dakota's article. It's a hassle to fix, so I'mma let that slide. Not good at template syntax.

Enrollment. We never use athletic sanctioning bodies for enrollment. There are two reasons, one based in statistical methodology, the other accuracy. There is in place on Dakota now the full set of enrollment related stats that should be on all US school articles. Numbers included are the enrollment, an even field number for teachers called FTE, student/teacher ratio and racial/sex demographics. These numbers interrelate to each other and therefore should come from the same dataset. The only piece the athletic sanctioning body gives is enrollment. NCES is the preferred source as it gives an even field dataset across state lines for the whole country. The downside with NCES is there is generally a two year lag. The 17-18 school year is over, but NCES is still reporting 15-16. They'll start updating to 16-17 in November and finish in March. In comparison, Michigan DOE now has 17-18 available, as of July 1. Indiana DOE will have 18-19 available before the end of the year. Because of that lag, we also accept (reluctantly) state DOE figures, as long as they track the same data points as NCES. Enrollment is obviously an estimate anyway, a statistical model. In any school, enrollment is dynamic. Kids quit, die, move weekly. For decades, since I was a kid, the official enrollment number has been set by an actual count taken on the Thursday of the seventh week of school. That number is hugely important as it is the basis on which both federal and state financial assistance is distributed to the schools. The other reason we do not use MHSAA (and the other state sanctioning organizations) is the number they provide is not the actual enrollment, but the athletic eligible enrollment. It includes students who do not attend the school, such as students zoned to the school who are homeschooled, or attend private schools that do not offer athletics. They are eligible to participate in athletics at their assigned public school. Also in districts that have 10-12 high schools, it includes all the inbound freshmen.

Thanks for an interesting day. It took me places I've never been in Wikipedia and I've learned some things. BTW, I took the Stockbridge Junior / Senior High School article live. It still needs work if you want to look at the talk page there and see if you can dig up an answer. John from Idegon (talk) 08:21, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Yikes, I had no idea that one little copy/paste could blow up into such a big issue. Thanks for taking care of it, and also for answering all my questions! Finchwidget (talk) 13:11, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Dakota High School (Illinois)

Since there is a Dakota High School (Illinois) in Illinois, I have created a disambiguation page at Dakota High School. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 04:46, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

That's good, Eastmain. Only problem is that article is considerably out of date, and that school is now a 7-12 school, named (per both the school district and NCES) Dakota Junior/Senior High School. And to think, I couldda had a V-8. John from Idegon (talk) 05:33, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Franklin Academy Proposed Deletion

