Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Horace H. Cummings

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Sandstein 19:09, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Horace H. Cummings

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Horace H. Cummings (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Non-notable subject that fails WP:BASIC. Various WP:BEFORE source searches are only providing faint passing mentions and name checks in independent, reliable sources; no significant coverage appears to exist at all in said required sources. I did find this book content, but it was published by Improvement Era, which was owned by and an official publication of the LDS Church, and thus is a primary source. The sources in the article consist of the subject's family papers, diary and autobiography, which are also primary sources, and are not usable to establish notability. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 20:55, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 21:01, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 21:01, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Utah-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 21:01, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

• KEEP. I added material about his role in organizing the Mormon education exhibit for the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair, sourced to a recent academic book. And also checked "Horace Hall Cummings" at gScholar, where several scholarly articles make him sound like a significant player in the development of LDS and of Utah's school system. Looks notable to me.E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:15, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
• Delete unless references are added. Even one of the external links is broken. Deb (talk) 07:41, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

• WP:DELETIONISNOTCLEANUP.E.M.Gregory (talk) 08:26, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

• Comment – below is a source analysis of the source added to the article by E.M.Gregory and Google Scholar results.

• The source added to the article provides a two meager name check of the subject and then one sentence two sentences consisting of a passage what the subject wrote. This is not significant coverage at all, and does not qualify notability.

• Four sentences, including a Cummings quotation, is more than a "name check." and note that the year after leading Utah to those all of those prizes for education at the World's Fair, Cummings is appointed to head the Utah School system.E.M.Gregory (talk) 09:45, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

• I struck and modified part of the above. It's a name check and two quotations from what the subject wrote. This is 1) not significant coverage, and 2) essentially a primary source, consisting of almost all quotations except for one sentence that mentions him and other people and one sentence stating that the following content is what the subject wrote. That's it. This is not in-depth biographical coverage at all. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 09:57, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

• Google Scholar results under Horace Hall Cummings provides:

• This unreliable source that provides a name check and written quotation from the subject. Unreliable and not significant coverage.
• This source, which appears to only have a name check.
• This source, which also appears to only have a name check.

– Not seeing how the subject meets Wikipedia's notability standards per the sources that are available. Rather, it appears that the subject fails those standards. Sorry, but notability on Wikipedia is based upon our objective standards such as guideline pages, rather than opinion such as "make him sound like a significant player" in a religious organization. Furthermore, there is no presumed notability for religious subjects on Wikipedia whatsoever. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 08:53, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

• Indeed, but neither is there a presumed lack of notability "for religious subjects." More to the point, Cummings was running a state wide school system at a time when the school systems of all American states were Christian. Utah was unique in being Mormon. The other states were Protestant, and some cities and districts had worked out ways to accommodate Catholic pupils.E.M.Gregory (talk) 09:40, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

• American Universities and the Birth of Modern Mormonism, 1867–1940, Thomas W. Simpson, University of North Carolina Press, goes INDEPTH. Look at pp. 33; 70-71 (Cummings as a student blocked from going east to one of the secular universities to study; his own later opposition to such non-Mormon education and his support for sending students to narrow programs like the Teacher's College at Columbia University:) p. 92 google blocked; p. 112, delivers an "anti-intellectual harangue"; extensively cited in footnotes, including several citations to something called the "Cummings Report." As I said, he apears to have been a significant player in the formation of LDS and Utah educational system and policy in the era. And citatios by modern scholars confirms this.E.M.Gregory (talk) 09:17, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

• A JSTOR search on "Horace Hall Cummings" brings up 3 hits on his name, only one of which has been mentioned here - they all appear to be about the shaping of Mormon attitudes/policy on education. In addition, a search on "Horace H. Cummings" brings up 4 reviews of a lower school nature study textbook he wrote.E.M.Gregory (talk) 09:31, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

• Scanned one of those JSTOR articles, 2004, George H. Brimhall's Legacy of Service to Brigham Young University , I make no pretension to understanding the battles fought in fin de siecle Utah over education policy, but pp. 25 ff. take a deep dive into Cumming's dispute with George H. Brimhall, President of Brigham Young University over the direction that policy should take. Haven't tackled the Tanner Lecture that mentions him, but there is now more than enough sourcing to KEEP.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:19, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

• Keep Confirmed E.M.Gregory's sources, and the subject passes WP:GNG. The book reviews are from the same journal, so it's not an indisputable pass of WP:AUTHOR#C3, but the WP:GNG pass is sufficient to keep the article. Bakazaka (talk) 20:25, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sam Sailor 22:51, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 02:16, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

• Keep -- Mostly per E.M.Gregory but with some detail. A JSTOR search for "Horace Cummings" with NMI shows reviews not just of the one book mentioned above, but two others as well. In total there are four reviews of three books. Yes, they're all from the Journal of Education, but that's an incredibly significant Journal even now. At the turn of the 20th Century there was not the wide range of scholarly outlets that we enjoy these days so it's not reasonably a strike against Cummings that only the one journal reviewed his books. Finally, I'd like to note that the arguments propounded by sole non-nom deletion advocate Deb are universally not valid reasons for deletion. We don't delete articles because links are broken. We don't delete articles because references are missing. We delete articles whose subjects don't meet our standards of notability. This one does. 192.160.216.52 (talk) 14:07, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
  • As the sole anon voter, I guess you know how much trust others are likely to put in your expertise. Deb (talk) 14:21, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
    • As the sole !voter with no valid deletion arguments and as an admin who ought to know better than you seem to, I guess you know how much trust others are likely to put in your resort to ad IP-numerum attacks. 192.160.216.52 (talk) 17:55, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
• Keep Multiple scholarly sources deal with Cummings.John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:48, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.