Hi John, I was quite surprised by your "assessment" you have given me in my article, Franklin Academy Pembroke Pines Middle and High School. If you don't remember let me remind you that I posted this article on the Schools Wikiproject requesting for an assessment (which I had thought and expected to be an assessment on the Wikiproject in my article's Talk section. For example, assessing the article as a stub or rating the importance) However, I did not know that an assessment would end up being a proposed deletion without a collaboration which I do feel is very unfair. Now, this was the first real article that I have created outside of Sandbox, prior to publishing this article I've read the criteria for class rating and thought that it would be good enough to at least be a low Start article or at least a "good" Stub article. Also, I wasn't sure if you read my post on the talk of this article but I did mention that, "...I need help finding sources and secondary sources that are not primary sources..." I also asked on the Assessment Request section of Wikiproject Schools to "...Get feedback..." and also I asked for help if someone could help me in this article. On my talk page you stated, " Lacks secondary sources, is at least 4 years away from being a high school." I would like some clarification on the "four years from being a high school" and what exactly that means because I don't know. Once again, John, I asked for an assessment and help and I didn't find it helpful that this was nominated for a deletion. I believe that as a "newbie" and someone who is new to Wikipedia editing should be given a chance on their articles... think about your child if he/she created an article about their school which was something they were proud of. Let's say the article lacked secondary sources like mine, and they needed help so what was a better idea than asking the Wikiprojects for help to assess the article and to help them collaboratively to improve their article? Suddenly, a respected administrator such as yourself (which I also respect) comes and proposes the article for a deletion without the requested help and without the assessment or without anything on the talks page! John... I think that if we could get more people such as yourself to help do more extensive research for secondary sources, I believe that this could become at least a C rated article if we try. Thank you, Yanjipy (talk) 01:44, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Yanjipy, I'm sorry feel this is unfair, but as yet, this school doesn't meet our notability guidelines for schools. Schools are rather a unique case for notability on Wikipedia. Most quasi-governmental agencies need to meet the rather stringent standard at WP:ORG. Some schools don't. Those schools that don't are schools that graduate students. This one doesn't, yet. Any other schools must meet ORG. To meet ORG, you must show that the school has been written about in detail in multiple reliable sources, totally independent of the subject, and at least some of those sources must be with wide ranging geographic availability or from a geographically distant location. You have no reliable secondary sources. None. Don't get me wrong. As soon as you can produce an independent source showing that there is a graduating class enrolled (3 years if I figured it right), it will be notable. Keep in mind encyclopedias are tertiary. That means we don't write about the school, rather, we write about what is written about the school. There is not enough written about it yet to sustain an article. That's why we have the standard of inclusion in Wikipedia known as notability. Not every subject can have an article. This one can, just not yet. Perhaps you can show it meets ORG. But you remarked on a dearth of secondary sources for it. If you wish, I'll be happy to move it to draft space so you can work on it free from worry about deletion. If you think I'm completely wrong, you can remove the PROD. And you have 10 days before deletion even if you don't remove the PROD. I'm all in favor of covering every "Notable" school in the world. However, it is up to the article creator to show notability. Perhaps there are strong newspaper sources about how the school started. Perhaps it's been written up in academic education journals. That would certainly do it. I apologise if you feel you've been somehow wronged, but I've got to tell you that your feelings must be coming from a miscommunication of our policies, something that is very understandable. Our policies are confusing and massive, and sometimes contradictory. But I certainly wouldn't PROD a viable article. Let me know if you want it draftified. I'll know if you deprod it as it's watchlisted. Again, I'm sorry you feel wronged here...but truthfully, if I hadn't PRODD'D it, I would have lowered its rating to stub. Due to its age, there isn't even enough possible sourcing for it to be higher. A history section is required for a start rating for a school, and a school this young has no history. Honest truth...most US schools do not have the potential to be even "C" rating, much less higher. Only the oldest, or the most elite private schools have the potential to be good or featured articles. Most of the ones currently marked as such wouldn't even keep that rating if reassessed. John from Idegon (talk) 02:27, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

John, thank you for your long and acceptable response, I would gladly take the offer of you moving this to a draft so that I won't have to worry about this deletion, I am only worried about losing the article and its data which I don't want to. Aside from this is it possible if you could give me a watered down tutorial (from yourself) on how to build a great article? I would deeply appreciate it if you can "virtually tutor" me on how to make a Good school article, we can start with any given school. Yanjipy (talk) 15:52, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Yanjipy, I have dePRODed the article and redirected it to Southwest Ranches, Florida where it is adequately mentioned. It will now remain a redirect until it meets notability criteria. That is the kindest thing I can do and complies with policy. The source code is available in the history but I would advise against creating a draft which would be declined and deleted. I fail to understand how the article was given a 'high importance' rating not only is it a small, very new, non-notable school, but it is located in a small settlement that was only recently incorporated. Major flaws in the original article were that the author also assumed that Wikipedia is only read in the US and there was no mention of the school district or governing body. As soon as the school operates a Grade 12 class or becomes notable for some major event reported on a national scale, the redirect can be converted back to an article.For more information hosw to create an articleabout your school, please see WP:WPSCH/AG. In the meantime, we need help on Wikipedia with literally 1,000s of articles p- don't hesitate to dig in. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 22:50, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Kudpung, Thank you very much and I very much appreciate it! I think this will conclude this case... Hopefully. ขอขอบคุณ! ฉันพูดไทยได้ Yanjipy (talk) 23:00, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Yanjipy นั่นน่าสนใจ โชคดีครับ Happy editing! Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 23:20, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Yanjipy, my plan was to use this article to work on some fundamental things with you in a draft. Would you like to go forward with that, with it in your userspace? I think only you and I have edited it, so there do not appear to be any attribution issues with just copying the last version into a userpage for you. It appears from the NCES stats on the article that the only grade was 8 in 15-16, so the first senior class should start in school year 19-20, ya? That means that the article could be taken live in just about a year. We can work on basics with this article, and as you get more proficient, I've got a couple articles identified that should be very doable to get to GA level. We could work on them a bit down the line! Kudpung knows which ones I'm talking about. We may need some help from him. John from Idegon (talk) 04:44, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

I just went ahead and did it. It is at User:Yanjipy/Franklin Academy Pembroke Pines Middle and High School. If you don't want it, just mark it for speedy deletion. John from Idegon (talk) 04:57, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

John, Kudpung, thank you very much and I look forward to working with these GA articles. Yanjipy (talk) 17:06, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Lane Tech

Hi John, I recently edited my school's wikipedia page for Lane Technical High School. I included numerous new pieces of information with sources that were applicable, such as referencing extracurriculars and classes that the school offers and I provided the proper citations, showing that the school actually offers these things on the school website and course caralog. Unsure why it was all deleted. Is there at least a way I can fix the citations because hours of my work was deleted and I'm sure I can fix whatever issues there are. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Apgreenberg (talk • contribs) 02:02, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Apgreenberg, Wikipedia encyclopedia articles on a school are not for the school to use to communicate. This is not part of the school's social media portfolio. A school has a website with which to communicate things like that. Encyclopedias are tertiary. That means that rather than writing about the school, what we do here is write about what others have written about the school. Additionally, there are guidelines for what should and shouldn't be included in a school article. They can be found at WP:SCH/AG. Thanks. John from Idegon (talk) 04:36, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

I see that some of the things I posted were in violation of the guideline, but I don't believe it all was. Mentioning the addition of a baseball stadium is part of the campus of the school which is an acceptable category regarding the campus on the guideline school wiki. So is briefly mentioning some programs that set it apart in the district such as having an aquaponics studio or a massive 3d printer lab, all of which have been written about by news media. I'm not sure why these things are inappropriate to include. They seem to follow the guideline of notable things about the school.

Again, if you have reliable secondary sources, your content may be appropriate. Without reliable secondary sources, it likely isn't. So follow WP:BRD. Make an edit. If no one removes it, it's probably a good addition. If someone does remove it, start a discussion on the article talk page, not a user talk page... content is decided by consensus, which you form by discussion based in reliable sources and Wikipedia policies and guidelines on the article's talk page. Either you will sway your opposition with your arguments, your opposition will sway you and you'll drop it, you'll reach a compromise that can be agreed on, or the discussion will deadlock. In the latter case, there are means available to settle disputes. But remember always, the bottom line on article content is consensus. Oh, also, please sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes at the end (~~~~). This will automatically add your username, a link to your talk page and a timestamp. Thanks. John from Idegon (talk) 16:59, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Why unknown and unprofessional people's opinions on Wikipedia?

Like i Said Carroll was not economist nor had a evidence to prove that he had knowledge to back up his opinions that about MLM and Amway. also Erik German is unknown writer who just wrote a single book which is about his subjective opinion. His book is more like biography)

Expecially Carroll believed Amway is an MLM, and that MLMs are pyramid schemes. No evidence for his assertion. Carroll’s conclusion, based on who knows what: There are 10 times more people losing money than making money — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.98.37.103 (talk) 12:18, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Houston, Alaska

Excuse me, sir, but having been working extensively on demographic/population/history of hundreds of Alaskan places, I denote at the top of each of the demographics section when said locale made its first appearance on the census, followed by its date of incorporation or if it has another status such as being a census-designated place.

In the instance of Houston, because it incorporated in 1966, those looking up this location might wonder if it appeared on the census prior to this date as an unincorporated community (since the overwhelming majority of communities in Alaska were unincorporated and still appeared on the census). Houston was a rare exception that it did not appear on the census prior to its incorporation, so listing "it first appeared on the 1970 census, having incorporated in 1966" is a relevant fact and point. Regards DJ Jones74 (talk) 20:59, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

So why are you doing that? Articles on settlements should contain the same relative data, no matter where in the country they are located. That's why there are guidelines for them. This isn't a free form writing exercise. It is a reference, and as such, articles on similar subjects should be layed out in a similar fashion. Every incorporated community came on the census roll as an incorporated community at some point. That date is the first 0 year after the community's incorporation. For every incorporated community in the US. The incorporation date should be in the history, and also the infobox. The census is always in the 0 years. It's kinda like saying, in this community, the sun comes up and it gets warmer. It just isn't pertinent data. Is there anything in the guideline for settlement articles in the United States that indicates that datapoint should be included in the demographics section? Why is it particularly important for Alaska? The fact that you chose to take on an unneeded task does not make the task needed. I'm sorry you've wasted your time. John from Idegon (talk) 21:12, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

You apparently read nothing that I wrote above and your unhelpful sarcasm isn't appreciated. I will revert your reversion again. Thank you for wasting my time. DJ Jones74 (talk) 22:16, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

---

Sir, obviously you have some sort of serious mental issue related to being a control freak of articles that add 2 sentences that somehow send you into a delirious frenzy of unwarranted removals and insults and time-wasting of actual productive members of Wikipedia.

Now, let's try this again: I'm not going to take this to a debate page. You can do that. There is no dispute. You are the dispute. And you can use my argument here to get a "ruling", since I have no idea whom to appeal to in order to rein in out-of-control individuals like yourself.

I've edited hundreds of articles for this exact same purpose. My goal is, for every populated place in America, to go alphabetically state by state and then in alphabetical order of place doing the following:

One: To obtain all population figures for a given locale to its earliest date via census records.

Two: To publish said info on Wikipedia to give the most COMPREHENSIVE list of information on population figures and status of said locales.

Three: To research and publish any and all names and or name changes reported by the census from its earliest appearance.

Four: To research and publish any early racial data on said locales, in the case of Alaska for 1880-1890.

Five: To encapsulate said info alongside the historic population box at the top of the demographics section.

As an example: "Anytown first appeared on the 1880 U.S. Census as the unincorporated village of "Whoville." -cite ref link for 1880 census here- It reported 50 citizens including 25 Whites, 23 Blacks and 2 Others. In 1890, Whoville reported as "Wheretown." It reported 60 citizens incuding 40 Blacks and 20 Whites. -cite ref link for 1890 census here- In 1900 through 1930, it continued to report as "Wheretown." In 1933, Wheretown changed its name to the present Anytown and formally incorporated that year as a town. It has continued to report on every successive census.

This is the same model and form I have followed for every locale in Alaska from Adak to Yakutat, and I am presently re-reviewing any locales I may have failed to update with information over the past 14 months that I personally collected, researched and retrieved.

Again, you had no cause whatsoever - none - to remove a two sentence encapsulation that explains, #1, that Houston first appeared on the 1970 U.S. Census. FACT. #2, that it first appeared as an incorporated city (and hence, never appeared on the prior censuses as an unincorporated village, for which you were previously informed that most locales in Alaska WERE of this status when they would first appear on census records).

That the mere appearance of those two sentences must trigger you in some form or fashion to behave in the ugly, abusive, arrogant, condescending and frankly, totalitarian and unwarranted manner seriously calls into question your right to edit or revert anyone's articles here at Wikipedia.

To the last, I want you to answer explicitly what is factually false or in error about those two sentences that necessitates their removal. What specific references do you wish to have added to them ? Do you wish to have a reference to the 1960 Alaska Census returns proving that Houston is not on the rolls and/or do you wish to have a reference to the 1970 Alaska Census returns to prove that it is, and that it is an incorporated community ?

These are not unsourced facts anymore than any of the hundreds of others of articles edited. These are all well researched, painstakingly so, from each census from 1880 onwards in the case of Alaska. In some cases, I located figures that were accidentally typed in in error from other Wikipedia editors and corrected, all done, again, by reviewing the SOURCE materials - the census returns.

The fact you called my addition "only tangentially relative to the section added" means that this addition WAS relative to the section, hence proving that you removed it on a personal feeling. That is not a legitimate reason. I'm sure I could find countless entries where I "FEEL" I don't like it and remove it, and that by all accounts would rightfully get my account suspended here for abuse.

Your last remarks as such: "It's really kind of "D'oah" that they would appear in the next census as a city." As explained to you, the two sentences were to CLARIFY that Houston did not previously appear on a census (1960, in this example) as an unincorporated village. The whole point was that its first appearance on the census WAS as an incorporated city, which is unlike most of Alaska's communities.

Your final initial reply: "You were expecting a seal?" I have no idea what this sarcastic reply has to do with anything or the situation at hand, and is an utterly unprofessional and unhelpful comment.

Try offering productive and helpful comments to the person if something is lacking a "source" as you see it. A simple, "you referenced the 1970 census in your edit... could you post a reference link to the census records in question ?"

See, simple. And you could've avoided all this ugliness with a simple private reply as another poster did when I found a mistake in the population figure and they wished to know the source.

Respectfully, DJ Jones74 (talk) 14:30, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

Noblesvile High School

I thought the article seemed reliable but I guess not? I’m sorry (Bigs7 (talk) 20:23, 20 July 2018 (UTC))

cooley law school additions

First attempt to add info on Innocence Project was told using Cooley.edu as a footnote source was unacceptable "bragging" by Cooley. Then I used U of Michigan Law as a footnote source & was told I need a secondary source. What do you mean by "secondary source?"

On scholarship info for Cooley I used www.cooleyadmissions. What would be a secondary for Cooley itself on this matter?

Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CC04:CD19:EC64:6008:8EA:2521 (talk) 04:39, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

Questioning About Proposed Deletions

John, I was viewing articles and recently on WikiProject Schools and found this article called Franklin Academy (North Carolina). Since Bbb23 directed me to you for deletions and other concerns, would this article be a good example for a proposed deletion? Yanjipy (talk) 14:43, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Are you accepting Adoptions?

Hi John from Idegon, since I'm more familiar with you than other Wikipedians I'm wondering if your still accepting adoptions because I now realize I really do need one. Thanks, Yanjipy (talk) 22:37, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

July 2018

Hey there, I'd like to inquire as to why you reverted my last edit to Mark R. Isfeld Senior Secondary School, in spite of it being accurately and painstakingly sourced and factual? I'm not going to revert it until I've got your side, out of common courtesy and to avoid violating WP:3RR, however I am a little bit disgruntled as I thought I had done solid work. Fhsig13 (talk) 02:44, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

You were wrong. You haven't done solid work, and that has all been explained in the edit summaries and the warnings left on your page. You are doing exactly the same thing that got you blocked. Despite being told multiple times the reference you were proffering was not sufficient, you repeatedly reinserted it without trying to clarify it, or even enquiring what the problem was. I properly formatted the coordinates template you added, you reverted me. You are BATTLEGROUNDing again, and that is what got you blocked. I do not have the patience of Ad Orientem. Very simply, your work is incompetent. I cannot take a hammer and pound it through your skull. It's on you to figure it out. John from Idegon (talk) 02:54, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

File:Franklin Pierce High School logo.jpg

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Cuba, Kentucky

You reverted the previous edit at Cuba, Kentucky with the suggestion to add it to the high school page, or make one. The high school is now defunct and is not notable except for the basketball achievement. Any suggestions? Kintpuash (talk) 03:02, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

High schools are generally notable, whether extant or not. Am I off base if I assume it consolidated? The historic school could be covered in the article on the extant school that replaced it. John from Idegon (talk) 03:07, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Presumably that area would now be served by Graves County High School. It does not currently have a page. News sources indicate Cuba High School closed in 1977. Same sources in 1977 suggest the students would transfer to Sedalia which also apparently no longer exists. The remaining county schools apparently consolidated sometime around 1985-86 into Graves County. The Cuba elementary school appears to have closed in 2014. Kintpuash (talk) 03:33, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

You may want to enquire at WT:KENTUCKY, the talk page for WikiProject Kentucky. They may have some better advice for you. If they want to cover it in the community article, I'll defer to their judgment. I didn't read the CJ article you referenced, but Hoosiers was a fictionalized account of Milan High School in Indiana. Sorry, Hoosier born and raised. IU alumni too. Bet you hate me. LOL. John from Idegon (talk) 03:41, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Naw, I reserve hate for a few Boise State opponents. I miss those days. My 1987 7th grade science teacher was an IU alum, and was beaming for weeks. Think it might be reasonable to create a Notable people section with Howie Crittenden, a player on the 1952 team, added as a link? Kintpuash (talk) 04:14, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Found another notable person to add to the stub so taking a stab at it. Kintpuash (talk) 06:09, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

If you're not already aware of it, every article has a "What links here" button on the side bar. That's a good place to look for notable people. John from Idegon (talk) 15:25, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

edits to acton boxbourgh wikipedia page.

John,

We answered your questions on the talk page for the school. If that was incorrect sorry.

You like to cite violations of the wikipedia code of conduct, I believe many folks would think your actions towards me are WikiBulling. That being said I'll put my answers again here.

We responded on the talk page to the acton boxboro page as follows. Please refer to that. I assumed you would look their for your answers. We were asked the following questions "You need to answer a couple questions. First, who is this "we" you keep speaking of? Second, what is your relationship with the subject of the article in question? Your use of a plural pronoun and repeated arguments to the point that the information you are trying to add is important to portray the school in a positive light are indicative of an editor with a connection to the subject of the article"

We is my husband and I. We have a mixture of skills, computer science and writing so we collaborate on many things together. (I have a bachelor's degree from Cornell Univ., he has a Masters in CS.) We like to learn new technologies and thought that Wikipedia would be a fun way to contribute. (We are quickly being discouraged though. May we ask you what your vested interest is in holding back facts about Acton's test scores. Do you not like standardized testing? It seems like you have a particular hostility to this topic. Do you distrust it or not see its value?) We do not work for the school system, or have a vested interest in the schools. Our connection to the town is we have lived in MA since the late 90's and have lived in Acton, MA in the past. Currently we do not reside in that town.

When we looked at the Wikipedia page we noticed that the schools testing data was stale, so we were curious about the current results. When we looked at the current data, it was clear that recent results were note worthy. We, therefore, decided to update the facts. That is all -- we are updating facts that we feel should be out there. We are using public data as our source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mhiggins234 (talk • contribs) 14:38, 24 July 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mhiggins234 (talk • contribs)

I also suggested to Mhiggins234 that the test score results without any mention of ranking in the state would be a preferred approach. Appears did that. I also deleted the older ranking mentions, and some of the other 2012 stuff.David notMD (talk) 01:19, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

I haven't looked a Teahouse today. Did someone clear them up on shared use of an account? Thanks, David notMD! John from Idegon (talk) 01:23, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Not about that. As far as I know, still wife and husband. David notMD (talk) 07:55, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

I did, but on their talkpage, not at Teahouse. Meters (talk) 07:58, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

The possible CIR case

Given the latest posts [1] and [2]) to the thread I don't see how this can go anywhere but to ANI if this user continues. Isn't doing anything wrong; knows what he is doing; doesn't care what experienced editors think or are telling him; refuses mentoring, adoption, or a voluntary topic ban; refuses o discuss this further ... Meters (talk) 22:34, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

While I can understand the desire to do this, I will point out that at least this time around Fhsig13 does at least seem to be willing to follow WP:DR and avoid edit warring as before. This edit still indicates (at least to me) a bit of a shallow understanding of WP:NFCC since even adding the rationales which were missing wouldn't solve things for those particular uses per WP:JUSTONE, but no editing warring ensued after the images were removed once again. The comments made at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dan Dubeau do also seem to indicate at least some change in his/her approach to editing. Fhsig13 shouldn't be expected to agree with everything everyone else posts, but he/she whould be willing to at least accept that sometimes consensus is what it is no matter if it's not what we want it to be. I think tensions are a bit high right now and the Fhsig13 is probably being a bit too defensive on his/her user talk and those post might have been heat of battle type of relapse; it's easy to get defensive when you feel others are ganging up on you on your user talk page. I'm not saying it's OK to do that, just that it's easy to do that; so, maybe just let that user talk page thread die a natural death and just be on the watch for further problems. If Fhsig13 is able to respect a consesus even when he/she doesn't agree with it and figure a way to edit collaboratively with others, then that's a positive step towards being WP:HERE; if not, then there will be no shortage of people starting a discussion about him/her at ANI. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:59, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

I can agree easily with letting it ride, although my reasoning is a bit different. Editors with that know it all attitude generally find a way to foist themselves on their own petards without my help. Hopefully MJ's glass half full attitude will be the outcome for this; if so all the better. However, I belong to the Kiwanis, not the Optimists. John from Idegon (talk) 02:04, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Yes WP:ROPE is also something I feel is probably sufficient for the time being as well, but perhaps there will be a better outcome. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:13, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Marchjuly, did you miss where I wrote if this user continues? I wasn't suggesting that this should go to ANI now. I was saying that I don't see any alternative to ANI, given what the user has stated, if this continues. Meters (talk) 07:41, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Probably read over it or through it by mistake, so sorry if I implied you might be acting a bit hasty. FWIW, I've probably had as many issues as anyone with this editor; not only on Wikipedia, but also on Commons. So, I completely understand the sentiment here. Just suggesting that it might be best to not respond to everything they post on their use talk since that seems to keep the pot boiling unnecessarily. As John points out, certain types of editors end up shooting themselves in the foot as they try to step over others. If that turns out to be case in this particular case, there are enough admins besides AO watching the editor who will most likely not hesitate in stepping in and taking action. The change from indef to two-week block was based upon WP:UTRS discusisons, and I have no idea about the details of them; however, I imagine it was made quite clear that a repeat of any of the previous behavior would not be tolerated at all without even needing to go to ANI. Anyway, again sorry for misreading your OP. -- Marchjuly (talk) 08:16, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

No probs. I did point out on his page that I'm not trying to get him blocked. And I'm off his page. It's not doing any good. He'll either mend his ways or not at this point. Meters (talk) 08:30, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Justice High School

To be clear, linking to J.E.B. Stuart in the lead, where it's just giving the former name of the school and not discussing it at all, was wholly inappropriate, which is why I reverted it. We didn't link to it there when it was still the name, and there's no reason to do so now. However, it's quite appropriate to have a link to it in the section about the controversy, so your edit is fine. Just wanted to be sure we're on the same page here given your edit summary. Smartyllama (talk) 00:35, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

Schools

Could you please ensure that you are subscribed to Wikipedia:WikiProject Schools/Article alerts at AlertBot. There is a lot going on due to the serial opposer to school articles again, and I seem to be holding the fort single-handed. Remember that because of my involvement in WPSCH, I can't morally close the debates myself, I can only vote. I have recently resigned from a couple of my long-term Wikipedia activities and I don't want schools to be the next one. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:12, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

Apology/Clarification

Hello John, My sincere apologies for not meeting the verifiability requirements for Bowmanville High School. At the time of the contribution, I was newer to Wikipedia and just starting to get the hang of sources to use for Wikipedia articles. I fully understand your reversals of my contributions and express my remorse for you having to go through and reverse everything. I have noted there are a number of other schools in the same geographic area as Bowmanville HS which appear to have similar verifiability issues, as these are the articles upon which I based my BHS contributions on. What should you or I do for these articles? ChrisWilliam1995 (talk) 05:34, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

The best thing to do is improve them. I don't do much with Canadian schools (mostly US), but the first thing you should do is take a look at the guidelines for school articles. There are a few things that can be sourced to the school; updating those would always be appropriate. Examples would be: staff (altho the principal is the only staff we generally name), listing AP courses in an academic section (a secondary source would be better but probably impossible to find, so the school would suffice), any courses that are unique enough to have garnered attention in widely circulated secondary sources (such as but not limited to academic journals on education), a simple listing of athletic programs (altho again, a secondary source would be better. In the states, each state has a sanctioning body that is a NGO that administers things like the state tournaments and rulebooks. Don't know if there are similar provincial organizations or not.) Upon looking closer, I probably should have just edited your addition instead of reverting it. I apologize for that, and will undo some of my cutting and re-edit it. Probably not much longer for consciousness tonight, but I'll restore it all and make individual cuts and we can discuss it tomorrow. Again, sorry. Thanks for wanting to improve the article. I'm going to get to work on it and we'll talk sometime tomorrow (probably PM). John from Idegon (talk) 05:49, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

Ok, please take a look at my edit of your work, ChrisWilliam1995. I'll be glad to help you with further improvements, and I'm going to ping my old pal Meters, who is a fellow Canadian and may be able to help us with sources. Thanks again, and talk to you tomorrow. Got to be up for church in 6.5 hours, so goodnight. John from Idegon (talk) 06:14, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

Thank you. I will review the guidelines for school articles and contemplate it as it relates to BHS and for future reference. There is a sporting body (Lake Ontario Secondary School Assocation - LOSSA) which runs many of the sports the school participate in, but it does not appear to specifically indicate the schools who are involved in each sport. Only the school section would mention the sports they participate in - perhaps a mention that the school is a member of LOSSA?ChrisWilliam1995 (talk) 06:17, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

Good timing, I just logged on for few minutes. I've now added the article to my watchlist so I'll see any changes and contribute what I can. Meters (talk) 06:20, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

NPR Newsletter No.12 30 July 2018

Chart of the New Pages Patrol backlog for the past 6 months. ()

Hello John from Idegon, thank you for your work reviewing New Pages!

June backlog drive

Overall the June backlog drive was a success, reducing the last 3,000 or so to below 500. However, as expected, 90% of the patrolling was done by less than 10% of reviewers.
Since the drive closed, the backlog has begun to rise sharply again and is back up to nearly 1,400 already. Please help reduce this total and keep it from raising further by reviewing some articles each day.

New technology, new rules

• New features are shortly going to be added to the Special:NewPagesFeed which include a list of drafts for review, OTRS flags for COPYVIO, and more granular filter preferences. More details can be found at this page.
• Probationary permissions: Now that PERM has been configured to allow expiry dates to all minor user rights, new NPR flag holders may sometimes be limited in the first instance to 6 months during which their work will be assessed for both quality and quantity of their reviews. This will allow admins to accord the right in borderline cases rather than make a flat out rejection.
• Current reviewers who have had the flag for longer than 6 months but have not used the permissions since they were granted will have the flag removed, but may still request to have it granted again in the future, subject to the same probationary period, if they wish to become an active reviewer.

Editathons

• Editathons will continue through August. Please be gentle with new pages that obviously come from good faith participants, especially articles from developing economies and ones about female subjects. Consider using the 'move to draft' tool rather than bluntly tagging articles that may have potential but which cannot yet reside in mainspace.

The Signpost

• The next issue of the monthly magazine will be out soon. The newspaper is an excellent way to stay up to date with news and new developments between our newsletters. If you have special messages to be published, or if you would like to submit an article (one about NPR perhaps?), don't hesitate to contact the editorial team here.

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McKinley High School (Louisiana) sanctions

Wow, you guys take your high school athletics seriously. Any issues with how I added this. [3]? Meters (talk) 18:50, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

Me and the kid are at the county fair, but on a quick read, a reason might be helpful. I haven't looked at the refs, no time. John from Idegon (talk) 19:10, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

done. Thanks. Meters (talk) 03:23, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

The Signpost: 31 July 2018

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